Horse Antepost
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Are you all lumping on SYT tomorrow ?
5/1 is available which must be tempting for you ..
5/1 is available which must be tempting for you ..
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I'm not Australian but I am lumping on
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where is Foremajure and Tommalone ?
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Big O
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I think I will be letting the heart take control of the head this time around and having a throw at the champ.
Would be terrific for Aussie racing if he could do it, gee he'd be making a mess of the older horses that are going around down here this spring.... |
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"where is Foremajure and Tommalone ?"
The smart money got on at double figures, layed low then bet again high, that's where i am, thanks for asking though.[;)] |
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I think its pretty well known on here i lost confidence in O'brien quite sometime ago, so 5/1 seems about right, I wouldnt be putting the farm on it IMHO.
Who knows what stupid race plan O'Brien could think up for this?  |
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Aidan is one of the best trainers in the sport, force. He is just very unwelcoming when it comes to plans for his horses.
Ul with SYT, ran a cracker from his draw. |
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Well again there was a silly plan sending the other two horses out in front, and sure enough the whole plan fell down like a house of cards.
I probably wont be betting anymore on SYT apart from the ante post i already have on the BC, so good luck and good night. |
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Great minds think a like apparently.............
 Aidan O’Brien – Genius or Fool? Posted By: Scott Ferguson 03-Oct-2011 Scott Ferguson discusses the Coolmore trainer Aidan O’Brien and his mis-management of champion Australian horse So You Think There’s no denying that champion Irish trainer Aidan O’Brien is good at his trade, you only have to look at his record to recognise that. But then again, if you were looking after a never-ending production line of bluebloods bought or bred by some of the wealthiest men in Europe, wouldn’t you fancy yourself to win a few decent races? This is a guy who never has to worry about grinding out winners in the bottom tier of racing, just to put food on the table or hang onto some owners. He never has to fight against owners who want to move to a bigger stable promising fame and fortune, or don’t agree with his methods. Just imagine how long O’Brien would last if he was trainer for Nathan Tinkler and Patinack Farm? He has a bottomless pit of resources, and it matters little if one of his promising horses doesn’t quite measure up – they’ll just be lined as pacemaking fodder for the next potential superstar in the stable. It’s all about producing stallions for them – a friend of mine bought a close relation to one of their stallion prospects last year at auction, with the intention to go jumping with it and win a race at Cheltenham. Any mention of jumping on the family tree is deemed to slash millions from potential earnings in a stud career. The Coolmore production line couldn’t allow that to happen and made the syndicate an offer they couldn’t refuse, within hours of the auction. Aidan O'Brien - Not a very smart trainer O’Brien has waxed lyrical about So You Think throughout the year, possibly the best he’s ever had, nothing can keep up with him at home, what a beast of a horse etc.. But for two poor sets of tactics, he should probably be undefeated in Europe. In the Prince of Wales at Royal Ascot, he was slaughtered by Ryan Moore by a stupid pacemaker which went way too far in front, causing Moore to fire the champ up way too early in pursuit and get nabbed on the line by the ill-fated Rewilding. I travelled over to Paris for the world’s finest race, the Prix de L’Arc de Triomphe, with an Aussie flag in my backpack ready to fly it proudly when he streeted clear in the final 200m. Hell, the nude run up the straight wearing the flag as a cape was not a million to one if the dream came true. With any decent luck, I had him coming out on top after crossing to take a sit near the pace – the way he always races! The 14 draw wasn’t a concern, there wasn’t that much pace up front, and stablemate Treasure Beach crossed from 12 to take exactly that spot I’d identified on the speedmap. It wasn’t until about halfway that I realised our boy was out the back, it’s not easy working it out from the French caller going at a furious pace. And from that point, he had no hope of winning, despite a very gallant effort in the straight to pass most of the field. One of my Twitter followers from Ireland told me (after the race) that O’Brien had said during the week that the son of High Chaparral would be ridden back in the field – unfortunately the first I’d heard of it and most others probably. Had he not looked at any of his Australian runs? Never once had SYT been ridden back – he’s always near the pace, suiting his style of gradually increasing the tempo and accelerating away, rather than flying home late. He’s not that kind of horse. So after a career of running on the pace or leading, O’Brien makes the genius decision to completely change So You Think’s running style in the biggest race of his career, giving him Buckley’s chance of winning. This wasn’t a production line horse, this was our out-and-out superstar who races a particular way, no matter what the distance. What a chump…. The winner Danedream was very impressive, exploding away from the field to win by five lengths at 20/1. However, with a 40/1 pacemaker running second, you are entitled to think this one of those freak results that happens once in a blue moon. As for So You Think’s future, he’s high in the betting for QIPCO Champions Day at Ascot (Caulfield Cup Day) and the Breeders’ Cup in November. Whether he runs in either is something we’ll have to wait for the brains trust at Ballydoyle to decide. If not, a life of servicing some of the finest fillies in the business lies ahead. Not even Aidan O’Brien could stuff that part up surely… |
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So a horse fails to win at it's first attempt at 12f and is shown not to be Pegasus.
Hardly the trainer's fault is it. His record now shows >10.5f: 12/16 12f & +: 0/2 Dodgy stayer imo |
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AOB has proved himself a great trainer over a period of time but I don't think he's handled SYT particularly well, and he didn't look primed in peak condition yesterday. Treasure beach was washed out pre-race and SNA
was sweating quite a bit also. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair and its down to the poor weather they get in Ireland. |
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jar1970 = clueless. IMO
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Thanks for the counter argument Howarde
You're a real gem. |
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You might not always agree with the Aussies and they do seem like sore losers when they are beaten at sport but you have to give them credit they tell it as it is gloves and all.
I myself thought riding the horse from off the pace would give him a better chance over the extra 2 furlongs (the draw wasn't much help anyway) because I saw no evidence from his 3 previous runs of the horse ever excellerating away, was overhauled by Rewilding, hard ridden to maintain a narrow advantage over both Workforce and Snow Fairy if anything the filly might well have won with another 50 yards?. SYT stopped to a virtual walk in the crawl that was the Melbourne Cup after cruising into the lead, maybe if the horse was ridden up with the pace yesterday he might have finished 5th or 6th after seeing too much daylight?. I found the bit about Coolmore buying the horse back because it might go jumping amusing. |
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Think it's a bit early to write off SYT over 12f because he got beat in the Arc
And vastly unfair to use the Melbourne Cup over 16f where he was giving most of the field weight as credible staying form |
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unless you're fishing
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No fishing here :)
Neither of his trainers have obviously thought he was any more than a 10f specialist otherwise why would neither of them have tested it outside the Melbourne Cup or the Arc? Both races who's prestige elevates them above most others. |
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Poor ride but seriously the Aussies are so bloody bad at losing.
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SYT is a damned good consistent 125-128 horse.
Now let's move on. |
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It doesn't help when the trainer has another agenda, I suppose, when he keeps telling everyone that the horse can bake cakes as well as change a flat tire, whilst also winning from 5f to 12f. This is what makes AOB a bit of a t1t.
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The only t1ts here are the ozzy's who thought SYT was the most amazing thing since vegemite on toast. DD has it about right,damn good, consistent and no question a top class animal but a Sea tha Stars or a Frankel he clearly ain't. If anyone should be pi$$ed off it should be Coolmore, the horse is worth less than a quarter of what they paid for him. Struth!
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The point is that an exceptional horse from an exceptional trainer has become a very good horse from a very good trainer.
That's the observation i make and obviously i am not alone in that view. It has nothing to do with being a loser, sore loser, bad loser or anything else other than an observation from experience. I'm not hear to pi$$ my money away like Coolmore has, hence im moving on. |
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I think it would be fair to rate SYT to similar level as Snow Fairy if you take their last 2 runs against each other as a yardstick.
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Some good posts here.
First of all, I would have to hold my hands up about SYT and the Arc. I backed him in line with the confidence I'd shown in my posts on other threads, and have to say even though he ran a really good race, I felt the faith I'd shown was a small bit misplaced. That's not to say, he isn't as good as originally thought, but on the day he certainly wasn't as good as I said he'd be. I disagree that he's a dodgy stayer Jair. He has no problem with the distance and has run two solid races in defeat over 12f and 16f. By the way Jair there are no way WFA 12f Group Ones in the Spring in Australia and I think the only one at all is the BMW run in April. He finished fastest in yesterday's winner bar the winner so there must have been a lot more dodgy stayers who were slowing down as SYT was motoring by them! Reading the article is as Silvergreaser says - amusing! First of all, the athour cites Treasure Beach's draw in 12 as enough reason to think that SYT could have got out near the pace, yet he conviently ignores the fact that Treasure Beach finished near last. Fact is it was impossible to ride SYT any closer given the draw unless the option was taken to waste energy early on, and hope the horse's lungs would be filled off a slow pace. An unlikely scenario. Given how the race unfolded, I felt the horse was appriopiately positioned. As for this notion that O'Brien's success is out of proportion with his resources. Eh what other trainers win 15-20 Group Ones a season? O'Brien has the best resources and the best record - fairly well in line with one another. Maybe though if Aidan wins less than 20 group Ones this season, Magnier can give Nathan Tinkler a call!!! A world class trainer and a lot more gracious and humble than the Australia's best trainer. The Aussies bitterness won't change that. |
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The point is that an exceptional horse from an exceptional trainer has become a very good horse from a very good trainer.
So You Think ran a rating of 126 in the Yalumba Stakes and the Mackinnon. He has run the same figure five times in the Mooresbridge, Tatts Gold Cup, POW, Eclipse and the Irish Champion. This info is taken from the World Thoroughbred Rankings. So the horse certainly hasn't gone regressed, if anything O'Brien has made him more consistent than Cummings could. So I would rephrase to something like: A very good horse from a good trainer is still a very good horse (but more consistent) from an exceptional trainer. |
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Frankel he clearly ain't
So You Think has run in four racing jurisdictions, winning Group Ones in three of them. He's raced over distances from 6f to 16f, and has proven versatility at the top level from 1 mile up to 1m 4f. His next race is rumoured to be the BC Classic on dirt - after a career solely on the turf. Whether in the care of Cummings and O'Brien, the horse and his connections have never shyed away from a challenge. Frankel, on the other hand, has run a very uninspiring campaign this season. What Frankel is remains open to debate, but So You Think would think a lot more boxes. Who's legacy is greater is for the racing public to decide but one would hope Frankel will take on some of the challenges that So You Think has faced before he retires. There is certainly no shame in running in and losing the races SYT has run in and lost but it'll be shameful if Frankel's limits are not pushed. |
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agree with that. Very poor campaign for Frankel
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Well,
I did try and direct you towards O'Brien's tendancies and winning big all age Group 1s in October isn't generally one of them. He's as good as his dad isn't he? |
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SYT was exposed on Sunday as being no wonder horse but he's still a very tough horse who is a tough opponent
in 1 1/4m to 1 1/2m GRp 1's and always seems to give his all. It's not the horses fault Ballydoyle and the Aussies have over hyped him. He seems to take his races pretty well and despite not looking in great condition on sunday he still put up a solid effort. If the ground stays quick at Ascot he could well net another grp1 as the field doesn't look that strong. Against the likes of STS ,dancing brave,halling and Sakhee he would have had no chance. I think Frankel has an equally tough constitution but connections have taken the soft route and Frankel hasn't had the chance to show he has the same toughness as SYT. The big difference between Frankel and SYT is that Frankel has a touch of Brilliance about him which SYT doesn't have. |
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I'm happy to hold up my hands and say I was wrong as I thought the horse had a damned good chance of winning. The draw wasn't helpful as very few have won it from the top half but no excuses. To be fair to the horse there was a lot more behind than in front and he was best colt in the race. If he goes to the classic I think he has an excellent chance as I think he'll handle the dirt, they have an awesome 3 y old in Uncle Mo but he's unproven at the trip. If there's a fly in the ointment it's Havre De Grace another filly who's been beating the colts. That allowance never seems like much but if you get a decent filly it can count for a helluva lot. I'm already on from a while back so hoping they run him. I hope they do keep the horse in training next year at least it gives us plenty to talk about.
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'he's also by grass sire High Chaparral, and the easy trips he got in the Coral Eclipse and Irish Champion are light years away from the combination of factors he would experience for the first time in the Classic: traffic in a large field, a strongly-paced race, and possibly a shower of dirt in his face.'
That's an extract from the Breeders cup classic site so how about the Brits & Aussies get together & get one over on the yanks? |
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Sorry should have included New Zealand & Ireland in that statement?
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It don't think the kick back on the dirt will bother him as he's such a tough customer.
His action at times does look a bit strange and maybe he would be okay on the dirt. Anticipating whether he'd act on dirt or not is not something I'd be confident about and given that very few are fully effective on both surfaces I'd want a big price about him if he turns up. |
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You're right T a defo shot in the dark can't find any examples of High Chaparrals progeny being successful on dirt. He's got a free entry though after winning the Irish champion so they may be tempted & as the old saying goes if you ain't in........
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Its hardly been a bold campaign, winning a bunch of two bit group 1's with no competition and then losing the two biggest races of the year, not something id be particularly proud of as a trainer i would think given hes "the best horse hes ive trained".
At least Frankel's trainer picked his fights correctly. Personally id want a better result for my $30 million, but hey that's just me. I guess its lucky he aint a football coach.[;)] |
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Its hardly been a bold campaign, winning a bunch of two bit group 1's with no competition and then losing the two biggest races of the year, not something id be particularly proud of as a trainer i would think given hes "the best horse hes ive trained".
Some Joker!Are you discussing the horse's talents or the horse's campaign? If it's the latter (which one would assume to be the case after reading your first six words), why are you highlighting the fact that he lost two races? Surely a discussion about the strength of the campaign would involve the races which were targetted but the results of those races are hardly relevant. By the way, can you please reference the quote you've attributed to Aidan O'Brien: "the best horse hes ive trained". As for Frankel no offence to fans of his trainer of the horse himself, but connections avoided the Derby, avoided a step up in trip, avoided the mile group ones in France, and now look as if they will do the same thing as regards the BC Mile. It's kind of odd that you praise Henry Cecil for "picking" Frankel's fights "correctly" yet criticise Aidan O'Brien for winning "two bit Group Ones". Then again you are a weird sort of poster. |
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Dont take this as an Aussie having a sulk but having seen a lot of the horse to Alf's eye he has lost a lot of condition & also lost his amazing sprint since going from Bart to O'Brien.
Maybe its less sun, maybe its being worked harder for longer than what Bart would, but the above is definately the case. |
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He's turned into a dull one-paced grinder, which is the polar-opposite of what he's been.
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He's turned into a dull one-paced grinder, which is the polar-opposite of what he's been.
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