Picture Editor

looked the winner the whole race looks an absolute cracking prospect .

to beat nathaniel after he had debuted you have to think he could be better than frankel

A very good time for a debut run over 1m, just hope it didn't take much out of him.

if it did im sure henry will put him away for the winter

the ground would have been all against frankel when he beat nathaniel.
so i would still say frankel would come out on top.

It looked a good performance on paper but I wonder if the proximity of Nathaniel is making some believe the horse is comparable to Frankel when I doubt they are that close in ability, at least not as 2 year olds.

Nathaniel looks a stayer to me even at this early stage and I wouldn't be sure he improved on his first run behind Frankel, the horse who was 3rd at Newmarket, Genius Beast, was beaten 5 lengths that day and then finished closer to Nathaniel at Doncaster only beaten 1 and a half lengths.

Still a nice performance nonetheless and Queally give him a lovely ride.

i think nathaniel loved the soft ground on his debut and wasnt as good on the quicker ground at doncaster.

Gosden has had a quite a few first time out winners this season in maidens, so perhaps Nathaniel did not improve as much as expected, like PF says.

Johnny Castle might be an example. Was beaten 1/2 length on debut around Sandown, at 12/1, and was then sent off favourite for his next race,13/8,and got beat.

I think Picture Editor and Frankel could be both Group 1 horses.

The big difference between the 2 Cecil horses was that Frankel was " expected" while they didn't appear to fancy Picture Editor to beat Nathaniel. I didn't see the Frankel race but Picture Editor looked quite green and should improve a lot.

pftrader
genius beast may have improved more.

thats why he got closer to nathaniel.

ether way it puts picture editor in a more favourable light if the prices are way out which lets face it they are

Genius Beast may have improved for his first run, Nathaniel may not have it is hard to say at this stage.

Personally I wouldn't be getting carried away with how close Picture Editor finished to Nathaniel as a measure of how good the horse is in comparison to Frankel

i would.
frankel was quite fancied.

picture book wasnt quite so.

3.10 Leicester.

Hurricane Guest ran yesterday imo

Looks a tough task today

Pays more than the high street banks

Not much to say really, other than the horse looks in rude health and a fascninating prospect for next year. Was 1/14 today and won like it, half the track.

I know he beat nothing but it was a visually taking display, cruising along all the way and coming clear at will on that testing ground to win by 30 lengths. It taught us very little, other than his wellbeing, but I cannot wait to see this colt over middle distances next year. The Zetland Stakes at Newmarket at the end of this month looks the next logical step, though I see that has been downgraded from a Listed status to a conditions race; other than that, the Criterium de Saint-Cloud (10f) or the Criterium International back over a mile could other options, should they want to pitch him in at Group 1 level this year, and it isn't as though Aidan O'Brien has anything of note to send over there as has been in the case in previous years (Fame And Glory, Jan Vermeer etc.).

I wouldn´t be surprised if Picture Editor ends up being Henry Cecil´s Derby horse. Frankel will of course go to Epsom if he runs well in the Guineas and he could be something special but I just have a feeling that PE could also be very good. On breeding I would be much more certain of PE staying the Derby trip and at 20-1 he looks a good ew bet. I´ll be all over him if Frankel bombs in the Dewhurst.

He won by around 42 lbs and had at least 8 lbs in hand. He beat a 62 rated horse having its third run so could be therfore rated at around 112. not bad, but still some way to go.
Incidentally he is not bred to stay as well as Frankel is because at least one half sib, bred in very similar lines (by Danehill) only got a mile.

Given the time of the race in comparison to the 70 rated 3yo winner of the seller in the race before all I would take from the performance yesterday is the fact the horse's four legs all point in the right direction

Anything can look good beating trees

Really like the horse though not sure if he's a derby horse. He is following the same route as twice over did by going for the zetland. I would then think he will go for the Dante. I think the type of good horses henry has end up 1m 2f horses as opposed to the derby distance - aviate bullet train timepiece twice over come to mind. Hope I'm wrong though!

This is now best priced 16-1 3rd Fav for the derby probably to do with Henry mentioning the St James's Palace for Frankel.

How can this one be between 10 and 12s for the Derby, 14s in a place? Has everyone lost their senses?

yUP.

This is Cecil/Juddmonte's Derby horse. Frankel won't run at Epsom - Cecil has expressed doubts and when he feels that way he does not take chances.

eric

I am with you on this I must say.

Picture Editor is a nice looking unbeaten colt with bags of potectial. However he hasn't run a race that would be within 2 stones of a good Derby winner yet.

Then there is the problem with the Derby trip. There are at least 2 half siblings, bred on very similar lines to Picture Editor, that have never stayed 12 furlongs, and one, Multiplex, appears to be a miler.

so trying to work out value, he is maybe 2/1 to stay the trip, and about 20/1 to be rated in the high 120's. He is probably 1/4 to be fit and well next season.

So for value you would need, at least 50/1! I don't think I'll be rushing in at 14,s myself.

Of course Picture Editor could be a top class horse at 12 furlongs and he is trained by an up and coming trainer

Would Picture Editor have beaten Casamento in the Racing Post Trophy? If not why is he the same price for the Derby .... most puzzling antepost price around at the moment as if HRAC had been confident enough to run him against animals of higher class for the first time resulting in a likely 5th'ish in the RPT he would be around 33s right now.

Easy option taking on these 2nd raters after skipping the Racing Post Trophy will he shorten for the Derby for beating them? Surely anything less than a 3 length win will see him lengthen from the 10s and 12s. Doubt it though think he will artificially become even shorter.

Can't recall any decent horses taking in this race...can't be that well thought of...maybe a Leger hoss...

Twice Over turned out to be pretty good

Twice Over, 17 runs when not a 2yo. How many were further than 1m2f ? None.

eric

I am struggling to understand your last post

I was pointing out that far from any decent horses running in this race, as S&C mentioned in the previous post, the Cecil camp actually ran a subsequent multiple group 1 winner in this when he was a 2yo. A horse that, as I recall in his 2yo days,  was their big hope for the following season.

So I wouldn't be put off by the fact that Picture Editor turns up here rather than running in the Criterium at Saint Cloud which was reported as the alternative engagement for the horse.

3.45 ZETLAND STAKES

This race looks set up for Picture Editor, unbeaten after two runs and a win over distance.
Thought that Defence of Duress would be the one to test him after beating Little Rocky who ran a good 2nd to Stoute’s hotpot Sea World a few days ago.
That one didn’t declare at 48 hour stage so it maybe down to Godolphin to test the fav with Shooting Gallery.

There are a few reasons not to back Picture Editor.
1. Penalty carriers have won only 3 races from 11 races when a penalty was carried.
2. Usually past winners have just won a maiden race, and only 5 winners from 28 races had won a race other than maiden. ( 3 of those include a hcp race)
3. Only 3 past winners of the 28 races won more than ONE race. Two of those were pre 1986 (when it became listed ) and other won Listed race in 2000.
4. The winner of the Leicester 10 furlong race has provided ONE winner, Adnaan 1998 who won it on fouth attempt to break his maiden for John Dunop.
5. Apart from Adnaan three other winners of Leicester 10f race failed – Philanprophy 2005 (unplcd), Sunday Symphony 2004 (unplcd), Cohn Blue 2003 (2nd).

Reasons to back Picture Editor.
1. Twelve of the 28 winners had won over 9 or 10 furlongs
2. Nine favs have won. The two shortest price winners (Evens and 4/5) were both trained by Cecil (his only wins of this race)

Previous Cecil runners in race.
1982 WON Evs fav Form 4111 (hcp wins)
1984 Unpl 4/1 Form 120
1985 Unpl 8/1 Form 210
1988 Unpl 5/2f Form 211
1990 3rd 11/4 Form 1
1992 Unpl 13/8f Form 211
2007 WON 4/5f Form 1
2010 ? 4/6f Form 11

Nothing else really stands out this year but I wouldn't want to take an odds on price

PFTrader ... it was in the context of the Derby trip HRAC running him in this instead of the Racing Post Trophy.

2yr olds who run this race are thought of more as over 1m 2f horses.


yeah twice over didnt but the plus here for picture editor is he does look more of a stayer and despite what the breeding exdperts say there is a chance that shirley valentine has got a goodun here.

looked all @ sea.
dissapointing effort.

No hope and Bob Hope the Derby.

I think some people are just associating Abdullah horses with Workforce and Frankle and hoping another right good one is just around the corner.

I would imagine that this was Picture Editor's best performance yet - shows how much hype there has been. However he may yet prove a decent horse, these very late season races can be misleading.

leger written all over it imo and would have hated that tacky ground
yesterday.

Isn't there a stat about derby horses running/winning over further than a mile at 2 ?

Graeme83 Joined: 21 Sep 07
Replies: 5940 30 Oct 10 16:22 
I think some people are just associating Abdullah horses with Workforce and Frankle and hoping another right good one is just around the corner.

Stupid comment. If people are associating Khalid Abdullah, an owner who's been around since the 60's or 70's, with Workforce & Frankel then they're new to this.

Even ppl that are new to the game have heard of the likes of Dancing Brave, Danehill & Commander in Chief. Or more recently, midday, twice over, rail link, your make it out like this chap has only a couple of horses in his yard. He has hundreds & they're all bred to be potential champions.

Picture Editor's rating well below what I expected after promising Doncaster debut. Doubt very much this is an Epsom Derby winner waiting to happen. Ground was soft without being extreme, would expect a potential classic winner to have got through it and put the front pair to bed.

Unless they have a newcomer waiting in the wings, only 1 likely Derby winner in the Cecil yard and that's Frankel

"Stupid comment. If people are associating Khalid Abdullah, an owner who's been around since the 60's or 70's, with Workforce & Frankel then they're new to this. "




Many people think about the here and now, and not 30 years ago. As Abdullah has some nice horses and has won big races this season so i do feel that punters will be looking at his colours and wondering what else he has because of Frankel and Workforce. Maybe you think there's a derby thread about picture editor and sea moon for the derby because of Dancing Brave and Danehill ?

I am not sure about the St Leger for Picture Editor. He weakened at the end of the 10 furlong race and there is a doubt on breeding that he would get 12 furlongs rather than then the nearly 15 furlongs needed to win  the Leger.

Anyway, on the evidence of the racecourse he is yet to prove he could win a group 3 race let alone a classic.

As pedro says, it was disappointing after his promising debut, he just hasn't improved on that debut run at all, in fact I rate it a couple of pounds worse, which adds to my belief that the much bandied about phrase "will improve for the run", is nothing but a guess, as many young horses don't progress. It's a poor sign when one doesn't improve from its debut so imo Picture Editor can be scratched from any classic hopes.

he weakened at the end of a ten furlong race because he hated the ground imo and having shirley heights as a damsire gives him every chance of staying the leger trip again imo.

No chance of getting the Leger trip based on his last run imo.

the wrong ground can stop anyhorse anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

He wont get 1m4f tbh will he, well not in front of anything Group 1 or even 2 standard anyway.

Many people think about the here and now, and not 30 years ago. As Abdullah has some nice horses and has won big races this season so i do feel that punters will be looking at his colours and wondering what else he has because of Frankel and Workforce. Maybe you think there's a derby thread about picture editor and sea moon for the derby because of Dancing Brave and Danehill ?

I also mentioned some of the princes here & nows, Twice over, Midday i think i said. True, Picture Editor & sea moon are of no relation to Dancing Brave or Danehill, but Frankel is & thats the beauty of abdullahs Juddmonte Farm. You can't say these legends are of no importance, it's because of these that abdullah can breed champions and has done for decades.

The ground wasn't that soft though TLP. On reflection though I was foolish to say he won't win a group 1, I was falling into the same trap as a few on here who seem to think group 1 3yos are all obvious from their 2yo careers. I doubt too many on here were backing Arctic Cosmos for the Leger after he finished 4th in a Redcar maiden.

correct figgis but it wsa tacky and sometimes that can be worse than soft some horses just cant handle it he looked a diffent horse on the fast ground at donny as did frankel.

Yet Frankel has handled all sorts of ground including soft on debut, good to soft/tacky on final start, slower than Good at Ascot, Good at Doncaster.

Yet to tackle any ground with firm in it, but has proven he can handle anything else.

Hence disappointing that Picture Editor was not up the challenge on Saturday. If he was a Derby winner, should have managed it against probably listed/Grp 3 (at best) class opponents.

Faster ground might result in a better pace for Frankel, and him settling better. Heaven help the rest if that should happen.

I reckon still Picture Editor will prove very useful at 3. Although he hasn't proven much yet, I am of the belief that when henry cecil says a horse was over the top in the Zetland, and that he will be okay next season, you can pretty much rely on him being a much better horse next year.

I would have him down as an interesting contender for races like maybe the Eclipse - he might just be that good. A lot to prove though of course.

Regards Frankel the Timeform rating of 133p is very high. If he improves as Timeform predict, he will be almost unbeatable by anything I know in training anywhere. heaven help the rest indeed. A rating of 140 is almost what Timeform seem to be expecting already. This is a rating of great horses, not just very high class ones.

.

Unless he was out on the pop the night before Picture Editor is less likely to get a mile and a half than Frankel imo.

As mentioned above the horses in front didnt look special at all.

keep saying frankel will get a mile and a half eric (he will).lol
only joking maye happy new year to you and all posters on the AP forum

and you mate Happy New Year

He would have got 1m 2f as a 2yo little doubt he will get 1m 4f at 3.

Picture Editor jt 10th fav for Epsom currently 25s.

Lots of Wiseprice backers waiting on this one, might take a picture editor to get him in the frame at Epsom.