Menorah finished for season ?

Nonsense.

absolute tosh, if he was full of whip marks you would no about it.

He'll be alright but they should be mindful about going to the well too often before the Champion Hurdle, I'm sure Hobbs will though, has already said he's not sure about the Bula as he'll have a big penalty

thought it sounded like nonsense aswell tbh.

We'll see him next at Kempton imo

he hit him 7 times hardly whacking the sh it out of him .the christmas hurdle is ideal for menorah speed track fast enough gallop then straight to the champion hurdle .brillant horse

If you were worried about that ride, you are clearly not old enough to remember the way they were ridden in the golden age of hurdling, when the likes of Monksfield, Night Nurse, Lanzarote, Beacon Light and Dramatist all had hard race after hard race. When Night Nurse won his second Champion Hurdle, Paddy Broderick did not flinch from using the whip one bit, and he still won at Aintree 3 weeks later, coming out as fresh as paint.

I know that Menorah is no Night Nurse, but he did not get abused at all imo -  the whips they use these don't have the same capacity to hurt or mark a horse these days and are rightly used less frequently and with far less force - and I believe he will be just as good if not better next time out.
nOne note I would say though - Kempton is about as far away from Cheltenham as you can get in terms of conditions - its a flat fast right handed track. There has to be a chance Menorah will be a false price there as there has to be some doubt he will act as well at Kempton as he so clearly does at Cheltenham.

He didn't even pick his whip up until 150 yards from home. If you consider that a hard race I should find another hobby.

maenorah is 100% genuine and not that flashy, johnson kept him going but it would be unwise to make the assumption that it was too much. honestly it was not as good a race as the one he one at cheltenham and was  very unlucky not to win
a few weeks later.  2/10 imo

Memories come flooding back everytime Menorah is mentioned. I remember seeing him scorch home for Tom and young Patrick Mullins in a bumper at Naas on the August Bank holiday week-end well backed. I remember at the time thinking it was unusual he didn't ride for his old man that day in Cork. He obviously knew he was on a super star.
He was bought privately then for mega bucks for his current owners.
He must have a chance in the CH, what with CD form twice. I would say he will turn out more genuine than Binocular.

cryoftruth, Menorah acted perfectly well around Kempton last Boxing Day. He in fact posted a higher RPR on that day than when winning The Supreme.

biggest load of bull I've read today.

christmas hurdle - kingwell hurdle - champion hurdle imo.

Why would he be more genuine than Binocular? or more to the point,are you suggesting Binocular is ungenuine??

I wouldn't say Binocular is ungenuine myself but consistency would still be an issue imho. If he produced his CH performance this year every time he'd be one of the all time greats by now.

Buddliea, I just feel he is a more consistent horse.

Binocular was good last march but I just think he may have his quirks or may be more fragile.
Was there a reason for his inconsistency?

whatever the problem was with binocular for most of last season...it wasn't anything to do with whether he was genuine or not.....menorah is improving but he's a way off the likes of binocular just yet....and as for menorah being more consistent.....so far in his hurdling career he hasn't managed to string 2 wins together

Well he has had 11 starts over Hurdles.He has won 7,2nd once and 3rd twice,and 5th first time out last season.Inconsistent??
I agree the way he won this season its hard to ever see him losing,but that record is not one of an inconsistent horse.And quirky?? In what way?

duffy hits the nail on the head.... but menorah is a very likeable horse though.

still 8/1 for the champion!  bit skinny

I take on board all your replies but the ground was like glue he was carrying 11-12 and he just got up under the whip.

I watched the horse come back in after the race and he said that was f...in hard work.

What more proof do you want !

Dont think you can blame the horse that much for not stringing two wins together duffy, there were valid excuses, 20F At Donny, not the greatest ride by Johnson at Arsecot and well, id always excuse a narrow defeat after Chelt

Its whether he's good enough............

menorah is a good one alright.Gutsy,jumps well,just a case of how good he is.he certainly wont let anyone down.Good thing about him is he likes big fields and a good pace,which is tailor made for the festival,so you know he will run his race.

Whatever happened to Bobby Ewing? The horse that gave Menorah a tonking at Doncaster last year.

that question is just asking for it[;)]

why won't my winks work?

Bobby said BE had a setback again on the Cheltenham injured thread.


I watched the horse come back in after the race and he said that was f...in hard work.

Wish I could talk to the horses

Apologies, was Ibrahima Sonko who said that about BE

might need 10 runners or more at Kempton for cover and srong pace, could be unlikely.

tatie baron

Your point about Kempton is very fair of course.

I don't doubt he can act on the track since he has done before as you reminded me.

However when a horse appears to run its best ever race at a steep uphill finish on a left handed track and in a big handicap where there is a fair pace, I am still a bit concerned he will run quite as well in a smaller field on a flat right handed track with the distinct possibility of a slow run race. The small field stakes races either over the jumps or on the flat are just a different test of a horse and not all horses are capable of being just as good at both.

does everybody actually rate richard johnson.i have my doubts

On the question people were discussing earlier about Binocular and his reliability relative to Menorah, I would say both horses look genuine enough. Binocular clearly has a lot of class and possibly we will be able to say the same about Menorah in due course. As such, both horses are always likely to need a strong pace to settle well and to be seen at their best in other respects too, not least in their hurdling.

With Binocular, from my notes on what Henderson has said about the horse over the years, I think three things stand out if any explanation is required for the few times the horse has not performed quite as well as expected. First, the point Henderson has made in the past about the horse not necessarily being the easiest to produce right on the day (sometimes the classier the horse, the harder they are to train in some respects. Second. off a modest pace, in races that turn into a bit of a sprint finish, Binocular's turn of foot isn't that potent, or at least that is what the trainer has said on a couple of occasions. Third, the trainer has always said you would see a much better horse on good ground and clearly that is what we saw in last season's CH.

I think Binocular is a fantastic horse and he may well win plenty more good races over the next couple of years. But for the time being, imo, he is going to be over-bet and the value will be in opposing him any time there is a danger he will be undercooked, encounter ground on the soft side of g/s or worse, or not get a decent pace in the race.

In the CH, there has to be a great chance Binocular will be too good for the rest again, if getting similar ground and race conditions this time around. But this time, there is no danger of him being underestimated and he will be there to be shot at by the other jockeys in terms of how they plan their races tactically.

Menorah hurdles well enough, but still some room for improvement there if he is to bridge the gap with a horse like Binocular, among the other ways in which he would need to improve to be top class in the division. I like the horse a lot; I hope he turns out good enough to be able to give a top form Binocular a real test in the CH in March and then (hopefully, with Hurricane Fly also laying down a challenge) we might have another golden generation of two mile hurdlers to enjoy.

the ground done for binocular in his first 2 champion hurdles and if the ground comes up tacky he will get done again. however if he gets decent ground he will go in again.

I'm not at all convinced about the ground for Binocular. He has won twice on soft going and twice on good to soft. It was definitley good to soft on the first day of the festival when he won, and when he lost behind Punjabi. Maybe heavy ground would be a worry but I'm really nor sure about anything else.

The day he lost to Punjabi, I think it was a freak race. The pace was far too strong, all but suicidal and the horses were almost all walking coming up the final hill. Even so Binocular was actually staying on best at the end that year.
I think Celestial thingy was ridden as were a number of others, just to try to get binocular beaten, and it worked of course, but ironically set the race up for Punjabi. It was the way the race was run that year that did it though I think as the groundwas just the same when he trotted up last year.

Cry, The first Day of the festival he was BEATEN by Captain Cee Bee

Top post aka, personally I believe that if a fully sound and fit Hurricane Fly shows up at the Fesival next year he could well blow Binocular away.
Could well be a big if though

The way he won last season,i am inclined to think that something was amiss with Binocular the season before.Connections were amazed that Punjabi was good enough to beat him,and events since seem to back that up.
As for the ground,good is perfect,good/soft is ok,anything worse not so good.
Put it this way,if good/soft or better in March i would fancy him strongly,anything worse i would look elsewhere.