You have never heard of the three best bookmakers in the world

what about the fluctuation in value of the bitcoin? it dropped around 25% in value last week

I prophesied this back in October

CLYDEBANK29
22 Oct 13 17:37

If regulators screw bookies and gamblers it leads to underground gambling.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the richest bookies in the world are those that are tapping in to China and India.  Technology will keep on moving forward and if the bitcoin really establishes itself that will help underground gambling even more.  Illegal gambling is possibly helping the bitcoin as much as anything


ballabriggs

ballabriggs
22 Oct 13 17:00

why's that Clydebank?

CLYDEBANK29
22 Oct 13 16:46

We'll end up with the most successful gambling operations being illegal and funded by bitcoins, if we haven't already.

Please continue this discussion so I can get my head round what the @@@@ it is.

its hard enough trusting bookies online with pounds, euros and dollars

betting in bitcoins with no trace of bets or bookie adresses, ...asking for trouble.....

good luck with a decent payout

The bitcoin bookmakers listed are about as useful as an ash tray on a motorbike.

None of them do horse-racing. They cover just about every sport known to man EXCEPT horse racing.

What is it with all these so called "sportsbooks". Are they sh1t scared to make a book on anything with more than 2 or 3 possible outcomes?

I just don't get it. Have I become a dinosaur in the world of betting?


As for this bitcoin concept, it's got me extremely confused. I too can't get my head around it. It sounds a bit like betting with matchsticks.

If I was going to Uni again the Bitcoin is what I'd want to study.  Is it here to stay and really establish itself?  Is it going to collapse?  How do you police it?  What will it mean for the world economy?

What will it mean for match fixing?

You'll have to pay your bribes in bitcoins I suppose.

Which is a pity really because punters won't be able to claim bribe money as a business expense on their tax returns any more

Burton-Brewers
what about the fluctuation in value of the bitcoin? it dropped around 25% in value last week

The volatility will reduce over time as the market cap grows and people get used to the idea

Super Hans
Please continue this discussion so I can get my head round what the @@@@ it is.

This might help http://bitcoin-betting-guide.com/bitcoin-betting-101/ What in particular is confusing you?


CLYDEBANK29
If I was going to Uni again the Bitcoin is what I'd want to study.  Is it here to stay and really establish itself?  Is it going to collapse?  How do you police it?  What will it mean for the world economy?

You can take a masters of Digital currency and pay for it in bitcoins at University of Nicosia, Cyprus. I honestly think it will change the world economy, it has to, it lets people transact with no financial institutions or government or currency exchanges or any friction whatsoever.

also what if you accidentally lose a million quid worth of bitcoins when you throw your computer away like that guy on the Jeremy Vine show

What in particular is confusing you?

Let me explain.

This is the future of gambling.

Why have you never heard of them ?

I don't think that that explanation would have cleared up any confusion.

Fixed,

Why would people bet in a currency that experiences huge price fluctuations and at this stage is incredibly unstable? Yes further down the line it may well be the next big thing but I think most people would much rather know what is happening to the currency with which they are betting.

If people want to take a position on the value of bitcoins that is something else and can be done elsewhere.

I would also worry about being paid out for big bets. In such a murky unregulated environment who is to say that the operation in question wont just disappear into the night..

at some point bitcoin is going to zero. it's intrinsically worthless.

Money is intrinsically worthless too.  The more the Bitcoin establishes itself the less likely it's going to collapse.  I'm a little surprised that there isn't a concerted international and political campaign to undermine it and try to render it worthless myself.

No, money isn't intrinsically worthless. It's a claim on real resources. A dollar is ultimately a claim against the resources and future production of the American economy backed by the US state. Its value is determined by what those resources are likely to be, and how much trust it's reasonable to put in the US state.

Bitcoin is backed by precisely nothing. At some point it's going to Minsky its way down the toilet of economic history at a rate of knots. Anyone who wants to speculate in it or hold it to gamble with, fine. In the short term they may even make money. But if they're left holding it when it tanks, no one will bail them out and they'll be left with made up "money" that's literally worth less than Monopoly money.

I don't know if Bitcoin itself will be "the" next big thing, but the general concept of unregulated free market exchanges in the real sense of the words is absolutely going to happen and yes, I believe International/Political/Banking/Media campaigns will do their very best (worst) to break it and others like it down as they fear, with good reason (from their perspective), that the public are seeking exactly things like this and letting go of what no longer works. It is time for change on a grand scale.

Ultimately though, it is kind of inevitable this is where we will end up, without the banksters and Governments involvement in every last tiny detail of control in society. Those days are numbered and have to fall.

It is not so much a question of If, it is more a question of when. I don't think it will be very long. So concepts like Bitcoin make perfect sense to me, but obviously it will come with its own challenges, at least initially.

Gold and silver are effectively currency and some would advocate the safest currency in the world.  It doesn't have to be linked to a nation's output to maintain itself as a currency.

Gold and silver have over 3 thousand years history behind them, and have been universally recognised as having value for most of that time. They also have real use value as commodities. Bitcoin was made up by some randomers a couple of years back. It has no intrinsic use value that can't be infinitely replicated.

It's just basic economics. You can't arbitrarily create value out of thin air. There may well be a "frictionless" cyber-currency in the future, but it won't be one that's issued by an anonymous entity with no resources to underwrite it.

Economic history is absolutely littered with sh!t like this, and it nearly always happens in exactly the conditions we have now: low interest rates, monetary expansion and some kind of "displacement" that lets people argue it's different this time. Reality always wins sooner or later.

I wouldn't touch it and my immediate reaction was it is a bubble and it will collapse.  In monetary terms they have created value out of thin air, billions and billions of it.  For me though it boils down to 3 main things:

1. Whether there is a demand for it.  The answer to that is definitely yes
2. Whether it passes a level of acceptance as a means of payment for goods and services and this is growing all the time.
3. Whether governments can and desire to crush it.

There is a worldwide recession, building projects, investments and jobs are on are on hold, yet the amount of resources the world has, and the technology the world has to utilise those resources, is where it would be regardless of whether there was a recession or not.

by definition, there's a demand for the object of speculation in every bubble. almost entirely based on the perceived future direction of the price.

the question is, what resilience does it have when that expectation goes into reverse? that resilience usually comes from one or both of two sources:

1) underlying fundamental value
2) the expectation of a bailout.

Bitcoin has no underlying fundamental value, and no one to bail it out.

If it has no intrinsic value and it is not widely accepted in the public mainstream then doesn't that mean that anyone who has any investment in this really then becomes a salesperson for the product.

I would look into it further myself but I am too busy learning Esperanto.

Tom

Why would people bet in a currency that experiences huge price fluctuations and at this stage is incredibly unstable?

Because they want the best odds,to be able to deposit and withdraw any amount almost fee and instantly 24/7, because they want to be anonymous or because they live somewhere where most good options are blocked and illegal. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The factors that give something value are that it be useful and scars. Bitcoins are getting more useful and GBPs are getting less scars so you can guess where that will take the price relationship.

The fact that Bitcoin is not backed by any single centralized body like the GBP is backed by the British government is a big advantage because that point of centralization is a potential weakness or breaking point.

Bitcoin has a lot backing it. It has millions of users and incredible computing power behind it. The difference is they are not concentrated in any one body or place that can be atacted or make mistakes like a government can, they are decentralized.

The bitcoin is vastly superior to gold and silver because what is this 1851? :)

Can a Bangladeshi working a construction site in Singapore instantly convert his pay into gold / bitcoin and send whatever amount of it he likes back to Bangladesh almost instantly and almost for free? Bitcoin yes, gold no

Has gold / bitcoin value been rising for the last 4 years? bitcoin yes, gold no.

Does gold / bitcoin let the unbanked become banked? bitcoin yes, gold no

Does gold / bitcoin let people get around government impositions such as currency controls, investment restrictions and taxes? bitcoin yes, gold in a few cases with great difficulty

Can I take my net worth in gold / bitcoins with me all around the world, no hassles? bitcoin yes, gold no.

Does gold / bitcoin have incredible potential we have not even thought of yet?
bitcoin yes, gold no.

The fact that Bitcoin is not backed by any single centralized body like the GBP is backed by the British government is a big advantage because that point of centralization is a potential weakness or breaking point.

----------

that's the usual economic illiteracy you get when people have bought into nonsense. it's not backed by anyone. no one is going to bail it out if/when it gets into trouble, which will create the feedback loop that takes it to zero. they might as well have called it the Minsky.

Xnada,

I must be missing something as I just don't quite understand. Why would I possibly want to place a bet on something at say even money (which I happen to think is value) when due to bitcoins fluctuations in value, it might mean the price is actually 1.5 or 3.

I can deposit & withdraw from my accounts pretty instantaneously using ewallets. That is 24/7.

I struggle to see best odds. I had a look and they have a margin like any other bookmaker. If they didn't I would be worried. I maybe wrong but just cannot believe they are best odds (such a generic throwaway cliche). From what I have seen the range of sports they cover tend to be very limited. They are not going to be in the business of just giving money away.

I can understand the desire for anonymity but when this is risked against the lack of trustworthiness of the bookmaker it balances itself out. If you have ever had many accounts in places other than those that are well established, those bookmakers are a nightmare to deal with. It would come as no surprise if they simply vanished into thin air with your bitcoins. 

All I see is that potential for more skullduggery in certain sports that are already rife with it. Throw in the money laundering implications. I will be amazed if governments sit there and do nothing.

exactly, tom - it's yet another bitcoin ramp thinly disguised as a post about bookmaking value. if you gamble using bitcoins, what you're actually doing is speculating in the price of bitcoin and the trustworthiness of whatever anonymous entity's holding your funds.

and you're right. governments won't sit there and do nothing. quite rightly, they're not going to allow  a pseudo-currency to continue to exist whose USP boils down to how great it is for financing crime.

Let's be honest here.  It's not aimed at UK customers.  It's aimed at countries where betting is illegal, severely restricted or barbarically regulated.

Tom

   

I can deposit & withdraw from my accounts pretty instantaneously using ewallets. That is 24/7.


There are fees (some you see some you don't but all you pay for) you have to trust the third party and worst of all you have to get the third parties permission! They might do what citibank did and just decide gambling is immoral and not process payments to it!

I struggle to see best odds. I had a look and they have a margin like any other bookmaker.

The markets I have bet on and calculated had ~2.5% overround same as Pini and Betfair.

You can check that here http://bitcoin-betting-guide.com/overround-and-probability-calculator/ its a great tool for comparing bookmakers BTW. 

I will be amazed if governments sit there and do nothing.

There is nothing they can do to stop bitcoin, they can and will and are trying their best to monoter everything though.

viva el presidente!

it's not backed by anyone. no one is going to bail it out if/when it gets into trouble, which will create the feedback loop that takes it to zero.

Its back by everyone who knows it has value. As the price falls people who believe it is worth more than the current price start buying reversing the price fall. It happens all the time, there is not endless feedback loop or it would have already gone to 0 one of the many time the price has fallen.

Some people seem to be happy their money is backed by the government takes 3% from them every year in inflation by printing more money and allowing fractional reserve lending but I and many other are not. Bitcoin is honest money that is partaken in voluntarily not through coercion and violence like the GBP.

You seem to have trouble with your comparisons.

Firstly you talk about being the best bookmakers and compare them with betfair but betfair is an exchange. so it's not really the same unless you can back and lay and trade in and out with these bookmakers.

Secondly it's not really a currency so you can't really compare it with the pound (or any other currency). Yes there might be some random pub you can use it in in London or clothes shop in sweden, but can you pay your mortgage or any utilities with it. Can you use it in Sainsbury's or BandQ. Can you buy a top shelf mag from your local newsagent with it. Let's face it it's an investment really not a currency so you're best off comparing it with other investments.

Personally i think it's a little naive to say that governments can't do anything. If the government really doesn't like something then there's plenty of things it can do.

"The BitPrice team has been in discussions with the UK government and regulators about Bitcoin for the past 9 months. Although I share many of the frustrations expressed here, I am much more optimistic about the outlook for Bitcoin in the UK.

As a prospective UK Bitcoin exchange, we have managed to secure meetings with the FCA, HM Treasury and Number 10 Policy Unit - in fact we’ve managed to get into Downing Street twice to talk about Bitcoin. At the higher levels there does seem to be a genuine desire to engage with and promote new financial technologies such as Bitcoin, and to increase competition in the UK banking and payments sector.

Educating people is still 99% of the battle – explaining what Bitcoin is, dispelling the myths and spelling out the benefits, whilst not ignoring the risks. The VAT issue is an example of the obvious lack of understanding of Bitcoin in some quarters. We were also notified by HMRC that they consider Bitcoin to be a voucher: "most likely a face-value voucher", on which VAT must be paid. For anyone with even a basic understanding of Bitcoin, this obviously doesn't make sense: they aren't issued by anyone, they don't have a "face value" and they can be redeemed for a wide range of goods and services.

If they insist on using the "voucher" classification, the "credit voucher", which can be "redeemed at a number of retailers" and on which VAT is not usually due, seems more appropriate. Hopefully this issue can be resolved quickly by simply switching to this classification.

The upshot of these meetings is that we do now have a commitment from the Treasury that they will seriously consider how Bitcoin might achieve official recognition in the UK. In doing this the government is seeking input from Bitcoin businesses, for example through the FinTech Challenger Business Workshop that NewFinance organised a couple of weeks ago. Any interested parties can submit comments, which will be passed on to the government, see:

http://files.meetup.com/2243521/RFC%20-%20FinTech%20Challenger%20Businesses%20Workshop%20-%20Oct%202013%20.pdf

A common concern expressed by many fintech businesses at this event was the difficulty in obtaining bank accounts and accessing the UK payments network. This issue isn’t restricted to Bitcoin businesses – at the moment it is almost impossible for any money service business to obtain a bank account in the UK. The current lack of recognition of Bitcoin by financial regulators doesn't help the situation, but it is a wider money laundering issue.

Overall, I am optimistic that the UK will take an enlightened approach to Bitcoin, and that banking and tax issues will be resolved soon. London has become so dependent on the financial services sector that it simply cannot afford to ignore such a revolutionary financial innovation.

Tom Robinson

BitPrice

www.bitprice.com"

The feeling I'm getting is that the UK is lagging behind "the USA, China and Germany" in its acceptance of the Bitcoin.  That the FBI are not overly concerned about it financing crime as there will be a computer trail and that proper regulation is better than driving it underground.

There's obviously demand for a digital currency but why should it be the Bitcoin that prevails? Plenty of innovative products over the years have paved the way for others to come in and effectively replace them.

I don't see what Bitcoin has that other altcoins can't replicate or improve on. It's value can obviously go down as well as up, a fact largely overlooked by its bullish backers.

This has plenty of hallmarks to suggest to me that it could easily be a bubble.

Just be careful everyone, there are a lot of scam sites around at the moment.

Regarding a UK based exchange, the IR have the stated bitcoins bought in the UK are subject to VAT! They will have to see how silly this is eventually I'm sure.

1.01 layer

I don't see what Bitcoin has that other altcoins can't replicate or improve on.

The thing that is very hard to replicate is the network effect and first mover advantage bitcoin has such as millions of dollars of computing power securing it and millions of people already transacting in it. An analogy is why nobody speaks esperanto even though its technically superior to English, chinese etc.

The thing that is easy to replicate and maaaaaby improve on is the bitcoin protocol but bitcoin can in turn update its protocol to add any beneficial features alt coins come up with. Bitcoin is changeable and dynamic, alt coins are the testing ground for future bitcoin improvements.

xnada, I'm not sure I understand how computing power secures anything.  As we know, computers can be reprogrammed.  I take your point about first mover advantage, which I guess, is why Bitcoin has gone up in value so much (I'm not sure that language is a good analogy - after all, we don't hear much Sumerian or ancient Greek these days). The flipside though, is that it is very exposed to negative aspects too, such as bad press, punitive legislation and cybercrime, to name but a few potential pitfalls. Remember Napster? Nice of them to pave the way for iTunes, Spotify and the various torrent sites we have now.

If you've been lucky enough to make a packet on the Bitcoin rise in value you'd be wise to take some profit.

Its back by everyone who knows it has value.

----------

Sorry, but all that shows is that you need to learn some basic economics.

By your definition the object of every Ponzi scheme and speculative mania has been "backed" by the people who've invested in it, from tulip bulbs to CDOs squared. People who "knew" those things couldn't fall below a certain value. Well, guess what?

If your bitcoin bookies go t!ts up, who will bail them out? If Bitcoin tanks, who will stand as the lender of last resort, with the resources and will to support it not for their own financial benefit, but for the wellbeing of the broader system?

The answers are: 1) nobody and 2) nobody.

I can understand why many people believe Bitcoin is a Ponzi/bubble, there are many similar traits.  Personally, I think Bitcoin is the bet of the century, and duly placed my bets.  Any bettor worth his salt will bet when they perceive value.  I also consider it insurance, just like my percentage of portfolio invested in Gold and Silver.

A few points why I think it is value/insurance and has massive potential:

It is no different to any other fiat.  In the 1970's the gold backing of the USD was removed.  This has meant there is no backing of the reserve fiat currency, thus it can be printed to infinity like we see with QE and US's printing of $85 billion per month.  The argument that the "State" is the value behind a currency doesn't reassure, considering i.e., the $16+ trillion debt (the last I looked) and growing in the US.  I just can't see tapering ever happening, the longer QE continues the harder it becomes to taper.

Also, there is an estimated $600 trillion+ bet in derivatives in the world?  Not sure what the real risk is (percentage wise) as the scary thing is, derivatives are not zero sum.  Given that the world GDP is estimated to be around $65 trillion, this is very worrying.  This to me is the main attraction of bitcoin, it is zero-sum and has a maximum of 21 million coins that can be mined.  No printing allowed! 

The IMF paint a bleak picture of the worlds economies (banks) and look to be working on plan B:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2013/10/15/the-international-monetary-fund-lays-the-groundwork-for-global-wealth-confiscation/
Which also links to the official paper:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fm/2013/02/pdf/fm1302.pdf
The fact that the IMF have printed this paper speaks volumes imo!

When we see bank bail-ins next year (I predict), I think Bitcoin will see excessive amounts of money flood in. 

At its extreme, Bitcoin has the potential to become "The" global currency.  On the other hand, the world governments could squash it, however, those politicans not corrupted, I am sure, understand the need to remove the enormous power wielded by the banks.  Bitcoin offers one such possibility.

I think there are many current problems with bitcoin, mainly its volatility but this is to be expected in its infancy and adoption phase(where I believe it is).

There are many other features that make Bitcoin look attractive but I have written too much already (time).

In my opinion, Bitcoin offers some hope in our corrupt world.  Finally!  My favourite bet for a long time!!!  BTC 50,000 in five years ;)

I'm not sure I understand how computing power secures anything

In the case of digital currencies the more computing power in the network the more secure because only way to compromise the network it is to control 51% of nodes and hashing power.

As we know, computers can be reprogrammed

That is the beauty of decentralisation. While one dozen computers in a building can easily be reprogrammed and 100 computers in a few buildings is doable. Hundreds of thousands of computers all around the world can not just be re-programed. The operators of all of the computers can choose to reprogram them but in our case all the operators hold bitcoins.   

If your bitcoin bookies go t!ts up, who will bail them out?

I had an account with Sports Alive they were a fully licenced bif bookmaker in Australia, actually they were in partnership with betfair australias multibet product when I worked there. Anyway they went tits up and none of us account holders got a cent of our balances. So it could happen in all cases.

If the government really doesn't like something then there's plenty of things it can do.

To clarify governments can not end bitcoin without ending the internet. They could fight against it but that would do more harm to them than to bitcoin. What they really want to do is monitor everything and bitcoin is pretty useful to them for that.

The bitcoin is vastly superior to gold and silver because what is this 1851? :)



Gold is still very sought after in 2013

Gold is still very sought after in 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUs7iG1mNjI

While it is true governments can't end bit coin they can declare it illegal, which would basically end it if you could never cash it out. This has already been done when the Thai governmant declared them illegal. They can also be regulated like China did last week. Generally though, governments the world over have debated them, and with considerable promise. It does seem to be the case that economists and people in the financial world seem to be the ones who have the poorest understanding of them. They look to existing theories to find a peg to hang them on which is why we get all this tulip and bubble stuff. The problem is an existing peg does not exist, one needs a paradigm shift in thinking to understand what is going on.

Getafix if someone is in debt, then someone else is in credit.  That Forbes article completely fails to answer that fundamental principle that the media NEVER addresses.  The credit is held by financial institutions.  Their argument seems to be that the wealthy (who one assumes hold the credit, with their investments in the financial institutions) can only finance 1% of the debt.  It's utter drivel.

>Getafix if someone is in debt, then someone else is in credit

That would be true in a zero-sum world, however because everything is bet on margins and obligations are not met (i.e., defaults) this idea of someone in credit/the other in debt does not work.  Have a look at the world debt calculator:
http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

The unfair printing of money benefits those closest to its issuance i.e., the bankers and thus the stock markets bubbles everywhere (rather than filtering to the people where it is needed).  It simply dilutes existing wealth.

My argument above is weak wrt zero-sum without explaining more complexities, esp since that global debt clock only shows public debt.  I'll see if I can try and find something to explain properly what I am getting at... regardless, the whole banking system is like a huge casino, you aren't bothered so much about losing when it's not your money you are betting with (and there are no repercussions).

From what I have read so far, it does appear that derivatives are zero sum, against what I had originally thought.  I am happy to admit being wrong, it is complicated in the loss of value and the also subjective value esp wrt toxic assets etc.  The worry really is if the derivative bets were all rolled out, who would be the ultimate beneficiaries and ultimate losers?  Who has the right to put nations under so much risk?

>Their argument seems to be that the wealthy (who one assumes hold the credit, with their investments in the financial institutions) can only finance 1% of the debt.
I think you misunderstood the article, he was saying that if all the money of the ultra wealthy (the top 1%) of the worlds population was expropriated, it still would not be enough to cover the governments costs.  Basically he was saying everyone would be affected.

You'd want to see a credit clock too imo.  A debt clock without a corresponding credit clock is meaningless and regardless it is important for the general public to understand that there is a credit for every debit and who is in credit. We all know who is in debt, but we are blinded to who is in credit.  Those in credit as a group need to spend and this needs to be higlighted in public consciousness.  Rather than bang on about the amount of debt, the press should be banging on about the relationship between the debt and credit.  The IMF is right to consider arbitary global wealth attacks if the relationship between those in debt and credit is unsustainable.  That it has at least considered it should be a no brainer.

The Forbes article is bunkum fueled by self interest i.e. "don't you dare take any of our wealth, we haven't got enough and it won't work"

The truth is no one knows what is the best policy economically or where the economy is heading.  The greatest economists for years have been getting it wrong.

I see Bitcoins down 25% today on news that China is banning Yuan based deposits..

and a bit more ......

I just don't understand why it's dropped so much. I was told that the Governments couldn't do anything to stop bitcoin. Surely everyone knows this and so it's share price should remain completely unaffected.

"Hello it's betfair here, you know you had £1000 in your account. We've decided to take £500 so you've only got £500 now."
Best 3 bookmakers in the world my ring piece.

i'm starting berk coin, theres ten million of them, initial price £1 each, just send me the money and you'll receive an email confirming you are the owner of berkcoins. what could be a better investment than that.
trust me.

Nice try uncle nasty, mine are called Mugcoins and there are only 1 million of them, so they are obviously worth loads more than yours. Send me the cash instead. 
They are obviously as safe as houses because I've typed out a Word document that says so.

ah but for the publics added security, i'll be using a forever changing ip address. so no one will know where your money is. so it can't be stolen. how safe is that

Never heard of those bookmakers other than on xnada's referral site I doubt I'll ever hear about them again

At the moment the only people I see bigging up bitcoin are people holding coins, seems more of a speculators currency than anything else to be honest, can't see it catching on soon as you pretty much need a degree in computing to understand the underlying mechanics and that certainly isn't your average Joe Bloggs.

With a market cap at 21 million Bitcoins it's hard to see it amounting to much more than a proof of concept ideology at the moment, yes I'm aware we can go to thousands of decimal points but hard to see a world economy running on it especially as plenty of other cryptocurrencies have already sprouted up and learned from any mistakes Bitcoin have made. I guess one day we'll see cryptocurrenies in every day use but I'd be very surprised if it's Bitcoin.

if the 21million quid never actually existed.......

best thing that can happen to a very speculative investment is big majority of average joe's rejecting it initially