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To keep with the theme of our Frankel thread, let's forget all the trashing and pocket talking. Let us not mention the fact that she's a better horse than the wonderful Zarkava. Let us instead concentrate on the probable final season of one of the greatest horses to have ever graces a course, or should that be more than one course. She has run and won big races in three different countries, over different tracks and with sometimes a different race tactic. She quickens up as quick as you'd like, and can be ridden with restraint, up with the pace, at the front and then pulled back in to quicken up again. Everything about the horse has been just right as was the case with Sea the Stars, the great handling of trainer and jockey, the composure of the horse and the wonderful silks. They haven't even shirked a challenge when they don't get the perfect ground. She is the ultimate race horse, and 6 years old she's still going to be gunning for the big races. This is going to be her final year of walking up the red carpet, before retiring to stardom. My favourite flat horse.
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One could say that STS never raced anything as good as Goldikova, Zarkava did and won handily, we know she was temperamental, but who is to say she definitely couldn't have travelled, Its hardly her fault she lived near Longchamp is it. She won the Arc beating all the best 1m4f colts in Europe, she beat what subsequently turned out to be the best miling filly in Europe twice, what more could she have done. Graeme, I can see you value longevity, but what about versatility..., isn't that the true hallmark of greatness, what puts Kauto above Denman for example, or STS himself above say pure milers like Canford or 1m4f horses like Workforce. If you look at the bare form of what STS was doing, apart from RVW, he wasn't beating anything special, but if you add in the fact he remained unbeaten and won over multiple trips, that is what cements his greatness imo. I think there is a certain sentimentality attached to Goldikova because of how long she has been around, but the facts are she is a pure miler, doesn't run in all Europe's top mile races and is beatable over a mile as we have seen when circumstances aren't favourable.
I'll try and reply to the points i can, Neill. I don't think it's accurate to say Sea the stars never raced anything as good as Goldikova or Zarakava. From recollection i recall him beating Delegator, Mastercrafstsman, Rip Van Winkle, Conduit and Twice Over amongst others. Indeed i think he beat the same horse to in to first place to win the Arc that Zarkava did. I wouldn't reach much in to Zarkava beating Goldikova over 10.5f, despite her being the better 3y/o. It appears we both have credible angles on the word versatility which i can't argue with, you use it in reference to the distances she traveled, and i use it to criticise the fact she never took in more courses and countries, so i'll leave that there. I have to refer back to you criticisng what STS ran against. If we look back at horses careers in heindsight, we will find that many good or great horses never 'beat much' as some put it, because what they beat never gained high rating. Horses like 'Halfway to heaven' and 'It's gino' were placed in her biggest wins. So we can pick holes in anything we want really.
^^^^^^^They are all fair points Graeme, I do rate Goldikova v.highly also and would consider her a great, just not at the expense of Zarkava.
makfi beat her in a canter if we're looking at it that way, how far would he have beat zarkava?
doesnt work that way unfortunately.
doesnt work that way unfortunately.
what sts did is highly unlikely to be replicated within our lifetimes!! machine, impossible to say how good he is and how high his mark could have gone. he needed better horses to race in order to show it.
Agree STS a true champ - unlikely to see a better horse for many years. There have been countless flashy Arc winners but what Oxx's colt did was astounding. The Guineas, The Derby, a Group 1 win every month from May to October, all but one overseas, his last 4 open to all-comers. Simply astonishing...
Graeme83 20 Apr 11 13:38
I'll try and reply to the points i can, Neill. I don't think it's accurate to say Sea the stars never raced anything as good as Goldikova or Zarakava. From recollection i recall him beating Delegator, Mastercrafstsman, Rip Van Winkle, Conduit and Twice Over.
None of these runners were anything like as good as either Goldikova or the mighty Zarkava,but its good we all see things differently.The fillies would beat that motley crew any-day of the week on any course,only one mind remains unbeaten!
I'll try and reply to the points i can, Neill. I don't think it's accurate to say Sea the stars never raced anything as good as Goldikova or Zarakava. From recollection i recall him beating Delegator, Mastercrafstsman, Rip Van Winkle, Conduit and Twice Over.
None of these runners were anything like as good as either Goldikova or the mighty Zarkava,but its good we all see things differently.The fillies would beat that motley crew any-day of the week on any course,only one mind remains unbeaten!
Prima Donna i should have made my post a bit clearer. I meant i disagreed that Sea the Stars hadn't raced horses as good as the ones Goldikova and Zarkava beat. I slightly misinterpreted Neils post. I guess people will just have to decide whether or not RVW was as able an opponent as Goldikova. I think STS had a tougher passage to the Arc than Zarkava. STS had to beat the colts. Zarkava had a plan mapped out for the Arc with races that they knew wouldn't punish her too much. I sure don't think STS met and Zarkana, and vice versa.
* I sure don't think STS met a Zarkava is what i meant to type there ^^^
Fair enough Graeme, nice to look back on these horses, I'm bang in the middle of prep for a bastard of a set of exams and these threads cheer me up no end, Its actually nearly upsetting how I could reel of the string of races STS won and evaluate the merit of the horses he beat from nearly two years ago, but if you asked me to recount last weeks info I learned on Liquidator's duties I'd draw a blank. Oh to be interested in boring things........
yeah one remains unbeaten but she only ever won in france, right handed courses, and only ever raced once away from longchamp. that counts severly against her when measuring greatness (imo)
she never faced different tests like sts, travel, straight mile, diff courses, she had it easy in comparison to sts in that respect.
i too agree sts had a worse trip in the arc(not that it means anything) but only for his amazing speed he was able to switch out off the rail as the pacemakes came back thru the field, that the point it could have gone t!ts up for any other horse, only a freak could have made up the ground from that point, he goes from having to make up 7L to being in the lead in a matter of strides after that punishing season...astonishing and imo zarkava couldnt have done that(imo).
only once faced the opposite so she wasnt exactly there for all comers unlike sea the stars who appeared in the juddmonte, eclipse etc.... to anyone that wanted to show up. he had a far more gruling campagin.
she was all out to beat dar re mi and i think coming down the outside seems to be the thing to do a la dacing brave, her arc, and even nijinsky even tho he was beaten, youmzain in sts arc, i think a case could be made for that theory.
its just waffle at the end of the day as we'll never know the answer but i gotta fight the champs corner
i reckon he'd have picked her up and carried her myself, would even hesitate backing him against her, no doubt he'd be fav looking back at both their carrers, there far more substances to his form imo and he won the far more difficult races open to a wider range of opposition and she had fillies to beat bar the arc of course.
no contest sts everytime. he'd beat her. your turn
she never faced different tests like sts, travel, straight mile, diff courses, she had it easy in comparison to sts in that respect.
i too agree sts had a worse trip in the arc(not that it means anything) but only for his amazing speed he was able to switch out off the rail as the pacemakes came back thru the field, that the point it could have gone t!ts up for any other horse, only a freak could have made up the ground from that point, he goes from having to make up 7L to being in the lead in a matter of strides after that punishing season...astonishing and imo zarkava couldnt have done that(imo).
only once faced the opposite so she wasnt exactly there for all comers unlike sea the stars who appeared in the juddmonte, eclipse etc.... to anyone that wanted to show up. he had a far more gruling campagin.
she was all out to beat dar re mi and i think coming down the outside seems to be the thing to do a la dacing brave, her arc, and even nijinsky even tho he was beaten, youmzain in sts arc, i think a case could be made for that theory.
its just waffle at the end of the day as we'll never know the answer but i gotta fight the champs corner
i reckon he'd have picked her up and carried her myself, would even hesitate backing him against her, no doubt he'd be fav looking back at both their carrers, there far more substances to his form imo and he won the far more difficult races open to a wider range of opposition and she had fillies to beat bar the arc of course.
no contest sts everytime. he'd beat her. your turn
Trashing and pocket talking Graeme83. ... you had several digs mr high and mighty. Are you going to ignore your wrong-doings and reside on a thread where you cant get anything wrong re the future as it is about the past?
no contest sts everytime. he'd beat her. your turn.
Ok ilikewavingatbuses,I firmly believe that given both their running styles STS would be very vulnerable to Zarkava in a finish.I'm not taking anything from STS but imo he never once faced any horse remotely as good as her,you think he'd pick her up and carry her well for me he wouldn't get close to try.Do you also think that if he had been left at the start of his races he would be then able to do what she did win going away from the others completely out classing the field?
Ok ilikewavingatbuses,I firmly believe that given both their running styles STS would be very vulnerable to Zarkava in a finish.I'm not taking anything from STS but imo he never once faced any horse remotely as good as her,you think he'd pick her up and carry her well for me he wouldn't get close to try.Do you also think that if he had been left at the start of his races he would be then able to do what she did win going away from the others completely out classing the field?
Zarkava, out of Zarkasha, out of Zarkana, out of Zarna, out of Zahra, and who last month foaled a colt by Sea the Stars (first crop) is a bit more than a top trump statistic.
And this Goldikova thread might have had a bit more credibility if you had stepped up with it at the beginning of last season when all the talk was of Rip Van Winkle mopping the floor with her.
And this Goldikova thread might have had a bit more credibility if you had stepped up with it at the beginning of last season when all the talk was of Rip Van Winkle mopping the floor with her.
Rip at his best, ie, eclipse and Sussex form could beat Goldikova over a mile imo, twud be a toss up.
Rip's eclipse form wasn't good enough to win an eclipse but he's dined out on it ever since, competent horse though he is.
Let's stick to the facts rather than fame by association. He had his chance to beat her and he blew it.
[btw, I should really put Petite Etoile in that Zarkava bloodline but it doesn't begin with "Z"]
Let's stick to the facts rather than fame by association. He had his chance to beat her and he blew it.
[btw, I should really put Petite Etoile in that Zarkava bloodline but it doesn't begin with "Z"]
In fact, the association of that female bloodline and the Aga Khan's family traces all the way back to 1922 and the purchase of Mumtaz Mahal for 9,100 guineas. Remarkable.
prima donna.
of course i believe he could win. didnt he not settle for most of the arc? look how long he pulls for his head, losing places, having to switch out and power away from that field, i reckon dar ri me and youmzain are decent yard stick for both as both were seemingly running at the peck of their powers at the time.
what did zarkava beat that was so great? a 3yr old goldikova? with all due respect she beat her at a track where goldi is 4/7 and look at her record everwhere else, practically impossible to beat, zarkava didnt beat the 4yr old goldi who is a different animal altogether.
sure look at this, no doubt it put pay to her chances
«
1
5 Zarkava (IRE) 30/100F 3 9-0 A De Royer-Dupre — * * »
b m Zamindar (USA) - Zarkasha (IRE) (Kahyasi) Christophe Soumillon
Held up, 8th straight, headway 2f out, led 1f out, pushed out and ran on well
«
2
1 2 Goldikova (IRE) 9/1 3 9-0 F Head — * * »
b m Anabaa (USA) - Born Gold (USA) (Blushing Groom) Olivier Peslier
Unseated rider at stalls, reluctant load, stumbled start, recovered, 5th straight, headway 2f out, 1 1/2f out, every chance 1f out, ran on same pace
zarkava never beat anything special, and the fact is sts can be ridden anyway they want, hes far more verstile than zarkava, u honestly think sts would not have been able to give 4L at the start of the vermille? come on man, he would have won easily as zarkava, its not like she won it on the bridle. and it all depends on the pace of the race anyway. lets not forget here, she only faced males ONCE, on her home track. how do we know it wasnt her ascot? the long straight suiting her running style down to the ground, takes her awhile to get going too, she wouldnt have won sts arc if she'd have gotten his identical path, but he'd have just run by everything in hers like she did, after his season to power away from those horses was just incredible.
all comers, she raced fillies her whole life except for one race, u cant get a balanced assessment of a horse like that as they were never going to trouble her were they? sts had obriens to deal with running races slowly, fast at diff courses, he proved it everywhere against everyone, she proved it once.
id say she wouldnt have been able to hold off rip and conduit in the eclipse, put her in the place of sts having to take up the running fully 2 and a 1/2 F out , have sever doubts myself.
of course i believe he could win. didnt he not settle for most of the arc? look how long he pulls for his head, losing places, having to switch out and power away from that field, i reckon dar ri me and youmzain are decent yard stick for both as both were seemingly running at the peck of their powers at the time.
what did zarkava beat that was so great? a 3yr old goldikova? with all due respect she beat her at a track where goldi is 4/7 and look at her record everwhere else, practically impossible to beat, zarkava didnt beat the 4yr old goldi who is a different animal altogether.
sure look at this, no doubt it put pay to her chances
«
1
5 Zarkava (IRE) 30/100F 3 9-0 A De Royer-Dupre — * * »
b m Zamindar (USA) - Zarkasha (IRE) (Kahyasi) Christophe Soumillon
Held up, 8th straight, headway 2f out, led 1f out, pushed out and ran on well
«
2
1 2 Goldikova (IRE) 9/1 3 9-0 F Head — * * »
b m Anabaa (USA) - Born Gold (USA) (Blushing Groom) Olivier Peslier
Unseated rider at stalls, reluctant load, stumbled start, recovered, 5th straight, headway 2f out, 1 1/2f out, every chance 1f out, ran on same pace
zarkava never beat anything special, and the fact is sts can be ridden anyway they want, hes far more verstile than zarkava, u honestly think sts would not have been able to give 4L at the start of the vermille? come on man, he would have won easily as zarkava, its not like she won it on the bridle. and it all depends on the pace of the race anyway. lets not forget here, she only faced males ONCE, on her home track. how do we know it wasnt her ascot? the long straight suiting her running style down to the ground, takes her awhile to get going too, she wouldnt have won sts arc if she'd have gotten his identical path, but he'd have just run by everything in hers like she did, after his season to power away from those horses was just incredible.
all comers, she raced fillies her whole life except for one race, u cant get a balanced assessment of a horse like that as they were never going to trouble her were they? sts had obriens to deal with running races slowly, fast at diff courses, he proved it everywhere against everyone, she proved it once.
id say she wouldnt have been able to hold off rip and conduit in the eclipse, put her in the place of sts having to take up the running fully 2 and a 1/2 F out , have sever doubts myself.
fwiw rip was a far better 3 yr old and his run against goldikova was his 1st run of the season.
rips run in the eclipse prob would have seen him win any ordinary year, but they were up against a freak.
mick said we only ever saw 75% of his ability, he actually said that.
rips run in the eclipse prob would have seen him win any ordinary year, but they were up against a freak.
mick said we only ever saw 75% of his ability, he actually said that.
There are plenty of horses that it can be argued would have won a particular race in another year. It's a redundant argument, as is "1st run of the season".
If his reputation is based on his running on the eclipse then he should have run in the next year's Prince of Wales, not the Queen Anne. The indisputable fact is Goldikova is the champion miler, not Rip, who she beat on the way to retaining that crown.
If his reputation is based on his running on the eclipse then he should have run in the next year's Prince of Wales, not the Queen Anne. The indisputable fact is Goldikova is the champion miler, not Rip, who she beat on the way to retaining that crown.
And, Goldikova beat the subsequent Prince of Wales winner on her 1st run of the season (his 3rd).
yeah im not arguing rip vs goldi, i know shes better, i love the horse, im just saying rip did not produce his form in the queen anne, he burned paco boy off easily before that. he still wouldnt beat goldi on a good day but he'd go extremely close.
im arguing rips run in the eclipse regarding the form of sts,as in another year that run would have been good enough to win the race but he was against a freak of nature who actually quickened again.
sure rips 2 sussex stakes runs and his win against twice over and byword are his best runs. destroyed paco boy that day, even goldi wouldve had her hands full with him. he wasnt a miler either imo, fooking coolmore, they shouldve given him more chances over 12f.they wanted a speed stallion.
im arguing rips run in the eclipse regarding the form of sts,as in another year that run would have been good enough to win the race but he was against a freak of nature who actually quickened again.
sure rips 2 sussex stakes runs and his win against twice over and byword are his best runs. destroyed paco boy that day, even goldi wouldve had her hands full with him. he wasnt a miler either imo, fooking coolmore, they shouldve given him more chances over 12f.they wanted a speed stallion.
One of the great things about Goldie is she never runs badly. To say that about a mare just about to start her 6 year old career is truly remarkable.
Good we all have opinions mine for what its worth is Zarkava is better than ANY of the above,both her and STS are greats put it this way if both Zarkava and STS had a match race over a mile,mile and a quarter,or 12f the result would be the brilliant filly would lower the colours of STS.I also think that if she faced Goldikova again at Goldikova's best trip of a mile then once again Golikova would finish 2nd,Zarkava had a fantastic finishing kick far superior than any of the above.
A few on here say to forget the fact Goldikova was beaten over 10f as she is a miler,well lots also say how good STS was to win the Juddmonte over 10f he was but lets not forget Mastercrafstman was also a miler running over a trip to far with the only other runners being pacehorses for Master',could we think it was just a soft race for STS to scoop up?
A few on here say to forget the fact Goldikova was beaten over 10f as she is a miler,well lots also say how good STS was to win the Juddmonte over 10f he was but lets not forget Mastercrafstman was also a miler running over a trip to far with the only other runners being pacehorses for Master',could we think it was just a soft race for STS to scoop up?
You must have watched a different horse Prima STS's finishing kick was blistering - he settled the Arc in a matter of strides then idled - Zarkava was all-out at the end of her Arc. STS also won the Eclipse and Irish Champion over 10f in case you forget.
It's pure guesswork as to who would won between STS and Zarkava. But what's certain is that what STS did on the racecourse was far more impressive. Zarkava was rested for over 3 months in the summer to prepare for her Arc - STS kept toiling throughout the year and still put in a better Arc performance.
STS > Zarkava by some margin.
It's pure guesswork as to who would won between STS and Zarkava. But what's certain is that what STS did on the racecourse was far more impressive. Zarkava was rested for over 3 months in the summer to prepare for her Arc - STS kept toiling throughout the year and still put in a better Arc performance.
STS > Zarkava by some margin.
Prima I reckon you must have some of the family in your sheds 
I have a few STS foals yes and a couple of mares have gone to him this year,also have seen Zarkava how I wish she was mine!
i dont think anyone could dispute that sts has a more impressive career, the races he won are far more prestegious and far more difficult to win, thats just a nfact.
other than the arc, all her other races were exclusively for fillies, sts was open to any horse that cared to show up.
i dont see how anyone in racing can dispute that fact.
as A_T mentioned she had a long break mid summer in preparation as she had temperment issues and would no way have won the succesion of races sts had to endure and i think its fair to say she was starting to sour towards the end of her 3 yr old career.
if u look at both horses careers side by side and look what both horses actually achieved i believe its not even a contest if anyone in the industry had a chance to have trained or to have been involved with either horse, sea the stars would be the one most would chose. i have little doubt about that.
everything about him was water tight, he had no flaws, and PROVED IT. zarkava didnt , we can fight all day but if u actually had to go thru everything each achieved on the race couse, there would be ticks in every box for sea the stars, she never even left france for a start. she never race right handed...how do we even know she went right handed? she only ever faced her own sex except once in the arc. she only ever raced ONCE away from longchamp,a quite extraordinary fact and is a huge negetive when comparing her against a colt that won 6 the best group ones available and achieved a succession of races that has never been achieved in a single season in the entire history of the sport.
one was a quite brilliant filly the other achieved immortality.
other than the arc, all her other races were exclusively for fillies, sts was open to any horse that cared to show up.
i dont see how anyone in racing can dispute that fact.
as A_T mentioned she had a long break mid summer in preparation as she had temperment issues and would no way have won the succesion of races sts had to endure and i think its fair to say she was starting to sour towards the end of her 3 yr old career.
if u look at both horses careers side by side and look what both horses actually achieved i believe its not even a contest if anyone in the industry had a chance to have trained or to have been involved with either horse, sea the stars would be the one most would chose. i have little doubt about that.
everything about him was water tight, he had no flaws, and PROVED IT. zarkava didnt , we can fight all day but if u actually had to go thru everything each achieved on the race couse, there would be ticks in every box for sea the stars, she never even left france for a start. she never race right handed...how do we even know she went right handed? she only ever faced her own sex except once in the arc. she only ever raced ONCE away from longchamp,a quite extraordinary fact and is a huge negetive when comparing her against a colt that won 6 the best group ones available and achieved a succession of races that has never been achieved in a single season in the entire history of the sport.
one was a quite brilliant filly the other achieved immortality.
For those that have never seen Zakarva win the Prix Vermeille, take a look at the you-tube link below. Last place (over 20L off the pace) until the straight when Soumillion presses the button. An incredible turn of foot to win going away. She would have beaten Goldikova (another exceptional filly / mare) over any distance, irrespective of the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8h62nadtuw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8h62nadtuw
2008 was a vintage year, New Approach, Henrythenavigator, Ravens Pass and Zarkava. 4 proper horses. Even Duke of Marmalade. I think New Approach would have won most of the races STS did, look what he did to Twice Over, we never saw the best of him. Henry and RP coming 1-2 in the BC Classic with the mighty Curlin in behind. 4 proper racehorses. Vintage season.
How can you make the assertion New Approach would have won most of the races STS did? He couldn't win the 2000 Guineas (although he contested the slowest this century), he couldn't win the Juddmonte International and he ducked the Arc.
neill d Joined: 19 Aug 09
Replies: 1658 21 Apr 11 21:20
2008 was a vintage year, New Approach, Henrythenavigator, Ravens Pass and Zarkava. 4 proper horses. Even Duke of Marmalade. I think New Approach would have won most of the races STS did, look what he did to Twice Over, we never saw the best of him. Henry and RP coming 1-2 in the BC Classic with the mighty Curlin in behind. 4 proper racehorses. Vintage season.
ridiculous statement! its not about winning one or two its about winning every single one, thats what separates the good from the greats, what sts has never been done and might never be done again...ever, its not impossible.
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
again zarkava only ONCE faced males, ever, it was a closed shop, she was looked after by he trainer. the fillies she beat other than dar re mi and goldikova achieved nothing and goldikova improved vastly as an older horse.
why mention new approach anyway, they never even raced each other, its not like she beat him. she never travelled to the uk to race the males, why not?
she prob would have been beat thats why.
Replies: 1658 21 Apr 11 21:20
2008 was a vintage year, New Approach, Henrythenavigator, Ravens Pass and Zarkava. 4 proper horses. Even Duke of Marmalade. I think New Approach would have won most of the races STS did, look what he did to Twice Over, we never saw the best of him. Henry and RP coming 1-2 in the BC Classic with the mighty Curlin in behind. 4 proper racehorses. Vintage season.
ridiculous statement! its not about winning one or two its about winning every single one, thats what separates the good from the greats, what sts has never been done and might never be done again...ever, its not impossible.
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
again zarkava only ONCE faced males, ever, it was a closed shop, she was looked after by he trainer. the fillies she beat other than dar re mi and goldikova achieved nothing and goldikova improved vastly as an older horse.
why mention new approach anyway, they never even raced each other, its not like she beat him. she never travelled to the uk to race the males, why not?
she prob would have been beat thats why.
Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 668 21 Apr 11 20:27
For those that have never seen Zakarva win the Prix Vermeille, take a look at the you-tube link below. Last place (over 20L off the pace) until the straight when Soumillion presses the button. An incredible turn of foot to win going away. She would have beaten Goldikova (another exceptional filly / mare) over any distance, irrespective of the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8h62nadtuw
it was a weak race ffs, only dar re mi is worth mentioning, she beat the filly 2L , big deal.
it was a sh!t race, most of them were donkeys!!look thru the form, poo horses struggling to place in g3's half of them.
Replies: 668 21 Apr 11 20:27
For those that have never seen Zakarva win the Prix Vermeille, take a look at the you-tube link below. Last place (over 20L off the pace) until the straight when Soumillion presses the button. An incredible turn of foot to win going away. She would have beaten Goldikova (another exceptional filly / mare) over any distance, irrespective of the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8h62nadtuw
it was a weak race ffs, only dar re mi is worth mentioning, she beat the filly 2L , big deal.
it was a sh!t race, most of them were donkeys!!look thru the form, poo horses struggling to place in g3's half of them.
This d1ck ilikewavingatbuses is always really wise after the event. Frankel was just an over-hyped horse when the evidence was there he was special for everyone to see ffs. Take his views as you would the betting shop know-it-all.
A_T also complete rubbish as usual from him he must do packets on here.
gerard showing early doors on this thread he suffers from a disease known as cluelessness
Twice gerard not just once, you missed it twice clown.
eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 2950 22 Apr 11 06:28
This d1ck ilikewavingatbuses is always really wise after the event. Frankel was just an over-hyped horse when the evidence was there he was special for everyone to see ffs. Take his views as you would the betting shop know-it-all.
eh we're comparing the careers of 2 retired horses
turns out he has serious comprehension issues too
Replies: 2950 22 Apr 11 06:28
This d1ck ilikewavingatbuses is always really wise after the event. Frankel was just an over-hyped horse when the evidence was there he was special for everyone to see ffs. Take his views as you would the betting shop know-it-all.
eh we're comparing the careers of 2 retired horses
turns out he has serious comprehension issues too
ilikewavingatbuses Joined: 06 Jun 09
Replies: 10759 22 Apr 11 01:24
neill d Joined: 19 Aug 09
Replies: 1658 21 Apr 11 21:20
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
Silly statement. Can Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, et all not be considered one of the 'greats' because they lost a race, or even several. STS, another 'great' also lost !
Replies: 10759 22 Apr 11 01:24
neill d Joined: 19 Aug 09
Replies: 1658 21 Apr 11 21:20
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
Silly statement. Can Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, et all not be considered one of the 'greats' because they lost a race, or even several. STS, another 'great' also lost !
Good point and remember Zarkava was a GR1 winning 2 y'old STS was not!
Zarkava just not in the same league as STS, Nijinksy, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef. The filly never left Paris and all but one of her races versus fillies only. It's like having a football team that plays all it's matches at home.
A-T, i'm not suggesting that at all, I was simply responding to the post from ilikewavingatbuses although I doubt it would be a forgone conclusion if STS and Zarkava had ever met. Is it such a big deal she only raced on 2 Parisean tracks, she only had 7 races after all and although she was a highly strung filly (many are) that should not detract from her brilliance. If Henry Cecil had trained her under the same circumstances, winning 5 group 1's including the fillies triple crown, an Arc (all with a tremendous turn of foot) and remaining unbeaten in 7 before retiring to stud, many on here would be calling her the best filly ever. I've been lucky enough to see many great fillies in my lifetime including Dahlia, Oh So Sharp, Dunfermline, Pawneese and Golikova to name a few, but Zakarka was the best of them in my opinion.
I wasn't suggesting NA was better than STS, just that at his best, I think he'd have beaten the horses STS did, I was just making the point in a roundabout way that apart from STS and Rip, the rest of the 09 set weren't the best. Duke, HTN and Ravens Pass are probably all probably better than anything STS faced bar maybe Rip on a going day. In retrospect, the only time he was half tested was the eclipse. To reiterate the point, apart from Rip, he didn't beat much, but I know he is a great horse but so is Zarkava, I think she could have done it on any track but we'll never know.
Zarkava's programme was faultless for a Prix Marcel Boussac winning 3yo filly. Where else should she have gone?
There was plenty of talent around in 2009 but it became obvious very early in the season lining up against STS meant place money only.
There was plenty of talent around in 2009 but it became obvious very early in the season lining up against STS meant place money only.
Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 08:03
ilikewavingatbuses Joined: 06 Jun 09
Replies: 10759 22 Apr 11 01:24
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
Silly statement. Can Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, et all not be considered one of the 'greats' because they lost a race, or even several. STS, another 'great' also lost !
ok fair point andrew but it is a detractor. it will always been that 'thing', that talking point such as DB not winning a derby and as great as his turn of foot was, he didnt get there, it doesnt matter how far back he , jockey error (which i believe wasnt the only reason btw, i think his balance let him down and didnt fully handle the course), he will always have that on his record. there isnt anything like that with sea the stars, he did it, he won every one of them, he looked beat in the juddmonte for a split second but he pulled it out at the end to win easily. if he didnt have the turn of foot to get off the rail in the arc as the pacemakers were coming back that would have been the equivalent of DB derby or how nijinski not quite getting up in the arc but he got up, he got off the rai because he could, he had the ability and won so easily in the end THATS the difference.
Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 09:22
A-T, i'm not suggesting that at all, I was simply responding to the post from ilikewavingatbuses although I doubt it would be a forgone conclusion if STS and Zarkava had ever met. Is it such a big deal she only raced on 2 Parisean tracks, she only had 7 races after all and although she was a highly strung filly (many are) that should not detract from her brilliance. If Henry Cecil had trained her under the same circumstances, winning 5 group 1's including the fillies triple crown, an Arc (all with a tremendous turn of foot) and remaining unbeaten in 7 before retiring to stud, many on here would be calling her the best filly ever. I've been lucky enough to see many great fillies in my lifetime including Dahlia, Oh So Sharp, Dunfermline, Pawneese and Golikova to name a few, but Zakarka was the best of them in my opinion.
of course its a big deal, we are debating two great race horses against each other and trying to prove who is the better and looking and each and trying to find out any faults. we are talking potentially the best EVER in the history of the sport and ever field and challange must be looked at, what did they face, how did they win, what did they win, the tracks etc...
i though it was well put by the poster that it was like playing at home, thats exactly what it was like, imagine if sts only ever raced at leopardstown and then went to i dunno say navan ONCE in his career. ok of course longchamp has better races but can u not see how much easier that would have been for him, practically no travel. she never travelled, and i take what someone said 'where else would she had gone'? and thats a fair point, shes trained in france it he career was built around there but whilst she was facing fillies that she had already beat easily time and time again, there were much more competitive races against males and older horses in the UK and IRE which she took no part in. can that be said of sea the stars? NO! he took part in pretty much any g1 worth mentioning and any of the ones he didnt win wee won by horses he already beat. people keep talking about 09 being a weaker year the 08? can someone please explain to me how this is so? and also explain it to me that helps the case of zarkava, theres no point mentioning new approach if the two never met, him beating twice over has no bearing on how good her form is if they never actually sat side by side in the stalls on day. what did she beat? have u looked at the form of the vermille/diane etc... joke races, only goldi and dar ri me worth mentioning up until the arc.
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 08:03
ilikewavingatbuses Joined: 06 Jun 09
Replies: 10759 22 Apr 11 01:24
take frankel for example if he fails in the guineas thats it , its over, the 'greatness', the record, it can never be fixed, sts achieved greatness.
Silly statement. Can Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Dancing Brave, et all not be considered one of the 'greats' because they lost a race, or even several. STS, another 'great' also lost !
ok fair point andrew but it is a detractor. it will always been that 'thing', that talking point such as DB not winning a derby and as great as his turn of foot was, he didnt get there, it doesnt matter how far back he , jockey error (which i believe wasnt the only reason btw, i think his balance let him down and didnt fully handle the course), he will always have that on his record. there isnt anything like that with sea the stars, he did it, he won every one of them, he looked beat in the juddmonte for a split second but he pulled it out at the end to win easily. if he didnt have the turn of foot to get off the rail in the arc as the pacemakers were coming back that would have been the equivalent of DB derby or how nijinski not quite getting up in the arc but he got up, he got off the rai because he could, he had the ability and won so easily in the end THATS the difference.
Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 670 22 Apr 11 09:22
A-T, i'm not suggesting that at all, I was simply responding to the post from ilikewavingatbuses although I doubt it would be a forgone conclusion if STS and Zarkava had ever met. Is it such a big deal she only raced on 2 Parisean tracks, she only had 7 races after all and although she was a highly strung filly (many are) that should not detract from her brilliance. If Henry Cecil had trained her under the same circumstances, winning 5 group 1's including the fillies triple crown, an Arc (all with a tremendous turn of foot) and remaining unbeaten in 7 before retiring to stud, many on here would be calling her the best filly ever. I've been lucky enough to see many great fillies in my lifetime including Dahlia, Oh So Sharp, Dunfermline, Pawneese and Golikova to name a few, but Zakarka was the best of them in my opinion.
of course its a big deal, we are debating two great race horses against each other and trying to prove who is the better and looking and each and trying to find out any faults. we are talking potentially the best EVER in the history of the sport and ever field and challange must be looked at, what did they face, how did they win, what did they win, the tracks etc...
i though it was well put by the poster that it was like playing at home, thats exactly what it was like, imagine if sts only ever raced at leopardstown and then went to i dunno say navan ONCE in his career. ok of course longchamp has better races but can u not see how much easier that would have been for him, practically no travel. she never travelled, and i take what someone said 'where else would she had gone'? and thats a fair point, shes trained in france it he career was built around there but whilst she was facing fillies that she had already beat easily time and time again, there were much more competitive races against males and older horses in the UK and IRE which she took no part in. can that be said of sea the stars? NO! he took part in pretty much any g1 worth mentioning and any of the ones he didnt win wee won by horses he already beat. people keep talking about 09 being a weaker year the 08? can someone please explain to me how this is so? and also explain it to me that helps the case of zarkava, theres no point mentioning new approach if the two never met, him beating twice over has no bearing on how good her form is if they never actually sat side by side in the stalls on day. what did she beat? have u looked at the form of the vermille/diane etc... joke races, only goldi and dar ri me worth mentioning up until the arc.
ilikewavingatbuses, debating who was the best colt / filly is clearly a matter of opinion, with so many variables to consider, but I respect comments from many posters here, it's what a horse racing forum should be all about. You've obviously picked up i'm a Zarkava fan through and through, but my posts are based on an opinion that Zarkava was better than Goldikova (even though the mare is exeptional). I'm not stating she was better than STS at all, but if they had met, I don't know which one I would have backed, or even if I would have had a bet (a race to savour) but it wouldn't have surprised me if Zarkava won, or at least got close. I take your points about Zarkava vs fillies but she still won a reasonably good Arc, and won it easily after being last out of the stalls, staying at the rear of the field for much of the race and coming with a late run to win impressively.
Golikova went on to improve as a 4 and 5 yr old but sadly Zakarva was denied that chance, although she did enough as a 2 and 3 yr old to be considered one of the truly great fillies, in my opinion of course ;-).
If anyone hasn't see her Arc win ...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdlOoBowkWo
Golikova went on to improve as a 4 and 5 yr old but sadly Zakarva was denied that chance, although she did enough as a 2 and 3 yr old to be considered one of the truly great fillies, in my opinion of course ;-).
If anyone hasn't see her Arc win ...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdlOoBowkWo
^^^^^ I think you've said everything I wanted to say a lot more eloquently than I could have Andrew. I think this sums up my oppinion on this trio
Goldikova
Goldikova
ah yeah, just opinion, workforce might have beat them both silly
Maybe we will be including Frankel later in the year ;-)
i sure hope so even tho i may seem against him sometimes, i think we all just want to see special horses yr in yr out. v exciting if he does win the guineas and then goes straight to the derby, i personally dont think he'll stay and u may have seen me debate it with mr morris but i just take the pig headed approach to annoy him as he wont budge eitherway
love pathfork myself too, he could be the star.
love pathfork myself too, he could be the star.
If Frankel doesn't win the 2000 gns next week, my ex-wife is going to have to sing for money ;-)
Just for the sake of it who do you rate the better STS or Nijinsky?Both greats but one sets the benchmark when we talk about 'real' greatness in winning the Triple Crown after being CH 2 y'old of 1969,the other ducked his chance of having any claim to be regarded remotely equal in comparison by side stepping the TC.My vote goes to Nijinsky.
yes i was perhaps a little hasty in my if u lose a race ur not great, of course i dont think that way but i was just trying to say that sts never needed excuses it was all perfect, he just kept winning no matter what, there wee a few hairy moments but he got the job done.
v difficult question prima, unfortuantel nijinsky was long before my time (im 26 on wednesday
) but i have of course watched his races, its impossible for me to answer it in truth, i dont know his form well enough but he was brilliant. actually prefer him to dancing brave myself.(nijinski that is)
v difficult question prima, unfortuantel nijinsky was long before my time (im 26 on wednesday
) but i have of course watched his races, its impossible for me to answer it in truth, i dont know his form well enough but he was brilliant. actually prefer him to dancing brave myself.(nijinski that is)
yes like u i wanted him to go for the leger and would have beat the godolphi pair imo but alas we'll never know.
Prima Donna,
Again a difficult call, but as great as STS obviously was, I think Nijinsky wins the vote. Although he was a very tempermental colt and didn't like starting stalls, that didn't diminish his ability. He won a good Epsom Derby (the French colts, Gyr and Stintino placed) after being ill days before the race (and again before the St Leger). Although Lester may not have been at his brilliant best when he got beat in the Arc, surely illness and a hard race in the Leger took their toll. If he hadn't run in the Leger, i've no doubt he would have won the Arc and the Champion stakes, but Triple Crown status won the day (Englehard insistence maybe ?).
11 wins from 13, an exceptional colt and quite possibly the best ever.
This was a great era of flat racing, Sir Ivor, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc and I lived it ;_)
Again a difficult call, but as great as STS obviously was, I think Nijinsky wins the vote. Although he was a very tempermental colt and didn't like starting stalls, that didn't diminish his ability. He won a good Epsom Derby (the French colts, Gyr and Stintino placed) after being ill days before the race (and again before the St Leger). Although Lester may not have been at his brilliant best when he got beat in the Arc, surely illness and a hard race in the Leger took their toll. If he hadn't run in the Leger, i've no doubt he would have won the Arc and the Champion stakes, but Triple Crown status won the day (Englehard insistence maybe ?).
11 wins from 13, an exceptional colt and quite possibly the best ever.
This was a great era of flat racing, Sir Ivor, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef etc and I lived it ;_)
Thinking back, Nijinsky was probably my first confident 'real' bet but as a low paid apprentice I had to dip into savings to back him.
yes i suppose nijinski might just edge it for me too considering he was sick and went down a head in the arc after the leger.
would love to see the documentary narrated by orson welles.
would love to see the documentary narrated by orson welles.
secretariat around in early 70s too. wonder if they ever had secret races nijinsky vs big red at claibourne[;)]
ilikewavingatbuses, try this ....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Horse-Called-Nijinsky-DVD-Horse-Racing-Legend-NEW-/380283391471?pt=UK_CDsDVDs_DVDs_DVDs_GL&ha****m588aa80def
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Horse-Called-Nijinsky-DVD-Horse-Racing-Legend-NEW-/380283391471?pt=UK_CDsDVDs_DVDs_DVDs_GL&ha****m588aa80def
STS didn't "duck" the St Leger - he simply didn't run in it. The race has much less prestige than 40 years ago and these days such a show of stamina is a real black mark for a stallion (unfortunately) - no way STS's owners were going to have that. The last really top class 3 year old 12f colt to run in it and I can only come up with Reference Point. The chances of any Guineas/Derby winner running in the race again are slim.
Good point about Nijinsky. Had he been rested for 3 months and had a soft prep race like Zarkava he would probably have won the Arc. Which is why I can't have a Zarkava has a racing great just an exceptional filly. Send her travelling all summer like Nijinksy or STS and she'd have had nothing left for the Arc. Which is why STS is so great IMO he had a hard summers racing and still won the Arc with contemptible ease.
Good point about Nijinsky. Had he been rested for 3 months and had a soft prep race like Zarkava he would probably have won the Arc. Which is why I can't have a Zarkava has a racing great just an exceptional filly. Send her travelling all summer like Nijinksy or STS and she'd have had nothing left for the Arc. Which is why STS is so great IMO he had a hard summers racing and still won the Arc with contemptible ease.
Andrew, look through Zarkava's female bloodline and you can fully appreciate what the Aga Khan has achieved. Satisfaction doesn't even begin to describe how he must feel:
http://www.agakhanstuds.com/home/home.asp
A_T, Zarkava is a great. There was nowhere to send her, she did it all and there's every chance that the colt she's just produced by STS may be a future sire-of-sires.
http://www.agakhanstuds.com/home/home.asp
A_T, Zarkava is a great. There was nowhere to send her, she did it all and there's every chance that the colt she's just produced by STS may be a future sire-of-sires.
Can't have her as a great. You can't give that tag to a horse who only raced all-comers once. Why not race her at 4? It's not as if the Aga Khan is going to be selling her foals or anything remotely related to her. And chances are her foals will be as slow as a boat.
Hippie,
Thanks, the Aga Khan certainly has an incredible stud empire (including STS), almost like a French Coolmore.
I go for the Arc weekend most years and when STS won, the Aga Khan had 3 group winners on the Saturday and 4 group 1's on the Sunday !
Thanks, the Aga Khan certainly has an incredible stud empire (including STS), almost like a French Coolmore.
I go for the Arc weekend most years and when STS won, the Aga Khan had 3 group winners on the Saturday and 4 group 1's on the Sunday !
If the Arc isn't is the race to take on all-comers then there isn't one. The English and Irish derby winners bottled it and the Prix du Jockey Club winner was firmly put in his place.
She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
hippie Joined: 07 Jun 05
Replies: 3660 22 Apr 11 16:02
If the Arc isn't is the race to take on all-comers then there isn't one. The English and Irish derby winners bottled it and the Prix du Jockey Club winner was firmly put in his place.
She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
she raced fillies all but once, all time great? perhaps one of the great FILLIES, but being shipped off to stud as soon as she beats the males? come on. didnt race males until her last race on he home track that she had raced 6/7 times, this isnt greatness.
Replies: 3660 22 Apr 11 16:02
If the Arc isn't is the race to take on all-comers then there isn't one. The English and Irish derby winners bottled it and the Prix du Jockey Club winner was firmly put in his place.
She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
she raced fillies all but once, all time great?
perhaps one of the great FILLIES, but being shipped off to stud as soon as she beats the males? come on. didnt race males until her last race on he home track that she had raced 6/7 times, this isnt greatness.
she had a clear advantage over all the other runners in the arc, most of whom it was their 1st time at the track, she had seen the track 5times before that race and clearly loved the place. NEVER RACED LEFT HANDED...all time great?
raced on the SAME TRACK , her home track, 6 out of 7 times she ran in her life..all time great?
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?
Prix de Diane (Group 1) (Fillies) ??? the 2nd only ever won a g3
goldi was in 3rd
the 4th proviso lol, world beater? had to go to america to win a group 1, a group 3 the best it could achieve in europe. the rest are a joke and other than goldi, not worth a mention. weak weak g1. shouldve went the derby for breeding purposes suely agains the colts? why didnt she? bottled it. hanging on to her unbeaten record.like why wouldnt she go to epsom, that was the much harder and more prestigeous race would u not agree?
raced on the SAME TRACK , her home track, 6 out of 7 times she ran in her life..all time great?
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?
Prix de Diane (Group 1) (Fillies) ??? the 2nd only ever won a g3
goldi was in 3rd
the 4th proviso lol, world beater? had to go to america to win a group 1, a group 3 the best it could achieve in europe. the rest are a joke and other than goldi, not worth a mention. weak weak g1. shouldve went the derby for breeding purposes suely agains the colts? why didnt she? bottled it. hanging on to her unbeaten record.like why wouldnt she go to epsom, that was the much harder and more prestigeous race would u not agree?
i mean she can be considered a brilliant filly but to actually put her in the same bracket as sts , db, nijinski, sea bird, on what she actually achieved on the track really puts down what they achieved imo.
opening herself up to ONE race against colts , in her last race at her fav track in her home country, and her home track. this needs to be put in pespective imo.
opening herself up to ONE race against colts , in her last race at her fav track in her home country, and her home track. this needs to be put in pespective imo.
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?
Fillies rarely go for the Epsom Derby (or any Derby for that matter). The last filly to win it was almost 100 years ago; they
are disadvantaged against colts that early in the year, only receiving 5 lbs.
Fillies have their own Derby, it's called the Oaks and Zakarva won the The Prix De Diane (the French version).
If the owners wanted to preserve an unbeaten record, they wouldn't have gone for the Arc unless they knew she was 'special' ;-)
Fillies rarely go for the Epsom Derby (or any Derby for that matter). The last filly to win it was almost 100 years ago; they
are disadvantaged against colts that early in the year, only receiving 5 lbs.
Fillies have their own Derby, it's called the Oaks and Zakarva won the The Prix De Diane (the French version).
If the owners wanted to preserve an unbeaten record, they wouldn't have gone for the Arc unless they knew she was 'special' ;-)
the arc is the only time she ever had to race the boys, surely to be 'great' u gotta race the lads more than once, her connections limited her programme to very winnable races in france. u jst proved my point, it was 100yrs since a filly won it so if she'd have gone and won then we would be able to CONSIDER her in the same light but instead she took part in the diane, which looks like a g3 UK standards
i gave u the form, nothing of any note is in behind other than goldi, the rest struggled to win g3s ffs[smiley:crazy]
i gave u the form, nothing of any note is in behind other than goldi, the rest struggled to win g3s ffs[smiley:crazy]
its fuuny how its so obvious to me giving all my reasons (track, competition, conditions, presteige of race) that she had it so easy, the horses she were average fillys , very average in the majority. even having a huge break befor the arc , sts didnt have this privilage , much like nijinsky, it just makes it all even more impressive dont u think?
Andrew in Sweden Joined: 10 Nov 07
Replies: 678 22 Apr 11 17:05
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?
Fillies rarely go for the Epsom Derby (or any Derby for that matter). The last filly to win it was almost 100 years ago; they
are disadvantaged against colts that early in the year, only receiving 5 lbs.
so u agree they looked after her a targeted weaker races?
surely all time greats dont do this
Replies: 678 22 Apr 11 17:05
never left france? why want the epsom derby considered, surely that would have been a much better race if her owners were concerned about breeding?
Fillies rarely go for the Epsom Derby (or any Derby for that matter). The last filly to win it was almost 100 years ago; they
are disadvantaged against colts that early in the year, only receiving 5 lbs.
so u agree they looked after her a targeted weaker races?
surely all time greats dont do this
Andrew, why waste your time? Hopefully we'll get to dicuss racing during the season.
gl
gl
its just a friendly discussion hippie, surely its what we're all here for, this is everyone fav part of racing surely. its the fun part. im not saying im right, i dont know, im just putting good questions out there to be answered if they can, we're talking about all time greats here and its important we flesh it out now and again no?
feel bad for hijacking the goldi thread tho discussing these 2, prob shouldve started a new thread.
feel bad for hijacking the goldi thread tho discussing these 2, prob shouldve started a new thread.
She's the culmination of over 35 years of this Aga Khan's nurturing of the bloodline and almost 90 years of his family's work. She was never going to race at four and everybody knows (almost everybody) that his breeding programme is as important to the Aga Khan as racing is.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
None of which would have been affected by her racing at 4. Suspect once she had bagged the Arc the Aga Khan never wanted to have risk the personal disappointment of seeing her beaten.
People get too sentimental about fillies and this clouds their judgement. Fact is that Zarkava's racecourse achievements do not stack up against the other greats of the last 20 or 30 years like STS, Dancing Brave, Montjeu.
Andrew, the relationship between the Aga Khans and Zarkava's family is like something out of a fairy-tale. The true romance of horse-racing.
None of which would have been affected by her racing at 4. Suspect once she had bagged the Arc the Aga Khan never wanted to have risk the personal disappointment of seeing her beaten.
People get too sentimental about fillies and this clouds their judgement. Fact is that Zarkava's racecourse achievements do not stack up against the other greats of the last 20 or 30 years like STS, Dancing Brave, Montjeu.
Agree with A_T there. At the weights she comes out 1lb higher than Youmzain on that Arc run. Hardly stuff of legend. This is not to denigrate what she actually has done, just can't rate her as high as others.
You need a horse to prove it's the best a few times to get all-time great status and Zarkava simply didn't do enough in her short career.
Ironically, he victim, Goldikova has a shout at greatness for longevity, consistency, versatility and class.
No-one seems to think that Lammtarra is an all time great, or Workfroce (yet) and their records are comparable with zarkava.
Apols if repeated anything from earlier.
You need a horse to prove it's the best a few times to get all-time great status and Zarkava simply didn't do enough in her short career.
Ironically, he victim, Goldikova has a shout at greatness for longevity, consistency, versatility and class.
No-one seems to think that Lammtarra is an all time great, or Workfroce (yet) and their records are comparable with zarkava.
Apols if repeated anything from earlier.
A T,Just so as you know I personally know the Aga and he felt she was so special along with her trainer that she had nothing left to prove,lots talk about Dalakhani as a very good colt his trainer one of them,but Zarkava is regarded as superior."The personal disappointment of seeing her beaten" as you say may be true as he rarely keeps fillies in training at 4 certainly ones as good as her.
And just one more thing regarding STS running in the St.Leger impacting on his commercial value,as a breeder and having mares that are of that class (GR1)he would of not received a single mare less,perhaps his connections also felt 'the personal disappointment of seeing him beat' had he run maybe they knew his limitations they knew he was perhaps not as tough and as versatile as Nijinsky.
And just one more thing regarding STS running in the St.Leger impacting on his commercial value,as a breeder and having mares that are of that class (GR1)he would of not received a single mare less,perhaps his connections also felt 'the personal disappointment of seeing him beat' had he run maybe they knew his limitations they knew he was perhaps not as tough and as versatile as Nijinsky.
Prima Donna Joined: 29 Apr 09
Replies: 3166 22 Apr 11 18:22
A T,Just so as you know I personally know the Aga and he felt she was so special along with her trainer that she had nothing left to prove,lots talk about Dalakhani as a very good colt his trainer one of them,but Zarkava is regarded as superior."The personal disappointment of seeing her beaten" as you say may be true as he rarely keeps fillies in training at 4 certainly ones as good as her.
And just one more thing regarding STS running in the St.Leger impacting on his commercial value,as a breeder and having mares that are of that class (GR1)he would of not received a single mare less,perhaps his connections also felt 'the personal disappointment of seeing him beat' had he run maybe they knew his limitations they knew he was perhaps not as tough and as versatile as Nijinsky.
cant have that at all, sure he swatted them away like flys. mick went on recored saying the horses only ever showed 75% of his ability.
lammtarra is vastly underrated, quite astonishing to think whet he achieved on just 4 visits to the track, remarkable.
Replies: 3166 22 Apr 11 18:22
A T,Just so as you know I personally know the Aga and he felt she was so special along with her trainer that she had nothing left to prove,lots talk about Dalakhani as a very good colt his trainer one of them,but Zarkava is regarded as superior."The personal disappointment of seeing her beaten" as you say may be true as he rarely keeps fillies in training at 4 certainly ones as good as her.
And just one more thing regarding STS running in the St.Leger impacting on his commercial value,as a breeder and having mares that are of that class (GR1)he would of not received a single mare less,perhaps his connections also felt 'the personal disappointment of seeing him beat' had he run maybe they knew his limitations they knew he was perhaps not as tough and as versatile as Nijinsky.
cant have that at all, sure he swatted them away like flys. mick went on recored saying the horses only ever showed 75% of his ability.
lammtarra is vastly underrated, quite astonishing to think whet he achieved on just 4 visits to the track, remarkable.
Jeez, crabbing Sea the Stars for lacking versatility is a bit much!
i suppose the same could be said of zarkava, they knew she prob wouldve been beat if they sent her to the derby or abroad, they knew her limitations as u say.
as for versatility, if sts isnt tough and versatile, what does that make zarkava?
as for versatility, if sts isnt tough and versatile, what does that make zarkava?
Comparing horses from 40 years ago to today's animals is like comparing Jesse Owens to Usain Bolt...
jair1970,I agree but we all do it from time to time,and I also agree with your view of Lamtarra his achievements were remarkable
I'm simply not a bog fan of Goldikova. She's very good and consistent but she's never quite done it for me beating off the likes of Paco's Boy etc.
I certainly wouldn't have rated her as highly as I did Zarkava who I regard as real top class nor does she have the appeal of Zenyatta.
To be honest I find her a very boring horse who for the best part has been the best of a bad lot.
This year will be oh so different and the excuse she's past her best will no doubt be echoing the forum when she meets Canford Cliffs.
He's simply in a different league to her and he may not be the only one she has to worry about.
f Frankel ends up being kept at a mile he may well prove to be better than both.
I reckon we could be coming to the end of what has been a very poor era ruled by a queen who's royalty is/was at best questionable.
I certainly wouldn't have rated her as highly as I did Zarkava who I regard as real top class nor does she have the appeal of Zenyatta.
To be honest I find her a very boring horse who for the best part has been the best of a bad lot.
This year will be oh so different and the excuse she's past her best will no doubt be echoing the forum when she meets Canford Cliffs.
He's simply in a different league to her and he may not be the only one she has to worry about.
f Frankel ends up being kept at a mile he may well prove to be better than both.
I reckon we could be coming to the end of what has been a very poor era ruled by a queen who's royalty is/was at best questionable.
jair1970 Joined: 16 Nov 06
Replies: 607 22 Apr 11 18:22
Agree with A_T there. At the weights she comes out 1lb higher than Youmzain on that Arc run. Hardly stuff of legend. This is not to denigrate what she actually has done, just can't rate her as high as others.
Zarkava was never going to be ranked up there with the all time greats do to her style of running /the way she was ridden.
However imo she is up there with the very best.
From the day of her win in the Prix Marcel Boussac(1st time i saw her) she had wow factor in each & every one of her subsequent performances.
In virtually everyone of those events she was set an enormous amount to do by Soumillon & looked more likely to get beat than win until he flicked her in to overdrive then in 1/2 furlong it was clear despite probably being 6 lengths behind she was going to mow them down in a matter of strides.
One of the all time greats that will not be mentioned as 1 in years to come .
Replies: 607 22 Apr 11 18:22
Agree with A_T there. At the weights she comes out 1lb higher than Youmzain on that Arc run. Hardly stuff of legend. This is not to denigrate what she actually has done, just can't rate her as high as others.
Zarkava was never going to be ranked up there with the all time greats do to her style of running /the way she was ridden.
However imo she is up there with the very best.
From the day of her win in the Prix Marcel Boussac(1st time i saw her) she had wow factor in each & every one of her subsequent performances.
In virtually everyone of those events she was set an enormous amount to do by Soumillon & looked more likely to get beat than win until he flicked her in to overdrive then in 1/2 furlong it was clear despite probably being 6 lengths behind she was going to mow them down in a matter of strides.
One of the all time greats that will not be mentioned as 1 in years to come .
At the weights she (Zarkava) comes out 1lb higher than Youmzain on that Arc run. Hardly stuff of legend
Zarkava beat Youmzain in her Arc by 2L receiving 11 lbs / STS beat the same horse in his Arc by 2L receiving 8 lbs. Each won in a their respective race in similar fashion (going was softer in the former).
If the pair had raced in the Arc the following year, Zarkava would have received 4 lbs from STS so maybe there wouldn't have been so much between them (hypothetically of course).
As previously stated, i'm not comparing Zarkava with STS or any previous great of bygone years (I agree with Jair1970 on his point) but in the case of Zarkava vs Goldikova, there's a more 'logical' way of comparison and I maintain Zarkava was by far the better filly (and she proved it twice).
Zarkava beat Youmzain in her Arc by 2L receiving 11 lbs / STS beat the same horse in his Arc by 2L receiving 8 lbs. Each won in a their respective race in similar fashion (going was softer in the former).
If the pair had raced in the Arc the following year, Zarkava would have received 4 lbs from STS so maybe there wouldn't have been so much between them (hypothetically of course).
As previously stated, i'm not comparing Zarkava with STS or any previous great of bygone years (I agree with Jair1970 on his point) but in the case of Zarkava vs Goldikova, there's a more 'logical' way of comparison and I maintain Zarkava was by far the better filly (and she proved it twice).
Geoff m,
I also saw Zakarva for the first time in the Prix Marcel Boussac. I didn't have a bet in the race and probably like many of us
hadn't really considered her anyway, after all she had only won a race for unraced filles to date. What we both witnessed during the final stages of the race was incredible, her turn of foot so impressive, it had been a while since i'd seen such a burst of acceleration by a 2 yr old filly. I made a mental note of her and was hoping she would come across for our Guineas, i've no doubt she would have beaten Natagora.
I also saw Zakarva for the first time in the Prix Marcel Boussac. I didn't have a bet in the race and probably like many of us
hadn't really considered her anyway, after all she had only won a race for unraced filles to date. What we both witnessed during the final stages of the race was incredible, her turn of foot so impressive, it had been a while since i'd seen such a burst of acceleration by a 2 yr old filly. I made a mental note of her and was hoping she would come across for our Guineas, i've no doubt she would have beaten Natagora.
re Goldikova vs Canford Cliffs I would not be so sure CC will prevail. Goldikova can be ridden any way you like but CC is a tricky ride it seems to me and needs everything to go his way - she always finds a way to win. Hopefully they will both be at Royal Ascot the Queen Anne could be the race of the meeting.
A T,You say Goldikova "always finds a way to win"except on the days she gets beat,she could look vulnerable to CC think back to when Rip Van Winkle took him on in the Sussex,of a strong pace Rip goes for home but CC put him in his place in a very imperious manner,are you really so sure wonder horse Goldikova would beat him after all she only just held of Paco Boy at Ascot!
"she only just held of Paco Boy at Ascot"
So. Dick Turpin finished ahead of Canford Cliffs in the guineas. It doesn't work out like that.
So. Dick Turpin finished ahead of Canford Cliffs in the guineas. It doesn't work out like that.
Prima I agree Goldikova is not a wonder horse and I do not rate her amongst the very best milers we've seen. Given Rip V W's overall form last year I would not want to put too much store by CC's win - although it did look good it's a shame that poor scope (which Richard Hannon amazingly predicted! ) ruled him out of the QEII. Hope they meet at Royal Ascot my money will be on the mare.
Dick Turpin is a good horse I think - looking forward to his run at Sandown today.
) ruled him out of the QEII. Hope they meet at Royal Ascot my money will be on the mare.Dick Turpin is a good horse I think - looking forward to his run at Sandown today.
jesus if we cant see that goldikova is far better than the winning margin over paco we need to have a look at these races again. its always easier for a hold up horse with a turn of foot, she went for home over 2f out in the queen anne ffs.
she completely obliterated him and the field in strides in her latest BC mile win, that was an incredible run. she the best miler at the mo imo. canford still has to beat her.
she is of course vulnerable to the ground, she needs it good, if its soft, lay her till the cows come home.
she'll need it good again over 9f to get home in france this yr.
i will admit the horses she beats isnt a list of legends but she can only beat whats in front of her as they say.
makfi beat her because of the ground combined with being a v talented nd under rated horse, who swept aside canford in the guineas, hughes of course ready with the excuses later in the season that he doesnt come to hand early, we shall see if this is true.
hes a brilliant horse and it will be a v interesting race. lets hope they meet. i dont think he'd get by her personally and he'l do well to sustain his run for long enough to beat her but thats just me. he might laugh at her, i really dont know
she completely obliterated him and the field in strides in her latest BC mile win, that was an incredible run. she the best miler at the mo imo. canford still has to beat her.
she is of course vulnerable to the ground, she needs it good, if its soft, lay her till the cows come home.
she'll need it good again over 9f to get home in france this yr.
i will admit the horses she beats isnt a list of legends but she can only beat whats in front of her as they say.
makfi beat her because of the ground combined with being a v talented nd under rated horse, who swept aside canford in the guineas, hughes of course ready with the excuses later in the season that he doesnt come to hand early, we shall see if this is true.
hes a brilliant horse and it will be a v interesting race. lets hope they meet. i dont think he'd get by her personally and he'l do well to sustain his run for long enough to beat her but thats just me. he might laugh at her, i really dont know
RE his beating of rip, rip ran v well that day but i just dont think he ever ran as well as he did as a 3yr old. watch his beating in the sussex of paco boy, absolutely bolted in from the front the whole way and paco couldnt make any impression on him and rip only got a tap with the whip that day.
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