Training methods so different Down Under

Hilarious editing by BF computer of Bart Cumm   ings name

"That was all right, he was never in any trouble," said ****s. "He's up there now in the top four or five but he hasn't won a Melbourne Cup yet. That looks like where we'll go now. We'll think about the Mackinnon if I think he needs to run. He's pretty good, isn't he?"

Nearly choked on my cereal when I read that. He would want to be pretty good alright. Lunatic.

Sandown
The Melbourne Cup seems to usually be run at a slow pace (at least the ones I've watched have been), do you think that method would be so effective if the race was a high tempo Group 1? I have my doubts as in my opinion fast run races generally take their toll. Also, I suppose that if the majority of trainers in Australia are preparing them that way then until a major trainer tries a different approach there is no real evidence to prove it's a better method?

The Melbourne Cup where AOB sent out his horses on a self-destruct mission wasn't run at a slow pace for them

Yeah forgot about that

just watched the Cox PLate, so called Group 1 race worth over a million to the winner

10f race, may as well have put the stalls at the 3f marker, joke of a race.

No wonder they can take the races so quickly, exercise more muscles eating their morning feed.

British trainers could line up a 7f cl2 handicapper and walk away with this prize

"British trainers could line up a 7f cl2 handicapper and walk away with this prize"

So why don't they do so

USA: Connections of Lookin At Lucky were delighted with the condition of the Breeders' Cup Classic second favourite after he completed his final major workout for the race on Monday.
RP site

Interesting to look at the Americans methods of prepping for a big target. About 12 days.So could the aussies be doing the same but using a race instead of a gallop? What do you say AussieInUk?

AussiInUK, Aussies have much better sprinters than we see in the UK, but at any distances 7f+, don't think they really hold a candle on the worldwide scene do they?

When Dermot Weld sent Vintage Crop over for his first Melbourne Cup the Aussie trainers said that the horse had no chance because he hadn't raced for 6 weeks.

He`s running in it! [smiley:crazy]

So You Think duly runs again just 3 days before the Melbourne Cup and wins again and is now a short-priced favourite. Truly amazing and even more so if he pulls it off. Bart C's training methods seem to break the established thinking (European) but it works. Why, how and what are we missing?

No idea what the previous trends for the Melbourne Cup are, but sounds like must be odds-on that the winner uses these prep races as conditioning and will be found having trailed down the field in these trials?

Does anyone have any info on winners of the big trial races and their record in the big one?

Conversely, the winner of the Melbourne Cup in their races during the month leading up to the big race?

Some conditioning races, Cox Plate £1m to winner, McKinnon £334k to winner. And, both over 10f! I believe sprints have been used in the past as a conditioning race for 16f. Also, without checking, I believe that the record of winners/runners from these races in the MC is very good.

The main reason the the lead up patterns are different down under is that the races are actually worth money as opposed to the joke state that UK racing is in where there are only a handful of races worth anything and they are won by Sheiks and Millionaires.

The good horses actually race in front of race fans as opposed to racing fans in the UK just having to listen to an Irishman dribble on about how ruddy fast and brilliant each horse before only ever running in ideal conditions against a bunch of his/her own stablemates.

And thats the end of my rant...

If this beast wins tonight then..................WOW!

interesting that the first 6 home had all won their previous start, so much for the theory that the Aussie runners leave their form behind by winning one of the big prep races.

The likes of Americain and 6th placed Holberg are no more than listed/Group 3 class in Europe, does this not suggest that the Australian middle distances horses would rate no more than 110-112 types if coming to Europe, some 15-20lbs off Group 1 level?

It's a 2 mile handicap, enough said

..... filled with all the top Group 1 middle distance winners in Australia

Not sure that the run of an immature 10f horse giving weight and experience to a seasoned stayer in a 16f handicap is a complete guide to the quality of Australian horse racing Pedro.

Great to seem him try, and he ran a big race, but he couldn't stay.

The record of Aussies coming to the Uk is pretty solid, Choisir, Starcraft, Miss Andretti, Haradasun, Starspangledbanner have all won at the top in recent years...

In saying that at 2000m and beyond there is clearly more depth in Europe.

agree Bog O that the Aussie sprinters different league when they compete in Europe.

But when you think Americain (only 6lbs off top weight Shocking and 3lbs off the remainder) would rank well outside the top 10 (possibly 20) stayers in Europe, and would be something like 8-10 lengths behind if running in an Arc, then that shows the gulf between Australian middle distance horses and those in Europe.

Americain scrambled home by a sh hd against Manighar getting 2lbs in August at Deauville. Luca Cumani must be cursing his luck the latter got eliminated especially as handles softer ground.

6th placed Holberg doesn't even rate Group class in the UK, more listed level than Group 3.

apologies Big O for misspelling your pseudo, no offence

"Americain scrambled home by a sh hd against Manighar getting 2lbs in August at Deauville. Luca Cumani must be cursing his luck the latter got eliminated especially as handles softer ground.

6th placed Holberg doesn't even rate Group class in the UK, more listed level than Group 3."

Manighar did start, he ran 7th, on his soft ground.  Luca isn't cursing anything.

Holberg's only previous run at the distance was where he thrashed that season's St Leger winner.  His and Americain's form at 2000m-2400m isn't relevant to their 3200m ability.  Given the lack of G1 3000/3200m races in Europe outside France, Americain is about as well proven as any older horse around.  Don't bother mentioning unproven 2000-2400 horses.

I don't see that comparative ability has much to do with different training methods. One race proves nothing, anyway. The fact is that the ausssies get their horses hard fit through racing and sharpened over shorter distances compared with the Europeans who prefer to conserve energy and peak for the day. Both methods work. The question is, why do they?

Sandown, the question remains, if most of them are doing it that way, how do you know it works any better, or at least as well?

Figgis

how do you know it works any better, or at least as well?

The aussie racing scene is very competitive, long established and proven in competition in the Far `East and they haven't done too badly when they have sent horses here, have they? Go way back. Have you not heard of Phar Lap? It would be arrogant and patronising to suggest anything other than they know what they are doing.Their training methods are proven. Full stop.we can assume that they know all about European, american methods. How long was it before we used interval training in the UK. Martin Pipe was the first to adopt it wholesale. Now most use it. Knowledge spreads very quickly. So why is still my question.

Sandown, I can't recall too many other horses they've sent here apart from the good sprinters?

I would argue that a few decades ago it was common for Derby prospects to start very early as 2yos and take in quite a few runs in their first season. This was no drawback to success back then, but as it was the norm then what else could it be measured against?

pedrobob Joined: 27 Mar 06
Replies: 746 03 Nov 10 10:39   
apologies Big O for misspelling your pseudo, no offence 


None taken.... you bastrd haha

So You Think is on his way to Ballydoyle now so you will get a good look at him and see if he measures up.

The two that have gone to Aidan so far (SSB and Haradasun) have both won Group Ones over there and this horse is a better horse than them. Timeform 133 at the moment.

Will be interesting to see how he handles the different training methods?

Also interesting to see how long it takes for Aidan to mention his incredible speed and start running him in races that don't suit, ala Starspangledbanner dropping back to 5f....

apologies abj, yes Manighar did run, getting confused with Luca's other oss.

Re your point about lack of G1 3000/3200m races in Europe outside France. There are plenty of 2m Group races (let alone Group 1) in the UK. Americain has never entered any of them, doubt would be good enough.

He had very little trouble handling the incredibly slow Goodwood Cup winning Illustrious Blue...

According to Mosse it's lengths and lengths better than dual Group One winner Gentoo...

agree can't make head nor tail of Gentoo. A 6yo ex-12f handicapper until this summer.