How long for Betting Shops?

What was the final nail? Rise in MGD, increased SIS/Turf charge, increased levy, big firms giving away ridiculous unmatchable loss leading offers.... I run an independent shop and often wonder what would tip me over the edge and make me walk away. Trouble is, I'm too young to retire!

Are you selling up, or is the shop closing down? We are a dying breed! There's not one left around here apart from us.

Well ... it happened over many months, possibly years - it was the gradual realisation that it was becoming borderline - then unviable - I suppose I was  hoping that something may have happened to regenerate interest, but that was wishful thinking. As my regular customers grew old and passed on, they were not replaced by the younger generation and subsequently t/o has reduced by over 50%

I am not complaining in any way - as I see it as natural progress (and I had some good middle years) - but I fear Betting Shops are quickly going to be overrun by the on-line uptake, particularly in the FOBT gaming

Good Luck with yours

Exchange or fixed odds terminals into shops, obviously Bads have their own exchange and could implement this.

Touch screen terminals are the way forward for any shop. Putting cash or a card into a machine is far easier and offers more privacy.

Betting shops will just evolve to give the technology people want to use.

As an approximately thirteen year old I specifically remember the old TV show "Tomorrow's World" telling us how technology was taking over the world and how future generations wouldn't have to work so hard as computers were replacing humans.  Great I thought.  How wrong could one be as longer working hours became the norm not less.

Fashions come and go and things may go retro again.  It wasn't that long ago that people were ripping out period features and solid wood doors, replacing them with mdf.  The only certain thing about the future is that it's uncertain.

On a betting perspective I cant understand punters using betting shops.
Why dont they use a mobile or pc and get better odds on betfair.
Is it stupidity or they wont break habits of a lifetime?

Because the young know that Betfair charge up to 60% winners tax.So you get worse odds in  fact as betfair
keeps up to 60% of your profits with no risk to themselves.

pmbets: something tells me you don't like Betfair. Which is odd considering how much you post on here.

I must be the only bookie who thinks FOBTs are a bad thing?

I firmly believe that the demise or limitation of them will bring money back over the counter, where it used to be. It might take a few months but would happen.

Another thing which might help, not hinder bookies (and it flies in the face of bigger bookie thinking), would be a reduction in the ridiculous number of 'Betting opportunities'. On an average Sunday for example, there are 3 UK horse meetings, 2 Irish ones, 6 dog meetings, a reasonable footy programme, a golf last round, and other sport..... At the behest of the big firms and because they have EPOS, there will be coverage of S.African, French and possibly German horse racing too! Oh, plus the Cartoons and number games. The amount of superfluous stuff on Grand National day is another example.

The Marketing people who run the bigger bookies know nothing and understand less. People go into betting shops, like they have since 1961, and have a bet. When their money's gone it's gone, if they win, they come back tomorrow. Many are coming in looking at all the crap on the screens, looking at walls which resemble an art exhibition, and walking out again. They're 'over-faced'
It was working fine, but some of these theorists thought things could be improved.
SIS came along and started helping in the squeeze on small bookies (vested interest there, I think), The completely unnecessary Gambling Commission was invented to take another load of money from us, and then.....

and this is where I differ from most......... we lost about 50% of our business to FOBT's
On average, smaller bookies keep 55-60% of the profit on them (the bigger firms much more),because of rentals, tax and duty and this is about to get worse.
Scrap the fecking things, let the money return to proper betting.

We've pretty much lost all the customers we're going to lose to the internet, cash still is the one place where we have an advantage, the loss of FOBT's and their magnetic draw wouldn't harm us at all imo.

In fact it might just save us.

I disagree about the FOBTs, I think they are a godsend from the bookies pov.  Yes they take money from other sports but most of it is new money.  Plus they are highly addictive and simple to understand and operate.  They also cater for the influx of Eastern Europeans.

I agree about over facing, less is more.  Familiarity and understanding is comforting.  All this excess stuff (save perhaps the numbers betting) is really aimed at addicts.  If they are addicts they are going to hand over the cash at some point anyway.

Some is new money, yes. Most - I would suggest, is from punters who are playing the machines rather than betting over the counter.
They also, and I can very much testify to this, don't always make a profit and if played 'big' can't be controlled in the way bets can.

As for the numbers, the Irish lottery is pretty much a waste of time, I'd say 95% of lottery punters don't bet on anything else and it makes nothing.

We've pretty much lost all the customers we're going to lose to the internet, cash still is the one place where we have an advantage, the loss of FOBT's and their magnetic draw wouldn't harm us at all imo.

I disagree. The next generation of punter has been brought up on the internet, iphones, internet banks, cash free society etc. You see them using their debit card to buy stuff for a quid in Tesco. They dont use cash. Why will they go into a betting shop when they can bet on their phone? What does the betting shop bring to the table?

frog , if there is a busy bookmakers for horse racing , the atmosphere is much better in the shop than sitting at home

The machines, without doubt, change the atmosphere in as shop. 10 years ago, most people would be betting on the horses and dogs, having a laugh and debating upcoming races/close finishes etc. We used to get a good crowd in every Saturday of between 10-15 and the shop was buzzing. Now, we have maybe 4 or 5 in, with others popping in and out to play machines. To me, it's a vicious circle, if you're the only one sitting in a betting shop backing horses, you may as well be at home on your own with your laptop.

Studyform, I feel your pain with the machines, they can drive you mad when they're paying out to all and sundry. They may seem like a licence to print money to the outsider, but they can go on horrendous paying-out sprees! Having said that, we would probably struggle to survive if the government do clamp down any more on them. Surely by raising the MGD is the government saying we can see how lucrative the machines are and we want a bigger piece of the pie, how is this going to help the problem gambling 'epidemic' which is apparently sweeping the nation according to the media and parliament.

A quick question:

If someone was to have a new on-line platform that involved gambling and needed an independent shop to be on board with (licensing plus other aspects (bet placement, for example), where does one find a list of independent shops?

Cheers.

Bookies have got a few years left, hopefully, value wise you can't beat a singles/trixie combo on best odds guaranteed races, sure beats any sportsbook offering, for punters of my generation I'd expect that turnover would increase if there were more competitive races ie 5/1 the field, as for the younger punters...seems that form study is too much like hard work

shape


lunatic assylum

a problem that afflicts all businesses big enough to have marketing departments - and which takes a number of years to come to fruition - is that the underlying motivation of anyone in marketing is to keep on marketing.  The continuance of the job is more important than the outcomes of the job itself.  The continuance of the job is of course tied to the success of the business, but only 'tied' to it. It is not the essence of that success. it is a support service.  It knows this, and like any entity, it's first duty is to itself, to ensuring it's continuance.   So carries on inventing new retail opportunites for us the customer - which we're all fairly sick of - like there is no tomorrow, because there is no tomorrow for them if they don't.

and senior managers are conditioned (by their forebears and current environment) to be receptive to all marketing proposals that can promise a sales uplift.  That specific sales uplift will indeed occur, everyone gives themselves a pat on the back, bonuses all round etc, marketing works, it's proven again : they react as if that marketing success has occurred in a vacuum, but it hasn't, it has in fact degraded the overall customer experience, because all the people who didn't buy into 'the thing', whatever it was,  experienced a little bit of irritation at being offered this thing, it took a few seconds of their time, they judged it to be rubbish/not for them, they moved on.   Repeat one thousand times over the corse of a few years and you end of with a lot of very pi$$ed off (former) customers. Us.

frog, I think most of those gamblers who are likely to use t'internet already do. Hence my assertion.
As for what shops bring to the table (a table they built btw); community, personal service, use of cash, helpfulness.... real people
at least if they're any good.

desperatemunter:
Very well put. I couldn't agree more. You've summed up a large reason for many of society's problems.

The biggest irritation is when punters come in your shop, read the form, watch the £25K a year braosdcasts, get warm, you make them a coffee - THEN THE *******d's BET ON THEIR PHONES

ty STUDYFORM - a sense of validation is a rare and wonderful treat.

study


what are you turning over a week OTC have you got SIS & Turf ? if you don't mind me asking.

How ya doin Capt ??

Had an enjoyable gold cup day as ever sat there in the corner of the boozer( facing a police nick) and 5 mins from a b fred.
Took about £300 on the 1st race and over 2k on the last race no mither won about a grand.
The only problem now is finding 2 part slips !!!!
Did the national and made a small profit, back in for the  Friday of royal ascot and to think I used to stand there 7 days a week making money for every other fkr but myself.

When the exchanges came along I assumed naively that there wouldn't be any bookies on the high streets in five years' time. They got lucky with the machines being allowed in. That's all that's keeping them going. Remove them, and betting is a purely internet/mobile activity.

Endless free cups of tea and coffee, poured and served by overworked and underpaid betting shop staff - that's what you don't get from betting on your PC or phone from home.

Obviously, the location of shops largely determines level of trade and profit.

The FOBTs are clearly here to stay. Aren't the leading bookies now pushing for an increase of the minimum four machines to six per shop? These adrenalin fuelled 'coke machines' will keep the shops going forever, especially those shops adjacent to pubs, which only further fuels the 'rush' experienced by these addicts.

Knowing the can of grasping idiots who work in marketing depts. for the big bookies, we can only presume they are, as we speak, busily negotiating with breweries to sell alcohol in their shops, too! Or is there possibly scope for pubs to stay in business by offering betting terminals in their boozers?!

That said, there are still a lot of over-40s/50s who just cannot get their heads around online gambling (fear of pressing the wrong button) and have no intention of trying to grasp it, so the shop and ready cash will remain their only way of betting.

Workers nears shops like to pop in during their breaks to have their small accas, trebles and long shot punts on the football, especially at weekends, so they need shop facilities too.

maine road

followed your posts with amusement over the years - maybe I can help re the 2part slips - leave a oontact and I'll get in touch

Any printing shop will rattle off betting slips in minutes. I used to pay about 15 quid for a thousand, with my logo,phone number, etc. on them, or 12 quid without.

Compare our bookies to the big Vegas sports books and that seems the future to me. Fewer shops overall but nicer and a location to watch sport with a beer and with company who are sometimes your friends and sometimes your enemies.

The thing the phone can't provide (actually as Banksy showed, it does, but we'll ignore that) is company.
Stick 100 people in a room half cheering for one side and half the other and you've got something the net can't replicate.

I have no idea how this transition occurs but I think that's the end point.

Capt_F
Sorry for delay, I only just saw your post.

It isn't what it used to be in the old days. I do have SIS (£20K+ per year, robbing basts) I don't have turf. I pipe commentary through the speakers, which works well.
Slips are about 150 a day average. Turnover is incredibly variable.

In my old shop, around 15 years ago, we did more than twice the slips, and margins were higher, overheads were much lower.
It is REALLY difficult now.

I still maintain the machines are taking money away from OTC. Given the amount of profit that you get to keep on the machines, I still also maintain that the industry wouldn't suffer if they were banned.

A lone voice, I know.

ok study cheerss

maine
super soccer do a cash investment slip bout £50 for ten thousand
well done on the national

Fashions and tastes are uncertain but one thing I'm confident about is that cash will never go out of fashion.  It's the government and big business that want to reduce cash circulation, not the ordinary person.  Imagine a casino or a poker club not using chips, instead using digital monitors and push buttons.  What a horrible world.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but those things already existed last time I was in Vegas

Pass me the sick bag

Betting shops are essentially social clubs.

Older and some younger men who otherwise wd have nowhere to go 'pay' a small charge in the form of taking severely unders bets to shops' owners. They are happy to do so. Given the option of following in a winner's bets and being exiled from the shop or keeping on w/ their own small-stake terrible value multiples, they'll go on w/ the latter; I know because I've scouted in shops for placers for bets that are marginal or can't necessarily be arbed off by the multiples.

Shops' owners are providing heat, hot drinks and a stream of entertainment at very cheap cost to these men. They just about get by doing so. It's a misconception to see betting as central to what goes on in a shop.

I don't see these men going anywhere but I don't think independents are ever going to make much of a living.

good post askari. A friend of mine said most betting shop punters just want cheap thrill bets eg. placepot. They don't want to win ( with clever singles )  It would frighten them.

mobile technology or govt interference in something they obviously dont understand

either way the end is nigh

I seriously think the big companies welcome this - as long as they can sustain/improve overall market share - they can see how tight running a shop premises is - major savings/profit moving their customer base on-line

When in Australia, it was a pleasure having a pint in a pub and making a bet, watching the races and sports.

Years ago, book store chains installed coffee shops and the next thing people were hanging out, drinking coffee, looking at books.

The bookmakers have never, ever, done anything to improve the atmosphere of the shops.  Even in the heart of London, the shops look the same as Cricklewood.  Why is some exec with the money going to go into the shops when he can get his Pret A Manger elsewhere and sit outside, the option to go into a shop to be bombarded by pixelated horse races?

No innovation means no growth.

Fancy, shiny FOBT's don't count.

My thoughts exactly Shapeshifter.  I bet, regularly with bookmakers and in a way that doesn't rely on technical advantage.  It's been about 4 years since I went in to a betting shop.  Can't imagine spending more than about 10 minutes in one.

what could have envigorated Betting Shops was the opportunity Laddies had when they bought purple

Fast pictures - multi terminal shops, linking straight into the purple exchange - IR could have taken off to the next level

now that would have frightened any exchange outfit

Alas - they seem to just let it plod along in the shadows!

Anatomy of a UK betting

- Slap up the plaster making sure there are flat walls to staple up newspaper
- Make sure there is placement for four FOBT's.  No more.  No less.
- Make sure that the walls and windows are clear to allow sound to reflect and an irritating volume.  EQ accordingly to make it brittle.
- Rather than give punters info and interviews on the televisions, bombard them with pointless virtual racing at full volume.
- When you do give information, make sure it is only what the traders want you to present to the public. 
- Make sure you don't mention jockey changes until right before the off.
- Give general stats about draw analysis to steer punters subliminally away from the fave.
- Encourage correct score and first goal scorer bets.

Then they wonder why serious money never hangs in the shops.

I didn't even know there were still betting shops! I haven't been in one for years! I thought they had all been converted into amusement arcades!

over 300 gone since this was posted - im off next month - point of consumption tax/levy bound to mean more - the high street could be bare!!

best of luck kat
hope something works out for you

No sympathy from me. Wont take a decent bet and happy to take the mug money off the FOBT's. Got a cheek to cll themselves "book"makers imo