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10 Feb 09 20:15
Date Joined: 25 Sep 02
| Topic/replies: 2,625 | Blogger: seaside's blog
One of the few tracks I never went to

What was it like

From what I remember they never had any big races there

Could be wrong

Need someone to tell what it was like

What distance did they race over ?

What was the market like ?
Pause Switch to Standard View New Cross Anyone ever go there ?
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Report Southwark Star February 22, 2010 10:52 AM GMT
I used to live in Ilderton Road first right on the canal bridge,less than 500 yards from New Cross. Our address was SE 16, so New Cross was in Peckham. Wonder if Dell Boy went there.
Report did47 February 22, 2010 3:12 PM GMT
Heres the explanation. Numbers 1 to 187 and 2 to 132 Ilderton Road were SE16, remainder of Ilderton road was SE15. Have double checked this. I also have dozens of old racecards and speedway programmes confirming the stadium was in SE15.
Report Southwark Star February 23, 2010 5:25 AM GMT
Thanks for that, it might have cost me a few quid because i was convinced it was SE 16.
Report SkintofGreatYarmouth August 6, 2010 11:51 AM BST
A fabulous thread. As a racecourse workman for over thirty years i knew many and worked for some of the characters mentioned. I still work on the racecourse fronting Ed Thompson's joint. Could anybody tell me what happened to the great Paul Gilliat, as i heard he was / still is, in prison ?
Report ColonelsRib August 6, 2010 1:21 PM BST
New Cross - Used to go from a tender age. Dogs were kennelled five minutes walk away,over by the railway arches and all the staff used to live more or less near by, one trainer had over a 1 hours journey there and the same back to where he lived, on public transport. and they had some good open racers in the 1950's Prince Lawrence refused entry for the Springbok (no experience they said) he walked away with the Grand National a few weeks later. New Year Hurdles and Open Hurdles two years on the trot and many others Our Tim II Trafalgar Cup Marazion Millpool British National Produce Stakes, Spotless O'leer and many othe top class dogs.  Trainers Harry Spoor Charlie Smoothy J Appleby J Tallantire Joe Pickering Norman Chambers. John Shevlin had Sherrys Prince there to start with  Those were the days.  A track long gone and in its heyday a good one
Report mrig457 August 6, 2010 4:21 PM BST
Skint - I've wondered about paul Gilliatt too - did he go inside for murder?
Report WADDY58 August 6, 2010 4:58 PM BST
Report whitmarsh August 26, 2010 11:43 AM BST
Paul Gilliatt was a first class bookmaker at Harringay always laying lumpy bets with pleasure.In the early seventies he took over from his father Bill.He was the complete opposite to his son,a proper fiddler who often had governors in the book.To look at Bill Gilliatt he put you in mind of a "broken down" actor.He used to wear a bow tie and always had a swig out of his hip flask.Paul had a good job with Hammersmith council and started betting on the old mans dog pitch in the evening.The old man wanted him to have a
Report whitmarsh August 26, 2010 11:49 AM BST
respectable job,but Paul was a revelation as a bookmaker and was very successful.He inherited the racecourse pitches as well,there used to be a rule that you had to be with your father a certain amount of time,thats why young Victor Chandler missed out on old Victors pitches.Regarding Paul I believe he is out of the shovel now but I dont want to talk about that.
Report Mr. Memory August 26, 2010 12:19 PM BST
"whitmarsh".......Young Victor missed out as I heard that he was training to enter the hotel business.
During Victors illness, Charlie Mendoza used to bet for the firm & Victor eventually passed away on a Friday.
I was at Kempton the next day & Bernard Howard marched across, pulled up Victors joint & flung the lot on the ground.
His exact words were "Victor made the f-----g rules so you can f.....g obey them"
A horrible man who I understand had some trouble with the Inland Revenue
Report SkintofGreatYarmouth August 26, 2010 12:57 PM BST
whitmarsh, Very many thanks for your reply. I have since been told of the Paul Gilliatt situation / story and fully appreciate that it is not for discussion on here.
Report whitmarsh August 26, 2010 3:53 PM BST
Mr.Memory,You are exactly right regarding Bernard Howard.Old Victor didnt want his son in the racing game just like Gilliatts.
Sogy,Do you go to Yarmouth dogs?The last time I was there was with a friend from London who made a book there,Arthur Thompson.Ted Waite,who bet "without the fav",was also from London.Teds father made a record that was played on the wireless"Youve never seen a Straight banana"
Report SkintofGreatYarmouth August 26, 2010 6:07 PM BST
whitmarsh, I have clerked at Yarmouth dogs for the best part of thirty years for various bookmakers. Among the bookmakers standing circa. 1980, were your friend, Arthur Thompson (who sadly is in very poor health), Ted Waite / Ted Burt betting as you correctly said, 'Without the Favourite' with his workmen Georgie Hunt (pencil) and my great friend Teddy Jessop (floor), Alan Pye betting under the Duggie Pye (his father) umbrella, Teeny Manning, Johnny Gallant, Dave Richards, Duggie Toft, Albert Eagle, Jack Cook (apologies to anybody i have forgotten).
Report whitmarsh August 27, 2010 6:14 PM BST
SOGY,Last time I spoke to Arthurs son,Johnny,he told me his dad wasnt so well.You mention some names from the past,Ted,Georgie Hunt and Teddy Jessop worked for Mick Hart for many years.Teddy Jessop lived close to me before he moved up your way many years ago.I stayed in Duggie Pyes hotel a few times,a lovely place.I remember Teeny Manning,the nice man who worked for him was ill with Parkinsons when I saw him on the July course a good few years back.Gallant also bet at Yarmouth races,he was a good layer.Did Futter bet at Yarmouth dogs?
Report SkintofGreatYarmouth September 1, 2010 12:54 PM BST

Duggie Pye's hotel was called the Cavendish.

Teeny Manning's workman was Brian Martin.

Futter's were only ever office bookmakers.
Report celticgr September 8, 2010 12:42 AM BST
I fluked finding this thread,amazing stuff here...too many names to mention
Raf,Banks,Stuttery Roy,Dennis the Chest,Dennis the Singer,Albi Parsons,Mick Harvey,Alan Kinghorn,Billy Brown,Manchester Jimmy(the wig,The One,Ebby,Cecil Hobson and on and on

So a question?

Anyone know what happened to Dave Saphir....lovely guy,ran the golf scoiety and done his boots every time...nb the Del Nash coup at Leatherhead...
or Bobby Edwards,Alfie Edwards,Tom Lawrence
Update on a few people mentioned here

Billy Brown is fine but bored
Dennis the A1 and looks younger every day
Del Stogden,son of the chest sadly passed away last year,one of the nice guys
Bob Tellick doing well thankfully
Mick Fletcher got married Monday
Jimmy Murphy had an op recently...recovering

Some of the guys I here I must know,your memory is incredible a good site to check out is pathenewsuk.....tap in bookmakers and you will see some stuning old films from way back,a great colour film from Brighton about 1970,as Charlie Mendoza is betting for VC,you will see Jimmy Styles,Chris Brown,Bobby Mack,another nice guy,Benny Services,Willie Burt,also a great bit of colour film form Salisbury,with Teddy Bell looking like Jack Regan not Regan the bookie...hope he is ok?great shot of Eddie Avalon and one I had forgotten Steve Dee,those who are a bit older try the variety club at sandown films,you will see Sonny Dennis in there,Fingers and a few more,some of the stars that went there were top class,maybe do a search on Goodwood also
Oh and on the Brighton joint not working....Jack the bar...good job the guys wernt taking a few quid our  of the hod,sure I noticed Benno Millers brother Sammy shown

Also try itn news clip site

Report Mr. Memory September 8, 2010 7:24 AM BST
"celticgr".......It is refreshing to have a new name on this thread.

Unfortunately, I heard that both Alfie Edwards & Roy Curtis have passed away.

I am sorry to hear about Derek Stogden.......the last time that I saw him was at Lingfield & he spoke about retiring to France.

This contribution must seem like John Stubbs & his "sicknotes" in the Sporting Life.
Report celticgr September 8, 2010 10:08 AM BST
Oh dear,sad news about Alfie...he wasnt that old,he seemed more intent oh having a laugh than making a you recall him wearing a cape?your memory is so good my money is on yes...hopefully Bobby Edwards is ok?
This is going to become a huge obit column but Derek did indeed retire to France,a built the most magnificent house,he was far more cultured than he ever let on,being a great cook and master craftsman,his brother Pat has just retired from the City,you may still see him at the races occasionally..they were chalk and cheese and Pat was a legend in his chosen field.
I knew about Roy,and this may become boring,but what a nice guy,the story about laying the 3 ponies on was true and hilarious.
Some other names I recall

Shuffer...who was about 75 and still playing football,worked latterly with Steve Griffin at White City..
Jackie Keith...
Johnny Cotton...who worked with Charlie Pollard
Vittles..another dog tic tac
an old guy called Joe who tic tacked at Wimbledon and Slough with Desi Harris....drove an old moggie Morris at about 5mph
John Pegley and Dougie Matthews,perfect partnership until they had a row at Windsor one night
Freddy Sabini,sadly passed away in Italy related no doubt to the Remo you mentioned earlier,bet under the name of Wilson at Harringey,and worked with Jackie Cohen at the fact so many people did the races then the dogs in those days...havent heard how Jacks son John is for a while although Richie with Sunderlands ex Kinghorns says he is in Thailand

Ringlets by John Stubbs,much mocked but not that bad for a read...

Couple of the workmen have Facebook pages,Charlie Miller,father of Kate and Bobby Pearce who works with Sam Harris,Dave Brewer who worked with Colin Webster also

What is the thread about White City please....some names from there
that will dust down my memory banks,we had booked the last night in the restaurant,would have taken my camera,but the odious people who owned in closed it on the previous Thursday

And lastly...any news at all about Dave Saphir
Report celticgr September 8, 2010 5:40 PM BST
This is a good set of characters from Brighton

this is a long thread,but previously mentioned in this who are shown are
Bobby Mack
Jimmy Styles
Steve Gibbs
Charlie Miller...having a 200/100 back
Barry Dennis
Sam Harris and Bobby Pearce
Dougie Newton the sp returner
Report celticgr September 9, 2010 1:49 AM BST
I stumbled upon this thread as was doing some research on Greville Baylis,the internet is amazing,although no doubt it killed the live racing game,dogs and horses...
The reason for my research was as my father has been ill for a while and I needed to stimulate some conversations he could relate to,even though he is quiet ill he knew practically everyone on here,he has trouble recalling things five minutes ago but 50 plus years ago he is bang on the money and we sent two good hours tonight before he got too tired,so my personal thanks to the contributors....I honestly have no idea who you are but better than any medicine and operations believe me.One non on course story related to me was from lADBROKES head office was in Harrow,above  Greville Bayliss called up to have a dog bet,probably slipped in by my Dad,anyway the telephonist pulled him up for being over his credit that so he replies,I won 40k today....general panic sets in at Lads HQ as no one has heard or found the of the settlers had missed it(names protected) and swiftly put the top slip in his pocket to save himself the inevitable sacking .....and it was flushed down the loo....luckily for Greville they had a pretty good taping system and the bet was found and paid out...fancy being the guy who had to tell Cyril that they did 40k and no one knew
The same legendary settler had one of the most strange bets I have ever seen...after a heavy nights punting at Slough he and Jeff Curly Curry played poker,this moved onto an old style tratoria in Staines,again the card game dragged on until we were the only punters left in the place....Curly ran out of readies and in a last gasp effort to win his money back asked the waiter to bring over one of those huge catering cakes out...the bet of course was to eat the lot....the waiter groaned and said"not again Curly" you did it last week....I liked Curly a lot...the evening ended with both of them pigeon stepping from the end of Curlys road to his house...nearest "guess" wins...needless to say Curlys guess of 94.5 steps was pretty close
Its late but this also reminds me of the other legend that was Aussie Jack....who befriended a punter with one eye called Tully(he claimed to be Lord Weinstocks brother),the story goes that they were travelling together by car to Brighton and needed to have a bet...which was next or cat,even 500 a go......Jack called right every time,winning a few quid.....of course he had planted some people from the dogs home along the way
Report Mr. Memory September 9, 2010 12:34 PM BST
Greville Baylis ?...................we are talking about 40 years ago. He was quite a handful in the Ring & his name brings back memories of others like Jimmy McAllister.
Report celticgr September 9, 2010 3:48 PM BST
He died in I guess 1975,someone on here mentioned how,proper tragedy,the settler story was true by the way...I used to speak to him most days,he liked a bet on the football,which had just come back from being illegal,and it was my preferred sport to bet on then.My father was really close to him and after he passed on I was invited up to his flat to be given some,everything was top top drawer,all Jermyn Street or bespoke...pity it was miles too big
Knew Jim McAllister,mainly from York,and had a brief talk last night which concerned Topper,he was indeed very mean,would kip on other peoples hotel room floors for nothing,then have 20k on one.One day I was lucky enough to have lunch with Phil Bull at York,must have been the Ebor meeting and Greville....would have been 16 as got my O level results the same day...cant say they ever came in that handy

Not wishing to be a pain,what was the White City thread...was it the one about the trainers...I had a few dogs there and never missed a meeting for yonks

On the Ted Binns thread,Georgie Gunn was also a leading light...we worked together many many years later.....have a lot of time for him,hope he is well...he looked like Dave Sexton...whom he once got me FA Cup Final tickets from...

Others who havent had a mention were Fred Stevens who bet under the name Barclay originally,same as Topper,have 20k on,then flimp for a pound,gather he wasnt universally popular but had his good points.
Report Mr. Memory September 9, 2010 5:30 PM BST

Google & enter "Ted Craze".........will bring you to the White City thread on the Internet.

I had lunch with Phil Bull at York was in Joe Ward Hills box. Thompson Jones & Richard Baerlein were also there.
Report celticgr September 9, 2010 5:41 PM BST

talking of Craze,try the link above,you may have seen it...will post the link on the White City trainers post and the one you mention

Best wishes
Report expat September 11, 2010 8:14 AM BST
Some more interesting posts here Ceticgr and Mr M. The mention of Bob Pearce brings to mind film of a 'young' Bob from ca. 1984 when he appeared in an early C4 production called 'The Optimist', starring Enn Reitel. It was a silent film series and Bob appeared as a course bookie and tic tac, at I believe Kempton and Epsom. Think it was called 'Turf Luck'.
Report mrig457 September 11, 2010 5:35 PM BST
Celticgr - interesting you should mention Jeff Curley Curry. I used to remember him when I was a kid...he used to an habitue of a small independent called Harwills in Staines where I was from. What's he up to now?
Report Southwark Star September 11, 2010 9:57 PM BST
I am still compulsive, roulette dogs and horses. If you was a regular at Harwills can you remember the cribb games wasnt bad was I . Be Lucky.
Report celticgr September 11, 2010 10:24 PM BST
There your answer

still battling away

sure to crack it one day
Report mrig457 September 12, 2010 12:00 PM BST
Southwark - you were a legend at the cribb games, but I was too young to be involved..was about 12 at the time...wouldn't be allowed in nowadays! I always remember Tubby Derek the Boardman (used to see him tic tacing at winmbledon dogs, whatever happened to him?)Stan the Settler,Dave the manager and the owner who was a real misery guts! I also remember a bloke called Basil who smoked a pipe and was the butt of everyone's jokes. Happy days...
Report Southwark Star September 13, 2010 11:16 AM BST
Dave Goode who was the joint manager has passed away so has the owner Johnney Soden, he wasnt a bad fellow used to tell some good stories. His original partner was Harry Tripp the har in Harwills, Johs first name was William that was the partnership. Stan is OK i was with TimSt George last week who knows Stan. Basil is still about useing the same shop now a Corals on Stainash Parade. Do you remember Mick the postman who did the board when Tubby had his day off. Tubby was the neatest boardman i ever come across in any betting shop, good times not coming back.
Report mrig457 September 13, 2010 12:17 PM BST
I do remember Mick the Postman! Blimey that's a blast from the past. I used to give Tubby an occasional lift to Wimbledon dogs when he was tic-tacing. A great source of stories..he was apparently a pal of Scotch Jack Buggy of gangland fame. I was a 4 nights a week regular at Wimbledon from the early to mid 90s...I used to stand with Skinny Donald and Pat Kehoe and owned a few dogs in partnership with Morrie O'Sullivan. All really nice people and very funny too! I haven't been for over 10 years...happier times for sure. Are any of them still about?
Report Southwark Star September 13, 2010 12:52 PM BST
Mrrig i speak to Morry quite a lot we spoke this morning, he is flying. e still goes to Wimbledon Friday and Saturday nights, you wont miss him.
Report mrig457 September 13, 2010 2:33 PM BST
Thanks mate. Tell him 'Garry' says hello. He'll remember me as Andy Georgalis' mate. We used to own a dog called Small Cheetah with Tommy Foster. Morry says we bought it from a big cheater!!!
Report whitmarsh September 13, 2010 3:53 PM BST
CelticGR,I saw Dave Saphir at a funeral and he told me he moved from Bracklesham Bay to Chichester.Tommy Lawrence was at Teddy Driscolls funeral.Old Alfie Edwards,brother of George and Bobby,died but Young Alf is living in southern Spain so Im told.Sid Jacobs was a smart man who worked for Binns many years ago,his father had a spiel in Hatton Garden.Sam the Barbers dad had a barber shop round the corner in Leather Lane.Sam had a brother Yossil who was a very good clerk.During the war he got a job in the army pay corps in the City not far from where he lived cont.
Report whitmarsh September 13, 2010 4:02 PM BST
but was frightened of the air raids and went on the current bun to Leeds.I last saw Aaron one afternoon a good few years after the Huntingdon incident.I was having a cup of tea in the kitchen of Stan Kennetts kennels behind the old Hackney track when he delivered a dog from Henlow.He looked big,fit and well then.By coincidence I was at Huntingdon that day with my friend Tommy Hammond,we didnt back a winner but one of Toms dogs won at Walthamstow that night.I was standing at Maries bar when Mick Harvey walked in .Id never seen him there before.cont.
Report whitmarsh September 13, 2010 4:10 PM BST
He came over there to see John and act as a kind of peacemaker.From memory wasntit a dispute about an ante post bet for the St. Leger at Wembleywhere John was betting at the time,Jerpoint Diamond and another Jerpoint name.By the way CelticMarie ,who worked that bar for many many yearswas the sister of Dickie Hutton who was Jack Cohens minder.Ask your dad about him Im sure he knew him.My best wishes to your father and I hope he is feeling better,a lovely man and true gentleman always.
Report whitmarsh September 13, 2010 4:17 PM BST
Celtic,You mentioned Freddie Stevens earlier,he was a massive punter in his time.He would fiddle making a book in the silver ring or have a guvnor in the book but would bet a two thousand to one on fifty years ago.You know he was on sticks and ended up in a wheelchair,that all came about from picking a baby up and dislocating his spine he was never right after that.
Report celticgr September 13, 2010 5:21 PM BST

I just replied with loads of bits and the computer crashed,so will do tomorrow again...I am however rushing out to meet up with a guy who loved Sam the Barber and all of his stories...two things,never knew he had a brother and never knew he got his nickname as his Dad was a barber,I thought it was because he was totally bald
Be in touch,good luck
Report Mister E September 13, 2010 11:49 PM BST
lovely thread.
Curly Curry I saw at Kempton last year, still exactly the same.
Re the row at Huntingdon Aaron v John, my recollection was that it was over an Ante Post bet that George Brown had, the mix up in names as described.
Derek Stogden retired to france to renovate a farmhouse as a guest house. Health problems from the start first with the Mrs., then tragically with him. Sad tale.

Harry Tripp, a name from the distant past. When I met him he had an SP office in Ealing trading under the name Ralph Otis. Roger who fixed the lights for the Train Robbery was with involved.

Greville Baylis' name inevitably evokes Staff Ingham with me.
Good luck to all.
Report lumponlarge September 14, 2010 12:13 AM BST
Whitmarsh, my Dad used to have a share with Fred Stevens for a couple of years and I would clerk for them sometimes when I was a boy. One day at Fontwell Levaramoss was 11 to 4 on in a hurdle and Fred and my old man bet a five and a half thousand to two on between them (this is maybe 30 years ago) ... well it whipped round at the start and took no part and they done their dough. My old man went white and the hankie came out to wipe his furrowed brow (which it often did), but Fred didn't bat an eyelid and his words were to the tune "sometimes happens that"... just took it on the chin. He was a lovely man off the stool (like a lot of his generation) but was often a dog on it.

I also used to clerk for Mikey Connors at the Kent points when Sam the barber was the floorman ... it was an education and a pleasure travelling to and from the points listening to all the stories.
Report Mr. Memory September 14, 2010 12:35 PM BST
Having just found an old Cheltenham Badge heavily marked with a security pen,I was at once reminded of someone whose name has not yet appeared on this thread............"STRIDEY"

The papers gave his occupation as "market trader"
Report celticgr September 14, 2010 7:05 PM BST
Last post first

Alf was always ok with me,no idea why he just was,he did however overpower a few people,maybe thats the wrong word,in fact it is the wrong word but hey ho...
Fred Stevens and the old man were at Yarmouth...the meeting that is on today..3 dayer....he ran out of readies,so gave him instructions to"nip" back and pick up some more cash under the floorboards.....20k in 1953...he trusted the old man that much,I only knew him when he was handicapped and old...driving about 15 miles an hour home from the way the nip back was from Yarmouth to London..
Del Stogden....sorely missed
Harry Tripp:have picture of him playing golf...known as Von to the chaps
Think I had a few words with Dick Hutton....went out with Billy Brown and we ended up in a club in Berkeley Square....Bill was lets say....happy...anyway drinks got mixed up and Dick got the hump,all sorted but it could have got out of hand for no later years Jack needed a minder,he used to bet with us,but was so drunk we never even bothered putting the bets in the book...he then decided it was time to open a B account,which meant he wasnt going to pay the A account....well first bet was a winner at Brighton,Pat Eddery rode the winner,he was up to draw before they crossed the we had to put that one in...he died not long after,it was the night Barcelona played Man Utd in the Cup Winners Cup Final,Barca were a good 4/7 chance,so he bet a 350/200 on,half time they were losing so he said to son John....."you better have that bet"...
Mick did go over to the Stow...after the fall out....he and John had got on well before the mix it more or less ended he did his job.
I will give Tom Lawrence a call,great would be trying to put a grand on and nick the market and he would be holding your sleeve and trying to tell you a joke....he worked with us at Goodwood one day,somehow we managed to win,so he was due some honours in my book,so went to give him say 200 quid...our clerk the lovable Lawrence Stone pulled me to one side and told me not to spoil him...only because he could cop it...we had a few laughs with Lawrence..another time.

The great news from the thread is Young Alf is alive!I was really choked when it was thought he had passed on,and good to hear Dave Saphir is ok...he has had a rough time
I went up to the Vic casino Sunday,its nothing like it was,dead and full of those pathetic roulette machines and one armed bandits,lost its was lousy too...and everyone seemed to be wearing jeans and t shirts,when we used to go you HAD to have a of our friends who was Jack Doyle the boxers nephew, never used to wear one,borrow one from the cloak room and never give it back...he ended up with a huge wardrobe
Report Mr. Memory September 14, 2010 10:18 PM BST
I am pleased to hear that I was wrong about Alf Edwards.....I did not realise that there were two people with the same name.

The name Laurence Stone brings back some memories...I first met him when he was John Hudsons clerk for Corals & last dealt with him when he was working for Dave Saphir at Lingfield.....some years ago now.

Tom Lawrence was another good name from the past.
Report Southwark Star September 14, 2010 10:39 PM BST
your Dad tells things that have happened in the past and the stories are brillant, but you must ask him about a commission agent at Epsom. They bet 10/11 10/11 @ 33/1 he got called over and the punter said bet 11,000 on horse A as he went to move someone else said bet 11,000 on B and guess what happened they beat the 2. Just shows you what can happen when you go racing . Things like that have not happened to me, but lets hope i may get a first past the post that gets lobbed out one day,i will take that.
Report celticgr September 15, 2010 12:23 AM BST

I will...hes been really tired but this livens him up for a short while...he spoke to Dennis the Singer the the other day ...and he was bouncing,good to hear someone is keeping healthy...Den puts it down to flying around the ring..hope for us all including you..I will let you tell the Jackie Cohen story when you tried to bet a 10 ponies on...
You are right though,things happen at the races..the Fish came to Sandown one night,the one before the Derby....not a coin in his pocket....he asked me if I knew anything....we had a tip for one of Clive Britains,which wasnt one of the best punting yards....anyway he found 200 quids worth of credit and it lobbed in at 25/1.....we also had a good lead for a Cumani horse in the Derby,not my fav trainer of all he had the lot on and it won at about 10/1 and took himself off on a cruise....while he was away we had a runner in a seller at Brighton,trained by Bill Holden....anyway he fancied it a bit and I had 2k on it for him at about 5/1.....most with Leslie Spencer...anyway that won...he had no idea it had even run let alone I called him up and said you have a few quid to come as the horse won....oh how much says Fish....well you had 2k on it at around 5/1....his reply
"was that all you had on ffs" "I would have had 10k on it"....he was only half joking....of course the run petered out and you now the rest
Mr M
I inherited Lawrence as clerk,and a few didnt take to him but I found him quiet funny...sometimes without knowing it..
His wife was the guvnor,and every penny went back into the house,we were hanging about waiting for him at Beaconsfield ready to roar off to Worcester.....he strolled up 20 minutes late.....he didnt blame the traffic or a million other reasons....he just daid he had to wait for his old lady to come back from Tescos and he had to unload the shopping from the boot and she just wouldnt do it...on another day Lol won a right chunk,but he didnt want to crack it to Sam Burns who was in the car.....her indoors called on the mobile
"how did you go"
"how much?"
then the guessing game went on,she kept saying a figure,1k,5k,10,20k,50k and it went up to 100k which was about the figure
now most people would be ecstatic
All she said was "good"....and when will you be home?

The follow up to this was the next day Roy Saphir had a fantastic cashmere coat....Lol was the target and it fitted like a glove...done deal you would think...Roy wanted 200 quid for it....but no Lol had to go home and ask the was probably worth a grand...well the Mrs like but but asked how much....200 quid....offer him 125 she said...which he did and Roy told him where to go
Dont know what happened to John Hudson,he lived close to me,or Micky Sullivan his clerk after Ward Hill went west...he married Harry Allens daughter,it drove Harry nuts there were no earners
Report Southwark Star September 15, 2010 9:21 AM BST
Celtic this thread is about New Cross and it is where i spent the early part of my life living in Haydock Road, but i recall Brian Woolastan telling me he made a book at New Cross and also Johnney of Bromley. Johnney of Bromley was John Humpherys dad and this is where Tony Morris met John Humphreys for the first time. Talking about the luck factor that may have been a lucky meeting for Mr H. Theres a name from the past Harry Allen, i remember him as a quiet man, when i first went to Ayr races John Hudson was the bookmaker for Corals on the rails. This would have been late 70s 1977 if you put a gun to my head. It was at that meeting i first saw a hundred pound note a punter came into Alfie Bruce for a £500 bet with these lovely red notes.Do you remember when Mick Harvey and Jack Cohen were partners bar one bar one get you in the nick.
Report celticgr September 15, 2010 12:23 PM BST
Maybe lucky for JH but they were a team,its funny when people click...I never knew you were from that part of the world...thought you had a Glasgow connection somewhere...the only time I ever went that way was when I was in the record game...there was a pressing plant down there...the guy would always over press a few copies which we could sell on for 5.99 for a double album...Phil Solomon ran the firm...he had a few horses with Richard Hannon in about 1975/6...a complete nut at time,totally charming others
Harry was fiery and could be a misery....his main love was his dog,loved a day I backed a 33/1 winner at Newbury right on the fluke as saw the trainer Derek Kent have a bet on it as they were running...of course never had time to tell him,and he got the right hump...for a while
Mick and Jack were good  for each other,bar one as you say,mind you in those days Micks biggest bar one was Liverpool in the league..he had a good dog at Wembley..Moonshine Bet..
Dougie Jenkins who lived around Kingston was the clerk,loved a bar one also

Anyone heard from Mac the clerk...was with Toffee and I think Obie his money mixed up with the firms a few times
Report Mr. Memory September 15, 2010 1:41 PM BST
"Southwark Star".......I had my first bet with John Hudson At Windsor in 1973.......he was working for L-dbr-k-s.
He joined Coral when they decided to come out onto the racecourse (for the first time)

They had 5 teams operating:

1).Colin Frankam with Bill Shayler clerking & Billy Dent & Philly Wade on the floor.
2).Neville Berry,his son & Jimmmy Murphy.
3).John Hudson with Laurence Stone clerking.
4).Harry Duckworth up North.
5).Ian Spivey up North & Royal Ascot (the Landings).
Report The Hand Of GOG September 15, 2010 3:29 PM BST

i saw mac the clerk about 3 weeks ago, he is clerking at romford. he was still moaning about all the old problems but he looked quite well.


i'm going to ascot next week, if i mention jemima puddleduck, will it get me into the car park?
Report celticgr September 15, 2010 4:49 PM BST

good news that he is ok...proper mathmatical genius,bit wasted due to his issues....liked the rolling ball,used to give him a ride back from Wimbledon to Putney Bridge...loved a shiny tonic suit...
Report Southwark Star September 15, 2010 10:58 PM BST
Mr Memory you have found a name there Harry Duckworth. He was my bookmaker in the main ring at Powderhall. He was related to fast Eddie who died this year and was one of the biggest funerals in London this year.
Report Southwark Star September 15, 2010 11:00 PM BST
Hand of Gog

I was wondering if you fancied me at the crazy golf at Yarmouth this week!!!!
Report whitmarsh September 16, 2010 2:49 PM BST
Southwark Star,The commission agent who got the two beat was Georgie Brandon.He had a brother Bill who worked at the races.
CelticGR,Would your selling winner at Brighton be called Gipsys Barn Rat?I had a 100/16 in the silver ring with Jack Lyons.I saw the move.How I remember it I fell out with him over it.Takes two to make a bet.
Report whitmarsh September 16, 2010 2:56 PM BST
Lumpon large,Sam the Barber(Sam Helfer)also had a paper pitch outside Chancery Lane tube.Along the way at Holborn Dominic Sabini had a paper pitch and Mikey Connors had a flower pitch.Mikes niece Josie has it now,her daughter is Catherine Tate ,the actress,and they say the old girl in the comedy sketches is based on Mikes sister Joanie.As this is a New Cross thread I should mention Sams brother Yossil used to get to know the business at New Cross.
Report whitmarsh September 16, 2010 3:00 PM BST
I suppose youve all heard the story about Freddie Stevens when he wanted to bet a ten for four on and was told hes got the bet if he puts it in.He counted up what was in the hod and silver tray and it came to998 pounds and 10 shillings so he got thirty bob off the clerk and paid on.
Report celticgr September 16, 2010 3:47 PM BST

you are good,it was indeed Gypsys Barn Rat...Bill Holden didnt have many horses but I followed him all over the country and when the money was down he was always won twice there I think and once at Yarmouth..we went close at Leicester one night but the jockey cocked it up..Not ever sure what Bill thought of us,his public relations were non existent...his secretary was a good guy..not only did I have our money to put on,the office also decided
it wasnt a good result and they sent it down,luckily ours was on first,Leslie of course wanted to get it in the book for William Hill,very shortly after our firm took them over briefly and Les retired,it wasnt imo handled very well,again I found him ok,hard to break through,so having a bet win or lose was hard.
One little story about him and Lawrence Stone,who was his clerk..a Newmarket on a hot sunny day Les had his jacket nicked with a bit of
readies in the pocket....he knew the float figure,but quick as a flash Lawrence said"dont you remember Mr X paid 2k in cash,that must have been in there also"....of course he hadnt but Lol tipped the guy the wink and they split the didnt cost Les as the firm covered the loss
Old Jack Lyons...he must have had a bad day to fall out with you,he was a jovial old soul most of the time,think he was in the print game also..

Spoke to Jimmy Murphy last night,call started when I left work,got in the car,drove 40 minutes to the fish and chip shop and he was still on the line....seemed in great form,he had just had a clean bill of health from the hospital after they had taken out a cancerous growth.....he did tell one story about him and Banko flying uo to Newcastle.....they got the pilot to slip into John Joyce to back the Banks owned horse,he was in full pilots clobber....of course JJ  took this that the horse was bang off,like Banko had expected and they nicked his market....sadly for them the horse wasnt off a yard and Banko ended up laying the lot....he was always up to these sort of tricks....on another day they had backed a horse SP,so rather than them knock it out,which may have been sussed out,the old man called a 2250/1000 with Danny Quastel....a few minutes later Dad tried to call it off saying he had made a way replied Mr Quastel,and proceeded to think it was now a non buzzer knocked it out himself....the plan all along....needless to say it won half the track...sadly I was too young to have been around during this time,it must have been fantastic
Report mrig457 September 16, 2010 5:11 PM BST
Bill Holden was a very warm operator. He trained horses for Pauline Lambton who was married briefly to the Marquis of Bristol (I think?). She loved a punt and in her earlier days had a riding horse stabled at Hampton Court. After riding out, she used to go to the Cardinal Wolsey pub nearby. Pauline had a bit of a thing for my dad, who was an inveterate punter, and used to give him loads of really warm stuff from the Holden/Robinson connection. The Holden yard also had a real tool called Very Special that won at Kempton over Xmas one year. On the flat it was ridden by Ricky Morse(3) who must have been the oldest apprentice in the game!
Report celticgr September 16, 2010 5:52 PM BST
Amazing I was at that pub Sunday,played golf at Hampton Court Palace GC....not as grand as it sounds,great location,but flat
Ricky rode for us a few times,we also had Philip Barnard,tragically killed on way home from Wincanton and Bobby the Bun Curant as well as Bills daughter...when it wasnt really off tbh
We are just dipping our toes back into the horse game,so promise will let anyone know on this thread know when promises and its a while off as yearlings presently...funny quiet a few wanted straight in...if it was a nailed on investment they would have stalled,as this is pure speculation they all jumped at it...madness confirmed
Report celticgr September 16, 2010 5:55 PM BST

honestly dont have a clue who you are...

my mob is

0 7 8 3 1

3 1 6 1 1 7

maybe give me a bell so I can pass names on to a few I speak to
Report whitmarsh September 16, 2010 6:25 PM BST
Jack Lyons was in the print.He made a book the night before racing,got a lot more at that than on course.His brother in law ,Dave Parrish,who was a tic tac used to do a casual saturday night,as did Billy Dent.The money was extra.Bills son Chris was a machine minder,a very good job.George Willoughby who went racing for years as a punter was the "Father of the Chapel"(top union man)Willie who bet for VC started out on(I think)the Daily Mirror.
Report mrig457 September 16, 2010 7:04 PM BST
Celticgr - what a small world! Email me at c d 1 0 6 7 8 3 @ g mail . c o m You won't know me...I wasnt born till the early 70's but I know a few people you might now.

My dad and aunt were really pally with Dudley Roberts in the early days. My aunt who was a few years older than Dudley used to drive him to the dogs when he was a kid. Dudley was too young to drive so my aunt took him everwhere as he was a real good judge. One night at Slough, the jackpot was massive and Dudley had one of the two tickets remaining going into the last leg. Dudley really wanted to team up with the other ticket holder but the other ticket was held by the head of a big and feared travelling family from Staines. Dudley was convinced that if he went in with them he would be turned over. Unbenknown to Dudley, my aunt was on speaking terms with the head of the family (even though they were from completely different worlds). She also didn't give a sh*t for anyone and was completely fearless. So she snatched the ticket from Dudley and marched out to see them. There were apparently few pleasantries exchanged and the Staines people agreed to go halves. Their selection won the heat and Dudley was convinced that my aunt would get knocked for the dough. As soon as the race finished she marched straight over to the bar where they were celebrating to get weighed in. They paid as good as gold and Dudley couldn't believe his luck!
Dudley's dad was landlord of The Jolly Butcher pub in Staines. He was a batman to one of the Courage family during the war and after it finished he was rewarded for his loyalty with a pub of his own. Somehow, Dudley and his dad got cuddled up with Manny Mercer (Joe's brother)and for years they got the most terrific information. When Manny was killed it was the end of an era although by then Dudley had amassed enough dough to start bookmaking. He was also a good fotballer in his youth and he had chances to turn pro until injury curtailed his career. Still, I think he did ok out of bookmaking!
Report Southwark Star September 16, 2010 11:26 PM BST

I have to remind you of this, when talking of the L factor we all backed Hay maker Mac to win a nice bit of money in the Derby 83 or 84 not quite sure. I kept having a few quid on and ended up backing the dog to win 6K and 500 a place a lot of money at the time. How much you had on i dont know but it was substanstal. Please tell anyone who is reading this thread how many times were you wrong on the photo finish, after finding trouble it flew at the finish and looked like it was third for all money, i remember like it was yesterday you jumping up in the air with you fist clenched thinking the dog had qualified for the final. You went higher than Dick Fosbery, then when the result came up it was fourth. But the best was to come on the final night the following week it did a 28 98 in the consolation final the only dog to break the 29 second mark ever. Ihave never said this but i would like to thank Charlie CHAS Miller for telling me it was the best dog he had ever seen. This was before the great Ballyregan Bob. As i said to you you need luck to get on in life, if The Mac would have won the Derby i may have bought an house and been a rich man today but alas THATS HISTORY. Be lucky.
Report celticgr September 17, 2010 12:14 PM BST
It was a chunk,like you every time I got a couple of quid I went in again at 100/1,and like you I recall jumping up as I had thought it had qualified for the final....there is a video of the race and will post the link on here,it still looks like it go was Charlie Miller who put it up....if my seconds had been winners who knows....but the L word eh!
Try to hook up soon,APH is down with his Mum,who is looking after who is debatable,but when he is back we should grab a bite,sounds like Zwirn has got out of his bit of rasher,whatever you think of him he is a character,so may just ask him also,good if not quiet company....can travel my end so will await your selection as an are a judge of one thing
I didnt call Lightbulb yet,but I will
Be "L"
Report celticgr September 17, 2010 12:23 PM BST

This is the link for the Haymaker Mac semi that night

just paste it in to your browser or do a search on You Tube for
Derby Semi 1983....I'm Slippy...the final is there also..if you can bear to watch

You will see a fresh faced TIC TAC in there somewhere
Report celticgr September 17, 2010 12:28 PM BST

For some reason that link goes to the final,anyway on the YouTube site
the same guy has hosted a few films,you can see them on the right!v=RSSousBlRQ0&feature=related

the semis are there

his nom de plum is there SaFinWell,which I thought was good
Report Slippy Blue September 17, 2010 1:16 PM BST
celtigr, this is the link you were after for the semi finals when HaymakerMack got chinned in fourth for him not to qualify. I went to the final that year and saw him break the track record in the consolation final. What a run that was, never seen anything like it. Lots of other races on the menu there as well including Lacca Champion's Derby win amongst others. Here it is for you and others.
Report celticgr September 17, 2010 4:52 PM BST
Thanks Slippy

is this your work?
Report Southwark Star September 18, 2010 2:24 PM BST

I must remind you of another bad luck story. Do you remember going for a touch in the Ayr Gold Cup years ago. I was at Ayr so was you the judge called the result no photo yours had won, as I came back from the line and told you i thought you were beat. You got Liverpool bookie Pat Whelan to ask for 1/10 about your horse. Big Mac started spouting on TV look you can bet ten on a winner. All of a sudden came the dreaded news CORRECTION the winner is now . THE L FACTOR.
Report Green Pride September 23, 2010 10:47 PM BST
Red Shandy, Ballintore Tiger Earles Pride
Report expat March 11, 2011 12:19 AM GMT
Found these photos on the internet: some of the development plans fell by the wayside:
Report TheMadGhost March 12, 2011 9:25 AM GMT
IanP: Just discovered this post.  Hackney Wick had their kennels behind the grandstand opposite the winning line.  I used to go there on Sundays to walk a dog I had with Henry Colebrook.  His head lad was a tall, fair headed lad called John.  He was going out with a girl who worked for Josh Hedley, (can't remember her name).  He also had a kennel lad called Bill, (real uncommon first names).  I moved my dog, eventually, to Wembley as she kept getting sand burns and Wembley was grass at that time.  She was quite decent, won a couple of small opens for me.
Report sparrow November 25, 2011 9:49 AM GMT
You can read this, recyle.
Report tommythejudge November 25, 2011 7:54 PM GMT
What a great read.
Report Mister E November 25, 2011 10:38 PM GMT
just read through all of this thread again.
Fantastic stuff.
Well done to all.

Hope you are keeping well celticgr.
Report expat January 6, 2013 7:55 AM GMT
ttt for link with thread on Chit Chat forum
Report clapton January 6, 2013 1:05 PM GMT
What a great thread, just re-read it, there used to be quite a few good threads like this, sadly seemed to have gone.. just like the Game.. gone forever, how sad.
Report sparrow January 6, 2013 1:15 PM GMT
Whitmarsh and Mr Memory no longer seem to be posting, incredible knowledgeable memories from those two.
Report TheNorfolkMafia May 1, 2013 1:07 PM BST
A thread from a time, when Bookmakers' were Bookmakers', who knew that 13/2 each of two, coupled, was 11/4!
Report ringlets May 2, 2013 1:13 AM BST
Must agree with you NorfolkMafia. Very enjoyable thread,loads of names of people I Knew/know,and remember,as well as Tracks,Dogs,and Horses.Great Stuff.Thanks for the memories all who posted
Report irishone March 19, 2015 9:08 AM GMT
all our yesterdays ...another great thread
Report Millwall 66 March 21, 2015 12:08 AM GMT
What a Tremendous read
Report Green Pride March 24, 2015 6:23 PM GMT
I think I must have been around 10 at the time and had been to Millwall on the Saturday afternoon with my dad. He had dogs at New Cross and we went there in the evening. I was a bit star struck when two of the players I had been watching in the afternoon turned up at the dogs. They were the Brady brothers Ray & Pat.  it wasn't  till many years later that I found out that their little brother could play a bit himself. His name was LIAM!!!! Great days
Report hovekermit March 25, 2015 6:54 PM GMT
I dont suppose your name comes from the greyhound does it Green Pride ? Ray Brady had the railway tavern in Sevenoaks
Report hovekermit March 25, 2015 6:55 PM GMT
Maybe you owned Admiral Benbow as well, or your Dad ?
Report hovekermit March 25, 2015 7:05 PM GMT
Harringay on Monday, New Cross Thursday and Saturday, Charlton Tuesday and Friday, had Wednesday and Friday off...8 races ..Quinella, Duella, Catella at Catford, Cloth of Gold at Charlton, Festival Hall stakes at New Cross, Oaks at the Gay, along with may braziers around the stadium
Report hovekermit March 25, 2015 7:05 PM GMT
sorry, wed and Sun off
Report expat July 10, 2015 10:31 AM BST
Found to join the Harringay/White City revivals.
Report July 10, 2015 10:42 AM BST
hoekermit what about hendon bet you could not get though the turnstyles lol
Report sparrow October 25, 2016 6:54 AM BST
Here it is, mesi.
Report mesi October 25, 2016 4:15 PM BST
thanks sparrow
Report Mister E January 18, 2017 11:20 AM GMT
Best thread ever.

Are Mr Memory and Whitmarsh still about?

Found Whitmarsh's article on a local histrory site the other day.
Report dr . atkins April 20, 2018 9:34 PM BST
the good days
Report ronnie rails April 21, 2018 12:28 PM BST
I have sat with a large glass of red wine manyatime and read this thread.
hope you are well
have a good day
Report dr . atkins April 21, 2018 12:31 PM BST
best wishes to you ronnie rails
Report April 21, 2018 1:16 PM BST
think its a r.i.p mr memory and whitmarsh used to love them with there stories on hereSad
Report sparrow April 21, 2018 2:40 PM BST
The word "legend" is often abused these days but in the case of Whitmarsh and Mr Memory it is totally justified.
Report SlippyBlue April 21, 2018 2:54 PM BST

Jan 18, 2017 -- 11:20AM, Mister E wrote:

Best thread ever.Are Mr Memory and Whitmarsh still about?Found Whitmarsh's article on a local histrory site the other day.

As others have said Mister E, I do think we have long since lost Whitmarsh and Mr.Memory. I used to love reading their stories as did we all. How are you mate? Long time no see and I hope you are in good form. I'm off to G.A. for 3 weeks in june so looking forward to that and getting out of London for awhile.It would be nice to meet up for a pint one afternoon.

Report sparrow April 21, 2018 5:55 PM BST
We can do without this thread being spoilt, thank you. ^^^^
Report ronnie rails October 15, 2021 7:33 PM BST
Just had a hour to kill sat with a nice bottle of chilled chablis and looking forward to  read the 2 great posters whitemarsh and mr memory. ENYOY

Report matso October 15, 2021 10:48 PM BST
What a great thread  ... From 09 Amazing
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