Horse Antepost
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Following the 'success' of getting misleading going reports at least 'talked about' (thanks Greg Wood & a 'few' others) I feel it's worthwhile having another bash at this with the flat season ( & the going issues that go with it) almost upon us.....
Please feel free to add any thoughts/concerns you may have on going descriptions/forcasts throughout the season....
This is a discussion that took place on the Horse Racing Forum this morning & hopefully a few points were raised that can be taken further for the benefit of all......
jonjo 22 Mar 09:00
Betfair, unlike the bookmakers who sponsor races, are in a unique position, something that I dont personally think you make enough of......
Unlike bookmakers, it is in the interests of ALL your stakeholders, that the sport of horse racing is run on a level playing field...
Yesterday (& not for the first time) we had a situation at Haydock Park (a course where you are major sponsors) where the actual going, bore no resemblence to the advance going given by the clerk of the course....
The clerk's performance has been poor since day one
The Levy board are simply not interested in giving punters a fair crack of the whip though, or these serial liars/underachievers would be severely reprimanded at best & at worst have all levy funding withdrawn if this sort of rubbish continued....
Punters are getting sicker & sicker at this state of affairs & as the levy yield continues to fall there is a common denominator here, in that NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR THE PUNTERS ON THIS ISSUE.
The conventional bookmakers love it & since gross profits tax was brought in, the Levy people are hardly likely to see the bigger picture are they?
Let's not forget this man absolutely TORPEDOED the Sprint Cup in 2007 with his ridiculous watering policy.
There will be people with allotments near Haydock Park that would have more idea regarding turf management.
Look at the 'analysis' of the bumper winner...
The non-runners took a large slice of interest out of this bumper. It was run at a crawling early gallop and produced a taking winner in MISTER WALL STREET, who got his career off to a perfect start.
He made up his ground turning for home and it was clear around 3f out that he was the one to be on. He did not have to be fully extended to go clear, acted without fuss on the quick ground, and clearly has a future. It must be noted this was a weak heat, however.
In the novice chase, we had a winner, Watch My Back, which won twice previously on Gd/firm going.....
Experienced race readers have exposed this blatent lie as regards an advanced going report.....
No one with a pair of functioning eyes could say that ground was as described.....
"Chase course - GOOD, Good to soft in places; GoingStick 6.3 . (A cold start with patchy ground frost; dry and fine with lengthy spells of sunshine; moderate north-westerly winds"
Tellwright's going descriptions, if replicated nationwide would render the formbook WORTHLESS........
It is not in Betfair's interests to take the same line as the bookmakers (to whom misleading going forcasts are manna from heaven)
Betfair want people BACKING as well as laying WITH CONFIDENCE (confidence breeds bigger bets/lays = more commish')
Unlike the PUNTERS in this SPORT, Betfair HAS A VOICE.
It's very good all the stuff you've done lately for your customers etc, making TIMEFORM available, previews on Betfair fm etc, but you can now do something for the genuine benefit of punters NATIONWIDE & gain some points the conventional bookmakers cannot possibly score back off you.
PLEASE BE SEEN to be doing something about this, so it WILL make the levy board aware of the chronic dis-satisfaction amongst punters. This is NOT something that can be achieved behind closed doors....The only way this will change & increase punters confidence will be if they SEE someone acting in THEIR interests.
We have a flat season pending where the regular over watering of courses will lead to a plethora of complaints from punters, we all know that.....
PUNTERS on the whole, wouldn't mind watering to produce safe ground, but when clerks regularly MISLEAD them in order to appear competent at their jobs (see clerkwatch 2009 on your own antepost forum) people have no option other than to reduce their stakes, or stop betting.......This is no good to me personally, & I suspect it aint much good to BETFAIR?
Stake & *****22 Mar 09:42
Isn't a simpler solution to have an independent body which is responsible for issuing the going reports, rather than the courses themselves?
millhouse 22 Mar 09:46
I still maintain it's all about the BAGS payment - clerks are desperate to ensure they get the 8 runners a race in order to get the bookmaker money.
This will inevitably lead to inaccurate going descriptions and over watering in the summer - exactly as the bookmaiing industry planned when their henchmen at BAGS instituted this scheme...
jonjo 22 Mar 09:46
Yes Stakey, it would be, but the Levy board are just letting things drift, because they dont give a monkeys about the going being accurate.......Betfair ought to care about the going being accurate & as major sponsors THEY can express punters concerns better than punters can, because they have a voice, punters dont....sadly
jonjo 22 Mar 09:48
Imagine the furore if Betfair threatened to can the Betfair Million or whatever it's called in view of the fact that clerks appear to be leading backers (& LAYERS) up the garden path.....
Even the Rancid Post would have to cover it......
Stake & *****22 Mar 09:49
Ok and Independent Body "sponsored" by Betfair.
I'm sure there are plenty of users who are close to a course who would volunteer to be representatives of any body set up....
I expect the courses would be seething at this turn of events though...
Keeponthesunnyside 22 Mar 09:50
well said. This is 2 weeks running this has happened-first Wetherby and now Haydock. Its not good for betfair either as people will think twice about betting earlier at these courses as I'm sure some people were hit hard yesterday with reduction factors on the likes of Western Whiskey and probably ended up with bets they didnt want. In my eyes what the clerk has done is a sackable offence and I'm sure trainers will be lodging complaints today about this situation. As Haydock don't seem to care about jumps racing any longer perhaps they are trying to put trainers off sending horses back there, therefore reducing the quality of fields and this will then give back up for them to ditch NH racing.
jonjo 22 Mar 09:53
Thanks Keeponthesunnyside......I would venture that the performance during the FLAT season from certain clerks is little better (probably worse) than we got yesterday......see clerkwatch on antepost & you soon see (over the course of a season) who the serial misleaders are....
Yes Stakey, they could SPONSOR an independent body, but they would need everyone (Racing Post etc to get behind them & report THEIR going reports, not the rubbish the clerks give out - Having Timeform on board now gives them extra gravitas in this area imo....
jonjo 22 Mar 09:54
Stakey: Betfair (imo) could easily put their own team together....
Trial it this flat season (in conjuction with Timeform to ensure accuracy) & go live after the trials have been completed.
prism 22 Mar 09:59
At the moment, because of commercial reasons, the Racing Post are not covering Betfair issues (positive ones anyway)and initiatives (and prices only very occasionally), and this includes the launch of the new SP multiples option.
It is hoped that this will change in the future.
Stake & *****22 Mar 10:01
Was the going description updated during racing at Haydock yesterday, or did they leave it as per the overnight/ morning details? Presumabmy with all the withdrawals they had to have changed it?
AgentR 22 Mar 10:02
The going stick confuses me.
At what point is the measurement taken and reported? Should measuring be limited to just the day before, done by a BHB rep, rather than the clerk? With only ground changing weather reported afterwards, i.e. 6mm of rain overnight, for you to make your own decision.
IMO going reporting should be changed to 'mostly good' or 'majority firm' as oppsed to all this bitty' soft in places, firm in others' nonsense.
Stake & *****22 Mar 10:02
Sounds promising, prism. Good luck in getting the RP on your (and our) side.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:03
Yifter, I think maybe sometimes punters can come across as being a bit **ly' over this issue, because often they feel that no one is standing up to these people & lets be fair here, if he's on the telly with a bottle of 'Kirklands Water' or whatever the hell it was (I didn't see it so cant comment) it could look as though he's cosying up to the media & the media are playing along with it....
I dont doubt you're one of the good guys Yifter & enjoy your contributions to RUK very much, but also I dont doubt HH's sentiments over inaccurate going reports....It's not always easy to express things as you want to on here & sometimes there can be misunderstandings (someone might have said something similar to you face to face, but laughed as they said it & you'd hopefully take it as being ribbed about it, but on here, you dont have that contact)
HH has offered to meet up if you are at Mussy & I would venture that shows that he is genuine & not looking to hide behind a username, as many on here do.
I do know him & I am sure he is a genuine person & a racing enthusiast as well as being a punter.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 10:03
Agree 100% with you Jonjo, Jenny Pitman would be a big approver of this too, many times I saw her banging on the clerks door to complain about false going reports,wasting her owners money taking horses to the course when they can't run on the going and withdrawing her horses in the process.
The clerk at Windsor needs his @rse kicking for over watering, the home straight runs by the thames ffs how dry is that going to get, especially now we don't really get hot summers any more, good to soft going in the middle of summer(unofficial of course) is a complete joke.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:03
sorry, wrong thread
empty 22 Mar 10:03
Tell Bert to send RP staff a few crates of Guiness Prism, that should sort it
jonjo 22 Mar 10:07
prism 22 Mar 09:59
At the moment, because of commercial reasons, the Racing Post are not covering Betfair issues (positive ones anyway)and initiatives (and prices only very occasionally), and this includes the launch of the new SP multiples option.
It is hoped that this will change in the future.
Prism........If Betfair sent a press release out, indicating they were looking at misleading going reports with concerns over future sponsorship...Wouldn't the racing post be obliged to pick up on this if other journalists (Lids, Mellish, Wood et al) picked up on it?
Something worth thinking about perhaps?
jonjo 22 Mar 10:10
Fully take on board the need to get the word out about immediate priorities that Betfair have just launched (multiples etc) but this issue is something that would be of benefit to punters the length & breadth of the land & Betfair would be seen to be acting for the genuine benefit of racing, the levy yeild & punters.....Something that the firms, the BHA & the levy board simply seem to lack the will to do.....
Personally, I dont think you can BUY publicity or goodwill that something like that would provide......
prism 22 Mar 10:17
If it were to come to fruition, it clearly wouldn't happen in this manner, and in such a confrontational way. That would serve no purpose, and undermine exactly what you were trying to achieve.
I think sometimes we lose sight of how difficult a task accurate going reports appear to be; if it was that easy, experienced course officials wouldnt get it wrong occasionally (unless there were doing so for commercial reasons and or/incompetence, which is another matter entirely).
It could well be that the on-course Timeform staff could feed this into their written analysis and daily updates on here (they could well do that on here at the moment, and on the RP site course analysis, pre race and during, for all i know).
I am sure Timeform and the RP would be happy to have an email dropped into their inboxes. It would be interesting to see how the respective organisations respond.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:23
I've emailed Timeform Prism, but I have long since given up on the Racing Post tackling this issue.....
I agree that I am probably using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut but this particular walnut has been choking punters throats for a little while now & wherever we've turned (clerkwatch 2008- antepost) we've had soothing platitudes from people, but very little action....
Most of the organisations are well served by INERTIA on this matter. The Post (if Paul Haigh is to be believed?) wont rock the boat for the firms (who LOVE innacurate going reports) the BHA (gross profits anyone?) are deeply suspect when issues like this arise & the levy board.......well, nuff said...
The only people suffering here are punters & I simply wont have it that going on racecourses has suddenly (over the last six years or so) become SO hard to forcast/predict accurately......Many thanks for taking the time to read this though, it is appreciated
jonjo 22 Mar 10:34
Just received an email from Zilzal1 who put far more work into clerkwatch on here than anyone else.......
John
You might want to ask why no one in the industry took on Claiise when he gave a going stick reading which read that kautos gold cup was softer than denmans
This is what we are up against & continue to be up against.....Betfair/Timeform seem to be the ONLY hope for addressing this & providing something stakeholders in the sport can trust?????
unluckyStu 22 Mar 10:48
just emailed the forum on ATR now about false going reports, lets see if they discuss it.
Keep it Goin 22 Mar 10:50
Would be lovely if this ever happened jonjo, suppose we can dream.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:58
I'll do everything I can to make sure something happens Keep it Going, but I dont have the platform to get this sort of issue aired properly....Timeform/Betfair does & hopefully we will see a more positive response from them than we have from the BHA, The Racing Post & the Levy Board....
To his credit, Greg Wood gave this campaign a mention in his column & spoke to Zilzal1 about it, but it's even got quiet there now
johnn 22 Mar 11:08
Unless there is a major shakeup at the top of British racing, this will consistently fail to be addressed.
The interests of those who self serve, and the paranoia about losing one's position at the trough seems to preclude anyone apart from the everyday punter having any real interest in this issue.
The Racing Post, and Scotland's two "premier racing journalists" (ffs), have constantly ignored my emails to bring some publicity to this disease that afflicts many courses these days, instead preferring those twee, sh1tey anecdotal racing stories instead. It would appear that the only segment of this game with any need to have this addressed is the punter, and we know where we are in the foodchain, despite paying everyone's wages, directly or indirectly.
We'll keep chipping away though.
Tony Cheeseburger 22 Mar 11:09
It's a noble cause gents but I fear you have no chance.
Here's how it works:
- The Haydock clerk sabotages his own track
- The bookies' partners at the Post are so pleased with his efforts they hire his daughter, who then does advertorials on the bookies
Punters are out of this cosy loop I'm afraid.
Is anyone else dreading the return of Beverley? THEY stole an absolute fortune when they flooded the far rail on a couple of occasions last year and they doubtless have plans to repeat the heist this year.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:13
jonjo you got an email addy, don't want to post my theory on here in case they ban me.
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:13
The crux of the matter is, what is the underlying reason for inaccurate going reports ?!
Can someone either give an answer or hazzard a guess please,
if so, then it may clear the path for those other in the media or sponsors to voice their opinion or hopefully discontent !
millhouse 22 Mar 11:16
The crux of the matter is, what is the underlying reason for inaccurate going reports ?!
There is only one real agenda in this whole industry infomaniac - to ensure the continued patronage of the bookmaking industry by helping them to remove as much of our money as possible...
metro john 22 Mar 11:18
Capitalist pigs!
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:18
" There is only one real agenda in this whole industry infomaniac - to ensure the continued patronage of the bookmaking industry by helping them to remove as much of our money as possible... "
So are you saying/suggesting that the bookmakers get the accurate going reports ?!
empty 22 Mar 11:18
Millhouse is probaby correct
Punters are the cash cow and providing them with decent info is not in the best interest of racing
jonjo 22 Mar 11:19
Stu, if it's a theory, post it as a question, if it's a legitimate question, no one will ban you.......I only have one email addy & cannot risk putting it on here, sorry.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:20
ok jonjo, can't post it as a question, it's a bit libelous mate.
jonjo 22 Mar 11:21
This is true Empty (see above re; Gross profits tax etc) but it IS in Betfair's interests to put ALL the BEST information at the punters fingertips......They dont get their money through emptying people out, they get it from commision (whether THAT empties people out is another debate entirely lol)
Betfair/Timeform can address this issue in some way, shape or form, I am sure of that....& to the benefit of all punters, layers & even racing professionals (who cannot seriously be happy with the current state of affairs?)
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:21
it involves funny coloured envelopes if you know what I mean.
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:22
Stu/jonjo,
it's very easy to have several email addresses and will only take a couple of minutes,
use one for initial emails and once you are satisfied you want to/don't mind having correspondance with the person, then email them from your real/regular address !
jonjo 22 Mar 11:22
Think I know where you're heading Stu.....
I would suggest that what you might be thinking probablyISNT happening, simply because the racing end of it, isn't switched on enough to the potential
johnn 22 Mar 11:24
Frankly, the whole concept of Timeform and form study in general is rendered useless by inaaccurate going reports.
jonjo 22 Mar 11:26
Exactly Johnn, & this is why they CAN/MUST address it.
Since Jimbo left the boys they've got very little wrong as regards getting 'brand timeform' out there & in more people's faces....
Addressing this issue with a solid bat would take them back to the days when Phil Bull spoke the racing world took notice....
This is a biggy for them, I reckon.
johnn 22 Mar 11:27
If it isn't, it certainly should be.
millhouse 22 Mar 11:27
Info, obviously inaccurate going reports makes it much harder for anyone to win.
I am absolutely convinced that the new BAGS paymnent, the institution of which co-incided directly with the sudden increase in inaccurate going reports, is largely to blame for this problem. Clerks are now very aware of what they need to do to get this payment, and the inexperienced ones are over watering or failing to report accurately because they are desperate for 8 runners a race.
Im my opinion this is partly what the suits at the big three - whose job it is to devise new ways to make it easier to remove our money - had in mind when they instituted this scheme through BAGS...
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:27
not so much the clerks but the other chappies who are hands on involved in the actual work, and are not to highly paid, if you know what I mean. Waterers, harrowers and rollers spring to mind.
empty 22 Mar 11:28
Jonjo
I do believe TF provide thier own going assessments as well as the official. Maybe this could be taken a step further and they could provide an assessment prior to racing with updates as more info comes available from racing
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:31
empty, there own going reports only appear after racing has taken place and time of race has been taken into consideration, going per furlong etc etc. and adjustments can be made.
empty 22 Mar 11:34
Yes Stu and my suggestion is they take that a step further
You would then have an independent going description
jonjo 22 Mar 11:35
This could be the case Millhouse, as could the misleading reports merely be clerks following the directive from the BHA that 'firm' ground is not acceptable on grounds of safety (someone tell Bath racecourse by the way)
Then they produce 'good' ground, but if they overdo it, they dont want to look like idiots, so they dont say they've overdone it.....
From a punting perspective, I prefer to bet on fast ground, but as long as I know what I am betting on, I dont give a sh!t really (heavy ground excepted) but it's getting the info that counts.......
Empty, I am pretty sure they do, do their own going (based on times) & that would be the giveaway to end all giveaways & would do them more good than they could possibly imagine (linked in with 'Betfair sponsored' advanced forcasts of course!!!!!)
Stu, the logistics of what you suggest are nigh on impossible, you'd only need one person to break ranks, or ask a workmate wtf he was playing at & the whole house of cards would come down......Clerks are well paid to monitor what goes on, end of as far as I am concerned there mate.
empty 22 Mar 11:35
TF however, may want to keep that info for TF customers
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:36
Agree empty but could they do it before racing takes place which is what we want, then it could be updated online before racing starts, but this would be near impossible I'm afraid.
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Please feel free to add any thoughts/concerns you may have on going descriptions/forcasts throughout the season....
This is a discussion that took place on the Horse Racing Forum this morning & hopefully a few points were raised that can be taken further for the benefit of all......
jonjo 22 Mar 09:00
Betfair, unlike the bookmakers who sponsor races, are in a unique position, something that I dont personally think you make enough of......
Unlike bookmakers, it is in the interests of ALL your stakeholders, that the sport of horse racing is run on a level playing field...
Yesterday (& not for the first time) we had a situation at Haydock Park (a course where you are major sponsors) where the actual going, bore no resemblence to the advance going given by the clerk of the course....
The clerk's performance has been poor since day one
The Levy board are simply not interested in giving punters a fair crack of the whip though, or these serial liars/underachievers would be severely reprimanded at best & at worst have all levy funding withdrawn if this sort of rubbish continued....
Punters are getting sicker & sicker at this state of affairs & as the levy yield continues to fall there is a common denominator here, in that NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR THE PUNTERS ON THIS ISSUE.
The conventional bookmakers love it & since gross profits tax was brought in, the Levy people are hardly likely to see the bigger picture are they?
Let's not forget this man absolutely TORPEDOED the Sprint Cup in 2007 with his ridiculous watering policy.
There will be people with allotments near Haydock Park that would have more idea regarding turf management.
Look at the 'analysis' of the bumper winner...
The non-runners took a large slice of interest out of this bumper. It was run at a crawling early gallop and produced a taking winner in MISTER WALL STREET, who got his career off to a perfect start.
He made up his ground turning for home and it was clear around 3f out that he was the one to be on. He did not have to be fully extended to go clear, acted without fuss on the quick ground, and clearly has a future. It must be noted this was a weak heat, however.
In the novice chase, we had a winner, Watch My Back, which won twice previously on Gd/firm going.....
Experienced race readers have exposed this blatent lie as regards an advanced going report.....
No one with a pair of functioning eyes could say that ground was as described.....
"Chase course - GOOD, Good to soft in places; GoingStick 6.3 . (A cold start with patchy ground frost; dry and fine with lengthy spells of sunshine; moderate north-westerly winds"
Tellwright's going descriptions, if replicated nationwide would render the formbook WORTHLESS........
It is not in Betfair's interests to take the same line as the bookmakers (to whom misleading going forcasts are manna from heaven)
Betfair want people BACKING as well as laying WITH CONFIDENCE (confidence breeds bigger bets/lays = more commish')
Unlike the PUNTERS in this SPORT, Betfair HAS A VOICE.
It's very good all the stuff you've done lately for your customers etc, making TIMEFORM available, previews on Betfair fm etc, but you can now do something for the genuine benefit of punters NATIONWIDE & gain some points the conventional bookmakers cannot possibly score back off you.
PLEASE BE SEEN to be doing something about this, so it WILL make the levy board aware of the chronic dis-satisfaction amongst punters. This is NOT something that can be achieved behind closed doors....The only way this will change & increase punters confidence will be if they SEE someone acting in THEIR interests.
We have a flat season pending where the regular over watering of courses will lead to a plethora of complaints from punters, we all know that.....
PUNTERS on the whole, wouldn't mind watering to produce safe ground, but when clerks regularly MISLEAD them in order to appear competent at their jobs (see clerkwatch 2009 on your own antepost forum) people have no option other than to reduce their stakes, or stop betting.......This is no good to me personally, & I suspect it aint much good to BETFAIR?
Stake & *****22 Mar 09:42
Isn't a simpler solution to have an independent body which is responsible for issuing the going reports, rather than the courses themselves?
millhouse 22 Mar 09:46
I still maintain it's all about the BAGS payment - clerks are desperate to ensure they get the 8 runners a race in order to get the bookmaker money.
This will inevitably lead to inaccurate going descriptions and over watering in the summer - exactly as the bookmaiing industry planned when their henchmen at BAGS instituted this scheme...
jonjo 22 Mar 09:46
Yes Stakey, it would be, but the Levy board are just letting things drift, because they dont give a monkeys about the going being accurate.......Betfair ought to care about the going being accurate & as major sponsors THEY can express punters concerns better than punters can, because they have a voice, punters dont....sadly
jonjo 22 Mar 09:48
Imagine the furore if Betfair threatened to can the Betfair Million or whatever it's called in view of the fact that clerks appear to be leading backers (& LAYERS) up the garden path.....
Even the Rancid Post would have to cover it......
Stake & *****22 Mar 09:49
Ok and Independent Body "sponsored" by Betfair.
I'm sure there are plenty of users who are close to a course who would volunteer to be representatives of any body set up....
I expect the courses would be seething at this turn of events though...
Keeponthesunnyside 22 Mar 09:50
well said. This is 2 weeks running this has happened-first Wetherby and now Haydock. Its not good for betfair either as people will think twice about betting earlier at these courses as I'm sure some people were hit hard yesterday with reduction factors on the likes of Western Whiskey and probably ended up with bets they didnt want. In my eyes what the clerk has done is a sackable offence and I'm sure trainers will be lodging complaints today about this situation. As Haydock don't seem to care about jumps racing any longer perhaps they are trying to put trainers off sending horses back there, therefore reducing the quality of fields and this will then give back up for them to ditch NH racing.
jonjo 22 Mar 09:53
Thanks Keeponthesunnyside......I would venture that the performance during the FLAT season from certain clerks is little better (probably worse) than we got yesterday......see clerkwatch on antepost & you soon see (over the course of a season) who the serial misleaders are....
Yes Stakey, they could SPONSOR an independent body, but they would need everyone (Racing Post etc to get behind them & report THEIR going reports, not the rubbish the clerks give out - Having Timeform on board now gives them extra gravitas in this area imo....
jonjo 22 Mar 09:54
Stakey: Betfair (imo) could easily put their own team together....
Trial it this flat season (in conjuction with Timeform to ensure accuracy) & go live after the trials have been completed.
prism 22 Mar 09:59
At the moment, because of commercial reasons, the Racing Post are not covering Betfair issues (positive ones anyway)and initiatives (and prices only very occasionally), and this includes the launch of the new SP multiples option.
It is hoped that this will change in the future.
Stake & *****22 Mar 10:01
Was the going description updated during racing at Haydock yesterday, or did they leave it as per the overnight/ morning details? Presumabmy with all the withdrawals they had to have changed it?
AgentR 22 Mar 10:02
The going stick confuses me.
At what point is the measurement taken and reported? Should measuring be limited to just the day before, done by a BHB rep, rather than the clerk? With only ground changing weather reported afterwards, i.e. 6mm of rain overnight, for you to make your own decision.
IMO going reporting should be changed to 'mostly good' or 'majority firm' as oppsed to all this bitty' soft in places, firm in others' nonsense.
Stake & *****22 Mar 10:02
Sounds promising, prism. Good luck in getting the RP on your (and our) side.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:03
Yifter, I think maybe sometimes punters can come across as being a bit **ly' over this issue, because often they feel that no one is standing up to these people & lets be fair here, if he's on the telly with a bottle of 'Kirklands Water' or whatever the hell it was (I didn't see it so cant comment) it could look as though he's cosying up to the media & the media are playing along with it....
I dont doubt you're one of the good guys Yifter & enjoy your contributions to RUK very much, but also I dont doubt HH's sentiments over inaccurate going reports....It's not always easy to express things as you want to on here & sometimes there can be misunderstandings (someone might have said something similar to you face to face, but laughed as they said it & you'd hopefully take it as being ribbed about it, but on here, you dont have that contact)
HH has offered to meet up if you are at Mussy & I would venture that shows that he is genuine & not looking to hide behind a username, as many on here do.
I do know him & I am sure he is a genuine person & a racing enthusiast as well as being a punter.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 10:03
Agree 100% with you Jonjo, Jenny Pitman would be a big approver of this too, many times I saw her banging on the clerks door to complain about false going reports,wasting her owners money taking horses to the course when they can't run on the going and withdrawing her horses in the process.
The clerk at Windsor needs his @rse kicking for over watering, the home straight runs by the thames ffs how dry is that going to get, especially now we don't really get hot summers any more, good to soft going in the middle of summer(unofficial of course) is a complete joke.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:03
sorry, wrong thread
empty 22 Mar 10:03
Tell Bert to send RP staff a few crates of Guiness Prism, that should sort it
jonjo 22 Mar 10:07
prism 22 Mar 09:59
At the moment, because of commercial reasons, the Racing Post are not covering Betfair issues (positive ones anyway)and initiatives (and prices only very occasionally), and this includes the launch of the new SP multiples option.
It is hoped that this will change in the future.
Prism........If Betfair sent a press release out, indicating they were looking at misleading going reports with concerns over future sponsorship...Wouldn't the racing post be obliged to pick up on this if other journalists (Lids, Mellish, Wood et al) picked up on it?
Something worth thinking about perhaps?
jonjo 22 Mar 10:10
Fully take on board the need to get the word out about immediate priorities that Betfair have just launched (multiples etc) but this issue is something that would be of benefit to punters the length & breadth of the land & Betfair would be seen to be acting for the genuine benefit of racing, the levy yeild & punters.....Something that the firms, the BHA & the levy board simply seem to lack the will to do.....
Personally, I dont think you can BUY publicity or goodwill that something like that would provide......
prism 22 Mar 10:17
If it were to come to fruition, it clearly wouldn't happen in this manner, and in such a confrontational way. That would serve no purpose, and undermine exactly what you were trying to achieve.
I think sometimes we lose sight of how difficult a task accurate going reports appear to be; if it was that easy, experienced course officials wouldnt get it wrong occasionally (unless there were doing so for commercial reasons and or/incompetence, which is another matter entirely).
It could well be that the on-course Timeform staff could feed this into their written analysis and daily updates on here (they could well do that on here at the moment, and on the RP site course analysis, pre race and during, for all i know).
I am sure Timeform and the RP would be happy to have an email dropped into their inboxes. It would be interesting to see how the respective organisations respond.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:23
I've emailed Timeform Prism, but I have long since given up on the Racing Post tackling this issue.....
I agree that I am probably using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut but this particular walnut has been choking punters throats for a little while now & wherever we've turned (clerkwatch 2008- antepost) we've had soothing platitudes from people, but very little action....
Most of the organisations are well served by INERTIA on this matter. The Post (if Paul Haigh is to be believed?) wont rock the boat for the firms (who LOVE innacurate going reports) the BHA (gross profits anyone?) are deeply suspect when issues like this arise & the levy board.......well, nuff said...
The only people suffering here are punters & I simply wont have it that going on racecourses has suddenly (over the last six years or so) become SO hard to forcast/predict accurately......Many thanks for taking the time to read this though, it is appreciated
jonjo 22 Mar 10:34
Just received an email from Zilzal1 who put far more work into clerkwatch on here than anyone else.......
John
You might want to ask why no one in the industry took on Claiise when he gave a going stick reading which read that kautos gold cup was softer than denmans
This is what we are up against & continue to be up against.....Betfair/Timeform seem to be the ONLY hope for addressing this & providing something stakeholders in the sport can trust?????
unluckyStu 22 Mar 10:48
just emailed the forum on ATR now about false going reports, lets see if they discuss it.
Keep it Goin 22 Mar 10:50
Would be lovely if this ever happened jonjo, suppose we can dream.
jonjo 22 Mar 10:58
I'll do everything I can to make sure something happens Keep it Going, but I dont have the platform to get this sort of issue aired properly....Timeform/Betfair does & hopefully we will see a more positive response from them than we have from the BHA, The Racing Post & the Levy Board....
To his credit, Greg Wood gave this campaign a mention in his column & spoke to Zilzal1 about it, but it's even got quiet there now
johnn 22 Mar 11:08
Unless there is a major shakeup at the top of British racing, this will consistently fail to be addressed.
The interests of those who self serve, and the paranoia about losing one's position at the trough seems to preclude anyone apart from the everyday punter having any real interest in this issue.
The Racing Post, and Scotland's two "premier racing journalists" (ffs), have constantly ignored my emails to bring some publicity to this disease that afflicts many courses these days, instead preferring those twee, sh1tey anecdotal racing stories instead. It would appear that the only segment of this game with any need to have this addressed is the punter, and we know where we are in the foodchain, despite paying everyone's wages, directly or indirectly.
We'll keep chipping away though.
Tony Cheeseburger 22 Mar 11:09
It's a noble cause gents but I fear you have no chance.
Here's how it works:
- The Haydock clerk sabotages his own track
- The bookies' partners at the Post are so pleased with his efforts they hire his daughter, who then does advertorials on the bookies
Punters are out of this cosy loop I'm afraid.
Is anyone else dreading the return of Beverley? THEY stole an absolute fortune when they flooded the far rail on a couple of occasions last year and they doubtless have plans to repeat the heist this year.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:13
jonjo you got an email addy, don't want to post my theory on here in case they ban me.
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:13
The crux of the matter is, what is the underlying reason for inaccurate going reports ?!
Can someone either give an answer or hazzard a guess please,
if so, then it may clear the path for those other in the media or sponsors to voice their opinion or hopefully discontent !
millhouse 22 Mar 11:16
The crux of the matter is, what is the underlying reason for inaccurate going reports ?!
There is only one real agenda in this whole industry infomaniac - to ensure the continued patronage of the bookmaking industry by helping them to remove as much of our money as possible...
metro john 22 Mar 11:18
Capitalist pigs!
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:18
" There is only one real agenda in this whole industry infomaniac - to ensure the continued patronage of the bookmaking industry by helping them to remove as much of our money as possible... "
So are you saying/suggesting that the bookmakers get the accurate going reports ?!
empty 22 Mar 11:18
Millhouse is probaby correct
Punters are the cash cow and providing them with decent info is not in the best interest of racing
jonjo 22 Mar 11:19
Stu, if it's a theory, post it as a question, if it's a legitimate question, no one will ban you.......I only have one email addy & cannot risk putting it on here, sorry.
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:20
ok jonjo, can't post it as a question, it's a bit libelous mate.
jonjo 22 Mar 11:21
This is true Empty (see above re; Gross profits tax etc) but it IS in Betfair's interests to put ALL the BEST information at the punters fingertips......They dont get their money through emptying people out, they get it from commision (whether THAT empties people out is another debate entirely lol)
Betfair/Timeform can address this issue in some way, shape or form, I am sure of that....& to the benefit of all punters, layers & even racing professionals (who cannot seriously be happy with the current state of affairs?)
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:21
it involves funny coloured envelopes if you know what I mean.
infomaniac 22 Mar 11:22
Stu/jonjo,
it's very easy to have several email addresses and will only take a couple of minutes,
use one for initial emails and once you are satisfied you want to/don't mind having correspondance with the person, then email them from your real/regular address !
jonjo 22 Mar 11:22
Think I know where you're heading Stu.....
I would suggest that what you might be thinking probablyISNT happening, simply because the racing end of it, isn't switched on enough to the potential
johnn 22 Mar 11:24
Frankly, the whole concept of Timeform and form study in general is rendered useless by inaaccurate going reports.
jonjo 22 Mar 11:26
Exactly Johnn, & this is why they CAN/MUST address it.
Since Jimbo left the boys they've got very little wrong as regards getting 'brand timeform' out there & in more people's faces....
Addressing this issue with a solid bat would take them back to the days when Phil Bull spoke the racing world took notice....
This is a biggy for them, I reckon.
johnn 22 Mar 11:27
If it isn't, it certainly should be.
millhouse 22 Mar 11:27
Info, obviously inaccurate going reports makes it much harder for anyone to win.
I am absolutely convinced that the new BAGS paymnent, the institution of which co-incided directly with the sudden increase in inaccurate going reports, is largely to blame for this problem. Clerks are now very aware of what they need to do to get this payment, and the inexperienced ones are over watering or failing to report accurately because they are desperate for 8 runners a race.
Im my opinion this is partly what the suits at the big three - whose job it is to devise new ways to make it easier to remove our money - had in mind when they instituted this scheme through BAGS...
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:27
not so much the clerks but the other chappies who are hands on involved in the actual work, and are not to highly paid, if you know what I mean. Waterers, harrowers and rollers spring to mind.
empty 22 Mar 11:28
Jonjo
I do believe TF provide thier own going assessments as well as the official. Maybe this could be taken a step further and they could provide an assessment prior to racing with updates as more info comes available from racing
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:31
empty, there own going reports only appear after racing has taken place and time of race has been taken into consideration, going per furlong etc etc. and adjustments can be made.
empty 22 Mar 11:34
Yes Stu and my suggestion is they take that a step further
You would then have an independent going description
jonjo 22 Mar 11:35
This could be the case Millhouse, as could the misleading reports merely be clerks following the directive from the BHA that 'firm' ground is not acceptable on grounds of safety (someone tell Bath racecourse by the way)
Then they produce 'good' ground, but if they overdo it, they dont want to look like idiots, so they dont say they've overdone it.....
From a punting perspective, I prefer to bet on fast ground, but as long as I know what I am betting on, I dont give a sh!t really (heavy ground excepted) but it's getting the info that counts.......
Empty, I am pretty sure they do, do their own going (based on times) & that would be the giveaway to end all giveaways & would do them more good than they could possibly imagine (linked in with 'Betfair sponsored' advanced forcasts of course!!!!!)
Stu, the logistics of what you suggest are nigh on impossible, you'd only need one person to break ranks, or ask a workmate wtf he was playing at & the whole house of cards would come down......Clerks are well paid to monitor what goes on, end of as far as I am concerned there mate.
empty 22 Mar 11:35
TF however, may want to keep that info for TF customers
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:36
Agree empty but could they do it before racing takes place which is what we want, then it could be updated online before racing starts, but this would be near impossible I'm afraid.
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ctd.......
unluckyStu 22 Mar 11:37 ok jonjo as I said just a theory mate. jonjo 22 Mar 11:37 Plus Empty, with the R/Post apparently in freefall circulation-wise, why couldn't Timeform make themselves the 'trade paper'? Tiered costs........full service, ratings comments etc, a bit pricey maybe, so you could click here for a basic service including basic card & the ALL IMPORTANT going......cost deducted from your betfair account....Easier than walking to the shop & buying a Racing Post! empty 22 Mar 11:41 Prior to racing going assessments can only really be a guide as there does not seem to be a way to take an accurate measurement, however a ballpark assessment should be achievable millhouse 22 Mar 11:42 Jonjo, another part of this problem is that many Clerks are hugely inexperienced. Many of them are in their twenties and in their first or second jobs, but because they can get them cheaply racecourses are prepared to give them responsibility far too early. No doubt they are very talented people in the long term, but in the past they would have been given the role of Assistant Clerk of the Course and taught their trade by an experienced Clerk over a period of time - now they are thrown in five minutes out of college... empty 22 Mar 11:45 Jonjo There is nothing to stop TF?BF doing any of this except vision and investment Quito 22 Mar 11:47 What about the 10 years of misleading going information in the form book - can we campaign to get that changed? empty 22 Mar 11:47 Only 10 years Quito??? empty 22 Mar 11:47 Only 10 years Quito??? Quito 22 Mar 11:48 Don't suppose anything over 5 years is too relevant now. Quito 22 Mar 11:49 Timeform do at least tell you when the official description was wrong, but not everyone wants to pay for something that should be standard practice. mini me 22 Mar 11:50 . Just the same as Goodwood watering before last year's Stewards Cup........ empty 22 Mar 11:50 Last meeting is of probably no relevance in some cases Quito alun2005 22 Mar 11:52 Very good thread. An 'open goal' issue like this would be a gift from the Gods, and seized double-quick by the media in virtually every other sport you can think......apart from (of course) the cosy Horse Racing media club that dares not rock the gravy train. Only a member of the Racing media would describe a serial 'fined' individual as being 'as honest as the day is long' (without a trace of irony) as happened on Friday. dan hardcore 22 Mar 11:53 Think it's a good idea for betfair to set about creating their own going reports. If they took it seriously and set up a website with going reports up to 3 days before the meeting, and they did a good job of it, then hopefully before long not just punters would be using the site, but also trainers and owners. And then the BHA would hopefully determine the OFFICIAL going to be the one Betfair come up with. Allowing the clerks to come up with their going reports is like allowing students to mark their own exam papers. Betfair should be the markers, bring it on. infomaniac 22 Mar 12:01 Betfair covert operations starring dan hardcore dressed in combat gear and masked, armed with a going stick venturing into darkened racecourses in search of the truth, go get'm dan empty 22 Mar 12:13 email Mr Packman at TF and see if he is receptive to TF providing independent going assessments infomaniac 22 Mar 12:17 Was he named after that 80s video game ?! krl 22 Mar 12:19 "It is not in Betfair's interests to take the same line as the bookmakers" - I loved this comment Jonjo. If there is one group that Betfair do look after,it is their layers. And I would be amazed if a very large percentage of them were not bookmakers. Just needed to make that point Jonjo, the rest of your topic is spot on. jonjo 22 Mar 12:47 'Layers' who are making a book perhaps, but what about people 'selectively' laying certain horses based on their form or 'going preferences'? I genuinely believe that Betfair (or any other exchange for that matter) has the 'moral highground' here, for want of a better phrase in that they can act, or at least chuck some funding at, sorting this current mess out.... jonjo 22 Mar 12:49 Millhouse, dont get me started on where these clerks come from.... In the case of IRM (International Racecourse Management) they seemed to come entirely from two households (at least this was the case till the one at Redcar finally had to go) guinness2dear 22 Mar 13:18 They fund the BF chase at Haddock mucker, so as has been said before, why dont they initiate something by moving their chase to Aintree.... ? birkdale 22 Mar 13:21 I'd create two new meetings at Aintree (December and January) and move all Haydock's NH races there. I've given up NH racing at Haydock even though its very local to me. jonjo 22 Mar 13:26 Appreciate the sentiments there lads, but it would not solve the problems at Haydock or at other tracks imo... Betfair/Timeform can get behind this campaign imo & without pulling down the shutters on sponsorship, but they would need to do so, on the basis that if 'racing' as a whole entity refused to acknowledge there is a problem, further sponsorship should not be forthcoming.... Haydock's flat racing has had it's share of problems Birkdale, yet it's usually got quite attractive punting cards (once you know the going) Surely we shouldn't lose that, but improve upon it? guinness2dear 22 Mar 13:30 A shot across the bows would be my idea of a good move by BF (but i am a somewhat extremist) guinness2dear 22 Mar 13:35 And i think Birky only want's the NH shifted ? A sentiment i wholeheartedly agree with.. Aintree is vastly underused... amaru 22 Mar 13:37 RUK now. birkdale 22 Mar 13:38 Correct. Haydock does well with its flat cards in the summer, and would be hugely successful if they had an all weather track (which is what I think they really want given the way they now treat NH racing) Aintree is superbly managed these days and could easily take a December and a January meeting (Saturday and Sunday ?) Page: Previous 1 2 |
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More from the other thread regarding todays fiasco at Wincanton....
freetea 22 Mar 16:23 With two races left at Wincanton, the clerk of the course still will not appear on RUK. He will also not answer rumours that the watering mechanism broke down and hasn't been working, hence we have fast ground at the track. guinness2dear 22 Mar 16:24 And loads of NRs.... guinness2dear 22 Mar 16:29 Unsatisfactory say's Lid's.... Incompetent i say... jonjo 22 Mar 16:33 The calibre of the people in these posts must be coming into question now... We've had Ayr racecourse under the 'stewardship' of Katherine Self almost becoming a joke last year, with ridiculous forcasts leading up to the Scottish National & then 'lucky bag' ground for the whole of the flat season...... This is a big issue & punters need to keep at it. |
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Turftrax website currently unavailable ?
Too many broken welly sticks maybe ? |
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Going stick readings should provide some hilarity if nothing else this season mate
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Welly stick not needed today :^0
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Hic
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Time for another crack at the authorities.
Absolutely scandalous how some of the racing world's premier "journalists" deem this as a "non issue", yet if you sign a text or email as Graham Smith or Big Dave Osbore then you seem to have automatic publishing rights..... |
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Windsor's "actual" going today should make good reading...
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Going Reports for Racing on Thursday, 9th April
FOLKESTONE (Updated: 10:42) Good to Firm, Good in Places 1mm rain overnight (GoingStick: Round Course: 8.3 Straight Course: Far Side 7.3, St ands Side 8.3 on Thursday at 10:15) Forecast: Damp and overcast am, cloudy but dry pm Richard Hughes describes it as slow ground after winning the first. Fergus Sweeney says good to soft after winning the 3rd. |
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Winks and Ludders the same....
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I get Good To Soft.
Backs up the what the jocks reported and another load of carp enters the form book |
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Come bak Jonjo, your thread needs you :)
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Just turned on to watch Replay on RUK
Wincanton - Lydia "Official going Good to Firm, but the times suggested at least Good To Soft" Despite the other evidence the going is still entered as Good to Firm in the form book which makes the form book a work of Science Fiction Time to form a punters association and see if we can get things put right???? |
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I'm up for that Mr Empty....
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Zil has unearthed a little more proof that either the scale doesnt work, they dont know how to use it, or something more sinister.......
take a look at turftrax going map archive re Newmarket: April 9th 2009 8.3 and its good to firm April 9th 2008 8.5 and they call it good |
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Plumpton 9.3 Hurdle 9.5 Chase
Good (GF in places) Fakenham 9.1 Good (GF in places) With Going stick readings of 9+ shouldn't the Ground be given as Good to Firm? Warwick (Watered) 8.6 Good To firm Yarmouth 7.3 - 7.9 (straight) Good |
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Market Rasen RP comment
"A dry night but the going description was eased from good, good to firm in places to good all over after being "well watered" according to the clerk of the course, who then altered conditions after the first to good, good to soft in places. The bends were moved out 3-4 yards and the riders in the first reported the ground a bit tacky" Did the clerk update the going description when more information became available or did was his initial assessment way off base |
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RP
Market rasen Result 14 Apr 2009 « 2:30 » 17TH MAY IS COUNTRYSIDE DAY HANDICAP HURDLE (Class 3) (0-125, 4yo+) (2m1f110y) 2m1½f Good 8 hdles Market rasen Result 14 Apr 2009 « 4:00 RACING UK UK´S BEST RACECOURSES LIVE NOVICES´ CHASE (Class 4) (5yo+) (2m6f110y) 2m6½f Good 14 fences Despite a change to Good To Soft, the initial going description remains the same in the result section of the RP. So unless updated, Good will be entered in the form book |
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*change to Good, Good To Soft in places
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Market Rasen....what the heck thread
onlooker 14 Apr 14:41 Always galling this. Spent plenty time going through the form this morning, believing ground was against soft ground horses. dan hardcore 14 Apr 14:54 COCs can't be relied on for going reports. It should be taken out of their hands Got to agree with the posts above Providing fairly accurate information for their form book db's and race cards must be in the interests of companies who profit from this business, so you'd think an independent going description would be at forefront of their minds |
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Just think, when you look at Past Performances the descriptions under the heading " Going" are in a lot of cases probably a work of fiction
Who benefits from turning sport into a random numbers game??? |
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U gotta mark up MHs horse in the 1st then as he appears to have won DESPITE the ground ;)
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False going descriptions and their entries into the form book mean you have no real idea of what a horses ground preferences are, so you could be marking up an horse that shouldn't be marked up
These same entries can also lead to false Sire going statistics and the result is the db's we are using to analyze data are full of false information Garbage in - Garbage out |
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April 13th
Fakenham - Good RP Time based going = Good Plumpton - Good RP Time Based going = Good to Firm Both these courses had a going stick reading between 9.0 and 9.5 (see above) a reading that is n going towards the higher end of the 1-15 scale, indicating ground on the faster side of good More false information entered into the form book??? |
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Tomorrow
Bev GOOD TO FIRM, Watered; GoingStick 10.1 . (Misty and fairly cloudy for much of the day, although it will stay largely dry; moderate north-easterly winds) Inside New GOOD, Good to firm in places; GoingStick 8.7 . (Sunny with just a little patchy cloud during the morning; warm but fairly breezy) (Far side course) - Stands' side Chelters GOOD, Watered; GoingStick 9.3 . (Bright but showery, some heavy with hail and thunder possible later; warm but fairly breezy) All using the same tool, but the interpretations of the reading can vary wildly |
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MARKET RASEN - Jump (Updated:14/04/2009 at 09:19)
Going Good (GoingStick: Chase 7.2 Hurdle 7.1 on Sunday at 10:00) Rails Both Bends have been moved 3-4 yds Weather Forecast: Mostly dry, cloudy and overcast Watering Why is clerk watering when going stick indicates Good safe ground and forecast is cloudy and overcast??? |
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empty how do i find out the time based ground please ?
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You mean RP's Koo???
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yes used t be easy to spot, but not seen em in the re vamp
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Koo
If you mean RP's Go to race meet, Click Full meeting info then Times tab |
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many thanks :)
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There no wonder COC at Market Rasen had to change going description and horse were knackered, he has been watering Good ground
It makes you wonder if these people have a clue what they are doing or is this deliberate ploy to turn the racing into a random number game Onlooker and other bettors have been put away by the COC actions |
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And if your looking in Jonjo - get back on this thread
It needs you and every other person with an interest to show what going on |
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John
Maybe if the Worlds Premier Journo's are made aware they are probably doing dosh due to false info, they may step off Gravy Train for a minute or two |
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He may have been correct , he may have been wrong, but when Andy Beyer was suspicious of This Ones For Phils improvement on his fig, s he shouted it via his column in Washington Post
Do we have journo like Andy Beyer or are they all spineless |
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Spineless...
I posted on the Raser's fred today and what really pees me off is that once again they change the going desription AFTER the first race.. Tooooo late i'm afraid... The CoC's havent got a clue, and it's about time it was taken out of their hands and passed to an independant body... |
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Beverley
RP reports Good/Firm G/S 10.1 Watering to maintain Should this read Watering to alter draw bias? |
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http://www.turftrax.co.uk/going_stick_archive.html
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Cheltenham
8-Apr-08 Good 7.9 17-Apr-08 Good (Good to Soft in places) 7.6 16-Apr-08 Good to Soft (Good in places) 7.4 Today you have a Going Stick reading of 9.3 for Cheltenham and Ground is described as Good. Now, i know i'm just a thick punter, but even i can see that 9.3 is lot higher than 7.6, 7.9 and therefore Ground must be faster |