I hear good things about Recital...

It's pretty blue. I still don't fancy it though. I think Seville is their derby horse.

Jim on the Merning Line seemed to behind Rectal this morning.

seemed to be behind ...

If Recital runs in the Ballysax[:p]....if not he is slow to come to hand behind and wont be ready for Epsom which is a big

I know it's a trait of Montjeu stock, and often doesn't mean there will be a reluctance on their part, but this one has a horrible head carraige and been such a large beast I would be very concerned as regards Epsom being it's destination before I backed it AP for Derby. Looks to have big engine though.

Ryan Moore is riding him on Sunday in the Ballysax.

Went close on Master of the Hounds.

Am on at 12s my Derby book with Frankel 25s.

Interesting few weeks to come.

FFS thought Frankel was a cert...?

Some people!

Good horsie but he won THAT French race....

Very excited for Sunday....hopefully he just run right past them 1f out and power to the line.

On to the Derrinstown and hopefully a few more challengers from the Oxx stable can give us a better guide

Provided Frankel runs in the Derby I think he will win, if they make the mistake of not running him then I will still win .... you wont because you are a clown.

eric, you dont  know what your doing do you ? Your so sure Frankel will be heading to the Derby, but your now saying your covering others bets.

You do this kind of thing all the time.

for example, you slate the he-ll out of Willie Mullins and his ability to train Chasers, but yet you go and back one of his in the toughest race of the season, Kempes in the Gold Cup.

You analytical arguments contradict what you bet on. Why ? because the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing.

what would you do without Jim McGrath,eh?

Anyone taking 12/1 Recital needs to stop getting excited about Ryan Moore being booked and it being 'THE Ballysax Stakes' and do a little more research.

2010:  Mikhail Glinka and At First Sight

Mikhail Glinka got injured and ends up winner a Royal Ascot 2 miler  before being sold.  At First Sight runs 2nd in the Derby as an unfancied pacemaker.

2009:  Fame and Glory

Ran a good 2nd in Derby behind legend after being well backed but without stable jockey.

2008: Alessandro Volta, Hebridean, King of Rome

A wonky one that ends up 6th in the Derby, a Group 3 animal and one that came 12th in the Derby with the stable jockey on it.

2007 Macarthur

Decent sort but beaten again in Derrinstown then unsighted til August

2006: Mountain and Attius

The year of Dylan Thomas, these two were substandard competitors.

2005: Almighty

12th in Motivator's Derby

2004:  Yeats
2003:  Balestrini beats Alberto Giacommeti
2002:  High Chapparal
2001:  Galileo

In the last 6 years they've run one solid Group 1 horse in this race and it's influence as an Epsom trial has diminished somewhat.

It's a plus that Recital has gone the same route as Fame and Glory and also a plus that he has travelled early in his career, as this is something that is often done by Ballydoyle with their better animals. And he's won a G1, albeit a soft one.

Negatives include the fact that there are multiple Ballydoyle runners today, suggesting an estimation of pecking order is at play.  He's not closely related to a load of 12f horses either and despite getting 10f as a 2yo, it could be his best trip.  Lodas of soft ground form in his pedigree too.  No idea where he stands in the pecking order in his own stable either let alone amongst the entire 3yo population although one would presume him and Seville are near the top.

For 9 years Ballydoyle have failed to find a horse to win the Derby.  Little yet suggests they have a strong hand this year.  It takes a leap of faith of some scale to presume that Recital is the horse to end the drought.

They are shoyte in the Derby tbh. However remember St Nick made many people's books last season .... something you dont seem to understand.

They are ramped up on here beyond reason imo however you need to use maths, market/press dynamics to your advantage. It isnt a mug punters paradise antepost ... as you are probably finding jairmug1970.

I still see Seville as their derby type. I just don't see Recital as being anything to shout about. In fact i'm more interested in the 240 at Longchamp to see how Maxios runs. I have a couple of bob on Seville for the derby along with another couple of bob on a couple of others. I know they haven't won the Derby for a long time, but they have bumped in to some good ones along the way. I also think their horses run to as much of their potential as other horses in the field in this race(derby). I've no doubt that if they have one good enough it will win. I say that as someone who isn't a fan of theirs. I don't think any of their horses run below form in last years renewal.

I take it you've laid off you're Frankel bets then, Kirk?

No. ... none of it.

Damn knew should have taken the 20s. Taken 8s to go with 12s Havant against the field.

Good maths,  Kirk  [;)]

I cant talk for kirk though, no doubt he would be making it up anyway.

fk me there are some th1cko's on here but you must come out top of them.

Come on Recital....lets get the ball rolling.

As some of you pointed out the previous runners but this guy is like a Fame and Glory type but i think better. Hopefully he go well and get the head in front

People talk about Seville....looks from the market he isn't in the same league as Recital...now nearly double his price.

This horse reminds me much more of the Galileo/High Chap and Fame and Glory winners than the likes Macarthur and Alessandro Volta.

Completely unexposed horse's who come in to their own as 3yr olds....i am very excited

Can you guys not just set up some sort of disagreement/argument thread to talk about/argue about prices. It's tedious when every thread becomes embroiled in the usual suspects arguing about a piss up against the wall competition.

Prarie Star just won that 240 race. I never saw it. If it was a decent race then it obviously pays Recital a compliment. Recital is at 8s now.

Baraan won. My mistake. I'll need to see the race.

Graeme83 totally agree with you. I dont start these spats you may have noticed, they follow me around. I have asked re being allowed to block certain posters from reading my contributions which is the only way stalking can be stopped on here spoiling threads for others. Obviously I am going to give as good as I get but best if Betfair allow a poster to block others reading their contributions if they react badly to them. As of yet I have had no reply to this suggestion to prevent stalking on the Close This Forum thread on Cheltenham forum. imo this would stop the problems and make the forum better for all.

I would block jair1970 straight away from reading my observations and therfore he would lose interest replying to them making the forum a better place however The Community Manager 2 has not responded to this which would make the forum a better place for all of us.

Given a lot to do, jockey didnt know what to do when a lot of ground to make up late, gave him a crack then decided not to give him a hard race didnt get up. That is why jockeys arent brain surgeons.

well...

Ridden for education, but what has he learnt?

Looked a bit leggy for me, but after pulling for 2/3 furlongs followed by a BIG move coming up the homestraight, he'd have needed to be Pegasus to go on again.

Even so, you'd have to be disappointed with that if a backer.

agree he was given alot to do,also entirely  thought he did not look comfortable on the ground

He looked like a jet plane when the handbrake was let off but the fact that Moore could not settle him early and once again dumb dumbs on the pace makers couldn't string them out.

Certainly not giving up but i incredibly disappointed with that return...has he learnt anything?....not so sure

Frankel nothing to worry about there imo.

Need to look at that race again......the fact the pacemaker was still their at the end was it run at a proper gallop?

Eric, if your so sure frankel is so good and will win the derby, why did you save on recital? lets be honest, you are no more the wiser than i am.

I already answered that above irishguy,  er I mean essesguy.

I'd say what O'Brien taught the horse there was how to get beat. Maybe explains the stables poor record in the Derby considering the potential number of runners they have each year.

Eric, i can tell you, you are barking up the wrong tree if you think recital is obriens number 1 derby horse. Frankel will have to wait a while longer to see his main competition, as indeed most of you will as the horse in question has yet to see a race course.
dont count your money yet a while eric.

He backed Recital because he doesn't know what he is doing.

I backed Recital and prepared to accept i've done my cash (in all probability), although he looks very scopey.

You cant post all over thses forums about how confident you are of Frankel winning the Derby and then do and back something else. It's clueless.

* go and back

No immediate comments from Aidan re the defeat so it will be interesting to read what he says tomorrow about the ride or way the race was run.

irish/essexguy ... are you going to say that AFTER every one of his runs?

his horses runs

eric, no, why would i want to do that. if your a good bot i might put you wise before time.

Why would I want to know that? This stable are rubbish re the Derby in none Frankel years imo there is no mystery they are rubbish compared to the likes of Stoutey and HRAC when he has the ammo ... if it had been one of theirs I might have been interested.

However good luck laying all of O'Brien's hyped ones on here as you normally do.

Eric, i only lay the over hyped o'brien horses, the few that im told are not hype I BACK AND BACK BIG.

Well ok so you gave loads of your laying wins back in the last god knows how many years they havent won the Derby after having around 10 hopefuls every year ... the only mystique behind them is they all wear shades at the races and reel in people like you who wont win on average by backing their Derby horses. ... Stoutey and HRAC knock spots off them. This year is special ... Frankel is around and O'Brien cant win it in a normal year.

eric

just a quick question,if frankel is so special(for the derby) as you put it,why do you keep having cover bets on other runners?

Just a question not a dig

I explained that above.

ok thanks,but keep having all these covers surley reduces your winnings.

Eric,havnt you gone nap undle mo for the kentucky derby? you must rate him better than frankel. re your three for the guineas and kentucky derby.
As you can see, uncle mo got beat, so can the mighty frankle.
by the way, out of interest how much do you stand to win on frankel in the guineas and the derby. Just so i know the type of punter im dealing with.

Midas Touch was given a lot to do last season in the Dennistown and still won. They have to give them a lot to do to see what kind of horse they have on their hands. It's now up to peoples interpretation as to what horse he could be. I won't be having a bet on him.

bornis , all=1 ?

I have never mentioned or backed Uncle Mo ... keep taking the medication irish/essexguy.

Just watched it on Racing Post site. Can't see it winning the Derby - quickened up ok at the 2f pole but couldn't maintain it (head carriage suggesste dhe wasn't putting it all in). From 1 1/2f out wasn't exactly making up ground hand over fist and was struggling to get past the Weld horse - then Moore eased down about 100 yards out.

I normally look to place an antepost on the Derby straight after the Grand National - having looked through them all I can only find a couple that I like.

Dubai Prince is the main fancy but at only 12/1 I can't be bothered to back it just now. Plenty of stamina on his dams side and he looked very classy last year - just hope Godolphin don't ruin hm.
Seville is the other but he screasm St Leger to me rather than Derby.

Really like Cassamento but just can't see it staying the trip. Frankel could be anything but at the price I can't be a backer.

I am no Sherlock Holmes but Essexbloke must mean Cherokee Brave as he is the only O'Brien Derby entry not to have yet run. Won't be rushing down the road to back him but you never know....

As for Recital - fresh ot not, first time out or not I didnt like the way he carried his head. Looked awkward to me and if he struggled here imagine what he would be like at Epsom. He won his maiden on good ground so can't really have that as an excuse either. May well improve heaps for that run but O'Brien horses relatively forward this year so can't have him for the Derby.

I always thought Seville looked the most likely Coolmore Derby horse. Improved rapidly in short space of time and will be even better over further. Anyone heard anything about where he might pop up?

I'm hoping he pops up at the Dante.

jonibake irish/essexguy wants to keep the mystique going so he can carry on laying the multiple Derby hopefuls from the stable who may not manage better than a 5th or 6th between them as usual.

Unappealing head carriage - looked like he didn't want to pass horses.

I think he absolutely hated the firmer ground.

just look at him. poor thing looked in pain everytime he had to put his foot down.

That may be but it was hardly a road. Good horses have to be able to handle good to firm.

Eric, i am sorry, i got you mixed up with mayweather. Are you not one and the same?

Yes they are.

By: This user is offline. eric_morris Date Joined: 27 Jun 10
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jonibake irish/essexguy wants to keep the mystique going so he can carry on laying the multiple Derby hopefuls from the stable who may not manage better than a 5th or 6th between them as usual.

But you backed Recital. If you have no confidence in the trainers Derby credentials then why on eart would you back one of his horses ? You did the same thing in the Gold Cup re Willie Mullins. Mental betting.

Graeme83 Date Joined: 21 Sep 07
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Midas Touch was given a lot to do last season in the Dennistown and still won. They have to give them a lot to do to see what kind of horse they have on their hands. It's now up to peoples interpretation as to what horse he could be. I won't be having a bet on him.


That's rather silly.

brother to 1¼m horse and half-brother to a miler...didnt settle thru first couple of furlongs y'day...hard to make a case out for him excelling at 1½m on that basis imo

"That's rather silly. "




Maybe you could elaborate on this. I still don't think i'm wrong.

The idea that trainer and jockey deliberatley give their horses a lot to do.

As I said in an earlier post this horse obviously has a decent engine (quite impressive turn of foot up to the furlong pole) but I cannot think of a horse with such an obvious quirk re headcarraige, notwithstanding 2 Montjeu's have already won the Derby, winning the blue riband. Only hope would be if it came up genuinly soft ground and it won one of these Derby's where by the end of the season the form looks very suspect.

"The idea that trainer and jockey deliberatley give their horses a lot to do."




So you are saying that the good prospects they run at the start of the season at Leopardstown don't get given a lot to do. Maybe you should do a quick bit of research ie. Midas Touch, Recital and Fame and Glory to name a few. They intentionally get pulled in quickly, and give the opponents at least 7 lengths. The only plausible explanation is that they are testing the class of the horse out.

I have problems with your wording Graeme.

There is tactics, whereby you can put a horse at the back of a race and let them finsih from behind.

But to say they deliberately plan to make the race harder for their horse to win is complete nonsense.

Whether or not they use the race as a sighter or prep, they dont intentiaonally employ tactics whereby they diminish the horses chance of winning significantly. That is nonsense.

Ok. They ran pacemakers, and pulled the horse to last from second last, midrace, because they didn't want to give it a lot to do as to attain where it's derby credentials are at. I'll just pretend you're right.

What do you guys make of the fact that he has only drifted to 12/1? I reckon he has the raw materials to be a good horse but it's just of case of can APOB and the team put it all together in time for the Derby.

Alileo - I was surprised by the price, was expecting 20's .. did you read the quotes from Aidan in todays paper ... can you post them up if so... cheers.

Not seen the actual paper but this was on the site:-

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/recital-epsom-derby-leopardstown-banimpire-strikes-in-ballysax/839810/reports/

i have major doubts about him coming down the hill at epsom on quick going

the should hold onto him...Irish Derby, German Derby, Grand Prix De Paris.

hope for softer going.

Horse wont win on anything faster than good.

poor thing suffering on sunday :(

One heavy ground win and the horse is suddenly 'suffering' on decent ground

low class form (80 odd rated hoses finished just behind and in front), dodgy head carriage, hung quite badly when asked to do something, no speed apparent. Looks like a decent outsider for the Melrose at York.

The Derby - who is anyone kidding? I suspect a decent horse will win at Epsom - usually takes a good one to win there - not a lower class dodgepot.

No doubt Aiden will be going on about how he has amazing "natural speed".

Yeah, recently the Derby has had a bit of a surge in quality winners:

Authorized, New Approach, Sea the Stars and Workforce all top notchers.

So are we due a Sir Percy?  (really good miler, poor thing campaigned like a 12f horse after Derby )

Either way Derby winners seldom have CVs including performances such as that by Recital on Sunday.

I've no bets on the horse but it's too soon to write him off as a Derby prospect. The race was run at a good pace and with his extra weight I rate it the same as his Saint-Cloud win. It's disappointing that he showed no improvement and that form obviously isn't good enough to win a Derby but he might just come on a good deal for the run. Derby winners like Workforce, Sinndar, Erhaab and Slip Anchor didn't look obvious Derby winners on their first run of their 3yo season. I'd like to see how he comes out of this race before I rule him out.

Workforce, Sinndar and Slip Anchor all proved well suited by a stiffer test of stamina....i doubt the same will prove true of Recital.

Not before the race they hadn't Duncan. And it's worth baring in mind Recital has won over 10f on testing ground as a 2yo.

His quirkyness and possible liking for a softer surface is more of a concern for backers (myself included) than any stamina worries at this stage,imo. It is only April and the horse has plenty of time yet.

The Derrinstown will need to be won by him.

Obviously not before the race!

the horse WANTS a stiffer test imo. ate up the ground, id be more worried about his attitude.

time will tell, 'buses

I starting to take a more positive look regarding Epsom from that run. He certainly will run at Epsom and AOB said he goes straight to the Derrinstown straight after the result is pleasing to hear as i was extremly disappointed intially

KEEP THE FAITH, this is a very good animal.

Keeping the faith Ernie.....not going to give up

Not too bad a performance?? The 2nd horse is well reguarded, they were going to run him in 2000guineas IRE and think highly of him.

If he hangs to his left like that at Leopardstwon how the heck will he cope with the camber at Epsom? I reckon a broken leg is a more likely outcome than a win

They are obviously going to bring him through on the outside of the leaders as on his first run this season at Epsom now where he made up a lot of ground late. PPower gone strongly against Seville after the race what have they been told?

I thought it was a solid performance Ernie. Nice bit of improvement reversing the form with Regent Street and extending his superiority over Rich Tapestry. Nice step up from Memphis too.

talented horse and beat them much easier than the margin suggests!

just couldnt be backin a horse at those prices that has hung so badly in his last two!

he'll have to be sts to win the derby hanging like that! like many already said, will have to be delivered late!

v nice horse imo but not a betting proposition!

Massively idled in front imo. Made it seem like he hung worse than he did.

I thought it was a really good performance.

I reckon this is definitely O'Brien's number one for Epsom and a bomb waiting to go off. If it rains in the days beforehand he could go off favourite with Fallon on board

Recital.
Well behaved in the parade ring.
Strong head wind in straight at leopardstown today.
Hung all the way up the straight.
Ground was changed to good/firm later in the day.
Thank god I am on Seville for the derby.