General Betting
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I've been using the free demo spreadsheet from the App Directory for nearly 3 years and placed many thousands of lay bets into the Betfair SP markets without any problems. Until Monday, when Mister Uno in the 3.30 at Ayr failed to get matched. On checking, it returned a BSP of 5.1.
The next step was to email the helpdesk, expecting to be told something along the lines of the horse had been mistakenly removed from the market, with all unmatched bets being cancelled. However that's not what I was told.
I was told that the bet hadn't been matched because the requested price of 1.01 below the 5.1 returned. which would have been fair enough if I'd used the limit on closing (LOC) option rather than market on closing (MOC). I have the spreadsheet automatically set to MOC and I know that it didn't didn't get accidentally reset before submission because the other 6 runners all got matched as normal, despite also being set to my default 1.01 price.
In fairness to Betfair, when I checked my lapsed bets for that day, Mister Uno displayed a requested price of 1.01, which seems a bit odd because any time I check my current bets, there's never a requested price displayed, which suggests that somewhere along the line this bet was converted from MOC to LOC.
Does anyone have any ideas of how this may have come about? I appreciate this question may be better suited to the API forums but there seems to be very little 'traffic' passing through these.
Thanks,
Andy.
The next step was to email the helpdesk, expecting to be told something along the lines of the horse had been mistakenly removed from the market, with all unmatched bets being cancelled. However that's not what I was told.
I was told that the bet hadn't been matched because the requested price of 1.01 below the 5.1 returned. which would have been fair enough if I'd used the limit on closing (LOC) option rather than market on closing (MOC). I have the spreadsheet automatically set to MOC and I know that it didn't didn't get accidentally reset before submission because the other 6 runners all got matched as normal, despite also being set to my default 1.01 price.
In fairness to Betfair, when I checked my lapsed bets for that day, Mister Uno displayed a requested price of 1.01, which seems a bit odd because any time I check my current bets, there's never a requested price displayed, which suggests that somewhere along the line this bet was converted from MOC to LOC.
Does anyone have any ideas of how this may have come about? I appreciate this question may be better suited to the API forums but there seems to be very little 'traffic' passing through these.
Thanks,
Andy.
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I never used the spreadsheet so not too clued up exactly how it works but the words free and demo never inspire too much confidence :) I thought they'd given up maintaining that years ago tbh.
I can only imagine the bet didn't satisfy the minimum liability limit of £10 (i.e. would need a stake of £1000 @ your 1.01), the LOC bets basically go direct into the BSP pool, the MOC's can also get converted to BSP bets if there's a non runner but wouldn't have limits set and there wasn't a NR in that race plus I don't remember anything odd about it.
What stake had you set at 1.01?
I can only imagine the bet didn't satisfy the minimum liability limit of £10 (i.e. would need a stake of £1000 @ your 1.01), the LOC bets basically go direct into the BSP pool, the MOC's can also get converted to BSP bets if there's a non runner but wouldn't have limits set and there wasn't a NR in that race plus I don't remember anything odd about it.
What stake had you set at 1.01?
Thanks for your feedback.
The stake (liability) was set to £14.63. All 7 runners were entered into the BSP market at 1.01 for a liability of £14.63. The fact that 4 of the other runners were matched at longer odds for the same liability suggest there had to be enough backers' money in the market to match this lay in full.
All bets submitted via MOC automatically get converted to BSP. To access them in Current Bets, the SP placed option has to be chosen and the odds required field is always blank. Before i started using this option 3 years ago, I experimented with the requested odds I asked for and it didn't make a scrap of difference what I entered. The bets always got matched in full. To set a limit to odds required, the LOC option has to be chosen on the spreadsheet.
In the big picture, 1 missed lay from 20+ thousand is neither here nor there but I'm just curious as to why this bet was processed differently to all the others made!
The stake (liability) was set to £14.63. All 7 runners were entered into the BSP market at 1.01 for a liability of £14.63. The fact that 4 of the other runners were matched at longer odds for the same liability suggest there had to be enough backers' money in the market to match this lay in full.
All bets submitted via MOC automatically get converted to BSP. To access them in Current Bets, the SP placed option has to be chosen and the odds required field is always blank. Before i started using this option 3 years ago, I experimented with the requested odds I asked for and it didn't make a scrap of difference what I entered. The bets always got matched in full. To set a limit to odds required, the LOC option has to be chosen on the spreadsheet.
In the big picture, 1 missed lay from 20+ thousand is neither here nor there but I'm just curious as to why this bet was processed differently to all the others made!
Bet's submitted via MOC will only get converted to BSP if they satisfy the stake limits, you still haven't said what your stake was it won't have been £14.63 @ 1.01 as none would go into the BSP pot with that low a liability of £0.15
have a look in the lapsed bet for Mister Uno and see what stake was submitted with the 1.01 bet, I'm guessing it was less that £1000 so the liability was less than the required £10. I'm guessing your spreadsheet is submitting bets using the payout
have a look in the lapsed bet for Mister Uno and see what stake was submitted with the 1.01 bet, I'm guessing it was less that £1000 so the liability was less than the required £10. I'm guessing your spreadsheet is submitting bets using the payout
No, the stake of £14.63 was myliability, i.e. had the lay been matched and Mister Uno won, I'd have lost £14.63, regardless of its BSP. All the other runners in the race were matched and the race was won by Thorntoun Gate, which lost me £14.63. Any attempt to lay any runner for less than the BSP minumum of £10 via the spreadsheet is rejected and cannot be submitted.
I've been running this particular project since March 29th. In that time I've offered lay BSP prices for every runner in 447 races, totalling 4,875 runners, excluding non-runners. Only one of these runners has failed to get matched, Mister Uno on Monday. Without exception they were all fed into the BSP market using MOC at a 'requested price' of 1.01.
But the 'requested price' of 1.01 is a red herring as the Betfair site has accepted 99.98% of these bets as not having any price limitations. The question remains why did this particular lay flip from being an MOC when it left my computer to an LOC at the point the BSP was settled?
Cheers.
I've been running this particular project since March 29th. In that time I've offered lay BSP prices for every runner in 447 races, totalling 4,875 runners, excluding non-runners. Only one of these runners has failed to get matched, Mister Uno on Monday. Without exception they were all fed into the BSP market using MOC at a 'requested price' of 1.01.
But the 'requested price' of 1.01 is a red herring as the Betfair site has accepted 99.98% of these bets as not having any price limitations. The question remains why did this particular lay flip from being an MOC when it left my computer to an LOC at the point the BSP was settled?
Cheers.
You still haven't said what the stake is showing on your lapsed bet, for a BSP liability of £14.63 your 1.01 bets would need to be submitted with a stake of £1463 which would then convert to a liability of £14.63 (£1463 x 0.01) in the BSP reconciliation process.
LOC and MOC are completely different things and the API requests you submit have different values with regards to the betPersistenceType, bspLiability and betCategoryType so I'm guessing somethings at fault with your sheet or the coding
Might be too late for you now as the details aren't stored for too long but you could just run a GetBet API request and that'll show if a LOC bet was submitted. I've no idea how you sheet works but the bet timings will also show if they were all submitted in one request rather than as individual bets as I'm assuming you're just market making for the overrounds. If you can't submit the GetBet request I'm sure Betfair will send you what details you submitted if you request them the API team is usually quite quick
LOC and MOC are completely different things and the API requests you submit have different values with regards to the betPersistenceType, bspLiability and betCategoryType so I'm guessing somethings at fault with your sheet or the coding
Might be too late for you now as the details aren't stored for too long but you could just run a GetBet API request and that'll show if a LOC bet was submitted. I've no idea how you sheet works but the bet timings will also show if they were all submitted in one request rather than as individual bets as I'm assuming you're just market making for the overrounds. If you can't submit the GetBet request I'm sure Betfair will send you what details you submitted if you request them the API team is usually quite quick
I think I've finally found an explanation that matches the evidence.
The spreadsheet I've been using for the last 3 years is the free demo from the developers' forum. Once I figured out what I wanted to use it for I hid the LOC check box column. However the check boxes themselves still appear when a market is called and I must have accidentally ticked the LOC check box for Mister Uno. I've just run an experiment and if both MOC and LOC check boxes are ticked, the bet is entered into the Betfair market with the requested price activated, 1.01 in this case.
Thanks for all your help and patience.
The spreadsheet I've been using for the last 3 years is the free demo from the developers' forum. Once I figured out what I wanted to use it for I hid the LOC check box column. However the check boxes themselves still appear when a market is called and I must have accidentally ticked the LOC check box for Mister Uno. I've just run an experiment and if both MOC and LOC check boxes are ticked, the bet is entered into the Betfair market with the requested price activated, 1.01 in this case.
Thanks for all your help and patience.
It could be that there were not enough back bets to cover all
lay bets for this particular selection at the off - it is
possibe, but rare. And, as you hid your bets at 1.01 you would
probably be last in the queue to get matched.
lay bets for this particular selection at the off - it is
possibe, but rare. And, as you hid your bets at 1.01 you would
probably be last in the queue to get matched.
Hi Al,
It wasn't the bet that was hidden, it was the column on the spreadsheet that holds the LOC check boxes. However hiding the column doesn't actually hide the check boxes and I've been using the application so long I no longer even notice them. As the sheet does all the calcs automatically, I only need to hit the submit button. On this occassion a stray mouse click almost certainly changed the bet from MOC to LOC. Nothing more than user error I'm happy to report.
Thanks.
It wasn't the bet that was hidden, it was the column on the spreadsheet that holds the LOC check boxes. However hiding the column doesn't actually hide the check boxes and I've been using the application so long I no longer even notice them. As the sheet does all the calcs automatically, I only need to hit the submit button. On this occassion a stray mouse click almost certainly changed the bet from MOC to LOC. Nothing more than user error I'm happy to report.
Thanks.
Red/Dog: Have you noticed that the rounding is not quite fair for BSP lays?
eg if your liabilty is £14.63 and BSP is 501, then £0.02 will be matched. If you win, you win £0.02. If you lose, you lose £14.63, not £10.
Every BSP lay loses, on average, half a penny per runner to rounding.
If you are laying the field for small stakes, then this could easily negate any slight average overround. You can still make a profit, but it will be due to outsiders winning more races than expected, not the overround.
eg if your liabilty is £14.63 and BSP is 501, then £0.02 will be matched. If you win, you win £0.02. If you lose, you lose £14.63, not £10.
Every BSP lay loses, on average, half a penny per runner to rounding.
If you are laying the field for small stakes, then this could easily negate any slight average overround. You can still make a profit, but it will be due to outsiders winning more races than expected, not the overround.
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