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ShirleyKnot
24 Jan 14 15:56
Joined:
Date Joined: 03 Jun 10
| Topic/replies: 1,752 | Blogger: ShirleyKnot's blog
This was the one about the e-mail sent notifying it takes place at the end of this month, 7% in some places & 6.5% in the rest of the world.
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Report mesmerised January 24, 2014 3:21 PM GMT
Sweden

At Betfair you always get the best possible products and services. To ensure you continue to get a premium experience, we are increasing the base commission rate on Betfair Exchange markets in your country to 6.5% from January 30th.

You can of course continue to earn significant discounts of up to 60% on this commission rate through the Betfair points system. A full explanation of how your commission is calculated can be found at Betfair Learning.

This rate increase does not apply to any promotional markets with a fixed commission rate.

Thank you for your continued business and good luck with your future betting at Betfair.

Yours sincerely,

Betfair Customer Service
Report Swedebank January 24, 2014 3:33 PM GMT
A step towards PC removal? Soon the Purple guys will have an open goal.
Report Soulwing January 24, 2014 3:45 PM GMT
Am affected by this aswell. Quite disgusted to be honest. Everyone else is improving their service offer. Betfair is going backwards. Betfair is getting less and less of my business.
Report Mr.Anderson January 24, 2014 4:01 PM GMT
AngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngryAngry
Report Mr.Anderson January 24, 2014 4:02 PM GMT
Angry
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 4:03 PM GMT
UK excluded i guess
Report bb66 January 24, 2014 4:23 PM GMT
6.5% here as well, after downgrading the discounts on commission severly for my country 6 months ago. Must be time to switch to purple nowSad, as liquidity has also deteriorated significantly since excluding main European countries. Who will still remain betting here???Confused
Report Mr.Anderson January 24, 2014 5:19 PM GMT
What kind of company charges all (or nearly all) overseas customers 30% more when it's far from 30% more expensive to serve those customers? Can you say more clearly that you don't want any overseas customers? If I were a losing customer I would close my account in a heartbeat out of disgust. My mood right now is such that I easily could get myself banned from the forum, so I will say no moreAngry
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 5:30 PM GMT
Why only 6,5% commission for countrys outside UK?

8% for all foreign countrys, 4% for UK would be very fair imo.

Betfair is a very sympathetic company
Report fixed January 24, 2014 5:33 PM GMT
however you all forget they are "ensuring we get a premium experience"
Report bingo bongo January 24, 2014 5:33 PM GMT
If a country is in the EU then I'm suprised they are able to charge differently, unless there are higher costs invloved through taxes or licences
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 5:54 PM GMT
fixed
however you all forget they are "ensuring we get a premium experience"

Oh i really forget.
But i think this special "premium experience" feeling makes it worth paying the extra 1,5% commission
Report hazel January 24, 2014 6:01 PM GMT
I am a little confused now, i thought the premium experience was 20/40/50/60%. 

Are you saying its now 6.5%?
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 6:07 PM GMT
I´m glad you are only a little confused hazel.
I´m very confused

To much premium experience here
Report hazel January 24, 2014 6:18 PM GMT
am i correct in thinking that if you are spanish and bet on a English premier league football match  it costs 6.5%, but your counter-party  who lives in UK pays only 5%.

yet if you are English and bet on a spanish premier league match it costs 5% , whilst your foriegn counter-party from who knows where might pay 7%?
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 6:24 PM GMT
You are correct.

6 month ago they started to give every foreign country different commission rates from 5,5% up to 7,5%  - also with different (higher) discount rates.
Report ridiculously January 24, 2014 6:26 PM GMT
i mean lower discount rates-sorry, only 50% maximum discout instead of 60% for example
Report hazel January 24, 2014 6:28 PM GMT
thanks ridiculously -

i hope my commission generated takes this into account
Report Total Bosman January 24, 2014 7:43 PM GMT
I for one am delighted about this, had enough of them foreigners sitting in bongo bongo land enjoying our British Premium Experience.  Bleed'em dry I say.
Report hazel January 24, 2014 7:52 PM GMT
Mischief
Report TheInvestor2 January 24, 2014 11:05 PM GMT

hazel 24 Jan 14 18:28 Joined: 15 Jun 01 | Topic/replies: 519 | Blogger: hazel's blog
thanks ridiculously -

i hope my commission generated takes this into account


I would guess implied comm remains at 3%?
Report hazel January 24, 2014 11:11 PM GMT
Investor2 with a 30% increase in the MBR (from 5 to 6.5) I would expect the implied commission to increase at the same rate.  i.e from 3% to 3.9%
Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 12:16 AM GMT

Jan 24, 2014 -- 8:43PM, Total Bosman wrote:


I for one am delighted about this, had enough of them foreigners sitting in bongo bongo land enjoying our British Premium Experience.

Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 12:17 AM GMT
It will have a knock on effect. Who will you bet against?
Report Petrus Romanus January 25, 2014 2:01 AM GMT
What rate do people have to pay in the UK?
Report fixed January 25, 2014 2:53 AM GMT
they don't have to pay commission at all but generate tons of implied commission because the England Football Team never wins !!!
Report bingo bongo January 25, 2014 2:59 AM GMT
Between 2 and 5% (before premium charge).

The lack of forward thinking at Betfair is quite incredible. Look at a company like Amazon. Their profits are almost zero because they know its about the long term and capturing market share - which is what bf should be looking to do, by making their product more attractive. Instead bf do the opposite.
Report Petrus Romanus January 25, 2014 3:28 AM GMT
They are retarded...I got sent word that commission in my country is going up to 6.5 %...I live in Canada but I fund my account from a UK bank account in Pounds Sterling...WTF?
Report ann witt January 25, 2014 3:40 AM GMT
Unless these increases relate to some kind of government taxation in the countries affected, this looks like another backward move by one of the most depressing companies on earth. The increases are fairly irrelevant to traders / (most) pc payers but will sicken and see off another glut of losing gamblers.
Report fixed January 25, 2014 4:35 AM GMT
as you barely know even 0,1% of the companies on earth you should not make a statement like this

the betting exchange itself is still a thing of beauty not seen in 100% of all other bookies on earth


however would be nice to see them not make as hard an effort to destroy it eventually
Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 7:50 AM GMT
Read on another forum plans are in place to put commission to 6.5% or 7% across the board later in the year.

How depressing.
Report ann witt January 25, 2014 8:31 AM GMT
as you barely know even 0,1% of the companies on earth you should not make a statement like this

Was from a personal viewpoint (and a love of exchange betting) fixed so the statement stands true to me even if I could only name 3 companies. I'm sure from a moralistic viewpoint they'll be a long way down the queue for hell.

the betting exchange itself is still a thing of beauty not seen in 100% of all other bookies on earth

Agree but the stock market interface has had its day.

however would be nice to see them not make as hard an effort to destroy it eventually

Totally agree.
Report Mr.Anderson January 25, 2014 9:49 AM GMT

Jan 25, 2014 -- 4:40AM, ann witt wrote:


Unless these increases relate to some kind of government taxation in the countries affected, this looks like another backward move by one of the most depressing companies on earth. The increases are fairly irrelevant to traders / (most) pc payers but will sicken and see off another glut of losing gamblers.


It's the UK that is introducing a new tax later this year (December I think), not all these other countries! If anything it's the commission for UK customers that should go up!

Oh, and I'm even angrier today. Think I will close my account after the world cup.

Report frog2 January 25, 2014 11:26 AM GMT
It all started when they put it up for Australian racing after the NSW racing put on a turnover tax. It was the only way to make any kind of profit with a turnover tax inplace.

The fact that revenue increased as a result for these many runner events that have high overrounds because people continue to bet led to these tests in other countries.

Its a dangerous game to play. Short term revenues could increase enough for people to meet their targets. But surely long term its going to hurt not just Betfair but the whole exchange industry.

Rewind back just over a decade and think why Andrew Black thought Betfair would work. It was to massively reduce to cost to punters that bookies were charging.

Using this policy they built a $1bn company and could have wiped out the bookmakers in UK if they had not taken their foot off the jugular.

Now the costs to punters are going up and up.

Let actually look at the cost of betting here. example

prices (11.19am) ignoring marathon from odds portal

best with bookies

Bournmouth 11.92
Draw 6.02
Liverpool 1.33

top uk recreational online bookie

Bournmouth 11.0
Draw 6.0
Liverpool 1.30


On Betfair with zero commission

Bournmouth 12.0
Draw 6.2
Liverpool 1.31

On Betfair with 6.5% commission

Bournmouth 11.285
Draw 5.86
Liverpool 1.28985

I mean come on. Get a grip. You cannot expect people to use the exchange if the odds are worse on BF than bookies in general.
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 11:36 AM GMT
If you look at 3 selection events like 1X2 it is so worrying.

The offer prices could be:
Team A 1.99
Draw   4.0
Team B 4.0

It is rare that the book would be this tight for the offers on BF. But at 6.5% it becomes

Team A 1.92565
Draw   3.805
Team B 3.805

The book is at best 1.045% for these recreational players. There are at least 4 well known recreational and pro books that offer less than 1.045% as standard in most 1X2 matches.

If Betfair were to offer 2% to everyone then the book would be 1.015% and this would regularly be top price.

Do the pricing team understand betting?
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 11:46 AM GMT
First race at lingfield this afternoon. Prices taken at 11.42

Betfair with 6.5% commission

3.29075
4.927
5.114
9.8825
8.667
16.4275
16.895
28.115

Top bookie prices

3.25
5
5.5
9
9.5
15
21
29

Betfair 2% commission for everyone

3.401
5.116
5.312
10.31
9.036
17.17
17.66
29.42
Report rcing January 25, 2014 11:55 AM GMT
people use betfair instead of a bookmaker not so much for the prices , but for the fact that you can

lay an outcome
trade a position
bet in running on horse racing and other sports
and probably other reasons
Report Darlo Bantam January 25, 2014 11:57 AM GMT
You can trade a position and play in running with other bookies. It's just technically more difficult to calculate.
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 12:01 PM GMT
I agree with all that rcing. But with punters taking a holding a position there could be no trading. It all starts with punters. You have to offer them a reason to come here.
Report vgeo78 January 25, 2014 12:21 PM GMT
uk after 31/01/2014/ will remain at 5% or 6.5%??? i think many people will turn purple as bf seems not to respect them . i was very disappointed  so far from the luck of offers in my country and reduce my stakes to half to show them (after some e-mails) but they did not care. and now that..ok bf continue to see your customers as money...
Report ridiculously January 25, 2014 1:02 PM GMT
As it looks at the moment, i think betfair is finished for me.

I'm not very interested to pay betfair every month a commission in the amount of about 5,000 euros
and at the end of the month, i havn´t earned anything.

Great work betfair!
Report siwaadupa January 25, 2014 4:58 PM GMT
Can you see thread" Ballabrigs has been banned"? Moderated?
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 5:07 PM GMT
Not a vaild thread.
Report hazel January 25, 2014 5:34 PM GMT
i read betfair on twitter yesterday, when asked about how this might affect liquidity, they tweeted that do not expect the increases to affect liquidity.

i guess that with all the changes in the last year that betfair has become a uk/ireland orientated company.

I recall when uk betting tax was something like 8% (10% paid), i guess we are not far off that now.  As a pc payer it makes little to no difference to me.  But for gamblers in general Betfair has become a little uncompetitive, especially on football and favourites in markets like saturday tv horse racing.
Report fixed January 25, 2014 6:01 PM GMT
once they do something that affects liquidity it will be to late...tipping point


lets hope we never get there
Report vgeo78 January 25, 2014 6:22 PM GMT
arbers will soon or later say goodbuy .and then i want to see who is gonna give prices and liquidity. there other companies that respect the players(exchange). uk will remain at 5% if anyone knows?????
Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 7:09 PM GMT
Yes it is still 5% as far as I know but no doubt that will be put up before long.

They don't need arbers as they have bots sweeping the entire site picking off any arbs in a second or 2. Some certain areas will die a death like outright betting.
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 8:18 PM GMT
hazel
25 Jan 14 17:34
Joined:
15 Jun 01
| Topic/replies: 521 | Blogger: hazel's blog
i read betfair on twitter yesterday, when asked about how this might affect liquidity, they tweeted that do not expect the increases to affect liquidity.

i guess that with all the changes in the last year that betfair has become a uk/ireland orientated company.


the elephant in the room is the 15% GPT on UK business that is due to start at the end of the year.

Why put most of your eggs in the UK basket when the tax on gross profits is about to start?
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 8:27 PM GMT
Its all very disappointing. How many disruptive actions/business have ended up just going back to the status quo. You can think of it in a very small way like the situation in Egypt or Ukraine. Its starts with a revolution. The new leaders talk the talk and genuinely mean well. But all too soon the organisation/party/company gets infiltrated by people from the old guard and things return to normal. Its the people/customers that suffer.

Betfair was the punters great hope back in June 2000. For half a decade we all loved it. Why could the founders not settle for a couple of hundred million a year in revenue and build the business up slowly but surely? The net affect of all this is to hand power back to bookmakers. It will take a generation before the exchange experiment can be restarted now. The trust is being disolved.
Report vgeo78 January 25, 2014 8:31 PM GMT
i mean after 30/1/2014 it will remain 5%(even now i have the 5% base)?and what and how if i register an account in uk?? and i think bf(and any exchange) needs arbers. other bookies don't like them
Report frog2 January 25, 2014 8:41 PM GMT
I am afraid it is because the general punter is just not price sensitive enough care and a new generation of post founder internet executive is just looking to make a quick buck for themselves. These guys are not entrepreneurial but they still want their share of the pot.

If you look at all the revolutionary internet firms a similar pattern is developing. After the initial reduction in charges things slowly return to how they were.
Report bb66 January 25, 2014 9:42 PM GMT
liquidity is way lower already than it was prior to about 15 months ago, arbing now doesn't pay the time necessary, was fun while it lasted, but it's dead now and impossible with higher commission rates.

Can't see why people wouldn't go to purple, let's hope for increasing liquidity there, see on the other sideWink
Report vgeo78 January 25, 2014 9:57 PM GMT
i really cannot understand how bf is thinking. is like you sell something and you want to gain more and you think if i increase the price i will gain 30% more. but you cannot think there are cheaper  choices that offering the same thing as you and if you make your customers leave  and make the other company strong then is difficult to come back even with the same old prices. i loved bf but 2 years now is showing that don't respect good customers. i already have a purple account that i do not use so much but maybe its time to start using it
Report InsiderTrader January 25, 2014 10:36 PM GMT
If you give someone two to four years to make their mark then obviously harvesting a good business is the way to go.
Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 10:40 PM GMT
Bet daq and matchbook should be adequate replacements for most and don't forget the likes of Pinnacle and the Asian Books. You may have to adjust/ change your betting style and tactics but it will certainly be better than paying a daft 6.5-7% commission and extra through the cross matching bot.
Report YOMOMMA January 25, 2014 10:45 PM GMT
...Matchbook's wicked for arbing it's only 1% commission.
Report pmbets January 26, 2014 2:28 AM GMT
october 2013   1.2% better off with Purple than here
nov     2013   2%    ditto
dec     2014   2.3%  ditto
Jan     2014   2.8%  ditto
(See the trend,The future is bright the future is purple)
Uk +Us Horses net difference after all deductions taken comm + massive PC charge Betfair
                                                        Comm only  Purple

It's finally happened folks.Insider info I am making more on purple than here with the same horses same race.

Keep putting up the commission Betfair as it puts more in my pocket through increased liquidity on the purple.
Report vgeo78 January 26, 2014 1:44 PM GMT
Matchbook's commision is a little tricky . you pay 1% for all. ex.  if you play 1.01x1000e and win you get back 999.9.you win and the same time u dont even get your money back. if bet 100@2 the you pay 2e commision fi you win and 1 if you lose. and if you lay after 100@1.5 you pay 2 commision for 2 separated bets. very tricky as you pay commision even if you lose and not on the net winnings. purple more clear and better.bf??????????wake up and start to respect before all gone
Report YOMOMMA January 26, 2014 1:51 PM GMT
^That's wrong.

Matchbook charges a small, 1% commission on each bet you place. This commission rate is then applied to the win amount on winning bets, or the lesser of the stake or potential win amount, for losing bets.

https://www.matchbook.com/page/faqs/commission/
Report YOMOMMA January 26, 2014 4:44 PM GMT
If you bet 1.01 x 1000 your profit is 10 and you pay 1% comm = 0.10. (You get back 1009.90 not 999.9)

£100 @ 2.00 and you win you pay £1.00, if you lose you still pay £1.00

Lay £100 @ 1.5, if you win you pay £1.00, if you lose you pay £0.50 (1% of £50).
Report TheVis January 26, 2014 5:38 PM GMT
People aren't go to purple en masse until they get a genuinely competitive in running offering.  It could happen, it may never happen, but purple is going nowhere until it gets a decent post-off culture.
Report vgeo78 January 26, 2014 6:03 PM GMT
Bayern Munich win the match (You win your bet)
You have backed Bayern Munich at 3.76 for €5, so you will pay €0.138 in commission
This is equal to 1% on your profit of €13.80
Barcelona win the match (You lose your bet)
You have backed Bayern Munich at 3.76 for €5 so you will pay €0.05 in commission.
This is equal to 1.0% of your €5 stake because this is the lesser of your stake (€5) or potential profit (€13.80)

yomomma these examples are from their site. the charge the whole winning amount not the winnings. i sent them an e-mail and they admit that is what i wrote.
Report vgeo78 January 26, 2014 6:04 PM GMT
not the net winnings
Report Coachbuster January 26, 2014 6:07 PM GMT
frog , remember Betfair isn't a bookies -they won't like you saying that .

Betfair is an 'experience'  a truly premium one at that - haven't you seen all the 'cash out 'adverts ?  Wink
Report vgeo78 January 26, 2014 6:10 PM GMT
and if you back 100e@2 and lay at 1.8 are separated. if you win you gonna get 20e net winnings minus commission in bf or purple. there you gonna pay 1e for the first and 0.8 for the second, its a little strange  .that is their answer

With regard to your example, if you were staking 1000@1.01 and won, your profit would be 10, not 0.1.  That said I do understand what you're saying, and yes it would be possible under those circumstances to not win an amount large enough to cover your commission.  However the odds you mention are somewhat extreme and would appear rarely.

With regard to your question on back and lay betting.  Backing and Laying are separate wagers, you would pay commission on them each.

Commission on lay betting does treat your liability as your stake. And the standard rules would apply.
Report vgeo78 January 26, 2014 6:12 PM GMT
you must be idiot to use cash out button.you always lose profit than doing it yourself
Report YOMOMMA January 26, 2014 8:17 PM GMT
It's still dirt cheap.
Report YOMOMMA January 26, 2014 8:20 PM GMT
When I opened my account with them I had 2 months free commission and after the 2 months finished they still haven't started charging me anything yet.
Report YOMOMMA January 26, 2014 8:35 PM GMT
vgeo, They charge per transaction - yes. If you bet twice on the same event to close a position you're charged commission on each bet. Perhaps that is a bit of a downside but it's so cheap otherwise I'm not bothered.
Report Coachbuster January 26, 2014 11:37 PM GMT
Betfair has the market on outsiders

100/1 bookie odds can be 300/1 or more  on here

for hot favourites outright - forget it, bokkies win almost every time for value
Report TheInvestor2 January 27, 2014 2:57 AM GMT
hazel
hazel 24 Jan 14 23:11 Joined: 15 Jun 01 | Topic/replies: 521 | Blogger: hazel's blog
Investor2 with a 30% increase in the MBR (from 5 to 6.5) I would expect the implied commission to increase at the same rate.  i.e from 3% to 3.9%
Rate reply:
| report


Although that does seem reasonable, I would be a backer of 3% as the implied commission rate at even money. Unless someone actually knows the answer?
Report fixed January 27, 2014 3:11 AM GMT
pls go to the back end of the queue with your even money bet
Report vgeo78 January 27, 2014 11:08 AM GMT
i did not figure yet if 6.5% is going to apply in uk too after 31/1/2014. and if the answer is no what if i register my account in uk??does anybody knows??
Report Swedebank January 31, 2014 7:59 AM GMT
Still just the old commission payed. Will it be retroactive?
Report YOMOMMA February 1, 2014 11:36 AM GMT
if u r now paying 6.5%, does that mean if u pay what they call 20% premium charge it is actually 23.25%!!! wot a con. Scared
Report Optimizer February 1, 2014 3:27 PM GMT
I am still getting charged the old commission of 5%. Could I have missunderstood the message from Betfair Customer Service?

Can anyone clarify? For my betting style, this is not unimportant..

Dear XXX,

At Betfair you always get the best possible products and services. To ensure you continue to get a premium experience, we are increasing the base commission rate on Betfair Exchange markets in your country to 6.5% from January 30th.

You can of course continue to earn significant discounts of up to 60% on this commission rate through the Betfair points system. A full explanation of how your commission is calculated can be found at Betfair Learning.

This rate increase does not apply to any promotional markets with a fixed commission rate.

Thank you for your continued business and good luck with your future betting at Betfair.

Yours sincerely,

Betfair Customer Service

Please note that the "Rules" tab which is found on each market on the website is incorrectly displaying the Market Base Rate as 5%. The correct Market Base Rate for you is 6.5%.
Report YOMOMMA February 1, 2014 5:22 PM GMT
Don't know how you can still bet with them to be honest, if they increased it for me I certainly wouldn't. 5% is too much as it is.
Report Soulwing February 3, 2014 10:36 AM GMT
Sweden was supposed to be 6.5%. I used to have 4.9%. This morning I had 6.94%! I will have to double-check more markets. Have transferred almost all business to Purple and Matchbook.
Report Soulwing February 3, 2014 10:58 AM GMT
Am managing other peoples Swedish accounts. They have gone from 4.9% to 6.11-6.35%. I guess this seems more normal. I will double-check later on.
Report Castiron February 3, 2014 11:46 AM GMT
You can win paying 10% if you are good enough.
Report YOMOMMA February 3, 2014 1:36 PM GMT
Depends what sort of betting you do. If you arb you can't pay extra high commission.
Report Dav_vin03 February 3, 2014 2:29 PM GMT
surely 6.5% in the uk - exodus to purple?

what are the alternatives to betfair and purple?
Report vgeo78 February 3, 2014 3:50 PM GMT
from today is 6.5(minus discount). i was at 2.4 and now at 3.12.bf now value to me anymore as purple is 3% for all and also matchbook to play.
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