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We know the forums are full of people who make a living using time advantages and shell and pea activities to mug betfair customers often at the cost of the rest of us losing those customers forever. Bookmakers seem to hang on to their customers despite lack of in-running or confining in-running bet placement to neutral moments.
Does anyone know how much of betfair's income comes from in-running (not to be confused with turnover which is obviously bloated by ping-pong money and large 1.01 bets)?
Does anyone know how much of betfair's income comes from in-running (not to be confused with turnover which is obviously bloated by ping-pong money and large 1.01 bets)?
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Pre and post pc figures would obviously be appreciated.
ann witt 08 Nov 13 07:51 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 180 | Blogger: ann witt's blog
We know the forums are full of people who make a living using time advantages and shell and pea activities to mug betfair customers often at the cost of the rest of us losing those customers forever
I bet exclusively in running on the horses.
I have no time advantage other than Racing UK & Betfair Video, all available to anyone. Both have time lags of at least 2/3 secs behind live so I am at a disadvantage.
There are loads like me. Most I would say. I make it pay and do it for a living. Loads of others do too. The myth that everyone who makes money has some sort of time advantage always gets rolled out. Of course it goes on but not to the extent that people think.
We know the forums are full of people who make a living using time advantages and shell and pea activities to mug betfair customers often at the cost of the rest of us losing those customers forever
I bet exclusively in running on the horses.
I have no time advantage other than Racing UK & Betfair Video, all available to anyone. Both have time lags of at least 2/3 secs behind live so I am at a disadvantage.
There are loads like me. Most I would say. I make it pay and do it for a living. Loads of others do too. The myth that everyone who makes money has some sort of time advantage always gets rolled out. Of course it goes on but not to the extent that people think.
I'm in the same boat as Amanda, and to add a bit relevant to the initial post I have placed large sums pre race, every race, for ten years that would stop at a stroke were there no IR. I expect there are many in that position too.
We know the forums are full of people who make a living using time advantages and shell and pea activities to mug betfair customers often at the cost of the rest of us losing those customers forever
Some of us are also making a living trading in-play using Sky Sports pictures. What enables us to profit is being able to price up the events as they are happening.
One of the attractions of betting in-play is that the playing field is more level in terms of information. Pre-off, a few privileged individuals can profit from their inside knowledge. Once the event starts, most, or almost all, of that information becomes public.
This, Feck, is probably a big reason why the pre-off markets are rather dry, especially in your chosen sport, which is more vulnerable than most to the effect of insider trading.
Some of us are also making a living trading in-play using Sky Sports pictures. What enables us to profit is being able to price up the events as they are happening.
One of the attractions of betting in-play is that the playing field is more level in terms of information. Pre-off, a few privileged individuals can profit from their inside knowledge. Once the event starts, most, or almost all, of that information becomes public.
This, Feck, is probably a big reason why the pre-off markets are rather dry, especially in your chosen sport, which is more vulnerable than most to the effect of insider trading.
In case it wasn't obvious I also bet decent money every race IR of course....
Read somewhere that about half of b365 and hills online profits come from inplay. On Betfair tennis, soccer and cricket about 90% of traded sum are inplay. The longer the event lasts the higher the percentage.
And in defence of the sport where I do almost all my trading (football), it is a very fair betting environment.
The fact that Betfair manage the markets with the suspend system means that time advantages are much less significant: last night, for instance, I did about 15% of the volume in the Tottenham match odds market, using regular UK tv pictures. And the fact that it's a team game, with, in the case of the top-level European leagues at least, players earning large amounts of money, means that it's not massively susceptible to corruption.
The fact that Betfair manage the markets with the suspend system means that time advantages are much less significant: last night, for instance, I did about 15% of the volume in the Tottenham match odds market, using regular UK tv pictures. And the fact that it's a team game, with, in the case of the top-level European leagues at least, players earning large amounts of money, means that it's not massively susceptible to corruption.
Some of us are also making a living trading in-play using Sky Sports pictures. What enables us to profit is being able to price up the events as they are happening.
Shell and pea is also available using the general feed on flies-round-sh1te markets. If you're profit is based entirely on pricing events as they happen then would it matter to you if you could only bet during neutral moments?
frog, surprised at those b365/hills figures. The 90% betfair figure presumably relates to turnover which makes it meaningless.
Shell and pea is also available using the general feed on flies-round-sh1te markets. If you're profit is based entirely on pricing events as they happen then would it matter to you if you could only bet during neutral moments?
frog, surprised at those b365/hills figures. The 90% betfair figure presumably relates to turnover which makes it meaningless.
Football I don't have much of a problem with contrarian although there are people being hoovered there who might then leave the site. There's also the problem of being able to bet 0-0 when it's 3-3.
If you're profit is based entirely on pricing events as they happen then would it matter to you if you could only bet during neutral moments?
No, I wouldn't have a problem with that, in principle. For the bots I run, it would certainly be an advantage, in the sense that their margins would increase. However, both manual trading and bot turnover would undoubtedly drop significantly. People want to bet as much of the time as possible. If there were constant interruptions to the times, in-play, when they could place their bets, they'd just go elsewhere.
As far as football is concerned, anyway, a very large percentage of the in-play time is neutral already. This is why I am able to run bots offering prices very close to fair value on in-play matches. There are, of course, certain moments - dangerous free kicks, etc - which are far from 'neutral'. But these are rare enough to allow a bot to make a profit, even though it doesn't know the details of what is happening on the pitch.
No, I wouldn't have a problem with that, in principle. For the bots I run, it would certainly be an advantage, in the sense that their margins would increase. However, both manual trading and bot turnover would undoubtedly drop significantly. People want to bet as much of the time as possible. If there were constant interruptions to the times, in-play, when they could place their bets, they'd just go elsewhere.
As far as football is concerned, anyway, a very large percentage of the in-play time is neutral already. This is why I am able to run bots offering prices very close to fair value on in-play matches. There are, of course, certain moments - dangerous free kicks, etc - which are far from 'neutral'. But these are rare enough to allow a bot to make a profit, even though it doesn't know the details of what is happening on the pitch.
Same for me as others responding, I'm 100% racing in-play, a straight back or lay punter. Have nothing other than a decent broadband connection & RUK & BF LV - I find it hard to believe that anybody has a significant advantage over what I'm seeing anymore.
Most of my betting is in-running on tennis, football, horses and when available, cricket. I have absolutely no time advantage, but conversely won't play when I know the time disadvantage is too weighted against me.
ann witt 08 Nov 13 10:58 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 186 | Blogger: ann witt's blog
Shell and pea is also available using the general feed on flies-round-sh1te markets. If you're profit is based entirely on pricing events as they happen then would it matter to you if you could only bet during neutral moments?
frog, surprised at those b365/hills figures. The 90% betfair figure presumably relates to turnover which makes it meaningless.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
Shell and pea is also available using the general feed on flies-round-sh1te markets. If you're profit is based entirely on pricing events as they happen then would it matter to you if you could only bet during neutral moments?
frog, surprised at those b365/hills figures. The 90% betfair figure presumably relates to turnover which makes it meaningless.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
sorry Feck, but I'm the same as mandarin, amanda, gerard etc ... horse racing only, 100% in running, no time advantage, decent Broadband,RUK and ATR.
no In Running, no gus, it's as simple as that
no In Running, no gus, it's as simple as that
No need to apologise gus. I never for a moment insinuated no one could make a profit at in-play without a time or interface cluedo advantage. I was really looking for answers such as frog's rather than a succession of "I'm an ir winner and I'd be gone without it" posts though. I was attempting to gauge the effect having fair markets would have. If exchange betting is to have a future something has to be done to stop the exodus of aggrieved punters.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
It's a lot less attractive to who Investor? I wouldn't imagine it would be a hindrance to sensible punters wanting a bet on the outcome of the game. Do you mean it wouldn't be the same without clowns betting at free kicks etc. not realising they'll only get matched if it doesn't result in a goal? "Constant availability of prices" is a bit of a misnomer on betfair, especially if you've got a 7 second bet placement countdown or you're a newbie with a 30 second refresh rate.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
It's a lot less attractive to who Investor? I wouldn't imagine it would be a hindrance to sensible punters wanting a bet on the outcome of the game. Do you mean it wouldn't be the same without clowns betting at free kicks etc. not realising they'll only get matched if it doesn't result in a goal? "Constant availability of prices" is a bit of a misnomer on betfair, especially if you've got a 7 second bet placement countdown or you're a newbie with a 30 second refresh rate.
oh god, is ann feck? that would explain a lot, actually.
and to answer the original question, yes it is.
that would explain a lot, actually.and to answer the original question, yes it is.
I've tried Pinnacle a bit for i/r on the NFL and I think the point Investor is getting at is that they rarely have a market up which makes it a very frustrating site to use in play as most of the time you cannot get a bet on.
The current in-play offering from BF still beats every other offering hands down merely by having the market available at all times. It's a huge advantage over all other i/r bookies who are constantly taking their prices down.
The current in-play offering from BF still beats every other offering hands down merely by having the market available at all times. It's a huge advantage over all other i/r bookies who are constantly taking their prices down.
So who the hell is losing money inrunning if every stay at home joe can make a killing using atr pictures? Half a furlong is long way...
dunno Muqbil ... and i dunno about the others on here, but I suspect I'm a bit like a mouse at a banquet scurrying around under the table snaffling up crumbs.
probably feck could think of a less wholesome analogy
probably feck could think of a less wholesome analogy
Nov 8, 2013 -- 11:23AM, ann witt wrote:
No need to apologise gus. I never for a moment insinuated no one could make a profit at in-play without a time or interface cluedo advantage. I was really looking for answers such as frog's rather than a succession of "I'm an ir winner and I'd be gone without it" posts though. I was attempting to gauge the effect having fair markets would have. If exchange betting is to have a future something has to be done to stop the exodus of aggrieved punters.That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.It's a lot less attractive to who Investor? I wouldn't imagine it would be a hindrance to sensible punters wanting a bet on the outcome of the game. Do you mean it wouldn't be the same without clowns betting at free kicks etc. not realising they'll only get matched if it doesn't result in a goal? "Constant availability of prices" is a bit of a misnomer on betfair, especially if you've got a 7 second bet placement countdown or you're a newbie with a 30 second refresh rate.
What is unfair about the markets at present?
BF live video is about 4.5 secs ahead of ATR, Muqbil - not ideal, as you are obviously still behind the track boys, but do-able.
ann witt 08 Nov 13 17:23 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 190 | Blogger: ann witt's blog
No need to apologise gus. I never for a moment insinuated no one could make a profit at in-play without a time or interface cluedo advantage. I was really looking for answers such as frog's rather than a succession of "I'm an ir winner and I'd be gone without it" posts though. I was attempting to gauge the effect having fair markets would have. If exchange betting is to have a future something has to be done to stop the exodus of aggrieved punters.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
It's a lot less attractive to who Investor? I wouldn't imagine it would be a hindrance to sensible punters wanting a bet on the outcome of the game. Do you mean it wouldn't be the same without clowns betting at free kicks etc. not realising they'll only get matched if it doesn't result in a goal? "Constant availability of prices" is a bit of a misnomer on betfair, especially if you've got a 7 second bet placement countdown or you're a newbie with a 30 second refresh rate.
Well from my point of view it's a loss less attractive because betting like that would mean far less turnover, which for me would equate to far less profit. As TheVis says, not being able to get a bet on for extended periods of time, is bad news.
I imagine that for the fun bettor, sitting there for 5 minutes in between bets patiently waiting for the next opportunity to have a go is not a premier entertainment experience either.
No need to apologise gus. I never for a moment insinuated no one could make a profit at in-play without a time or interface cluedo advantage. I was really looking for answers such as frog's rather than a succession of "I'm an ir winner and I'd be gone without it" posts though. I was attempting to gauge the effect having fair markets would have. If exchange betting is to have a future something has to be done to stop the exodus of aggrieved punters.
That's how pinnacle operates on some in play markets, and it's definitely a lot less attractive than the constant availability of prices on Betfair.
It's a lot less attractive to who Investor? I wouldn't imagine it would be a hindrance to sensible punters wanting a bet on the outcome of the game. Do you mean it wouldn't be the same without clowns betting at free kicks etc. not realising they'll only get matched if it doesn't result in a goal? "Constant availability of prices" is a bit of a misnomer on betfair, especially if you've got a 7 second bet placement countdown or you're a newbie with a 30 second refresh rate.
Well from my point of view it's a loss less attractive because betting like that would mean far less turnover, which for me would equate to far less profit. As TheVis says, not being able to get a bet on for extended periods of time, is bad news.
I imagine that for the fun bettor, sitting there for 5 minutes in between bets patiently waiting for the next opportunity to have a go is not a premier entertainment experience either.
I'm another IP Horse price trader RUK and Betfair Live Feed. If in play was abolished I would be greatly hindered.
Well from my point of view it's a loss less attractive because betting like that would mean far less turnover, which for me would equate to far less profit. As TheVis says, not being able to get a bet on for extended periods of time, is bad news.
I think we'd already established it would be bad news for you Investor but why would it be bad news for the recreational punter (least ways the recreational punter who isn't daft enough to think his bet will get matched if the free kick results in a goal)?
I think we'd already established it would be bad news for you Investor but why would it be bad news for the recreational punter (least ways the recreational punter who isn't daft enough to think his bet will get matched if the free kick results in a goal)?
ann witt 09 Nov 13 05:37 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 197 | Blogger: ann witt's blog
I think we'd already established it would be bad news for you Investor but why would it be bad news for the recreational punter (least ways the recreational punter who isn't daft enough to think his bet will get matched if the free kick results in a goal)?
See above
"I imagine that for the fun bettor, sitting there for 5 minutes in between bets patiently waiting for the next opportunity to have a go is not a premier entertainment experience either."
I think we'd already established it would be bad news for you Investor but why would it be bad news for the recreational punter (least ways the recreational punter who isn't daft enough to think his bet will get matched if the free kick results in a goal)?
See above
"I imagine that for the fun bettor, sitting there for 5 minutes in between bets patiently waiting for the next opportunity to have a go is not a premier entertainment experience either."
Witt, it's abundantly clear you are feck. Why deny it?
Where would these 5 minutes come in Investor? Most games are 90 minutes of sheer and utter boredom. If the suspend monkey could press a button to indicate the ball was not in play but in a dangerous position (e.g. free kick outside the box, corner) and unsuspend the moment it was back in play then bets could be provisionally matched immediately (i.e. no countdown) but only become fully matched after x seconds of non-suspended play elapsed. That would allow for people like contrarian to put up odds based offers without fear of being hoovered or mini hoovered (OK, I suppose someone could break clear and take x secs to score but unlikely for x>=7). In fact he'd be able to have the whole thing automated if the score and any ordering offs were available through the API. Would that not create more liquidity and give recreational punters a fairer go?
ann witt 09 Nov 13 11:34 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 197 | Blogger: ann witt's blog
Where would these 5 minutes come in Investor? Most games are 90 minutes of sheer and utter boredom. If the suspend monkey could press a button to indicate the ball was not in play but in a dangerous position (e.g. free kick outside the box, corner) and unsuspend the moment it was back in play then bets could be provisionally matched immediately (i.e. no countdown) but only become fully matched after x seconds of non-suspended play elapsed. That would allow for people like contrarian to put up odds based offers without fear of being hoovered or mini hoovered (OK, I suppose someone could break clear and take x secs to score but unlikely for x>=7). In fact he'd be able to have the whole thing automated if the score and any ordering offs were available through the API. Would that not create more liquidity and give recreational punters a fairer go?
That's what they do in Asia, it's called 'dangerball'. Except they do it in every dangerous situation, not just dead ball stuff. In the markets I trade this is close to a non-issue anyway. I had a go trading a Mexican match (over/unders) last night to see how much I would get matched, and I traded the whole thing without a feed, and still turned over a large proportion of the total. Match odds speed matters a lot more.
Where would these 5 minutes come in Investor? Most games are 90 minutes of sheer and utter boredom. If the suspend monkey could press a button to indicate the ball was not in play but in a dangerous position (e.g. free kick outside the box, corner) and unsuspend the moment it was back in play then bets could be provisionally matched immediately (i.e. no countdown) but only become fully matched after x seconds of non-suspended play elapsed. That would allow for people like contrarian to put up odds based offers without fear of being hoovered or mini hoovered (OK, I suppose someone could break clear and take x secs to score but unlikely for x>=7). In fact he'd be able to have the whole thing automated if the score and any ordering offs were available through the API. Would that not create more liquidity and give recreational punters a fairer go?
That's what they do in Asia, it's called 'dangerball'. Except they do it in every dangerous situation, not just dead ball stuff. In the markets I trade this is close to a non-issue anyway. I had a go trading a Mexican match (over/unders) last night to see how much I would get matched, and I traded the whole thing without a feed, and still turned over a large proportion of the total. Match odds speed matters a lot more.
for those without a time advantage, the attraction of in play betting is the capability to construct derivative bets in an encompassing market at perceived good value.
the bonus of course, and something which feck always had a pretty valid beef about, is that i can have scores of these derivative bets in an encompassing market whilst only paying commission on my net profit for the market.
the bonus of course, and something which feck always had a pretty valid beef about, is that i can have scores of these derivative bets in an encompassing market whilst only paying commission on my net profit for the market.
and how many goals actually materialise from 'dangerous situations' ?
the bulk of games tend to be 0-0,1-1,1-0,2-0 affairs -football is too low scoring
every so often you will get a high scoring 2-2,3-2 etc
then calculate the 'dangerous situations' per game ,and then work out how many goals are scored out of the blue , it wouldn't be worth anyones while for what they'd get matched (if they did )
you'd die of boredom first
the bulk of games tend to be 0-0,1-1,1-0,2-0 affairs -football is too low scoring
every so often you will get a high scoring 2-2,3-2 etc
then calculate the 'dangerous situations' per game ,and then work out how many goals are scored out of the blue , it wouldn't be worth anyones while for what they'd get matched (if they did )
you'd die of boredom first
Not sure what point you're making Coachbuster. Are you saying there's only liquidity at dangerous situations and/or nobody's interested in betting on the outcome of the match? Using the provisional matching idea, anyone who was at the game looking to take advantage of the new rules would certainly die of boredom. Is a level playing field the last thing most in-play "experts" want?
feck, if you were trying to sneak a living by trying to guess when a goal is imminent you'd be onto a loser , certainly in respect of wasted time and effort
the few goals you do get in soccer rarely materialise from so called dangerous situations ,and fast feed odds generally reflect the situation anyway
there is little recreational money in relation to the smart money
fast feed = analogue radio commentary
the few goals you do get in soccer rarely materialise from so called dangerous situations ,and fast feed odds generally reflect the situation anyway
there is little recreational money in relation to the smart money
fast feed = analogue radio commentary
Coachbuster, is it not the activities of dafties who think otherwise that make the market for shrewdies. In the tennis/cricket markets those who put their bets up at safe moments then get 7 or so seconds to decide if they want the incoming dafty's bets. If that "look ahead" facility wasn't there would liquidity plummet? I think it would. Are those attempting to take advantage of dangerous situations in football not just the equivalent of the tennis/cricket dafties who think the offer they're attempting to match will still be there if play goes their way?
If there's little recreational money surely the smart money is then chasing buttons in which case it must dwindle and die?
If there's little recreational money surely the smart money is then chasing buttons in which case it must dwindle and die?
if it walks like a feck and quacks like a feck...
I'm another in-running player horse racing with no time advantage - use RUK and BF LV. I could not contemplate doing what I was doing 10-20 years ago , i.e studying every race and deciding on my bets before the race - I believe there is so much corruption these days I would be skint within days.
Contrarian's post above (11.18) eloquently describes that attractiveness of in-running betting.
Contrarian's post above (11.18) eloquently describes that attractiveness of in-running betting.
not sure how many dafties are left - relative to the volume anyway . I have noticed that odds correspond very nicely with the action according to my analogue commentary, so it's all about the bots feeding off the crumbs .
Tennis matches i find, are much harder to gauge by radio commentary as Tennis is much faster paced than footie, with many more decisive elements happening every few minutes .
Betting using old BBC analogue during Wimbledon told you how many courtsiders were about - esp those flies round sh1te markets.
Tennis matches i find, are much harder to gauge by radio commentary as Tennis is much faster paced than footie, with many more decisive elements happening every few minutes .
Betting using old BBC analogue during Wimbledon told you how many courtsiders were about - esp those flies round sh1te markets
.
i think it is inplay which makes betfair tick(for pleasure) in comparison with bookies for casual punters. problem is that it is also extremely unfair to casual punters and it might be the reason why betfair struggles to retain and increase recreational punters money. i say this because probalities for outcome vary significantly while the odds dont change accordingly in play. at this moments some sophisticated punters offer and take value prices selectively while avoiding offers when they are against them. i think most casual punters offer will only be taken whne the odds are against them. at least pre off prices settle to true probalities and casual punters can get fair run for their money.
some posters here have mentioned football as a fair market but i totaly disagree. just to give an example i have seen bots which operate on correct score and offer odds according to where the ball and cancelling odds accordingly. in other markets such as overs/unders and match odds for example true price change significantly and very quickly(in seconds and minutes) but odds dont move as quickly and they get cherry picked.
i dont think how much revenue of betfair comes from pre off or inplay but i am quite confident most casual punters lose their money quickly in play than they would do pre off and most of the big winners make most of their money inplay. i cant see a system which can correct this inbuilt unfairness withoiut affecting the experiance of the site but betfair should and could arrange their pricing to reflect this unfairness.
some posters here have mentioned football as a fair market but i totaly disagree. just to give an example i have seen bots which operate on correct score and offer odds according to where the ball and cancelling odds accordingly. in other markets such as overs/unders and match odds for example true price change significantly and very quickly(in seconds and minutes) but odds dont move as quickly and they get cherry picked.
i dont think how much revenue of betfair comes from pre off or inplay but i am quite confident most casual punters lose their money quickly in play than they would do pre off and most of the big winners make most of their money inplay. i cant see a system which can correct this inbuilt unfairness withoiut affecting the experiance of the site but betfair should and could arrange their pricing to reflect this unfairness.
Yes Henok, that kind of stuff gives people an advantage, but punters are still far better off betting correct scores in play with betfair than with traditional bookies. Of course a more level playing field would be better for the exchange.
Cutting out a vast portion of the time available to place bets would be too high a price to pay though.
Cutting out a vast portion of the time available to place bets would be too high a price to pay though.
it's a hard nut to crack investor
a fair exchange that wasn't bothersome and rid of cheats would be a wonderful place
a fair exchange that wasn't bothersome and rid of cheats would be a wonderful place
what exactly is unfair about the markets now ?
you can see the price , the amount offered , place your bet if you like the odds or don't .
you can see the price , the amount offered , place your bet if you like the odds or don't .
i agree with harold_lloyd.
apart from such factors as tracksiders, and, to a limited extent those who have faster pictures ( if S.I.S is still faster ... i dunno), I really can't see what's unfair about IR horse racing.
folk express an opinion as to whether a runner is likely to win by offering to Back or Lay it.
I hold a different opinion and offer to match the Bet.
Very often, in fact most of the time, someone quicker than me matches the Bet first, so my offer is up there to be matched.
I never cancel the Bet, I never change it.
I add liquidity.
Of course my prices aren't, in my opinion, 'fair' ... if they were I'd just be aiming to break even and paying a helluva lot of commission, which, despite my naturally generous instincts, isn't actually the aim!
apart from such factors as tracksiders, and, to a limited extent those who have faster pictures ( if S.I.S is still faster ... i dunno), I really can't see what's unfair about IR horse racing.
folk express an opinion as to whether a runner is likely to win by offering to Back or Lay it.
I hold a different opinion and offer to match the Bet.
Very often, in fact most of the time, someone quicker than me matches the Bet first, so my offer is up there to be matched.
I never cancel the Bet, I never change it.
I add liquidity.
Of course my prices aren't, in my opinion, 'fair' ... if they were I'd just be aiming to break even and paying a helluva lot of commission, which, despite my naturally generous instincts, isn't actually the aim!
If Betfair could dis-invent in running they would, but they can't and if they didn't offer it someone else would.
None of the 60%ers are straight betters pre off that's for sure. It's possible a 60%er is a pre off risk averse market maker but still quite unlikely.
Most of the 60%ers and PC payers in general will be in running tennis or cricket traders. In these sports and in play in general there can be more advantages for the winners on these markets including:
time advantage
the way out prices being offered in running as people have a few seconds to decide the price
the countless entry and exit points
If your good and risk averse then losing on a five day test match shouldn't happen too often.
None of the 60%ers are straight betters pre off that's for sure. It's possible a 60%er is a pre off risk averse market maker but still quite unlikely.
Most of the 60%ers and PC payers in general will be in running tennis or cricket traders. In these sports and in play in general there can be more advantages for the winners on these markets including:
time advantage
the way out prices being offered in running as people have a few seconds to decide the price
the countless entry and exit points
If your good and risk averse then losing on a five day test match shouldn't happen too often.
harold_lloyd 10 Nov 13 10:01
what exactly is unfair about the markets now ?
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Psst, you're dealing with Feck, Cardinal of the church of feck betting. If you don't bet his way, it's apostasy to his true faith and you are a bad person. He decides. He's THAT important, and a socialist, so a better person than you'll ever be, don't you know? Learn that. It helps.
(Note : I HATE cheats I really do, but stopping actual cheating is not the limit to Feck's "true faith", which is what he is about)
Re this (not feck :) "If Betfair could dis-invent in running they would"
Nonsense? BF exchange make their money on volume and throughput. It's irrelevant to them how or what as a business model.
If they could have 10000 people betting all day on the cubic volume of London Sewer Flow, it would make sense to open the market and "let it flow".
I/R is a good thing as it gives freedom to people who want to bet on it, and as long as managed fairly according to the rules, it IS a good thing.
what exactly is unfair about the markets now ?
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Psst, you're dealing with Feck, Cardinal of the church of feck betting. If you don't bet his way, it's apostasy to his true faith and you are a bad person. He decides. He's THAT important, and a socialist, so a better person than you'll ever be, don't you know? Learn that. It helps.
(Note : I HATE cheats I really do, but stopping actual cheating is not the limit to Feck's "true faith", which is what he is about)
Re this (not feck :) "If Betfair could dis-invent in running they would"
Nonsense? BF exchange make their money on volume and throughput. It's irrelevant to them how or what as a business model.
If they could have 10000 people betting all day on the cubic volume of London Sewer Flow, it would make sense to open the market and "let it flow".
I/R is a good thing as it gives freedom to people who want to bet on it, and as long as managed fairly according to the rules, it IS a good thing.
In Running is where the mugs do their money at a far quicker rate and the shrewdies make their's.
In an ideal world for Betfair there would be no winners, just people who broke even and had their banks whittled away to zero by commission.
Looking at today's Man Utd vs Arsenal match. The mugs will be laying Man Utd at 2.38 and backing at 2.36. They'll lose just on the spread and commission. They'll lose at a nice slow rate if they did this sort of bet all the time. Also the winners will be winning at a nice slow rate so both are just what Betfair want.
In an ideal world for Betfair there would be no winners, just people who broke even and had their banks whittled away to zero by commission.
Looking at today's Man Utd vs Arsenal match. The mugs will be laying Man Utd at 2.38 and backing at 2.36. They'll lose just on the spread and commission. They'll lose at a nice slow rate if they did this sort of bet all the time. Also the winners will be winning at a nice slow rate so both are just what Betfair want.
I see my earlier post was deleted. I know I'm wasting my time anyway. Grab what you can while you can because as sure as hell you're destroying exchange betting. Ditto to those taking advantage of your marks for nomarks franchise sheme.
you can see the price , the amount offered , place your bet if you like the odds or don't .
One of the funniest posts ever on betfair. Harold clearly knows his stuff.
One of the funniest posts ever on betfair. Harold clearly knows his stuff.
99.99% of people that use betfair are happy with the way it works regarding placing bets .
your idea of an auction is not what 99.99% of people would want .
you seem to be moaning that you can't get on at the price you want .
we all want better odds than what we are offered , but as most say that the true chance of something happening is more accurate with betfair odds , stop moaning if the price is not what you would like it to be , just don't bet , is the point I was making
your idea of an auction is not what 99.99% of people would want .
you seem to be moaning that you can't get on at the price you want .
we all want better odds than what we are offered , but as most say that the true chance of something happening is more accurate with betfair odds , stop moaning if the price is not what you would like it to be , just don't bet , is the point I was making
"Grab what you can while you can because as sure as hell you're destroying exchange betting."
Being an old Etonian, former Young Conservative and an ex Investment Banker this is definitely not the case for me. I use my expert knowledge to back and lay on the same markets for just a couple of ticks and i know that I am providing valuable much-needed liquidity for betfair. I just feel that it's a massive travesty that I am charged this premium charge of 20% for my efforts.
It's an injustice I tell you.
Being an old Etonian, former Young Conservative and an ex Investment Banker this is definitely not the case for me. I use my expert knowledge to back and lay on the same markets for just a couple of ticks and i know that I am providing valuable much-needed liquidity for betfair. I just feel that it's a massive travesty that I am charged this premium charge of 20% for my efforts.
It's an injustice I tell you.
I'm sure that would be greeted with massive applause at the annual "guardian reader most irrelevant internet sockpuppet post" award, feck.
just checking , ann witt , I think you missed the point my hilarious post ( I think you need to get out more if you found it funny ) was making .
it was in comparison ann witt ( who is not feck , sure ) suggestion of auctions
it was in comparison ann witt ( who is not feck , sure ) suggestion of auctions
Harold my reply was to U.A, sorry, not you :) Ann IS feck, he doesn't even deny it now, it was obvious anyway.
Feck's auction idea is ridiculous. This entire thread I think was started BECAUSE I pointed out it was a ****ing non starter for in play on Ann/Fecks other thread about actions, so he started this new one to ask if people (who aren't cheating parasites in his angry bitter mind) bet on such markets ;)
Feck's auction idea is ridiculous. This entire thread I think was started BECAUSE I pointed out it was a ****ing non starter for in play on Ann/Fecks other thread about actions, so he started this new one to ask if people (who aren't cheating parasites in his angry bitter mind) bet on such markets ;)
ooh are you accusing me being feck. I think you're reading too much into this forum. I'm nothing to do with him. I'm just making a few light-hearted comments.
I'm afraid this is just a forum populated by people like myself who are either bored or have too much time on their hands. Many people love a good argument and generally bitching and being a bit aggressive it makes them feel like the big man and probably helps work off some of their suppressed anger.
Look feck knows that everyone knows that Ann is feck. He just doesn't want to admit it directly as he is probably concerned that he might lose his forum privileges.
Secret identities, sock puppets, forum orientated award ceremonies it's all very exciting but a bit much. It's just a forum.
I'm afraid this is just a forum populated by people like myself who are either bored or have too much time on their hands. Many people love a good argument and generally bitching and being a bit aggressive it makes them feel like the big man and probably helps work off some of their suppressed anger.
Look feck knows that everyone knows that Ann is feck. He just doesn't want to admit it directly as he is probably concerned that he might lose his forum privileges.
Secret identities, sock puppets, forum orientated award ceremonies it's all very exciting but a bit much. It's just a forum.
It's apology season U.A., and I sincerely offer you mine. Sorry :)
That's ok no problems. I've just cancelled my call to the forum mafia so it's all good!!
!!! Damn it I'dve already ordered Horse Head Sauce and scraped the worst of my dandruff off the pillow! :)
in case anyone's new to this, what ann feck-witt thinks is unfair is any system that isn't set up to give his superior knowledge of horses and style of betting maximum advantage. which is why, hilariously, he's argued that the way forward for betfair would be to hide prices.
in feck's world, it's "unfair" for someone to be able to see his price and lay a tick higher. that better price and smaller overround represents intolerable ferengi parasitism, you see.
if betfair implemented pretty much anything that feck suggests, the only positive would be that the current management would all be sacked within a month as the exchange went into cardiac arrest.
in feck's world, it's "unfair" for someone to be able to see his price and lay a tick higher. that better price and smaller overround represents intolerable ferengi parasitism, you see.
if betfair implemented pretty much anything that feck suggests, the only positive would be that the current management would all be sacked within a month as the exchange went into cardiac arrest.
If you want the pseudonym to work Feck,you need to drop the catchphrases- "ping pong","flies around ****", "shell and pea", etc.etc.
My response to viva's post has been deleted. I don't know why as most of it was cut and paste from a longish post I made on the 'bots all over the place' thread (page 4). Feck has never advocated hiding prices. As for the rest of your post viva why don't you address that post on the 'bots all over the place' thread if you think you've really got anything anti-feckfair to say.
I'm not female chatlame (neither is Feck who is not me). I've just got a pal who can't spell "and what" in Scottish.
You have just got a pal? I wished I would have only one friend. I envy you.
because I'm not interested in wasting my time with arguing with feck about lunatic ideas that'll never be implemented. taking a few seconds out to point out to others what ann utter hypocritical tool he is is the limit of my interest.
artie 11 Nov 13 15:31 Joined: 12 Sep 01 | Topic/replies: 3,114 | Blogger: artie's blog
If you want the pseudonym to work Feck,you need to drop the catchphrases- "ping pong","flies around ****", "shell and pea", etc.etc.
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you forgot stripey blazers
If you want the pseudonym to work Feck,you need to drop the catchphrases- "ping pong","flies around ****", "shell and pea", etc.etc.
________________
you forgot stripey blazers
You have just got a pal? I wished I would have only one friend. I envy you.
You mean you're not my pal? I thought I had reached two.
because I'm not interested in wasting my time with arguing with feck about lunatic ideas that'll never be implemented. taking a few seconds out to point out to others what ann utter hypocritical tool he is is the limit of my interest.
The forum's full of hypocritical tools who are devoid of logical argument. There's 39 pages of 'give the muggers a free lunch and the mugged will return in their droves' posts on the 'Premium charge must be scrapped' thread. How many of those posts did you waste your time posting? I put forward my argument on the 'bots all over the place' thread. Don't dress up the fact that you're unable to come up with any argument against it (aside from it doesn't suit your parasitic activities) as laziness when you spend so much of your time posting vacuous whinging rubbish.
You mean you're not my pal? I thought I had reached two.
because I'm not interested in wasting my time with arguing with feck about lunatic ideas that'll never be implemented. taking a few seconds out to point out to others what ann utter hypocritical tool he is is the limit of my interest.
The forum's full of hypocritical tools who are devoid of logical argument. There's 39 pages of 'give the muggers a free lunch and the mugged will return in their droves' posts on the 'Premium charge must be scrapped' thread. How many of those posts did you waste your time posting? I put forward my argument on the 'bots all over the place' thread. Don't dress up the fact that you're unable to come up with any argument against it (aside from it doesn't suit your parasitic activities) as laziness when you spend so much of your time posting vacuous whinging rubbish.
don't worry feck. nurse'll be along with a cup of cocoa in a bit.
Still no reply on the 'bots all over the place' thread viva? Have you no shame?
gave up on that thread when BJT started tw@tting on in it, not read what you wrote, not going to. what can you possibly have said that you haven's said a thousand times before?
you're a bore whose ideas rightly have zero chance of being listened to let alone implemented.
you're a bore whose ideas rightly have zero chance of being listened to let alone implemented.
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