Betfair trading at P/E of 49.73

Someone should dredge up the thread with people saying the share price would fall to £5!

Questions for the 2 posters above?

1. How does a strong share price for an Irish Bookmaker benefit any non shareholding Exchange customers?
2. How does a strong share price for an Irish Bookmaker add any value to UK society?
3. How do Exchange customers benefit from Paddy Power eating all the cake then closing the Baker's shop a few years later?

Please list all benefits to Exchange Customers on the back of a postage stamp and if you fill it then you have my permission to deface her majesty's face on the front.

Calm down dear

Management run the business for the benefit of shareholders. The share price is a measure of how well they are doing.

Their brief is not to keep exchange customers happy by running some sort of gambling utopia, far from it.   

If shareholder value can be increased by nicking value from the exchange customers then that is what they will and should do - shareholders demand it.

It is the way of the world.

People know the business perspective Johnny but answer the questions above please.

You and jamesdean appear to be happy to see the Exchange hijacked by an Irish Bookmaker and run down before closure.

BetFAIR was established to give people better value for a fair return - now it is simply a Bookmaker existing to mainly benefit the Senior Management of Paddy Power Bookmakers.

1. Ensures the long term future of the business thereby enabling thousands of punters to get better value and continue betting using non-traditional methods.

2. By paying taxes , making investments , creating jobs and providing entertainment.

3. Why should exchange customers feel they are entitled to anything ? The business isn't run for their benefit. If management feel that closing the exchange makes the overall business more profitable then that's what they should do. Shareholders will then either 'hire or fire' based on subsequent financial results.

Whether I am happy or unhappy is of no relevance. Management don't have to answer to me.

1. Customers are being hit with the worst value prices seen in the betting industry on the Betfair Sportsbook. The value on the Exchange has been diminishing by the week with the relentless decline in liquidity levels and customer numbers.

Time will tell if the word continue is relevant as I see PP continuing to strangle the Exchange then turn the life support machine off. Many cynics would say Paddy has infiltrated, conquered, ruined then made it ripe for closure.

2. The economies of scale relating to staff is going to result in huge job losses in London therefore not of any benefit to UK society. Dublin is the winner.

No doubt the Irish Govt will be the main net beneficiary on the taxation side as well with the well known techniques to ensure the group profits are made in the country charging the least tax.

The Betting Exchange will be unlikely to receive any advertising and the Exchange website any investment with the same mob in charge.

Entertainment - yes it is funny when Paddy Power/ Betfair Sportsbook make winners laugh after being restricted to penny bets.

3. Agree that the current mob are bookmakers only interested in lining their own pockets and don't give the slightest t oss about Exchange customers.

You should start a petition...maybe then you'll realise how few people give a toss about what you think

The masses have gone Baron and nobody gives a toss now as the Betfair Exchange fades and dies.

See you in Betfair Heaven when you see the light 2 years later than me.

You're like some religious nutter...spreading the word to enlighten the non believers.....with everybody just wishing he'd shut the fuck up.

Betfair ceases to exist as an entity next month and Paddy Power are going to turn your lights off Baron and you cannot see it coming.

Not my fault you were not invited to the Betfair Funeral taking place next month in Hammersmith - Paddy Power pall bearers are carrying the Betfair coffin through the streets of Hammersmith before a private cremation at the back of Paddy Power HQ in Dublin.

The share price results from the market's expectations that bf (which means the exchange) will grow more rapidly than traditional bookmakers. Much of that expected growth in the medium term is in the USA where I've read sports betting is 80 billion a year.

I think it is inevitable that exchanges will replace traditional bookmakers (which in most places operate illegally). I also think that bf taking too large a slice of the cake has slowed that process by making exchanges less attractive to punters.

I expect people are pitching betting exchanges in Silicon Valley and Bangalore and new competitors are inevitable IMO. The economics are just too attractive.

Good post pxb

I have been stating the above on other threads PXB and have been shot down.

There will be well funded entrepreneurs out there ready to come in and meet the increasing gap in the market as Paddy Power continue to strangle the old Betfair Exchange to death.

People point to the failure of Lads/Purple but that failure was inevitable as there was no advertising combined with zero increase in the range of markets.

People on here except the few Johnny, James Dean etc, know there is no hope for this particular Betting Exchange controlled by Paddy Power given the same mgt actions since 2012 which has really killed the place.

Paddy Power eat all the cake now and feed the BOTs a reducing pile of crumbs until they starve and die.

Paddy Power and Ladbrokes are bookmakers offering zero value to society and their Senior Mgt are only interested in lining their own pockets.

Once the start up costs are covered, there is a risk free profitable business charging 5% commission on a very large cake as proved by Betfair 2001 to 2008.

The future awaits the next innovation in peer to peer betting.

Not sure where the evidence is exchanges are going to take off. The return to the sports governing bodies (ie horseracing) is far too small.

IMO Betfair should rebrand the exchange as "The Exchange" and run it separately from Betfair the sportsbook.

"People on here except the few Johnny, James Dean etc"

Talking for others now?

From what I've actually seen and read on here, most people think you're a bore that lost whatever edge you might have had years ago
and hate the fact that there is still people on here making decent money.

You talk about people leaving in their droves. Out of all the people I know of personally that were winning on here 10 years ago,
I can honestly say everyone bar one or two (I'm talking approx 50) are still on here making good money. That's not to say it isn't harder than it was a few years back, just that the vast majority were able to adapt.

99% of these people play in the main win markets. Whether it be horse racing, tennis, football etc

As far as I can see these win markets are still all very much playable that includes cricket too

I get a lot of the side markets are useless and there might not be every women's under 19's match available to trade on but the big markets are still fine, it's tougher but fine.

The only facts people should look at is your profit and loss each month. Mines tells me that although there is no easy money there is
still more than enough going about.

If it's not good for you then maybe you couldn't adapt. It's foolish however to tar everyone with the same brush as you.

Accept the truth Mr Bean

1. Betfair is no longer an entity from next month.
2. The old Betfair Exchange has been reduced to rubble by the current and future Paddy Power Mgt.
3. Thee vast majority of bets placed on the old Betfair Exchange are between BOTs.
4. Consistent winners are hit with HUGE BETFAIR TAXES between 22.5% and 62.5% mainly based on historic profits.
5. Less than 1% of Betfair customers NOW EARN LESS THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE PER HOUR SPENT ON BETFAIR.

As already stated, hundreds of thousands have adapted through a combination of spending time building new businesses, betting elsewhere and/or spending the hard earned on non gambling activities. There is a big world out there and many opportunities.

The old Betfair Exchange is a sea of empty boxes with liquidity in relentless decline.

Where are the new depositers coming from now? You may not have noticed that the Exchange has been hidden away from potential new customers and Paddy Power increasingly taking football matches etc off the Exchange for Sportsbook betting only.

The winners are reducing by the week Mr Bean as the pile of crumbs left by Paddy Power reduces by the week.

People will survive no problem when the old Betfair Exchange is long gone but the few like yourself Mr Bean are going to find it hard when you get the Paddy Power Email 'Sorry to let you know the Betting Exchange Product is being withdrawn in 10 days. Please withdraw your funds.'

Then it is you that has to adapt - years after the majority adapted.

Typo in 5 above

Less than 1% earn MORE than the minimun wage per hour spent on Betfair

Paddy Power is a bookmaker, run by bookmakers to benefit bookmakers.

Keep that in mind jamesdean and please don't encourage anyone to leave a job and go full time FFS

I've not encouraged anyone to do anything so I'd appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth thanks.

I'll just keep checking my profit and loss at the end of each month and you keep on moaning.

And lets just put a few facts out there, truthful ones at that.


1. Paddy power are not taking over the exchange or Betfair.
2. They have bought a 52% share.
3. Betfair are still going to be in charge of the exchange.
4. Paddy's are taking over the sportsbook side of things.
5. There will be two separate platforms running side by side.

They are the facts.  The exchange is here to stay.

It makes perfect business sense for two big companies to merge as has happened all throughout history in different sectors.

The only thing that one has to go on is their profit and loss. I suspect that is where your bitterness comes from.

You did on other threads Mr Bean and you are not the only one on this thread earning good money each week.

Paddy Power - the UK People's Bookmaker

I've never encouraged anyone to quit their job westender and I'm genuinely glad more on this thread are earning 'good money each week'

That includes you, whether it be on here, the daq or outside of betting.

That is a takeover jamesdean - watch and learn.

Where is the HQ of the new group - London or Dublin?
Where will the majority of staff lose their jobs - London or Dublin?
Will the Betfair Exchange be advertised all over the UK, Ireland or Europe - yes or no?
The same Paddy Power Mgt already in charge of the old Betfair Exchange - yes or no?
Will the new organisation be called BETFAIRpp or PADDY POWER betfair?

Not bitter - just realistic

Where is the HQ of the new group - London or Dublin?

Dublin. My guess is it would be cheaper to operate from Dublin than London for obvious reasons. Makes perfect business sense

Where will the majority of staff lose their jobs - London or Dublin?

London. See answer to question 1.

Will the Betfair Exchange be advertised all over the UK, Ireland or Europe - yes or no?


That is one we will have to wait and see but I'd say yes. How much I don't know. 1 thing you can't knock Paddy's for however
is their advertising skills.

The same Paddy Power Mgt already in charge of the old Betfair Exchange - yes or no?

Yes, as they have been since Bert took over. What's your point? As already said plenty are still making every month before and after Bert came
along. PC was also here well before Bert.

Will the new organisation be called BETFAIRpp or PADDY POWER betfair?


Paddy power Betfair.  Again, what is your point?

You seem to talk a lot but say nothing of importance.

My point is clear - it is a takeover.

Betfair is gawn and has been eaten by Paddy Power.

As part of the 1% elite group of consistent winners jamesdean who earns above the Minimum Wage PER HOUR SPENT ON BETFAIR who will also be clobbered with huge Betfair 52.5% taxes - how do you feel about backing even money shots for a 4/9 return after Betfair Tax?

Most of my bets are in running westie. There's no alternative.

Horses, cricket and the bigger football matches still OK in-running on here - the rest down the pan.

Westie - If you want to blame somebody, there is one group who have spoilt the party for everybody ...... The Big Winners.

They won too much, too quickly , it was never going to last.

The side markets are certainly going that way, agree with that. Most of they side markets were novelties though.
Same with the women's or foreign under 20's garbage etc. There was never going to be consistent liquidity in them hence why they have almost gone
from the exchange. As long as they keep the main markets afloat then that's fair enough imo.
Concentrate on where the most liquidity is likely to be and make the best of that with the exchange, the rest is just waste. It all comes down to cost and effort. The merger is down to cost for both sides as it always is. Nothing sinister in it.

The current Betfair Taxation system is shocking based on historical events and not in-year income.

I agree big winners should be charged more but it really needs to reflect a PAYE taxation system.

Paddy Power is a bookmaker, run by bookmakers to benefit bookmakers.

The important point here is that as bookmakers they likely do not appreciate the exchange concept and it's potential.

There is a large first mover advantage on the internet, where whoever is first can grow the business rapidly, keep unit transaction costs, and hence the price charged, down to a level that makes it very difficult for a viable competitor to arise. That is the opportunity bf has squandered IMO. It remains to be seen if and when a viable competitor arrives, but I wouldn't be buying bf stock.

I expect people are pitching betting exchanges in Silicon Valley and Bangalore and new competitors are inevitable IMO. The economics are just too attractive.

I don't think you need to look far to find someone already with that idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcHmCHSTgN0

Thanks for that Darlo.

Paddy Power Mgt appears to hold the opposite (totally negative) enthusiasm to Betting Exchanges compared to this guy.

There will be a new home for Exchange customers one day.

Have nothing better to do with your life?

PP will do whatever they like with the exchange
and there is nothing you or I can do about it.

Do you think that spending hours repeating the
same thing time after time will make any
difference?

As part of the 1% elite group of consistent winners jamesdean who earns above the Minimum Wage PER HOUR SPENT ON BETFAIR who will also be clobbered with huge Betfair 52.5% taxes - how do you feel about backing even money shots for a 4/9 return after Betfair Tax?

Probably your most pathetic post--If a consistant winner that pays PC only places one bet in a week (1000 at Evens)it might seem
that he's risking £1000 to win £500.But in fact he's only risking £500 because if the bet loses the £1000 will save him £500 in
future PC.
And not every consistant big winner pays PC.

Yes PP can do whatever they like and so can customers hence why people are doing other things with their money. PP need people to deposit but people don't need PP to enjoy life and not many would notice if they did not exist.

You state my post is pathetic then post an idiotic comment stating that people are happy to lose £1k to save £500 premium charges

You then state that not every consistent winner pays PC - only applies to Paddy Power BOT and big players with secret deals with Paddy Power. Another load of dung posted.

What do you withdraw tonight - the equivalent of pulling an ant's foreskin back?

Get a life FFS

Yes it would have been idiotic to say that people are happy to lose £1k to save £500 premium charges.

That probably why I didn't state that.

You then state that not every consistent winner pays PC - only applies to Paddy Power BOT and big players with secret deals with Paddy Power. Another load of dung posted.

You then state that not every consistent winner pays PC - only applies to Paddy Power BOT and big players with secret deals with Paddy Power. Another load of dung posted.

It's perfectly possible for anyone to win regularly and not to pay PC.

PC does not totally depend on the amount you win but also at what rate.

If your bank balance does not increase after PADDY POWER HUGE TAXES then what do you win?

That is my point - very few win these days as PADDY POWER have taken the cake and dish out crumbs

Why this obsession with PP.?

The charges on Betfair are exactly the same as they where
when Breon Corcoran became CEO.
Thet haven't changed for about a decade.

Why this odsession with PP?

There must be a reason why you choose to spend hours every day
slagging off PP.


There has been no increase in charges since Brecon Corcoran
became CEO but you don't seem to let the truth get in the
way of your pointless rants.

I agree with most that westender says about the demise of the betfair betting exchange that in my opinion and experience
was built up by betfair customers who gave their  time for free to help betfair become the billion dollar monster it is today.
However if PP management were to close the exchange then this would open the door to a class action claim with the gambling commision
by customers who have been charged 10's of thousands of pounds PC charges .The claim would be that when the PC charge was implemented
everyone who had to pay was sent a letter to say the PC money would go to the exchange in building it up and attracting new customers.
No way would PP risk closing the exchange as any class action success by affected PC customers would have a massive negative impact
of the betfair share price and thus harm the shareholders.
Closing the Exchange would be too risky as the PC customers are much smarter than PP management .

Only takes secs to post not hours unless you have no hands.

No obsession at all - some of us see the PP agenda clearly.

Three years from now after the PP Takeover - here is my forecast.

No Advertising of the Exchange + Exchange hidden away = very small numbers of new customers = continuous fall of liquidity = less winners = less matched bets and on the cycle goes until only the Paddy Power BOT is all that is left standing = email stating Exchange is being closed within 2 weeks.

This forum will be closed well before then so I will be unable to come on here to be proved right or wrong.

See you in Betfair Heaven on another forum

pmbets has nailed it re Premium Charges - people were lied to as it was supposed to pay for advertising to attract new customers.

What do we get now - hidden Exchange, zero advertising and many markets taken off the Exchange for exclusive betting on the Sportsbook.

The great thing about the Internet is that it is easy to get Exchange customers together to start a new Exchange funded by members for the benefit of members in the unlikely event that well funded entrepreneurs don't get in there first.

Paddy Power Mgt has failed Betting Exchange Customers, does not give a shyte about Betting Exchange Customers, has actually taken action to divert money away from the Exchange so the longer term future for Exchange customers is not on this Exchange under Paddy Power.

Why on earth should Exchange customers be pleased with Paddy Power Mgt given the above?

Totally agree with you westender.Some people on here are delusional.
The main point of this is that if you can make it to pay PC charges ,you are much much better off doing something else.
The world is full of opportunities and you can expect to pay peanuts the make a lot of money unlike
on Betfair where they want the lions share of your money.
I mean many people do not know that the wednesday raid on Pc accounts is not just up to 60% of your winnings
but the person handing over that large chunk of cash to Betfair also has to pay the many expenses he has encountered
in gaining his profit.Internet connection,telephobe call,electricity,travel,cost of information £1.50 a meeting USA.
Betfair often offer 6 or more meetings thats £63 a week just for form.And most importantly valuable time that
you could be doing that 'something else' and been paid per hour a much higher rate than on Betfair.
I first learned about the PC charge 1 year before it was implemented.I didnt know the name of it but when I was told
at the time in a 5 star hotel about it I was shocked.

I was actually told that I as a 'VIP customer' would be given a reduction in my commision by Betfair as I was
a valued customer who brought a lot of liquidity to Betfair.
AS I said previous the PC customers are much smarter than Betfair /PP guys.
When I was told of this ladder system which sounded a bit complicated at the time ,I went  silent for a few moments then
turned round in my chair and said to  .... ....... of Betfair,that it was in fact I who had paid for all the posh meal and drinks
tonight and not in fact corporate Betfair.

Just  a simple matter of knowing

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH!!!

Wake up everyone and smell the coffee.Westender is 100% correct.

anybody that compares gambling to work paid by the hour probably never got to see anything different than work paid by the hour......and should go silent more often

the PC is high, nobody likes to pay it...but the thing that matters more than the tax rate is of course the tax base...50% net of A LOT still is A LOT !

and the individual tax base here is simply not limited (or only limited by individual ability one has to add when reading all this nonsense here)

I'll tell what would really shake things up

A group of exchange super users fund a publicity campaign highlighting the better prices available here....and trying to move the mug money back to this place.

Sports book prices compared to  Exchange Prices....

TAP TAP SUPER BOOM !

That would be fun..

Fixed - measuring your return per year, per month, per day, per hour is the only way of measuring the opportunity cost of your time.

There is no fun in losing and if people are on here to make money - then 99% of people will find it easier to make money elsewhere without any stress.

The fact that the Betfair Taxes are not even based on a sliding scale on in-year profits is farcical.

People could get together Johnny not only to do what you suggest but also start up another Exchange owned by members for the benefit of members.

Westie - again you are wrong ! There are a myriad of reasons why people bet.

For the vast majority it is about fun !...hourly rates ..ROI etc have nothing to do with anything - it ain't a job , it's their leisure time. Some people have plenty of fun losing their money, for many it is a fair trade off - it is what the whole industry is based on.

What I find hard to believe is that, with a little effort,  these "fun punters" could have more fun, (assuming losing less is more fun),  or even win. With the industry set up as it is it isn't that difficult.

The apathy of leisure punters is another major reason why the exchange is on the back burner.

So, we now have two groups you can blame for the end of the exchange party , (and BF management isn't one of them)-

- the  big winners and their greed.

- the leisure punters and their apparent reluctance to search out best prices.

The rot started in 2008 but Paddy Power Mgt took over Betfair on 1 Aug 2012 (CEO and cronies) and are responsible for the demise of the Exchange given the following business decisions:

1. Turned Betfair into a Bookmaker then formally taking over next month.
2. Hid the Betfair Exchange on www.betfair.com.
3. Spent ZERO pounds on the advertising of the Betfair Betting Exchange.
4. Diverted mug money to the poor value Betfair Sportsbook.
5. Cut Betfair Live Video sports streams to the bone compared to the excellent range of live sports coverage on Bet365 etc.
6. Closed the Forum with invitation only membership.
7. Removed Football and Boxing  matches and markets rom the Exchange for exclusive betting on the Betfair Sportsbook.
8  Closed the old Exchange website loved by the customer base and replaced with an Exchange Website which is still very poor and unreliable.
9. Failed to address the Huge Premium Charges which has driven people away.
10. Increased Commissions for foreign customers.

This has manifested itself in the complete erosion of customer goodwill with Exchange liquidity collapsing in most markets clearly seen with a sea of empty boxes and/or silly prices due to markets no longer forming.

My questions to your response are:

1. How come leisure punters came in droves 2001 to 2008?
2. Why not tax winners faitly based on the PAYE system for in-year profits?
3. How can winners and punters be responsible for that lot above which has caused liquidity to collapse on the Exchange?

Don't just list what decisions have been made, ask yourself WHY these decisions were taken ?

Pretty much everything you list addresses the problem of the big winners, the apathy of the fun punters or just good old profit maximisation.

You will call it corporate greed - I call it profit maximisation.

Every leisure punter who finds his way to the exchange is a lost opportunity for BF - you need to understand this.

I understand the Bookmaking Business perspective but this was a Betting Exchange business that has been hijacked by Bookmakers.

Whether people take the corporate greed or profit maximisation perspective - Paddy Power Mgt has destroyed the Exchange.

Not sure why any Exchange customers should be happy with this mob in charge - their stale agenda is clear.

The main objective for the Paddy Power Mgt is to line their own pockets
The 2nd main objective for Paddy Power Mgt is to line their own pockets

That is the way of the world.

That leaves this place a dead duck floating with customers simply waiting for a baby duck to appear on the pond

....and the whole cycle will start again, because...

..there is a fundamental flaw in the pure betting exchange model - It does not maximise profits from the punters the concept attract.

Management, whoever there are, will always be looking for more.

There are many profitable businesses around with excellent goodwill because they deliver a fair product/service for a fair price without screwing customers into the ground.

Look at the Apple domination for a good example - competition arrived and pumped them on price.

The same will happen eventually with Peer to Peer Betting now that Paddy Power and Purple have failed Exchange Peer to Peer customers.

The gambling industry is shrinking because of the take,take and more take approach.

People wake up and the negative publicity of people losing all the time drives potential new customers away.

So Paddy Power instead of addressing why the betting industry market is not increasing, they hijack the Betting Exchange and plunder the customers.

Short term fix as the betting industry market will continue to decline.

The opportunity for a new Peer to Peer website will be much greater in the future when people are 100% sick of the Bookmakers tactics to fleece people of money whether FOBTs, cartoon football matches, poor value prices and any other shyte.

Early start Westender

Could be a 15 hour shift.

Spread on the number of times you will write "Paddy Power" today is 38-42 (6 so far only on this thread)

Number of times you'll say something that you haven't said at least 10 times before 0.5-1.5

Enjoy your day.

I will buy

PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER
PADDY POWER

You even get that wrong !

You should have sold and logged off !

I am taking the urine Johnny

Jan 30, 2016 -- 11:50PM, JML wrote:

Why this obsession with PP.?The charges on Betfair are exactly the same as they wherewhen Breon Corcoran became CEO.Thet haven't changed for about a decade.

Haven't changed apart from
2008 Premium charges introduced
2011 Premium charges increased
2014 Commission increased to 6.5% for most countries

Is the name Betfair the most ridiculous name ever for a a company.
A company that has the no1 reputation for been UNFAIR to it's customers ,especially the  loyal
customers who helped make the company what it is today in market value.
The customers who gave many weeks of their free time and were lied to time and time again
and to put the icing on the cake had to cough up ,up to 60% on their profits every wednesday noontime.
The company has the audacity to call itself Betfair.
I have never met a company that is so UNFAIR.

Betfair where winners are fleeced.
Betfair where sharp minds are despised
Betfair who were turned green with envy when they knew people were actually winning.So they charged them 60% tax.

Paddy Shower even worse mate so the future is bleak on here.

Yet here you are, still banging the same tired old drum, while shareholders are perfectly happy with the way that things are being run.

The fact that his 100,000 posts about PP has achieved absolutely feck all doesn't deter Westender...the sign of a proper nut job

Mark Davies ‏@markxdavies 4m4 minutes ago

Betfair bows out as a single company with a share price of £44.20. Seed investors came in at 10p in 2000.  New era starts tomorrow as PPBF.

'The customers who gave many weeks of their free time'

___________________

Very altruistic ,  i'm almost brought to tears here .

Makes a change from pecker cream to hand