The most ridiculous things in Greyhound racing .....

the Wimbledon bowser

will be used indiscrimantely over the next few weeks to manipulate the results and try to make it appear a fair track

What a bell end.

With the amount of biases at every track which is nearly always rails rails rails, Wimbledon would be among the fairest the most often.

And as for the 3 runs in week being cruelty to animals, its my favourite week of Greyhound racing, its a great test. Maybe I'm just cruel and don't about greyhounds.
Some dogs thrive on it, some do not, but it is not cruel.

HUNG donk?
do you even own any greyhounds?

I do not currently own any racers except a very minor share. I currently have 3 of my ex racers at home and my mum has 2 of our other ex racers. Have owned more in the past unfortunately they are no longer with us (all ended up on mine or my mums sofa apart from 1 which lives with a lovely lady down my road and I still go to visit him weekly).

Whats your point?

Nice to know
most people think different to your opinion onthe derby runs
,
thinking of getting any more dogs in present climate?

I only attend Wimbledon really and stopped owning dogs there pretty much when they swapped sides, I don't go anywhere as often as now as you can see more from home than you can at the track!
If the track was re done then I would deffo own a dog or 2 again there but until that day I cant really see myself getting involved again.
As for the 3 runs its only actually one more run in the week isn't it as they would be running Saturday+Saturday anyway, im sure if they didn't have the Tuesday run the dogs would be galloped that week, I'm not saying a gallop takes as much out of them as a race but I think people make more out of it than there actually is.

Totally agree with HLAD ,put me right if Im wrong but I cant remember a dog going wrong in the semi finals infact i can think of only  2/3 or over the years who have gone wrong in QTrs ...

As for anyone doubting Hlads commitment to greyhound racing he has 3 ex racers, his, living with him and his lovely family ..
and his mother a keen enthusiast has a couple living with her ...when their numbers sadly deplete ,the space is usually  filled
by another ex racer who has basically been cast aside by so called owners ,like a few of them who have actually posted on this forum,
such as those who owned Velvet Rebel who was actually found wandering the streets of Leeds starving ..
Hlad and another friend of mine owned a dog called Talking Man a great dog who ran at wimbledon ,who basically broke his back
while racing in an A1 ,the dog was treated better than Presidenent Obama would have been ,by some miracle and more money than I care
to mention ,he was able to walk again and is currently happily at home...

The derby is a test of Greyhound and trainer the 3 races in a week are a major part of it ,we could run what we thought were the
best 48 dogs in the country ,then we would never have found dual winners like the ranger and the  hawk u could have ran the top
192 dogs in the country we would never have found tartan khan a dog much underestimated ,the derby and leger double, and he smashed
the clock leger night at wembley ..
Great Greyhounds and great training performances ...

I can remember lively band attacking shamrock point thats the only 5 dog final I can think of that strangely the year tartan khan won

This "test" of a greyhound is a FLOB IMHO.

Anyone who trains them will tell you that it takes a minimum of up to three days for most greyhounds to recover from a run.
That's MOST greyhounds and a MINIMUM number of days.
There will be the odd one that loves it agreed, but you won't get six of those in the derby final.
What you get year after year is two or three carrying injuries in the final guarenteed.

When people come on here and say the best dog never won the derby, that is your reason why.

HLAD there is no need for the insult mate, we all have our opinions.

HLAD - re the Wimbledon Bowser.

The harder the surface gets the greater the bowser's influence. The trainer would have prepared his dog over a good few months to run through the Derby competition, but one circuit of that track with the bowser and all that preparation goes out of the window. I have seen it happen at Wimbledon so many times especially in the Derby heats, remember taylors sky's quarter final, the bowser reversed the outside bias in one fell swoop as I recall.

Insult was unnecessary I apologise.

As for the bowser, if they don't put it round during the meeting the track will end up with a rails bias and  the surface would become loose with no water on the track for what over 3 hours?
The 'reverse' of the going on Taylor's Sky was because there was no going bias that night, I'm sure there are people that know more than me about going but correct me if Im wrong, by putting the bowser round that is only going to help the outside? Never have I known the bowser going round correct and outside bias.

As for the 3 runs its only actually one more run in the week isn't it as they would be running Saturday+Saturday anyway, im sure if they didn't have the Tuesday run the dogs would be galloped that week, I'm not saying a gallop takes as much out of them as a race but I think people make more out of it than there actually is.


IMO since they changed sides the dogs now run over 650m befor coming to stop
it might be only one more run another 650m
I think it does take major toll on dogs makes this derby a true test
to say its ridiculous got a point BUT this is what make its the worlds greatest derby

what a load of shoite, 3 runs in a week is cruelty to animals, what the O P is actually saying is, every owner and trainer who enters a dog in the English Derby is committing an offence and should be prosecuted, these dogs are running 480 metres 3 times in 7 days, they are fed on the best tuned to the minute and cared for like no other animal, you are just having a pop at the English Derby, by the way, there are plenty of Irish owners and trainers hoping to get to the semi-finals. cheers.

paul hennessey trials between rounds if they need it...cant be that tough on them.

As i ve said u could have less dogs and run the race over same period or even extend it by a week but surely the proof is that over
the last 30 years there has not been one dog who has gone badly wrong in the semis ,no one wants to see dogs injured the derby has
been 3 races in a week since i started going its part of the test on dog and trainer ...

some would suggest  a 48 dog invitation races weekly but  then it wouldnt be the derby imo.

I agree with The Bairn I reckon Irish has had a few knocked out in the Qtrs pocket talk imo

definitely right there case, got mutilated in last years semis ... (thank feck for snapper)

massive difference between a gallop up a track solo or with one or two other dogs
and six dogs running at top speed round a narrow track where about one each race gets "Clear Run" on its card
it takes feck all for a dog to pick up a knock from a bump or checking when travelling at top speed.

If it is so safe to run them three times a week ....why is there a week between rounds one and two and three..... and a week between the semis and the final ?

does not make sense to me.

lets bring it on and hope they are all safe n sound at the end

agree with that sentiment 100%

1) UK not having clock in centre/at the track.


2) reference to it being greatest race in world, run at that hole.

Swayne  • May 25, 2013 7:21 PM BST 


1) UK not having clock in centre/at the track.



G S Swayne ....

Tom Kelly ,employed by the GBGB and BAGS at the same time.Think of a bigger conflict of interest than that.

cant see how its cruelty, its not like its regular,
dogs used to race twice in the same night & that was obviously thought of as ok at the time

anyone who has been to the Irish coursing at Clonmel will witness dogs out on their feet after a gruelling run in the morning, watch them do it all over again in the afternoon, why is Irishone not highlighting that. cheers.

Coursing dogs are bred differently. Most track dogs wouldn't be able to compete the second time. As for 3 runs in a week, I don't think it's cruelty but it is unnecessary. They could at least run the quarters  on on the Friday.

you are right about the coursing dogs bairn, but as castnostones says, different breed and different distance, 480 metres v anything up to 500m which is rare. By the time you consider the run to the pick up its probrably 700 metres a time for a greyhound over the derby distance

comparing coursing, gallops and trials to actual greyhound races of six runners around a narrow track is a waste of time imho

how is the derby 3 runs in a week any worse than when a competition has a week inbetween to rest but the greedy owners/trainers send it somewhere else for a one off open (because points=prizes)?

dont see a problem with 3 runs in a week at all most aim for a run every seven days and would get atlest one gallop at home if a dog cant recover after 2 days its because its injured

In the past at Clapton, have known dogs have 2 runs in an evening kennel sweepstakes competition. Never seemed to do them any harm.

yes pocket but we ain't comparing gallops and trials with races are we ?

six dogs, all within a few lengths of each other, juiced up to the ear tags, 35 m p h, around a narrow track three times in a week .... sorry no offence to any contributor on here, but its definitely ridiculous, the dogs ain't the same after they have had a race, and it takes most of them up to a week to recover unless they are seriously injured.

"It is the way it is" ..... as Daryl says, so lets not moan about it, lets carry on having dogs injured running in the semis and the final, lets have more judicial rulings,  razyldazyl georges two that I know for definite ran in the final recently carrying injuries... no wonder the best dog rarely wins  .....

Now that is ridiculous isn't it ... for the  "the greatest derby in the world" ?

Didnt razldazl billy win the irish with a niggle?

Didnt the dog of pat buckleys run in the final with a niggle?

By the time they get too the end of a 6 round comp theres plenty of dogs,no matter what the format,that are feeling something,the same as elite sportsmen and women compete when feeling something,its called sport.

plenty of dogs have ran in Irish Derby finals and semi finals carrying injuries

Indian Joe to name a few. cheers.

You are correct lads and every owner and trainer will tell you they just want their dogs to come back from a race "sound".....

..... so the irony is that when it comes to a Derby many seem to put them out to run "unsound".


I'm not ABS by any means but the format of this Derby event needs looking at. We have a duty of care to these animals. The Scottish Derby has changed in the right direction for the welfare of the dogs imho. Only taking the top dogs available over fewer rounds.

At Kinsley recently in the Gymcrack, one dog failed to finish in every second race. What was said or done about it ? Nothing as yet. Unsafe track imho, now compare it to Coventry for safety, (another step in the right direction).

What does RPGTV do when a dog goes wrong in a race .... they won't show the replay. What's that about? A duty of care to the dog ? the owners/trainers ? the viewers ? the sport ? Its treated like an acceptable loss that we are all expected to take as part of the sport . RPGTV says "hope the dog is OK" and "that's a relief there's the dog at the pick up". FFS couldn't it be down to an unsafe track, grader boxing up pups or poor groundsmanship.

When was the last formulae 1 driver got killed in an accident, when was the last time people stood on terraces and got killed in a crush at football matches ? Sport learns its lessons from accidents , the sports become safer.

We should be continuing to face the demons of this "sport", it can only make the game better, more enjoyable and guarantee its longevity.

are you on the wind up? never read so much nonsense in my life

The Scottish Derby has changed in the right direction for the welfare of the dogs imho. Only taking the top dogs available over fewer rounds.

The Scottish Derby was a great big steaming pile of dog turd

eden star, ballymac eske, mags gamble, paradise martini, teejays bluehawk..... "a great big steaming pile of dog turd" P F ?

yes it was a pile of sh|t, an 18 runner 2 run Derby - shouldn't even have been classified as a Derby

actually 17 runners wasn't it, didn't even have a reserve in it FFS

As I said, step in the right direction, what about a three week derby competition over four Saturdays , one run a week every Saturday night, how about 48 of the best dogs in the world, entries selected on some criteria we can argue about later, another step in the right direction. The Grand National, Cheltenham races all have their limits, they don't increase the number of races judged upon the size of the entry do they ? .

The Grand National, Cheltenham races all have their limits, they don't increase the number of races judged upon the size of the entry do they ? .


more drivel i see - since when do they increase the amount of races in the Derby?? The Derby is 6 runs

If they got over the maximum greyhound entry (192) I bet they would make it seven rounds. Lets be honest there's plenty of "steaming piles of dog turd" in this years entries .

PF we obviously agree to disagree. I go to Cheltenham every year to see the best racehorses, fit as feck and ready to go. I don't go there to watch them run injured or "carrying a niggle" . The three runs in a week is a killer for the irish dogs as you well know. It wouldn't hurt to cull the field down to 96 and cut out the three runs in a week.

Well they got over 200 a few years back and it was still only 6 runs so you'd lose your bet - 2 qualified from some of the first round heats

So I lose a bet... no change there then

Its a six round race over 5 weeks that ends up with dogs running injured and carrying niggles in the final. Its hyped as the "greatest" derby in the world, run at a sh1thole in south west London and the best dog doesn't always win it . Forgive me for thinking that's ridiculous.

The Derby is the Derby because it tests every inch of the dog aswell as its trainer.

It tests the fitness,hunger and trackcraft of the dog, the knowledge of the dogs trainer keeping the dog fit, sound, well fed and hungry to go again.

As PF states the Scottish "Derby" was a joke, 2 one off races are not a test and as much as you may think it means the best dog doesn't always win that is the name of the game anyhow whether you are running once a week, three times a week or once a year.


As for the state of Wimbledon, i think that has been very well documented. As a regular and past owner at the track i also agree it is an embarrassment, to see the likes of Shelbourne (of which i have never been) and other tracks in Ireland Wimbledon just looks dark, dank and beaten up. Im sure we are all hoping that that is something that can be sorted asap.

The Derby is the Derby because it is a supreme test of Dog and Trainer. Nobody would bother to climb Mount Everest if it was 100 metres high.

"the knowledge of the dogs trainer keeping the dog fit, sound, well fed and hungry to go again"


"If a dog won the Derby with his tail painted yellow, by the next day half the dogs in training would have their tails painted yellow." Alessandro Piras 1998..... still true today imho.

?

Piras is a genius

http://www.greyhound-data.com/knowledge.php?b=3¬e=272848&z=L0tg_s

By the time they reach the final every trainer is and probably always will be looking for something to make their dogs run faster on final night, the Hungarian went too far a couple of years ago, most trainers don't ever get to a derby final let alone know how to handle it if and when get there. The stress of greyhound races often without visible symptoms, can affect greyhounds over the 6-72 hours during the post-race recovery period. In other words the dog could be suffering but most trainers wouldn't have a clue.

So in all honesty then Irish, if the Trainer doesn't know what are they meant to do. Surely they have to assume post checks that their dog is fit and ready to go.

You cant run a dog assuming they have a niggle?

How many would withdraw a hound from the final that they would have no hesitation of doing in a £500 final at Rommers, due to injury?

I'd imagine the vets are overworked from the 1/4s onwards

But it is still The Derby

Because the trainer doesn't see a niggle doesn't mean the dog has'nt got one. An example is particular in dogs, they get dysuria, which means they are so stressed they cant pi55 properly after a race, sometimes they do pi55 little and often but its a thin line rather than a usual thicker flow, sometimes they don't even pi55 for two days after a race, now the trainer has got to be pretty vigilant to be sitting up all night for two nights waiting to see how it pi55es hasn't he ? Sometimes its not until three or four days after the race the dog gets back to normal pi55ing on everything

The trainer's are mostly guessing its ok and as DML says they would put them in anyway, which is where its wrong imho.

I understand that but the trainer not knowing a dog has a niggle compared to the trainer knowing the dog has a niggle are 2 completely different things.

This is veering off point from what i can see.

absolutely. we all have known trainers that cover up niggles.

is it right, is it wrong? do you miss the chance of legend status with a niggle? would BD withdraw Eske at 1-5 in the final, if he was carrying something that would usually be a wd? would you, as the owner?

doubt it

Well you are saying its a supreme test of a trainer and if you asked them they would not want their dogs running three times in a week, because they know whatever they do its a lottery if the dog recovers in time or not.

I do think the three runs a week is wrong, and can see no reason for it.

But taking niggles out of it that is what makes the Derby the test it is.

Kudos comes with achieving what is most difficult, and this is probably the most difficult competition to win due to its format, and the class of dog that competes.

In all honesty would you prefer 3 Scottish derbys a year or 1 English Derby. I know what i'd choose.

No, just one run per week

quite interesting as to why it is the test it is. its The Derby. would you get any less entrants if running at,say, Monmore? Put up 100k and you'll get them.

I'm not sure that the three runs is an incentive

I think the Scottish Derby is a step in the right direction, that's all I said.
Greyhounds need a week at least to recover, 5 races in 4 weeks, once every seven days would still be a test, but not a cruel one to the participants.
Dealing with these animals every day I can't believe we are having these conversations .

Everyone who comes on here agrees that the WELFARE OF THE GREYHOUNDS IS PARAMOUNT so why put them through three races in seven days ?

If you look at different sports each has their own supreme test.

Golf is The Open - Made difficult due to weather, the course that it is played on, the number of par 5's etc.

Horse Racing - The Gold Cup or Grand National over jumps, testing the best horses over distances that push horses to their limit, having to jump at speeds that they wouldn't have to before, the Grand National being an extreme in both distance and obstacles.

The flat having the Derby over its undulations at Epsom.

Im sure you could list other tests for other sports as could i but the point is that if you change the format, you change the test thus imo losing the kudos that goes with it.

It is tough, but it is meant to be. That is why the prize is the biggest, and that is why it is the most difficult to win.

fair nuff

The Open goes from one course to the next year in year out. Its the same four rounds but different venues, tees and holes.
The Grand National fences are changing nearly every year now.
The Epsom Derby was on a Wednesday now on a Saturday, did involve the participants walking across to the start now they canter back down the course for a mile and a half.

The formats on all these events are evolving, these tests are dynamic not static.

Asking a greyhound to race 6 times in 5 weeks isn't a test, its cruel, you really need to see how they are when they come back from one run sometimes.

the 3 runs is not ideal and i dont see why it is the way it is however you know the score when you pay the 250 to enter if you own a dog that likes a rest after a run and shows a drop in form if reraced to soon then you would say the derby if not for you and not enter

all this the dogs got niggles half the time its the trainer getting the excuse in beforehand in case the dog doesnt run to good



the scottish derby was a joke (good luck to the winner and connections they cant do no more than beat other dogs entered but 16 of them and only a handful of top dogs the comp will be forever devalued now)

Devaluation is my point pp

If you were really worried about devaluation and kudos .....

Would you really be running the flagship race at Wimbledon ?

Wimbledon wasn't always as it is now though irish

I mean Wembley was a hole before it was re-designed.....

well its gone right downhill and  they didn't worry about kudos by moving it to the other side
very cruel to the spectators as well
wading through pi55 to take a pi55.....

good luck

like playing the cup final in a park (but thats another topic)

to be fair, it does make the trainer peak a dog through an event, you got to be good to do that

.... and lucky

"Lets be honest there's plenty of "steaming piles of dog turd" in this years entries"

you've got such a way with words irish

not my words .... p f's

Are you new to the game irish? Ain't there always been a tight run schedule at those stages of the Derby?

donemylot has a major point regarding peaking dogs,if there is one thing I could never understand was delores ruths dogs being balls out from the qualifiers  years ago the trainers brought there dogs along as the derby progressed ,charlie lister
with taylors sky was brilliant training performance in recent years imvho ..not knocking ms ruth great trainer but you have to wonder ,spec last year at 1/4 finals stage u could not hold a stronger hand than she had ..

your still saying its cruel Irish, do you not think the connections love their dogs ?

Maybe u will be standing outside derby night handing leaflets out

I will have a bucket of pish in the cab ,ready

I think most people who come on here love their dogs let alone the connections case
was there both nights case, no worries, no leaflets though,
great to see coolavany bert connections back there.
Wont be in a rush to go back again though !

irishone,if Wimbledon track was looked after properly and wasn't such a hole,3 runs in a week is not a problem to a strong dog......the derby is a test to find a strong dog.
a top class trainer will know that if his dog doesn't pee for two days that something is wrong,and I can tell you that all my dogs always had their urine examined regularly,aint a big deal sample sticks can be bought at a chemist ,any trainer worth his money will know if his dog aint right the next morning after a run,so your pee argument is void.
the main problem with 3 runs on a sand track is as you call niggles...broken nails,toes,damaged dew claws and pad burns,the majority are received when the dog is pulling up on sand.we all know grass tracks are safer but Wimbledon is sand,yes you run your derby on a sand track that doesn't even have a watering system,just a bowser on a tractor!!!!!!!! these niggles can be treated and yes a toe will end up leaving a dog off,but most are treatable and as I say a proper track and most are avoidable.
so in regards to 3 runs being cruel,thats nonsense.
2 runs in Scottish derby.....my dog runs in first round,qualifies but next morn has a sprained wrist....so I ease him off roadwork and lightly swim him for week,on day of final I freeze his wrist...lids open out he pops and wins...2 runs with a damaged dog!!!! that treatment would not hold up for 6 runs.....which is safer/crueller?
by the way,this aint a go at you irishone.sorry if it comes across that way

No problems, as I said before we all have out opinions, there is always that doubt about the non-visuals though isn't there ? and once you get on those sticks there is the cost element of the testing, whereas we know with the six day rest its your best chance of getting it there fitter, at least you got a bit of time to reassess and readjust. The peeing isn't a question of timing for me more a matter of quality, agree its very hard to assess without the testing as you say. Agree 100% about the sand, used to be big lumps of clinker in the old days though from the speedway track.

a six day rest is fine....but if you have a six week every sat night event all you end up with is a very big sweepstake......the 3 runs in a week is the tester..in my view anyway,like you say we all have opinions...maybe a solution would be a vet cert from the track vet on Friday night,but then maybe a greyhound vet and I would agree that a sore pulmer muscle is just a warwound and the anti cruelty crowd would scream that the derby winner is badly injured in the pelvic region,lol....

jasus ,long time since I thought about the speedway track in the center of shelbourne park,feck showing our age now......I remember my dad bringing me to see knockrour slave run there,was a different track then .....as someone mentioned earlier ,indian joe....he must have been about 77/78 ????

Indian Joe was running around HQ at 77 years old?, feck me he must have been good..

lol Swayne from what I rememder lovely big black dog......no grey at all lol

To say that Ballymac Eske might have his card marked is verging on an egotism run wild.

RE Kreight King  - Pat Curtin says on RPGTV concerning its stumble last week

"If it had been this Saturday night that the dog stumbled like that.... we would of withdrawn it for the Tuesday night (semis)...there is no way we could have got it ready in time.... but because we have the week to recover .....hes still in for saturday"

The three races in a week turn this great event into a lottery !

I have turned her off; cannot stand any more inane twittering.

... and that's another thing
that dodgy wooden stand at the first bend
thought they were all banned after the Bradford fire ?
you lot are supposed to be health and safety conscious
yet that fire hazard still exists for greyhound users
how did the GRA get away with that when the football club could not use their wooden stand?

ridiculous ?

was interesting what Curtin was saying about all Irish dogs picking up niggles, perhaps Wdon aint is safe as previous years and scarcity of funds is taking its toll on track

no self respecting fire would be seen dead at Plough Lane

The most ridiculous things in greyhound racing ......

BALLYMAC ESKE and TYRUR SUGAR RAY , two of the best dogs on these hallowed islands,   going out in the Semi's having not been able to handle

the three runs in a week .

that is absolute b0ll0cks

Another classic post fack me they have been going 6 weeks over in eire dogs injured right left and center

but its the 3 runs in a week that causes problems

Stopping  one man and his dog  from competing in this country
All they want is dog walkers having 100 dogs in there kennel n o b

Must admit was tempted to speak with Liam to see what he said about the track and Vic's injury but didn't get time to chat long enough. He seemed resigned to the dog's fate afterwards but if he had of pulled Vic it would have been a four dog derby final ....

Nightmare all round   ... and to be honest I'm glad he didn't.

what would the track have anything to do wuth Vic's cut pad?? he did that at home

Took me the wrong way there p f, just wanted to see what he felt but what he did say was "Well that's the dogs for yer".

just wasn't meant to be for the dog - thought he was desperate unlucky this year at Wimbledon and then getting the cut at the wrong time

Think vic was a bit  unlucky  don pf got a knock, but if u look at semi week b4 actually in identical positions at 2nd bend
for some reason there was a 5 lenght turn around in form .I would call that reason Charlie

I had quite a hefty bet on vic at 8s was actually oi oiing round 1st 2 bends was very disapointed, tbh pre race I would
have taken him a lenght behind Jack at 2nd bend ,the dogs had plenty of chances to get the job done in big races over the last
year or so ..Obviously despo to get cut in paddock and have to feel for connections on that ..

I know it was a sub standard Derby as many have said on here, but for me TSR and Vic go down as two of the "great" dogs after it. When you think they contested one of the Wimbledon semi finals and the front three were the same in the result of the final (Vic, Impac, Jack) the pair of them are so consistent in getting through yet not winning a derby !

1) Oncourse prices
2) Viewing at many tracks - terrace layouts - (the punter like the winning line view)
3) Entrance price.