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14 May 11
16:22
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Date Joined:
26 Jun 07
Sussex stakes, good ground. Prices in your opinion?
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could do with 2 pacemakers really a fast starter to blast for 3 furlongs then 5 furlong sprinter to take it up then leave it to the big guns
off top of head
10/11 Frankel
5/2 Goldikova
3/1 Canford
off top of head
10/11 Frankel
5/2 Goldikova
3/1 Canford
well he would if their was just the 3.
but to have a proper spectacle would love to see a 1 mile sprint start to finish
but to have a proper spectacle would love to see a 1 mile sprint start to finish
Aye.
Personally think Canford Cliffs is the real deal. travels well, sees out the trip well, puts the race to bed in a matter of strides and saves energy by just doing enough. Very akin to Big Buck's. If there's something to aim at he'll catch them
Think as last year went on connections learned exactly how he should be ridden. Can see him going unbeaten this year
Personally think Canford Cliffs is the real deal. travels well, sees out the trip well, puts the race to bed in a matter of strides and saves energy by just doing enough. Very akin to Big Buck's. If there's something to aim at he'll catch them
Think as last year went on connections learned exactly how he should be ridden. Can see him going unbeaten this year
I think I'd be taking Canford Cliffs too, especially if he was the outsider of the 3.
Frankel would give him something to aim at and could see him running down Frankel in the last 50 yards.
Frankel would give him something to aim at and could see him running down Frankel in the last 50 yards.
He's in my TTF list and will be unbeaten for as long as he avoids Frankel,imo.
Not for me, Frankel would slap Goldikova back to next week and just hold off a fast finishing Canford.
i hope they get to race each other in the sussex ( doubt very much that the filly would come over)
i like canford lots but the 3 year old has the weight allowance which makes a huge difference.
as long as he hasn't burnt himself out by then, running like a sprinter. surely if they continue with those tactics he wont see the season thro
i like canford lots but the 3 year old has the weight allowance which makes a huge difference.
as long as he hasn't burnt himself out by then, running like a sprinter. surely if they continue with those tactics he wont see the season thro
Can't see all 3 of them meeting anywhere but the Breeders Cup, and personally wouldn't be surprised if Frankel never meets either.
brandy on the rocks that is my view. What we saw in 2000gs was special but he won't carry on doing it. I would side with Canford Cliffs just on a value point of view.
You have Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and So You Think pencilled in for the Queen Anne, but it looks like SYT will be in the Prince of Wales instead, but that would be a good contest IMO.
Frankel needs to be ridden settled for a lasting career they should step him up in trip and save his kick til late. Not much joy over a mile long term think Canford would have a great chance against him.
geoff m, not trying to score points but if this was being run next week the betting would be something like 4/7 Frankel, 7/2 Goldikova & 9/2 Canford Cliffs (around 106%), believe me 10/11 would'nt last long.
have to agree with eric on this one. think the whole obsession with him being a miler could be the ruining of frankel. can't believe that so many think that frankel should start long odds on against specialist milers canford and goldikova, personally don't think he'll stay a mile and a half in the very best company but think his best distance will be 10 furlongs.
Aha!!! the inevitable post. But will it ever happen?
First off forget Goldikova she simply isn't that good. She's a star in her own right but when you consider how close Paco Boy has come to beating her it doesn't take much imagination to work out what Canford Cliffs would do to her. In Hughsies own word Canfor Cliffs is in a different county to his stablemate.
I sincerely doubt connections will be in any hurry to be taking him on and she won't go within a mile of Frankel unless it's at the Breeders. Personally I think if Frankel keeps going the way he's going and they were set to meet excuses would be made and they'd retire her rather than see her lose badly.
Don't mean to offend anyone but this is all about Canford Cliffs V Frankel the mare doesn't come into it.
Being a huge fan of both horses despite having lost my balls when Canford was beaten in France (the swine, but boy has he made up for it), makes it easy not to be influenced by rose coloured glasses.
Like everyone I was blown away by Frankel's display in the Guineas. I had said before he was potentially the best racehorse since Sea Bird II but even I wasn't expecting what we saw.
Burt ask yourself this. Frankel was as you would expect slowing in the closing stages and the horse who followed him home was non other than Canford Cliff's much inferior stable companion, Dubai whatitsname?
No matter his name he wouldn't be anywhere near as good as Canford Cliffs and had that been him following Frankel what then. You'd have to think he'd have gotten a lot closer and perhaps even pegged him back.
I'm not saying Canford Cliffs is a better horse than Frankel but what concerns me is what I am hearing from Warren Place. Apparently they no longer try to settle Frankel at home they just let him go whatever speed he wants to and that the same tactics used in the Guineas will be the way forward for Frankel.
Perhaps Frankel is the best since the great French colt but if they are going to ride him like that against a horse like Canford Cliffs he'll have to be.
I just can't see them trying to do another 2000 guineas no matter how strong a gallop he can go. If there is one way to get him beat it's to go tearing off at a million mph and be running out of gas with a horse like CC chasing after you.
It would e far more sensible to hold him up for at least 4 or 5 furlongs then use that unbelievable mid race speed to settle matters and not run out of gas.
What goes against this rumour he will be ridden the same way again is the fact that the owner according to William Hill is keen to run him in a race he sponsors but has never won. The Juddmonte over 10 furlongs at York.
To be honest this Frankel V Canford Cliffs may never happen. Richard Hannon has also spoken about stepping Canford Cliffs up to 10 furlongs so if either he or Frankel do it makes it very easy to avoid each other.
We'd all like to see it but look at Sea the Stars. He was kept to 10 Furlongs with good reason. Rip Van Winkle was best at a mile as was Mastercraftsmen and Fame and Glory is now being spoken off as a possible Gold Cup horse. A brilliant piece of placing by his trainer and kid glove handling by a great jockey meant the horse never had a single hard race leading up to the Arc. That was probably the only time we saw the real Sea the Stars as they knew it was going to be his last race. How good he actually was is hard to say but they kept him unbeaten and his shed value soared which is what it's all about.
The difference is Frankel has a real horse to contend with if meeting Canford over 1 mile because unlike those Sea the Stars met that is without doubt his proper trip. So make no mistake Frankel has everything to lose and Canford Cliffs has everything to gain.
My guess is if Canford Cliffs wins his next couple and looks as impressive as ever where he goes Henry wont so don't hold your breath.
First off forget Goldikova she simply isn't that good. She's a star in her own right but when you consider how close Paco Boy has come to beating her it doesn't take much imagination to work out what Canford Cliffs would do to her. In Hughsies own word Canfor Cliffs is in a different county to his stablemate.
I sincerely doubt connections will be in any hurry to be taking him on and she won't go within a mile of Frankel unless it's at the Breeders. Personally I think if Frankel keeps going the way he's going and they were set to meet excuses would be made and they'd retire her rather than see her lose badly.
Don't mean to offend anyone but this is all about Canford Cliffs V Frankel the mare doesn't come into it.
Being a huge fan of both horses despite having lost my balls when Canford was beaten in France (the swine, but boy has he made up for it), makes it easy not to be influenced by rose coloured glasses.
Like everyone I was blown away by Frankel's display in the Guineas. I had said before he was potentially the best racehorse since Sea Bird II but even I wasn't expecting what we saw.
Burt ask yourself this. Frankel was as you would expect slowing in the closing stages and the horse who followed him home was non other than Canford Cliff's much inferior stable companion, Dubai whatitsname?
No matter his name he wouldn't be anywhere near as good as Canford Cliffs and had that been him following Frankel what then. You'd have to think he'd have gotten a lot closer and perhaps even pegged him back.
I'm not saying Canford Cliffs is a better horse than Frankel but what concerns me is what I am hearing from Warren Place. Apparently they no longer try to settle Frankel at home they just let him go whatever speed he wants to and that the same tactics used in the Guineas will be the way forward for Frankel.
Perhaps Frankel is the best since the great French colt but if they are going to ride him like that against a horse like Canford Cliffs he'll have to be.
I just can't see them trying to do another 2000 guineas no matter how strong a gallop he can go. If there is one way to get him beat it's to go tearing off at a million mph and be running out of gas with a horse like CC chasing after you.
It would e far more sensible to hold him up for at least 4 or 5 furlongs then use that unbelievable mid race speed to settle matters and not run out of gas.
What goes against this rumour he will be ridden the same way again is the fact that the owner according to William Hill is keen to run him in a race he sponsors but has never won. The Juddmonte over 10 furlongs at York.
To be honest this Frankel V Canford Cliffs may never happen. Richard Hannon has also spoken about stepping Canford Cliffs up to 10 furlongs so if either he or Frankel do it makes it very easy to avoid each other.
We'd all like to see it but look at Sea the Stars. He was kept to 10 Furlongs with good reason. Rip Van Winkle was best at a mile as was Mastercraftsmen and Fame and Glory is now being spoken off as a possible Gold Cup horse. A brilliant piece of placing by his trainer and kid glove handling by a great jockey meant the horse never had a single hard race leading up to the Arc. That was probably the only time we saw the real Sea the Stars as they knew it was going to be his last race. How good he actually was is hard to say but they kept him unbeaten and his shed value soared which is what it's all about.
The difference is Frankel has a real horse to contend with if meeting Canford over 1 mile because unlike those Sea the Stars met that is without doubt his proper trip. So make no mistake Frankel has everything to lose and Canford Cliffs has everything to gain.
My guess is if Canford Cliffs wins his next couple and looks as impressive as ever where he goes Henry wont so don't hold your breath.
Goldlikova - "not that good.".........
Oh no useless - only rated 132, and the other would be expected to give her weight as well.
She would be very hard to beat and both the others would have to improve on anything they've done so far to do so.
Oh no useless - only rated 132, and the other would be expected to give her weight as well.
She would be very hard to beat and both the others would have to improve on anything they've done so far to do so.
Goldikova has won 12 Group Ones - including three times at the Breeders Cup. If this is not the mark of a great horse, then I don't know what is. Her connections have never shyed away from a challenge, in fact she's beaten all milers of any substance that there's been since 2006: Darjina, Paco Boy, Henrythenavigator, Natagora, Kip Deville, Elusive Wave, Silver Frost, Gladiatorus, Delegator, Rip Van Winkle, Dick Turpin and Gio Pointi. So I would say, she is more than just not that good.
Side Glance
The only way Cecil would dodge a meeting with Canford Cliffs would be if it did'nt suit Frankel's future targets, why would he be scared of a horse who is inferior in every way. Frankel would eat him for breakfast, can't understand why there is even a debate about their relative merits but i suppose everyone's entitled to an opinion.
to say that a horse that has been top miler in europe for the last few years isn't much good, well clearly you must have high standards...
Are Goldi and Canford both being aimed at the Queen Anne?
Won't happen
Like to see Frankel step up to 10f late summer for York or Irish Champion
Like to see Frankel step up to 10f late summer for York or Irish Champion
anyone who judges the distance between goldi and paco boy as a literal reflection of the mere superiorty over him needs to be locked up.
ty.
ty.
maybe for their own protection - yes.
Timeform rate her just 133, this means that Canford Cliffs would need to run 136 to dead heat with her - a very tall order.
However Frankel is rated 142- this is a bit worrying. He may still be the best horse ever - another 4 lbs would put him past Sea Bird! He does look a bit of a monster.
Did anyone by the way see the amazing old photo of Tudor Minstrel winning his 2000 Guineas? It was supposed to be 8 lengths. you can see in the photo that it was at least 10 lengths. He ran in the 1940's and his was the last Guineas with a performance remotely like Frankel's effort. I though the Racing Post did a very clever thing putting the 2 photos alongside eachother like that. Really gave you a sense of histrory quite merited for Frankel's guineas win.
Timeform rate her just 133, this means that Canford Cliffs would need to run 136 to dead heat with her - a very tall order.
However Frankel is rated 142- this is a bit worrying. He may still be the best horse ever - another 4 lbs would put him past Sea Bird! He does look a bit of a monster.
Did anyone by the way see the amazing old photo of Tudor Minstrel winning his 2000 Guineas? It was supposed to be 8 lengths. you can see in the photo that it was at least 10 lengths. He ran in the 1940's and his was the last Guineas with a performance remotely like Frankel's effort. I though the Racing Post did a very clever thing putting the 2 photos alongside eachother like that. Really gave you a sense of histrory quite merited for Frankel's guineas win.
COT... You can't have it both ways. On one hand you say Frankel would have to improve and in your next post you bring in Timeform rating to makee a case for Goldikova beating Canford.
Must have slipped your mind that Frankel was given 132 by Timeform before he had even won the Guineas.
Forget ratings and use your imagination.
Goldikova has never beat anything of real quality or at least not without them running below par.
You quote Henrythenavigator and Natagora for starters who both run behind Paco Boy so unless you want us to believe Paco Boy was a better horse than either of them why even mention the fact they finished behind her?
You mention Elusive Wave but fail to mentionwhen she beat her 1 1/2 lengths it was at a time when Elusie Wave had lost her form completely, in between getting beaten over 6 lengths by Ghanaati and then getting stuffed by over a dozen lengths by Aqlaam. In fact she won one poxy race after that when she beat nothing.
Gladatorious was a one hit wonder, Delegator wouldn't get a mile in a bus. Sure she beat Rip Van Winkle but so did friggin Zacinto and another couple of monkees that day.
About the only times she was up against anything half decent is when she beat Paco Boy and and Makfi and neither of them proved to be Supertars far from it.
Zarkava was in a different league to her and had she been kept at a mile Goldikova wouldn't have won didly squat and that wasn't even Zarkava's best trip.
Ratings are 10 a penny when you are comparing them to horses who are overrated in the first place. That's exactly how Master Minded was rated above Denman and Kauto Star becuase Voy Por Ustedes the worst QMCC winner in years was already rated too high.
Goldikova is a very good mare who is ultra consistent but she lacks real star quality.
She will never be put up against Frankel you can bet your life on it and if they do take on Canford Cliffs she would be blown away by the Hannon monster.
Since he cam to himself and matured fully after a poor start last season, Hughsie has always ridden Canford Cliffs within whatever pace is put to him him and just picked up and gone past what's front of him.
There's a lot more in that tank if needed and should Goldikova ever cross paths with him she'll find he's a totally different ball game to anything she has tackled before. Barring Zarkava of course.
Must have slipped your mind that Frankel was given 132 by Timeform before he had even won the Guineas.
Forget ratings and use your imagination.
Goldikova has never beat anything of real quality or at least not without them running below par.
You quote Henrythenavigator and Natagora for starters who both run behind Paco Boy so unless you want us to believe Paco Boy was a better horse than either of them why even mention the fact they finished behind her?
You mention Elusive Wave but fail to mentionwhen she beat her 1 1/2 lengths it was at a time when Elusie Wave had lost her form completely, in between getting beaten over 6 lengths by Ghanaati and then getting stuffed by over a dozen lengths by Aqlaam. In fact she won one poxy race after that when she beat nothing.
Gladatorious was a one hit wonder, Delegator wouldn't get a mile in a bus. Sure she beat Rip Van Winkle but so did friggin Zacinto and another couple of monkees that day.
About the only times she was up against anything half decent is when she beat Paco Boy and and Makfi and neither of them proved to be Supertars far from it.
Zarkava was in a different league to her and had she been kept at a mile Goldikova wouldn't have won didly squat and that wasn't even Zarkava's best trip.
Ratings are 10 a penny when you are comparing them to horses who are overrated in the first place. That's exactly how Master Minded was rated above Denman and Kauto Star becuase Voy Por Ustedes the worst QMCC winner in years was already rated too high.
Goldikova is a very good mare who is ultra consistent but she lacks real star quality.
She will never be put up against Frankel you can bet your life on it and if they do take on Canford Cliffs she would be blown away by the Hannon monster.
Since he cam to himself and matured fully after a poor start last season, Hughsie has always ridden Canford Cliffs within whatever pace is put to him him and just picked up and gone past what's front of him.
There's a lot more in that tank if needed and should Goldikova ever cross paths with him she'll find he's a totally different ball game to anything she has tackled before. Barring Zarkava of course.
Rondetto Joined: 20 Jul 10
Replies: 563 15 May 11 05:12
Aha!!! the inevitable post. But will it ever happen?
First off forget Goldikova she simply isn't that good.
LOL clueless take up a new past time!
Replies: 563 15 May 11 05:12
Aha!!! the inevitable post. But will it ever happen?
First off forget Goldikova she simply isn't that good.
LOL clueless take up a new past time!
Rondetto Joined: 20 Jul 10
Replies: 563 15 May 11 05:12
Goldikova is a very good mare who is ultra consistent but she lacks real star quality.
ROFL this gets better
Replies: 563 15 May 11 05:12
Goldikova is a very good mare who is ultra consistent but she lacks real star quality.
ROFL this gets better
Rondetto Joined: 20 Jul 10
Replies: 563 17 May 11 07:48
Goldikova has never beat anything of real quality or at least not without them running below par.
if they do take on Canford Cliffs she would be blown away by the Hannon monster.
It's difficult to take people seriously who aren't consistent with their arguments. Apart from RVW, who never really went on as a 4yo, who are the "real quality" horses that Canford Cliffs has beaten?
Replies: 563 17 May 11 07:48
Goldikova has never beat anything of real quality or at least not without them running below par.
if they do take on Canford Cliffs she would be blown away by the Hannon monster.
It's difficult to take people seriously who aren't consistent with their arguments. Apart from RVW, who never really went on as a 4yo, who are the "real quality" horses that Canford Cliffs has beaten?
Im with Rondetto.
Goldikova has picked up an awe of invincibility & sequence of wins by being a very good horse but not a great.
Twice she met Zarkava(a great imo) and not just get beat but got blown away on both occassions. for those that argue 1 was over a trip 2 far for Goldi you could argue both where over a trip 2 short for Zarkava(certainly the Pouliches was but class was the winner).
Im in the Frankel (is & will prove to be a great) & would blow Goldi and Canford away .
Goldikova has picked up an awe of invincibility & sequence of wins by being a very good horse but not a great.
Twice she met Zarkava(a great imo) and not just get beat but got blown away on both occassions. for those that argue 1 was over a trip 2 far for Goldi you could argue both where over a trip 2 short for Zarkava(certainly the Pouliches was but class was the winner).
Im in the Frankel (is & will prove to be a great) & would blow Goldi and Canford away .
Some horses improve with time, other's don't. Just look at the turnaround in form between Henrythenavigator and Ravens Pass by the end of that season. Goldikova improved with age, her times back this up. There is no guarantee that Zarkava would have made the same improvement, her connections obviously had doubts that she would.
There is no way in hell that goldi will beat Canford in the queen anne,the prices will have flipped flopped before to long and Canford will go off evens or even shorter,i wont knock Goldi as she has won me more money than i would care to count but the fact is that Canford is a different class of beast all together.without doubt as big a banker as you will get all week at royal ascot
Rondetto
I quite like your post. You argue that Goldlikova hasn't beaten much and isn't really that good and then stick hard to your point in the face of some serious abuse. Good luck to you.
Looking through the form, since she stopped running into Zarkava she has won all but 13 of 16 races nearly all group 1's, usually with a dazzling turn of foot and has been champion miler for the last 3 years.
In her 3 defeats, one was when her jockey sent off like a quarter horse and she ran out of steam in a 7 furlong race, one she didn't stay 9 furlongs in a bog and the other was when she disappointed against the 2000 Guineas winner.
She has won 6 of her last 7 races (all group 1's), and has won 3 breeders cup miles, all with amazing turns of speed and the last a very easy win after being drawn out very wide and conceding ground to the colts facing her all the way.
Of course she might not be able to beat Canford Cliffs but she should certainly not be dismissed.
To be honest I am very surprised at the rating by timeform of Frankel and I am not sure his Guineas win is worth 142. You would have to give Dubawi Gold a rating of 129 or somewhere very near, or you would have to say Frankel won with a ton in hand and I'm not at all sure he did. I think a horse that clearly went at 5 furlong pace (he would have won the Palace House Stakes on his way) can have had a ton in hand at the end of a mile race myself.
I quite like your post. You argue that Goldlikova hasn't beaten much and isn't really that good and then stick hard to your point in the face of some serious abuse. Good luck to you.
Looking through the form, since she stopped running into Zarkava she has won all but 13 of 16 races nearly all group 1's, usually with a dazzling turn of foot and has been champion miler for the last 3 years.
In her 3 defeats, one was when her jockey sent off like a quarter horse and she ran out of steam in a 7 furlong race, one she didn't stay 9 furlongs in a bog and the other was when she disappointed against the 2000 Guineas winner.
She has won 6 of her last 7 races (all group 1's), and has won 3 breeders cup miles, all with amazing turns of speed and the last a very easy win after being drawn out very wide and conceding ground to the colts facing her all the way.
Of course she might not be able to beat Canford Cliffs but she should certainly not be dismissed.
To be honest I am very surprised at the rating by timeform of Frankel and I am not sure his Guineas win is worth 142. You would have to give Dubawi Gold a rating of 129 or somewhere very near, or you would have to say Frankel won with a ton in hand and I'm not at all sure he did. I think a horse that clearly went at 5 furlong pace (he would have won the Palace House Stakes on his way) can have had a ton in hand at the end of a mile race myself.
I think people are now getting carried away with Canford Cliffs. While he travelled well in the Lockinge he didn't find as much at the end of the race as you might have expected. In may ways, similar to Paco Boy. It was hardly a vintage Lockinge. Goldikova has far stronger form in the book. She was idling in front in the Queen Anne last year. I'll still be backing Goldi to beat Canford Cliffs.
I think it's a shame Frankel is being restricted to a mile. Would still love to see him run in the Derby. Connections have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
I think it's a shame Frankel is being restricted to a mile. Would still love to see him run in the Derby. Connections have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
the form man writes:
There is no way in hell that goldi will beat Canford in the queen anne,the prices will have flipped flopped before to long and Canford will go off evens or even shorter,i wont knock Goldi as she has won me more money than i would care to count but the fact is that Canford is a different class of beast all together.without doubt as big a banker as you will get all week at royal ascot
deary me wheres the head in hands man when you need one. you claim to have won more than you can count on goldikova yet you still don't seem to appreciate how good she is.. all makes sense now..
agree with johnnyrant. have a look at the lockinge from last year, paco boys win was strikingly similar to canford cliffs. I don't think he finds that much off the bridle either, but then again horses that travel that well rarely do. of course with his cruising speed he'll be very dangerous at the top level but to say that goldikova isn't in the same league as him is clearly preposterous
There is no way in hell that goldi will beat Canford in the queen anne,the prices will have flipped flopped before to long and Canford will go off evens or even shorter,i wont knock Goldi as she has won me more money than i would care to count but the fact is that Canford is a different class of beast all together.without doubt as big a banker as you will get all week at royal ascot
deary me wheres the head in hands man when you need one. you claim to have won more than you can count on goldikova yet you still don't seem to appreciate how good she is.. all makes sense now..
agree with johnnyrant. have a look at the lockinge from last year, paco boys win was strikingly similar to canford cliffs. I don't think he finds that much off the bridle either, but then again horses that travel that well rarely do. of course with his cruising speed he'll be very dangerous at the top level but to say that goldikova isn't in the same league as him is clearly preposterous
i've just heard that freddie head has vacated his training premises and that rondetto has taken over, as he clearly knows a lot more about horses
To suggest Canford Cliffs doesnt have a turn of foot is lunacy. Watch him pick up Rip Van Winkle last yr, or how he quickened clear in the Coventry despite pulling hard throughout the race as a 2yo. The horse has a great turn of foot!!!
mythical prince
'deary me wheres the head in hands man when you need one. you claim to have won more than you can count on goldikova yet you still don't seem to appreciate how good she is.. all makes sense now'
i dont remember saying that goldi was not all that in my post d1ck brain,obviously she is and exceptional mare,the plain fact that i was making is that Canford is an exceptional Colt and simpley better than her.a point which will be proven next month and and as for Canford being a bridle horse what a muppet.
Hannon-'he is the best horse i have trained in my 40 years work,
Hughes-'he is the best horse i have ever ridden and the best horse i will ever ride'
clearly they dont think he is a bridle horse with no speed
'deary me wheres the head in hands man when you need one. you claim to have won more than you can count on goldikova yet you still don't seem to appreciate how good she is.. all makes sense now'
i dont remember saying that goldi was not all that in my post d1ck brain,obviously she is and exceptional mare,the plain fact that i was making is that Canford is an exceptional Colt and simpley better than her.a point which will be proven next month and and as for Canford being a bridle horse
what a muppet.Hannon-'he is the best horse i have trained in my 40 years work,
Hughes-'he is the best horse i have ever ridden and the best horse i will ever ride'
clearly they dont think he is a bridle horse with no speed
Why do these threads always degenerate into slanging matches? Surely we can agree that all 3 mentioned in the thread are phenomenal racehorses and have proved it on countless occassions.
Calling any of them over-rated or not that good is completely ridiculous.
The op asked what prices we would put up if the three were to meet in the Sussex Stakes on good ground. FWIW mine would be:
Frankel 4-6
Canford Cliffs 7-4
Goldikova 5-2
I love all three brilliant horses. Frankel is a beast but TQ would have to get his fractions exactly right against this quality opposition. Canford Cliffs is still on the upgrade imo and might present the biggest danger. Goldikova, wonderful mare that she is, is probably not going to improve on what she has already done but would go down fighting and give them both one hell of a race.
That's if it happens of course............
Calling any of them over-rated or not that good is completely ridiculous.
The op asked what prices we would put up if the three were to meet in the Sussex Stakes on good ground. FWIW mine would be:
Frankel 4-6
Canford Cliffs 7-4
Goldikova 5-2
I love all three brilliant horses. Frankel is a beast but TQ would have to get his fractions exactly right against this quality opposition. Canford Cliffs is still on the upgrade imo and might present the biggest danger. Goldikova, wonderful mare that she is, is probably not going to improve on what she has already done but would go down fighting and give them both one hell of a race.
That's if it happens of course............
,i wont knock Goldi as she has won me more money than i would care to count but the fact is that Canford is a different class of beast all together.
hmmm why do people always choose to lie on a forum? I never get it, given that you remain anomoynous, and we are essentially all strangers to each other.
somehow you claim to have won loads on goldikova, more than you can count, (which admittedly given your general level of intelligence could be a fairly low figure) and yet you are certain that she's not even in the same league as canford cliffs. why don't you come clean and admit what we already know, in that you've done your bollox laying goldie in the past but hope that canford will turn the tide
as for hughsey bigging up canford cliffs, have you ever heard him playing a horse down? I haven't.
I wouldn't be surprised if canford cliffs turned over goldikova at ascot, or vice versa. but to say that she's not in the same league as him is clearly ridiculous.
hmmm why do people always choose to lie on a forum? I never get it, given that you remain anomoynous, and we are essentially all strangers to each other.
somehow you claim to have won loads on goldikova, more than you can count, (which admittedly given your general level of intelligence could be a fairly low figure
) and yet you are certain that she's not even in the same league as canford cliffs. why don't you come clean and admit what we already know, in that you've done your bollox laying goldie in the past but hope that canford will turn the tide as for hughsey bigging up canford cliffs, have you ever heard him playing a horse down? I haven't.
I wouldn't be surprised if canford cliffs turned over goldikova at ascot, or vice versa. but to say that she's not in the same league as him is clearly ridiculous.
'I wouldn't be surprised if canford cliffs turned over goldikova at ascot, or vice versa'
thats what i call a lack of knowledge statement,whereas you clearly admit that you have no idea who will come out ontop next month and i am clearly stating that there is no way Goldi can beat Canford in the queen anna,one of us seem to be able to read the form very clearly and the other (thats you by the way[smiley:crazy]) is going to have to wait till after the race to to understand the difference between a professional gambler and some fella who works a 9-5 and plays at this game for fun with his pocket change (thats you again by the way)
thats what i call a lack of knowledge statement,whereas you clearly admit that you have no idea who will come out ontop next month and i am clearly stating that there is no way Goldi can beat Canford in the queen anna,one of us seem to be able to read the form very clearly and the other (thats you by the way[smiley:crazy]) is going to have to wait till after the race to to understand the difference between a professional gambler and some fella who works a 9-5 and plays at this game for fun with his pocket change (thats you again by the way)
well you sound like the sort of professional gambler who lumps on any horse in-running that's travelling well on the bridle, only to do your bollox when they find nothing. either that or you rip your beloved "form" book up as soon as you hear some trainer or jockey go on about "the best horse i've ever trained/ridden" and hang on to their every word.
judging by the guff you are coming out with to be honest I find it very hard to believe you are a professional gambler. "I am clearly stating that there is no way goldi can beat canford in the queen anna (it's the queen anne by the way)
if that's the case i'm assuming you'd back canford to beat her in a match bet at any odds down to 1.01. quite frankly sir, you are an idiot.
and as for canford being a beast, what does that make frankel, a super beast?
judging by the guff you are coming out with to be honest I find it very hard to believe you are a professional gambler. "I am clearly stating that there is no way goldi can beat canford in the queen anna (it's the queen anne by the way)
if that's the case i'm assuming you'd back canford to beat her in a match bet at any odds down to 1.01. quite frankly sir, you are an idiot.
and as for canford being a beast, what does that make frankel, a super beast?
and may i enquire, what reading of the form book gives canford cliffs the clear beating of goldikova? unlike you I don't deal in absolutes. maybe that's why we have things called "odds"... perhaps you could tell me who is going to win the champions league final, as i'm pretty convinced that barcelona are the better team, and to use your twisted logic they'll beat man united 100 times out of 100.
good luck with your punting sir,if i'm ever stuck for a few quid i shall come looking for a tip or 2 from the mythical master[;)]
IMO
Canford Cliffs did what was asked of him well enough on Saturday. He was having his first run of the season against horses who have had the benefit of a run and he never looked like getting beaten. Let us not forget it took CC a couple of runs last year to reach his peak and he was excellent in doing so. He was beaten in the Greenham when going from the front and arguably drawn on the wrong side of the track in the Guineas, finished well and no disgrace in losing to the horses in front, Makfi himself lowering the colours of Goldikova later in the season
He strikes me as a horse who has absolutely bags of speed who can lay up with the best of them and kick in when needing to. Also he seems to do just enough to win in his races.
I think as last season went on Hughes learnt exactly how to ride him. As long as there's something to aim at in front, he has every chance of getting there. Frankel might be a different proposition, but i'd fancy him to beat Goldikova
Canford Cliffs did what was asked of him well enough on Saturday. He was having his first run of the season against horses who have had the benefit of a run and he never looked like getting beaten. Let us not forget it took CC a couple of runs last year to reach his peak and he was excellent in doing so. He was beaten in the Greenham when going from the front and arguably drawn on the wrong side of the track in the Guineas, finished well and no disgrace in losing to the horses in front, Makfi himself lowering the colours of Goldikova later in the season
He strikes me as a horse who has absolutely bags of speed who can lay up with the best of them and kick in when needing to. Also he seems to do just enough to win in his races.
I think as last season went on Hughes learnt exactly how to ride him. As long as there's something to aim at in front, he has every chance of getting there. Frankel might be a different proposition, but i'd fancy him to beat Goldikova
As long as he doesn't go the same way as Dick Turpin appears to after his debut this year, what a regression that was.
tbh I think canford will beat the filly at ascot, i'm just not as inclined to dogmatism as some seem to be on here.
that will set up a mega-clash with frankel at goodwood where i think the hannon horse will meet his waterloo.
that will set up a mega-clash with frankel at goodwood where i think the hannon horse will meet his waterloo.
She's a mare these days myth [;)]
Whatever happens before then Canford Cliffs will be second favourite to Frankel (assuming Frankel wins the SJP)
I'll be taking Frankel on largely in the belief that he surely can't put in another performance like he did in the Guineas, if he can, he's exceptional
Personally, I think Canford Cliffs is the real deal. It's an exciting time for milers
Whatever happens before then Canford Cliffs will be second favourite to Frankel (assuming Frankel wins the SJP)
I'll be taking Frankel on largely in the belief that he surely can't put in another performance like he did in the Guineas, if he can, he's exceptional
Personally, I think Canford Cliffs is the real deal. It's an exciting time for milers
he is exceptional fft.
canford cliffs is a very good horse indeed but i'll be surprised if the cecil monster doesn't have the legs of him.
canford cliffs is a very good horse indeed but i'll be surprised if the cecil monster doesn't have the legs of him.
You have to stand up and be counted at this game and I've said my bit regarding Goldikova. Of course if and when she does meet Canford Cliffs it will be "She's not as young as she used to be"
To be honest I'm a bit peeved at the emergence of Frankel. I really thought this would be Canford Cliffs year as I rated him as one of the best miles I've seen in the last decade.
But as I say there's no sense in kidding yourself Frankel is a one in a lifetime horse unless your old enough to remember Secretariat and Sea Bird II.
As long as they don't go running him into the ground from flag fall I can't see how Canford Cliffs can possibly give him weight when he'd be lucky to get within earshot of him at levels.
Actually a much better contest would be Frankel V Overdose over 5-6 furlongs. Of course that's comic book stuff and it will never happen but what a race that would be.[;)]
To be honest I'm a bit peeved at the emergence of Frankel. I really thought this would be Canford Cliffs year as I rated him as one of the best miles I've seen in the last decade.
But as I say there's no sense in kidding yourself Frankel is a one in a lifetime horse unless your old enough to remember Secretariat and Sea Bird II.
As long as they don't go running him into the ground from flag fall I can't see how Canford Cliffs can possibly give him weight when he'd be lucky to get within earshot of him at levels.
Actually a much better contest would be Frankel V Overdose over 5-6 furlongs. Of course that's comic book stuff and it will never happen but what a race that would be.[;)]
Rondetto I really like that last post - you are a romantic and a dreamer and you clearly love horse racing very much.
I think the jury is still out in respect to frankel. Unless he learns to settle a bit better, or unless the 2000 Guineas was a one offtactic for the occasion, he is not going to last long. If he tried to make the running at sub 5 furlong pace again, I think both Goldy and Canford Cliffs might beta him; but only if the jockeys ignored frankel and ran the race to suit theor own horses ensuring they ran an even pace. Richard Hughes would need to be brave enough to let Frankel go 20 lengths clear - he would have to come back in the last furlong.
However, if Frankel settles and uses his pace at the end of his races he may well be worth mentioning in the same breath as Tudor Minstrel and Brigadier Gerard the two greatest milers ever.
I think the jury is still out in respect to frankel. Unless he learns to settle a bit better, or unless the 2000 Guineas was a one offtactic for the occasion, he is not going to last long. If he tried to make the running at sub 5 furlong pace again, I think both Goldy and Canford Cliffs might beta him; but only if the jockeys ignored frankel and ran the race to suit theor own horses ensuring they ran an even pace. Richard Hughes would need to be brave enough to let Frankel go 20 lengths clear - he would have to come back in the last furlong.
However, if Frankel settles and uses his pace at the end of his races he may well be worth mentioning in the same breath as Tudor Minstrel and Brigadier Gerard the two greatest milers ever.
Doubt all 3 will ever meet. They will want to retire Frankel unbeaten and I can see him running maybe only 3 more times (SJPS, Goodwood or York, QEII). If the Juddmonte International is one of his targets then he won't run in the Sussex (too near each other) so QEII will be the only chance. Goldikova won't come for the Sussex or QEII - she'll never race Frankel.
Maybe you are right. However my guess is that Henry will, after Ascot go to the Sussex Stakes and then to york.
If he wins the international there will be a number of interesting possibilities. he could still go for the QE11 of course ot he could start looking hard at something like the irish champion Stakes and then either the Champion Stakes or the Arc.
If my guess is right he could meet Canford Cliffs at Goodwood and maybe both of the other two at Ascot for the tremendous clash of the three greats.
IU am pretty sure frankel will meet Canofrd Cliffs at some point. Goldlikova is a 6yo now - she might just be past it - time will tell.
If he wins the international there will be a number of interesting possibilities. he could still go for the QE11 of course ot he could start looking hard at something like the irish champion Stakes and then either the Champion Stakes or the Arc.
If my guess is right he could meet Canford Cliffs at Goodwood and maybe both of the other two at Ascot for the tremendous clash of the three greats.
IU am pretty sure frankel will meet Canofrd Cliffs at some point. Goldlikova is a 6yo now - she might just be past it - time will tell.
Its all a matter of opinion at this stage
I can't believe anyone who states that the future outcome of a hypothetical race is a certainty can possibly be a professional gambler, if the definition of a pg is somone who makes their living at the game.
Its just plain stupid.
I can't believe anyone who states that the future outcome of a hypothetical race is a certainty can possibly be a professional gambler, if the definition of a pg is somone who makes their living at the game.
Its just plain stupid.
Goldikova won yet again retains he ability and is clearly not past it.
However looking around in general the talk seem to be Frankel V Casnford Cliffs with no one really taking Goldikova that seriously.
I also noticed the betting for the Goldikova V Canford Cliffs has gone topsy turvy which comes a s no surprise' after I said she wasn't that good
I could be wrong here but I don't think she will turn up and could be the lay of the year.
There comes a point where it becomes illogical to run horses and risk tarnishing their reputations. It certainly wouldn't increase her value if she were to get well beaten by the likes of Canford Cliffs whereas being beaten by Frankel would be much less damaging.
Freddy Head said there's an 80% chance she will run which you can bet means he did not have the owners blessing when asked. Up to him he'd run her but the owners will be counting up the possible costs long term. I think it will be a hard sell for Freddy Head to convince them to go.
So laying her could be the way to go because even if she does turn up she'll be hard pushed to win.
However looking around in general the talk seem to be Frankel V Casnford Cliffs with no one really taking Goldikova that seriously.
I also noticed the betting for the Goldikova V Canford Cliffs has gone topsy turvy which comes a s no surprise' after I said she wasn't that good
I could be wrong here but I don't think she will turn up and could be the lay of the year.
There comes a point where it becomes illogical to run horses and risk tarnishing their reputations. It certainly wouldn't increase her value if she were to get well beaten by the likes of Canford Cliffs whereas being beaten by Frankel would be much less damaging.
Freddy Head said there's an 80% chance she will run which you can bet means he did not have the owners blessing when asked. Up to him he'd run her but the owners will be counting up the possible costs long term. I think it will be a hard sell for Freddy Head to convince them to go.
So laying her could be the way to go because even if she does turn up she'll be hard pushed to win.
When Goldikova and Canford cliffs run at Ascot. I think its worth bearing in mind that if they go a slow
pace , which they often do in this race, Goldikova has the advantage of being positioned closer to the front.
Hughes could get into a pickle behind. Hannons team could negate this by running a pacemaker , AOB would
for sure. Also Head is a better Trainer than hannon and will have this horse at its peak. Hannon may not
and could run poorly for no reason (see Dick Turpin and many others). Though it has to be said that since
Hannons son has taken a prominent role the horses are more consistent than they used to be.
If Canford Cliffs is at his peak I think he'll beat the great Goldikova. If hes not at his peak Goldikova
will win as she's been doing for years.
pace , which they often do in this race, Goldikova has the advantage of being positioned closer to the front.
Hughes could get into a pickle behind. Hannons team could negate this by running a pacemaker , AOB would
for sure. Also Head is a better Trainer than hannon and will have this horse at its peak. Hannon may not
and could run poorly for no reason (see Dick Turpin and many others). Though it has to be said that since
Hannons son has taken a prominent role the horses are more consistent than they used to be.
If Canford Cliffs is at his peak I think he'll beat the great Goldikova. If hes not at his peak Goldikova
will win as she's been doing for years.
People seem to have agreed the general point that Canford Cliffs has a better turn of foot than Goldlikova.
I tend to the other view. If she has Canford Cliffs a length in front of her at the furlong pole she will swamp him for speed. She has as much foot as anything I can easilt recall, look at the last 3 breeders cuops for evidence. When they go a slow pace she can stalk, if they go quick and they can hold her up she is electric.
It may be that giving an on form Goldlkova 3 lbs on fast going and off a strong pace is impossible (maybe aside from Frankel).
I still think of they trun up she should be favourite to beat the Hannon hose, good though he certainly is.
I tend to the other view. If she has Canford Cliffs a length in front of her at the furlong pole she will swamp him for speed. She has as much foot as anything I can easilt recall, look at the last 3 breeders cuops for evidence. When they go a slow pace she can stalk, if they go quick and they can hold her up she is electric.
It may be that giving an on form Goldlkova 3 lbs on fast going and off a strong pace is impossible (maybe aside from Frankel).
I still think of they trun up she should be favourite to beat the Hannon hose, good though he certainly is.
i whole heartedly expect her to beat canford. she can match any horse for speed. as i say COT, if theyre a furlong out and he is a length, she WILL get to him. she'll get to frankel too imo.
tactic will be the important factor in the queen anne. she would be vulnerable if she went for home as early as she did last yr even tho i think she had plenty up her sleeve RE paco boy, i think is prob fair to say CC is a better horse. if it was in america, i would not give it a second thought, i would fully expect her tp beat canford and frankel, her latest win across the atlantic was absolutely brilliant and made the others look like they were standing still. an outstanding mere, absolutely brilliant. still think canford and frankel have it to prove against her.
tactic will be the important factor in the queen anne. she would be vulnerable if she went for home as early as she did last yr even tho i think she had plenty up her sleeve RE paco boy, i think is prob fair to say CC is a better horse. if it was in america, i would not give it a second thought, i would fully expect her tp beat canford and frankel, her latest win across the atlantic was absolutely brilliant and made the others look like they were standing still. an outstanding mere, absolutely brilliant. still think canford and frankel have it to prove against her.
ron
when you say value. i take it you mean her stud value?
it wouldn't make any difference if she never won another race. her value has long been established now.
for a colt its different. a poor season could see his value affected but not with a multiple group1 winning filly
when you say value. i take it you mean her stud value?
it wouldn't make any difference if she never won another race. her value has long been established now.
for a colt its different. a poor season could see his value affected but not with a multiple group1 winning filly
I trust those who seem to think Goldikova has the beating of Canford will be backing there words up with there wallets......
as for the tactics,they will be exactly the same as all Goldi's runs in europe,she will sit handy just off the leaders and kick for home,at this point Canford will be cantering in behind her,pushed out to get upsides her with ease and pushed out again hands and heels to go past her for a comfortable success and he will be heavily backed to do so,i would expet him to go off a shade of odds on
as for the tactics,they will be exactly the same as all Goldi's runs in europe,she will sit handy just off the leaders and kick for home,at this point Canford will be cantering in behind her,pushed out to get upsides her with ease and pushed out again hands and heels to go past her for a comfortable success and he will be heavily backed to do so,i would expet him to go off a shade of odds on
if she runs her best race Canford Cliffs would need to run a rating of 136 to dead heat. He is not that good.
Goldlikov'a tactics are dictated by the pace of the race. Her cruising speed is what dictates the tactics. if the pace is very strong she can be held up. if it is slow she can sit nearer to the pace or make the running and then quicken away.
Canford Cliffs need to be held up. being held up at the back in a slowly run race is a huge problem. You have to try to quicken past quickening hoses and also run into traffic problems.
Goldlikova has the best form, she is due to (quite unfairly really) get 3lbs of Canford Cliffs, and far less can go wrong for her.
of course she might not run to her best, and Canford Cliffs may beat her. However she should be favourite.
"I trust...backing their words up with their wallets" - indeed.
I trust the formman will mind his own business.
Goldlikov'a tactics are dictated by the pace of the race. Her cruising speed is what dictates the tactics. if the pace is very strong she can be held up. if it is slow she can sit nearer to the pace or make the running and then quicken away.
Canford Cliffs need to be held up. being held up at the back in a slowly run race is a huge problem. You have to try to quicken past quickening hoses and also run into traffic problems.
Goldlikova has the best form, she is due to (quite unfairly really) get 3lbs of Canford Cliffs, and far less can go wrong for her.
of course she might not run to her best, and Canford Cliffs may beat her. However she should be favourite.
"I trust...backing their words up with their wallets" - indeed.
I trust the formman will mind his own business.
there is no way in hell that you can use the fact that she might not run to her best as an excuse before or after she is beaten,she is just about the most consistent horse i have ever seen and has only been out of the first 3 once in 22 starts,she WILL run her true race,it is hard for me to understand why some people cant see just how good Canford is and i look forward to him proving his doubters wrong next month
I fear that the difference between them may be that while one is ridden by an outstanding world class jockey who very rarely makes a mistake, the other is ridden by a show boating buffoon.
JMO but this is how I see things going: Goldi & CC will meet in the Queen Anne, I can't make a decision who I fancy. If I had to have a bet it would be on CC, but I wouldn't be that happy about it. Canford will meet Frankel in the Sussex Stakes, and I'd be on Frankel only cos 3yos have a great record in that race. I don't think Goldikova's stud value can be diminished now honestly. She's won 13 group 1s. 13!!!. Seriously I don't think that breeders are gonna be reluctant to have her covered. Also there's no chance she'll go for the QEII, it's too close to the Prix Foret, which is here prep for the BC
dtamutants
According to the Racing post last week, Henry cecil has set his mind away from taking Frankel to the Sussex Stakes. I would be very cautious about backing your prediction of a meeting there with hard cash, unless you want ti line the pockets of the layers. Henry Cecil seldom changes his mind!
According to the Racing post last week, Henry cecil has set his mind away from taking Frankel to the Sussex Stakes. I would be very cautious about backing your prediction of a meeting there with hard cash, unless you want ti line the pockets of the layers. Henry Cecil seldom changes his mind!
Canford gives Goldikova a slapping, bring on Frankel 
Formman spot on there ,well done.
After yesterday i would say CC is the best miler around.
After yesterday i would say CC is the best miler around.
Canford has enough raw pace to travel with anything, he'd be with Frankel every step of the way
No chance of CC being able to Frankel 8lbs(WFA), come to that no chance of him beating him of levels. Frankel's in a different league as i said given a more sensible ride won't even be a race.
Fairy mufflers if that's your opinion.
Personally think Canford is the best horse in the world and as long as he keeps getting underestimated i'm happy
Personally think Canford is the best horse in the world and as long as he keeps getting underestimated i'm happy
Canford is a very very good horse, one of the best milers in recent years but Frankel was'nt seen to the best effect on Tuesday due to TQ panicking, not many horses in can run full throttle for nearly 5 furlongs but he just about managed it. Don't think CC will be able to go with him when Queally tells him to go (hopefully about 3 out), anyway all opinions.
Noone knows the bottom of Canford, he is only doing what he needs to, bit like Kinnane and STS.
It will be interesting to see if they are prepared to hold Frankel up in last place at Goodwood against Canford Cliffs, et al.
Would take a lot of confidence from the under fire pilot but if Frankel were to stalk Canford until inside the 3f pole and then get first run on him there I really cannot see CC being able to respond.
Would they have the nerve to do it though?
Would take a lot of confidence from the under fire pilot but if Frankel were to stalk Canford until inside the 3f pole and then get first run on him there I really cannot see CC being able to respond.
Would they have the nerve to do it though?
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