KAUTO STAR

Very good horse, wont win this season, should bow out at Kempton, as for gold cup winners, wasnt as good as best mate.

Better horse than Best Mate for me, some of those Best Mate beat were trees in comparison to the horses Kauto has beaten at different distances, the biggest compliment I could pay to Kauto is that after he pissed all over Voy Por in the Tingle Creek I wanted to see him race Moscow Flyer at 2 miles.

agree with neil, would not get close to Kauto.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, as I don't follow this horse much :| but hasn't Kauto Star won 2 Gold Cup's? one of them being the highest mark ever? I think he also came second in one of the most gruelling Gold Cups of all time? That race being only time he has ever been beaten in a Grade 1 when completing. 

My personal view is he made a mistake this year, all horses can make mistakes even the best. His jumping has been serene for quite awhile now since the noseband was fitted. Here's hoping he is spot on for the King George.

As for 2011, I think we'll have a new Gold Cup winner and usher in a new era for Staying Chasers.

Yep, looking forward to Weird Al being crowned the the Gold Cup winner CV.

You mean Joncol of course Gunny. Time we won the bloody thing WOA seems like half a decade ago :)

Kauto has never raced against any great horses other than Denman who has beaten him in 2 Gold Cups before going on to be stuffed at Aintree normally. Great speed horse and needs the right pace and going at Cheltenham to beat handicappers.

kauto fell at exeter early in his carear and ruby got back on board

Denman, Neptune Collonges & Exotic Dancer are not exactly handicappers.

Denman was the only great horse he has met and he beat Kauto in 2 of their 3 meetings as staying chasers, his defeat coming after a heart problem and tactically strange ride which never put Kauto's jumping under pressure.

C'mon Kauto fell in the gold cup, so by your logic Snoopy Loopy is better than Kauto because he won the Betfair Chase a few years back.

I'm certain Denman wouldn't have beaten Kauto in the gold cup had the latter not fallen, Denners left himself at Newbury. Fantastic horse the he was, that 2nd Hennessy win is without doubt the best race I've ever seen.

It's a shame that people love to knock great horses rather than celebrate them. I feel privilaged that I've witnessed horses like Istabraq, Moscow and Kauto. A pity others dont.

Treat yourselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM9dkJrtMQ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh0BKgmx0VM

I couldnt agree more

I think most people will only truely appreciate what a great horse Kauto is when he is no longer around.

Cast your mind back to War of Attritions 2006 gold cup win & what a poor field that was.

Beef or Salmon was fav 2006 and the same year Kauto demolished him by 20+ lengths at Haydock. The gulf in class between those horses staggering.

Denman, a great himself, in a career best performance remains the only horse to beat Kauto Star in a grade 1 chase when completing, that is a staggering level of talent.

Nobody said he wasn't a great horse but without fences they call it flat racing. Denman was the better staying chaser when well as their record against each other shows however Kauto is the most versatile horse at the top level you could hope to see and a greater King George horse you won't see.

Denmans amazing Hennessy victories also surpass anything over 3m+ Kauto has achieved as a staying chaser.

kauto star

193 king george 2009
186 gold cup 2009

Denman

182 Hennessy 2009
182 Gold cup 2008

the ratings say kauto star has ran better races than denman has ever ran over 3m+

Denman is an amazing horse and will be down in history as he should be with his performances he put in over the years but kauto star has it all in black and white more grade ones more gold cups better ratings i think denman will be remembered the same as Mill House an amazing horse who would have won all the best races over and over if only there wasnt a superstar at that time.

Denman is a great horse and im not saying he isnt but to say he surpass anything kautos done over 3m+ is a stupid statement in my eyes and i hope Denman wins the Betfair chase this year.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 95 21 Aug 10 21:06   


Denmans amazing Hennessy victories also surpass anything over 3m+ Kauto has achieved as a staying chaser.



quite simply .... b0llox

I think I already said it is two wins to Denman and only one to Kauto and that being when Denman had a heart problem and was ridden totally against his own strengths as a result. If anyone is Mill House over staying trips 3m+ it is Kauto.

I don't get this obssession with whos best, Kauto or Denman, it comes up over and over again. They are both wonderful horses with very different attributes and strengths - enjoy them

eric i dont wanna argue over this as its a subject that can go on and on but apart from picking out that kauto won a gold cup denman won a gold cup and then the other time kauto star fell in a race that denman still couldnt win can you back your statements up with a bit of detail please.

Other than the facts what else is there?  Denman was the better staying chaser though he wouldn't have beaten Kauto for speed in a King George obviously. I can only repeat the facts re their meetings again and yes jumping is an important part of jump racing.

At trips over greater than 3m where his speed comes less to the fore and his stamina and jumping are tested more he has lost 3 of his last 4 runs falling in only one of those. His win was against an ill Denman ridden totally against his own strengths and his only other win over a staying trip he beat handicappers in a weak Gold Cup.

Kauto has won 15 from 19 runs at distances up to and including 3m but only 2 from 5 runs at staying chase distances greater than 3m.

Up to and Inc. 3m : 80% winning rate

At greater than 3m : 40% winning rate

You decide.

yapping to yourself auld son

Answering kauto kauto ... You mouthing off?

nice research eric, now whilst your looking up things find the news clips of qoutes from Ruby Walsh

2008 gold cup quote from ruby stateing kauto didnt feel right on the first circuit and that his pre race injury took effect.

2010 gold cup how he felt they was going a slow gallop the first few fences up to his first mistake were he nearly landed on top of carruthers the fence before which might have put kauto off at the next one causing him to wind himself on the fence.

end of thread for me eric but it was a nice discussion with yourself and hope for pleasant and happy punting on here for yourself.

Come off it ... You win money using facts not listening to jockeys who ride the horses.

Good luck mate ... Best not to listen to jockeys but to form your own opinions based on fact and the facts show Kauto is predominantly a speed horse whose qualities are diluted when he has to bring more stamina and jumping ability to the table over trips greater than 3m especially when there is a pace on as the jockey wants to save his speed.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

By the way, I too thought Denman's heart injury was a lot worse than it actually is.

Read this, http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/feb/02/denman-return-action-newbury-vet...

02/denman-return-action-newbury-vets-heart-condition

t-condition

Regardless of trying to work out how bad his heart was, you can be certain he wasn't ridden to his strengths in that Gold Cup and handed it to Kauto on a plate by not setting his usual lung busting pace from the front and putting Kauto's jumping and 3m+ stamina under pressure. Only connections know why Denman was ridden totally against his strengths in that race, heart or tactics. If the latter it would be the strangest decision ever.

Agree with that. Thing is though, despite how serious it was, doubt connections at that time (coming off the Kempton defeat) would want to put him through such a demanding race from the front. Probably knew he wouldn't improve enough to beat Kauto (that year), so decided to make best of the situation. Would have been pointless giving him an attacking ride from the front only to end in defeat, and potentially damage the horse further. Obviously had their eyes on the Hennessy comeback and another shot at the GC in 2010.

Also, must wonder, connections probably didn't even know exactly how much of his ability had been retained after his disappointing return.

if both at their best,a win double of kauto winning the king george and denman winning the gold cup would be a winning bet imo,anyone think differently??

Head above the parapet time but I think Kauto is far from being a hot favourite for the King George.

I was there last Christmas and yes it was one of the most breathtaking victories I've seen in a Gp1 race on either flat or jumps. However, an hour or so earlier, Long Run dotted up in the Feltham doing handstands and he's a younger horse that can only get better after a proper off-season's rest.

Yes Bud, me.

I only came on this thread to see what people were opinioning Kauto for the coming season, and am absolutely gobsmacked to find people are still trying to argue the Denman thing for goodness sakes give it a rest.

Kauto was not right in 2008, he had a bruised foot which was incurred a couple weeks before the race.

Denman had heart trouble in the summer of 2008 but which has totally been documented that he was fully recovered come the 08/09 season start, winning the Hennessy again as he had done the year before. He was fully fit and well when 2nd to Kauto in the gold cup of 2009 and no one can argue this, apart from just sheer blindness for the horse you love, they saying does go love is blind!

Kauto wins the Gold cup 2009 as he would have done in 2008 if it was not for the injury he sustained, after all, despite what you denman lovers out there say, denman was stopping up the hill, Kauto did get the deficit down from over 15 lengths rounding the top bend to just over 7 lengths come the line in 2008 and this performance in 2009 proved his well being and his ability to win a gold cup.

Kauto wins a King George, well walks a King George in 2009 should i say and will do again this coming season.

Kauto in this years gold cup is absolutely hacking, hard on the bridle, then makes a almighty breath stopping error at a plain fence on the 2nd circuit (i think it was approx' 5 out??) and is clearly not right after this, Ruby tries his best to nurse him back but he is finished, and ultimately falls 2 fences later. Imperial Commander goes on to win beating Denman, would Kauto have won it with a clear round of jumping, nobody knows, but for sure, he would have been very very close!

This year i am predicting a place lay of Denman in this years hennessy, a bank job back of Kauto in the KG and only a small bet on Kauto for the gold cup, but i cant see this, as at 12, he is probably going to be too old now, but still would be fantastic to see.

Don't think I will be touching Long Run with the jockey up at his likely prices next season. Let me down in a double with Special Duty his jumping needs to improve drastically I wonder if they have decided to school him over uk fences at home, bizarre if not.

Also don't think this needs to become a Kauto or Denman fanboy thread. Think we are just looking at Kauto in more detail and in particular his record over distances greater than 3m where he only has a 40% winning rate and has also lost 3 of his last 4 runs. This means we can dispute whether he is the greatest staying chaser of this time when there is another great horse with a better head to head and handicap record over these longer trips. At peak and ridden to their strengths I would take Denman to beat Kauto in a Hennessy off levels or in a Gold Cup as the facts tell me he would win. Over 3miles or less I would always take Kauto to beat Denman. Denman seems on the decline now and it is likely the younger crowd will be taking over come March.

id like to see long run in champion chase,i think hes got plenty of toe an the quicker he goes the better he jumps imo but yes the jockey isnt the best around to say the least m8

Nice eric 

Sea the stars,then you would lose money.
I am in absolutely no doubt that Denman is the horse that is more suited to the gold cup conditions.Think we all agree that kauto is more suited to the king george.
And you need to watch the last Gold Cup again mate.You have just described a race that i did not see!!!

No, i watched that race over and over again, your the blind one mate, he was cantering and enjoying himself before the blunder. A blunder that would stop anything in its tracks! Denman lovers will be crying this year, he i feel will be the first of the two to go into the decline due to age. He is not a tank, he is a horse for goodness sakes!

They are both very good horses in their own right, and both very different, no denman could not win a KG and Kauto could not win a hennessy but they both have won a gold cup, what does that tell you about the race? It suits all kinds basically, it is the championship race of our sport, the FA cup final if you like.

He was probably referring to the fences you referred to in this year's GC. Think you messed up the chain of events. Don't think anyone disputes that Kauto was travelling well before his error. Wouldn't have certainly beaten IC though.

Perhaps I was watching another race, but in my opinion Kauto was not enjoying chasing after the "Tank" in the GC. He ran pretty much the same way he did when he was beaten behind Denman in 2008; jumped poorly, dropped a leg, and then fell. There is something about Denman that KS does not like, and it upsets his rhythm and jumping.
If Kauto and Denman are in the same race - lay Kauto.

Kauto should win the King George this year, horses for courses...

Wayward Lad, without wasting much more time on this, your last post it complete and utter bullsh1t. Kauto cruising before his mistake this year, mistake had nothing to do with Denman whom he enjoyed crusing past "at Leisure" and jumping them all into the ground last year.

Horses are not machines they make mistakes, have off days etc.. all 3 of the best made mistakes last year IC, Denman and Kauto. People trying to make definitive answers about horses that race eachother so rarely is nonsense.

Honestly STS,look at where he made the mistake again and tell me who is blind,or maybe forgetful!!On the 1st circuit mate, and i would expect most horses to be still going well on the 1st circuit of a gold cup let alone one of the class of Kauto!!

We can all say what we like,but to me had Denman been in the same condition in his last 2 gold cups as he was in his 1st one,i have no doubt at all he would have won 3,and then their would be no argument.

Yeah but bud you're taking the horses career best performance and saying if he repeated his career best he'd have won two more. What happens if he met Kauto on his best day?

The point is horses are not machines and they only produce their best at different times so accurate comparisons on such few meetings is almost impossible. I gave up the argumentative comparisons between them, I rather just celebrate their great performances without need to bring up the other.

I know mate,but my original point was both at their best,i would have Kauto for the KG and Denman for the GC.Thats all i meant,and like you i celebrate their performances.I was lucky enough to have witnessed the best live performances i have ever seen from a chaser.Was at Newbury for Denmans 2nd Hennessey and Ascot when Kauto won before chelt in 2008.Both superb performances in different ways,but equally as impressive.

I predict there will be further evidence this season Denman is better over staying trips in the horses they have beaten when well.

Both brilliant horses, of course. Such sharp contrasts between the two that it makes for plenty of interesting discussion.

A big part of Kauto's brilliance, imo, has been the ease and fluency of his jumping when conditions have allowed him to get into a good rhythm. A case could perhaps be made for saying that it is the economy and smoothness of his jumping, at its best, that has been a big factor in enabling him to see out the trip so well in his major victories in the staying division. In other words, he may not be the most obvious stayer or the most stamina laden top three miler we have seen over fences, but that is compensated for to a large extent by what he conserves and gains through the high quality of his jumping when in the groove, as he was most brilliantly in the King George last December.

If a horse doesn't jump well, as we know, it quickly saps the strength and, more importantly, disrupts the breathing in a way that is very hard to recover from in terms of maintaining a winning chance in a race. Some horses seem to be able to clout fences and not be quite as badly affected by it as others, though that observation would probably be hard to prove. It may be that the physically more imposing or more stamina laden horse is able to compensate better for the weakening effect of clouting a fence and struggling on in the race with some temporary loss of breathing efficiency.

In Kauto's case, in order to shine over the extended three miles on the stiff track in the Gold Cup, it is probably particularly important that he accesses and maintains the impressive rhythm and cleanness that is the hallmark of his jumping at its best. That puts him up against it a bit at Cheltenham, a track which provides such a unique and difficult test of jumping in the sense that, as others have said, the undulations make it harder for a horse to get balanced at the fences, the distances between the fences is not as regular as at some other tracks, the underfoot conditions can be quite different between contrasting sections of the course and for obvious reasons the pace of the race can change quite sharply between the uphill and downhill stretches.

For a horse that gains so much from the efficiency and brilliance of his jumping when finding rhythm, it could almost be said that Kauto has run with remarkable credit to perform as well as he has in three of his four Gold Cup runs at Cheltenham. He jumped very well in his two Gold Cup victories, though perhaps not quite as brilliantly as he has done in some of his King George wins. When he lost to Denman in the Gold Cup, he either wasn't jumping at his best or, depending on how you see it, he was forced out of rhythm on the second circuit by Denman's awesome galloping from the front. In the last renewal of the Gold Cup, it was a juddering mistake Kauto made on the first circuit and any horse would have done exceptionally well to recover fully from that. But even a lesser mistake at one of the fences would have loaded things against Kauto somewhat in the sense that, arguably, his ability to compete against the very best staying chasers (Denman and possibly now Imperical Commander)over an extended three miles on a stiff track, very much does depends on maintaining an almost perfect rhythm through the race.

I accept that to win any race over fences clearly a horse has to be in fairly good rhythm. But in Kauto's case, what I am suggesting is that it is the exceptionally good rhythm of his jumping at its best that, more than anything, has enabled him to compete so effectively overall against a horse like Denman who has a little more physical scope and is possibly the more obvious staying type, or against Imperial Commander who is a horse that I would say has many of the attributes to be very effective at Cheltenham in particular. If anything at all is taken away from the normally exceptionally good rhythm of Kauto's jumping, he  is possibly not quite a strong enough galloper over extended distances to compensate for the advantage lost when racing in top company. Some top class staying chasers have lacked a degree of fluency at their fences (they certainly didn't ping their fences in the way Kauto is able to at his best), but they were able to compensate for that slight limitation through the sheer power and muscularity of their galloping over extended distances.

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying that Denman is the better staying chaser than Kauto, but in terms of competing in the Gold Cup I think Kauto has always been slightly more up against it than perhaps would have been the case with some of the other really brilliant winners of the race we have seen over the years. That Kauto has won so often at top level in his career, under quite varying conditions not all of which would have been most in his favour, is perhaps the biggest compliment you can pay to the class of the horse.

Kauto's jumping in the King George last year came as close to perfection as anything I have seen in over forty years following the sport. Denman's run at Newbury was remarkable in its own right too. Fascinating that we can have two horses so brilliant in the same division, yet very different in their attributes and mode of winning races.

excellent post aka

Excellently put aka - well done. I have nothing more to add.

Nice well written opinion there aka.

My belief is that since Nicholls has figured out how best to train Kauto ie. run fresh and with a noseband he's won 4/5 grade 1 races with flawless jumping being a key part in it (partocularly at Haydock).

The Gold Cup was just a blip that could happen to any horse, it happened so early and at a sedate pace that no conclusions can really be drawn as we've yet to see him race since.

I feel earlier in his career Nicholls and Smith felt the gulf in talent between him and other horses was so large that he could run regularly at any distance and win.

This belief and almost overconfidence was only shattered in emphatic style by a career best performance from the Great Denman. Which caused the trainer to fit a noseband to help the horse concentrate at fences. The subsequent loss at Haydock lead to the trainer switching tactics to run the horse fit and fresh. Which has lead to the two career best and course best OR's at Cheltenham and Haydock.

So to me there remains no evidence that the horse, now an exceptional jumper and when run fresh is anyway less effective in the Gold Cup than he is in the King George.

You simply can't derive any conclusive opinion based on only a solitary loss when completing in a Grade 1 chase, a loss which resulted in changes that brought about a stones improvement in the horse.

Maybe some exceptions on here but oddly, I don't think I ever met anyone who backed Denman for the 08 Gold Cup and now believes Kauto is better?
I hope they retire Kauto this year with either 5 KGs or 3 GCs.
I think he deserves the lot and should go down in history.

Good post AKA,
And the following you wrote is more or less what i mean when i say Denman is more suited to the conditions of a Gold Cup than Kauto.

In Kauto's case, in order to shine over the extended three miles on the stiff track in the Gold Cup, it is probably particularly important that he accesses and maintains the impressive rhythm and cleanness that is the hallmark of his jumping at its best. That puts him up against it a bit at Cheltenham, a track which provides such a unique and difficult test of jumping in the sense that, as others have said, the undulations make it harder for a horse to get balanced at the fences, the distances between the fences is not as regular as at some other tracks, the underfoot conditions can be quite different between contrasting sections of the course and for obvious reasons the pace of the race can change quite sharply between the uphill and downhill stretches.

Just because the track and trip may not be ideal for Kauto it does not mean he wouldn't be good enough to beat any horse in training there. We have such little evidence to support these negative claims.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 109 04 Aug 10 22:57   
Ruby can say what he wants. Kempton is not an undulating track like Chelts and he has always struggled jumping around there at Championship pace excuses aside. If the ground is not fast there his jumping is tested more.

Queen Mother fall, dodgy jumping behind Denman, this years fall and 2 Gold Cup wins. He does not like jumping around Cheltenham, an undulating stamina laden track ignore the evidence if you want.

eric_morris Joined: 27 Jun 10
Replies: 110 21 Aug 10 23:00   
At trips over greater than 3m where his speed comes less to the fore and his stamina and jumping are tested more he has lost 3 of his last 4 runs falling in only one of those. His win was against an ill Denman ridden totally against his own strengths and his only other win over a staying trip he beat handicappers in a weak Gold Cup.

CV,i aint really arguing with anyone as such mate,or did not intend to anyway.Just voicing my opinion.

He can't afford to make a mistake at Cheltenham, he must be flawless to win another GC

CV,like i say mate,not really arguing as such,but some may well say that comparing Kautos kempton performances to his Cheltenham performances does in fact provide evidence that he is less effective at Cheltenham.He has been virtually flawless at Kempton,and certainly has not been at Cheltenham.

I'm also in the camp that he's always going to be less effective in a Gold Cup than a King George,

His form over undulating tracks (Cheltenham/Exeter) is 22F121F... but it must be remembered his first second he remounted, so actually fell 3 out of 7 times he's run over an undulating tracks. The two times he's won were the two gold cups. First time he beat Exotic Dancer by under 2l when he'd hammered him by 8l at Kempton. Second time it was run at a crawl and its hard to rate the race to be honest as Denman ran nowhere near his best/was not in a position to do so and Neptune Collonges injured himself in the race.

On the other hand outside undulating tracks he's been imperious with form of 1111111211121U111.... with the 2 defeats coming at Aintree.

Those are the facts and you can argue otherwise - but everything points to Kauto Star being a better horse at tracks such as Kempton where he can get into a rhythm than at tracks like Cheltenham

.... Yes also his winning rate drops to half that at 3 miles and under when he has been asked to go over further staying trips suggesting also he is not a natural stayer when his speed is blunted.

First of EC you say "those are the facts". I have a masters degree in statistics and I know exactly how selective statistics can be. You can pick out any pattern you like and ignore ones you don't like. We had the left handed right handed argument with him until that stat was ruined by his Gold Cup and Betfair chase wins last year.

To pick apart your stats, the first Exeter races was his 2nd race in England back when he was a 2mile novice. The second was fto AND first race back after inmjury. Making those two totally useless.

The next was an early fall at Cheltenham in the Champion Chase, incidents like this happen in Champion Chases, see Moscow Flyer and Azertioup. Horses fall from time two times, especially in the Champion Chase and certainly when only a 6yo in only your 3rd race outside novice company.

Then excluding your 2mile races from his first 5 runs in England we're left with his 4 Gold Cups. You on one side make excuses for why he ran so well in his Gold Cups wins because they "were run at a crawl", yet neglect to point out Kauto's mistake this year was when the race was run at a crawl.

So we're left with 2008. Where Denman was awesome, putting in a career best performance. Kauto was beaten.

Now onto you eric mr, Kauto's record over 3mile and above

111111221U1111F

So you're evidence that "he's not a natural Stayer" is he got beat by Denman in 2008 where he managed to jump like a dog and sillout stayed the rest of the field.

Anyone who knows how much poor jumping takes out of a horse knows that was a gutsy show of staying on soft ground especially given the damage that race did to the winner.

As for the betfair bowl loss, Cheltenham horses are routinely turned over at Aintree, especially ones who have just run the most brutal Gold Cup in memory. He only ran because he was beat by Denman and ego's were hurt.

Also I'm pretty sure unseating the rider and falling means you can't make any judgement on how well a horse stayed.


People can have opinions on horses, people can have favourites but I don't like attempts to down play one horses accomplishments in order to enhance anothers. It's rife on here, people protecting Best Mate means hammer Denman and Kauto. People protecting Denman means hammer Kauto and vice versa.

Kauto Star is my favourite horse and all I wanted in the world was for him to win that 2nd Gold Cup. He did and since then everything else he's done has been a bonus. Demans 2009 Hennessy win is the best race I've ever seen, best performance I've ever seen. I was in shock, humbled and privileged to witness that.

I love both horses and I'm feeling a bit sad that this is likely their final seasons. I'm praying they both come over to Ireland for Down Royal and Leopardstown so I can say goodbye to the two finest staying chasers I've ever seen.

So I ask you, why Kauto OR Denman, why not Kauto AND Denman. This has been the glory era for staying chasers, when will we have another?

Oh and bud, now worries mate, we never agree on anything but we never argue, just express our opinions.

Oh and bud, now worries mate, we never agree on anything but we never argue, just express our opinions.

Looking forward to this season and our many Hurricane Fly and Binocular discussions.

Also in comparing his 4 King George races to his 4 Gold Cups.

He is at his peak fitness in all those King Georges while was slightly over raced when he raced in his first two Gold Cups. Hence performances nowhere near that of the King George, plus he faced a horse as good as Denman.

Then when run fresh for the next 4 races he was imperious until his fall at Cheltenham.

Why must people try to read more into that fall than just accepting the horse made a mistake, humans make mistakes for no reason, so why can't horses?

5 King George wins & retirement , I hope .

He won't win the Gold Cup but he deserves to retire at Cheltenham.

As I started this perhaps I should comment.I never intended this to be a Kauto/Denman thing as I would always be on Kauto s side.I only want whats best for Kauto hence I would prefer he was retired before the inevital age factor takes effect!

Looking forward to mate.Need HF to stay sound,then we got some real fun ahead.Binocular will be tough nut to crack,but the Fly is certainly one that could do it.
Got a feeling Peddlers Cross could figure if stays hurdling,looks a goodun.

An interesting statement from Nigel Twiston Davies recently regarding Imperial Commander....."He'll go for the Betfair again and hopefully this time we'll have him fit" or words to that affect.

Little doubt Kauto wasn't 100% at Haydock, he never is but if ever there's a time to back against Kauto it will be at Haydock.

As far as the King George goes, look at the facts. He hacked up last year for the 4th time looking as good as ever. He goes to Cheltenham and makes a horrific blunder that would have put most horses on the floor and before Ruby has time to get him fully balanced again the pace quickens and he finds himself going hlaf a stride to quick and ends up on the floor.

These things happen everyday and if you wrote a horse off because of a blunder/fall you would soon be in the poor house.

I have seen absolutely no evidence to indicate Kauto Stra has gone backwards and the only danger to him on Boxing Day will be himself.

As for the Gold Cup......unless he has deteriorated if he jumps he wins it's really that simple.

I don't think they'll go for the Betfair chase this year, better to have a run in the park at Down Royal than to take him to a track he doesn't really like especially at his age.

Trips above 3m he has lost at 10/11, 8/11 and 4/7, in other words anything but simple in the Gold Cup.

They will avoid taking on Imperial Commander at Haydock as it is very likely to end in defeat if IC is fit.. Looks like they may send Denman there instead even though Ireland would suit him way more. Remember Best Mate never swerved a challenge, went over to Ireland to annihilate a young peak form Beef Or Salmon leaving the easier option of a King George victory to his 2 miler stablemate Edredon Bleu and met defeat first time out against a horse who could have been great in Jair Du Cochet, real shame about him.

Haha, you realise how moronic your above 3miles stat is eric? 4 Gold Cups 1 fall, 1 defeat to a monsterous Denman and his befair bowl at 3m1f loss.

You think Denman should go to Down Royal and Kauto to Haydock?

Denman can go to Haydock and Leopardstown you know. Don't know why you think he shouldn't.

Implying that they are swerving a challenge, with Kauto Star, is so comical, you know you opinions are viewed as worthless when you show this much bias and ante Kauto sentiment.

If they go to Down Royal with Kauto, as they should, then it's because it'll be a better prep for the King George at his age, no tough battle fto for the old horse. Not because they are swerving a challenge.

I don't ignore facts like you if they don't agree with your sentiment, you prefer to try and deflect from them rather than accepting them as they are or trying to explain them ... Maybe you wouldn't have laid off a 20k win on Kauto on the eve of the Gold Cup due to your blinkers and lack of insight into the horses strengths and weaknesses.  You are a poster on here not to become involved in chat with for this reason and other disingenuous ones we know from last season.

Kauto is the greatest King George and most versatile horse we have seen, I already said that. You should read posts before making sweeping statements on bias. I do see his weaknesses even if you are blissfully unaware of them. Anyway enough dialogue we ought to swerve each others posts this season there is nothing to gain for either of us.

eric,
why have you changed your user name (again); I know that your Steinbeck ante-post thread was incredibly embarrassing, but most of us on the forum don't take you seriously anyway!

I don't ignore facts, comedy. You think the extra 1 or 2 furlongs is the most important factor not the quality of opposition, the going, the fitness of the horse, incidents in the race. Nope to you it's black and white, 3 loses 2 wins. That is that.

When anyone with and IQ in double figures can see 5 races, 1 fall meaning the distance had nothing to do with it, 1 defeat when well over the top at Aintree and 1 defeat to Denman.

"The facts" on how to lose money by eric_morris.

1) Form an opinion,
2) look for any stat to back up opinion.
3) Argue stupid opinion.
4) Pause for laughter

I love the way you try to attack my character as a poster too. Stupid, pointless & childish.

Cvb I haven't read your posts.

Kevo on that thread I said St Nick would not win the Guineas and predicted in Steinbecks absence Canford Cliffs was the most likely winner with a lot of barrage from other posters who thought St Nick was the next Sea The Stars.

I like jamesp on here he has a lot to offer but he got it embarrassingly wrong on that thread re St Nick being. suited to the Guineas and Canford not staying a mile. I haven't mentioned that until now as I don't seek to character assassinate people like you. I have no time for you as I don't value your contributions on here unlike jamesp even though he gets it wrong sometimes he also gets it right a lot and gives reason for debate. That thread was anything but embarrassing for me I called the red hot fav as not being a miler and chose the eventual Champion miler as the most likely to win the race. A 33/1 chance won as we know however I don't prepare the horse to peak to the minute for the race.

But eric,
your conspiracy theory about the Coolmore breeding operation and why Steinbeck was withdrawn was pure fantasy on your part.

so why have you changed your user name again?

Might be an idea to run Kauto at a shorter distance before the King George just to sharpen him up.

LOL ERIC


Beats a young fit Beef Or Salmon...... err the one that had Le Coundray in front of him, unless you think that was Beefs True form

You do tend to put the "Anal" in Analysis quite a lot

Beef Or Salmon is another horse who could have his jumping put under pressure and was not fond of undulating Cheltenham. Connections took him on away from Prestbury no swerving there when the alternative was a penalty kick in Edredons King George. Kauto is going to swerve his main opponent at Haydock by the looks of it. Hen never swerved Jair Du Cochet first time out either. It is when they go beyond 3 miles Kauto's qualities are diluted, obvious to a blind man.

Best Mate usually swerved the racecourse altogether.....



No reply on the Le Coundray formline ay...................

I was enjoying reading this thread until this ****ing **** came in and started arguing like a child.

Look it's obvious this eric_morris guy is a complete moron. Accusing connections of Kauto Star of swerving an opponent. An Opponent they beat twice last year no less.

lamb master has a point, stop arguing CVB, you have driven him back to his Ladybird books.

Kauto is obviously going to duck Imperial Commander according to connections, don't think Nicholls is doing this because he knows Kauto would beat IC, quite the opposite.

Your complete bias against kauto star shows you for the fool you are. You even suggest kauto would skip kempton and go for the lexus. Total moronic drivel. Everyone can see that.

I understand why you change usernames.

Kauto's season (certainly the first half) revolves around kempton. Why get into a potentially gruelling race at haydock and possibly leave the king george behind when he could try to find a soft king george prep in ireland? i certainly would do that. If nicholls intends to use his 1st run this yr as a piece of work, no point in facing a sharp imperial first time out.

And going to ireland is not about bottling imperial at haydock, its about getting the perfect prep into the horse ahead of his main target.

That's exactly it RC, Kauto has had many races on the clock and at this stage in his career they need to be taking care of him and only going for King George and Gold Cup.

His prep should not be at a track he doesn't like, as Haydock is, and he certainly doesn't need a repeat of last years battle in the mud.

What's the betfair chase to Kauto anyway? He's won it three times.

both of you cant see the woods for the trees the 2 gold cups kauto won were on good ground and he jumped flawlessly .
the 2 he lost were on tacky ground were he jumped terrible.
to win another gold cup he will need good ground .
and dont give me the argument he has won on soft before not at 3m2 at cheltenham he hasnt.
now thats what you call simple.

I consider myself priveleged to have been able to watch the entire career of Kauto Star, and I reckon it'll be a few years before we see one as good as him (consistently, over a period of 4+ seasons). Even so, he is not invincible and there are certain circumstances that make him a little less of a champion. Soft (tacky) going, and being challenged for the lead or being unable to dominate a race, are a couple of things likely to make his perfomance lesser on the day.
One of my long-standing racing pals would sleep with the horse if he could, and he usually has a bet on the treble of Betfair/King George/Gold Cup having taken 7/1 in 2008-09.
After Kauto beat Imperial Commander in the Betfair Chase last year, I sent him a copy of the photo-finish. He agreed with me, and I would defy anyone to suggest otherwise that the "body" of Imperial Commander was at least 18-inches in front of Kauto Star's. If horse's had to breach the finish line with their chest rather than their nose (like human athlete's) then it would not even have been a photo - Imperial Commander would have won by nearly a quarter of a length (in the photo you can see most of Kauto Star's rump). It just happened that on the line Kauto Star had his neck almost horizontal and stretched out, whereas Imperial Commander had his head raised. This is not because Kauto Star knew what he was doing, he was just at a different part of his stride.
But that's racing! Can't change the result to suit the circumstances.
A brilliant horse and I just hope he doesn't go the way of One Man. Connections have nothing left to prove.

Wayward Lad I don't know why you're making a case about the photo finish, it seems a little pointless. In terms of performance they were on par that day. The swamp conditions would favor the more staying Imperial Commander, Kauto only won that race because of his jumping and a lucky head bob.

That is the closest any horse has come to beating him to the line in a grade one since Denman, people need to realize Impartial Commander is a seriously talented horse.

Nobody would ever claim a horse is unbeatable, every horse is beatable. Especially in the modern game where fitness is so so important. Horses are being trained and produced for one or two races a year.

That's the way the game is going. Neither Kauto nor IC were at peak fitness at Haycock last year, why should they be