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The Premium Charge is a legacy of Betfair's former management team and hopefully the new CEO has an open mind to it.
Following the 1st charge UK pre-play racing volume, which has been growing nicely, started to fall. This is a key market in terms of real commission. Even now racing makes up over 40% of exchange revenues.
Following the 2nd premium charge both revenues and amounts matched on everything bar in play sports (where millions are traded for very little revenue) have gone from growing year on year to flat lining. At the same time group revenue growth has stopped. This is after growth in the sportsbook and mobile channels.
Its not difficult to see why this is happening. Betfair has a monopoly in some markets. Where people have to use them e.g. to trade on a test match cricket or a tennis match inplay they over no other option. They either play here or stop totally. Where people can go elsewhere e.g. pre-race horses or football they will go elsewhere. The charge is simply too high.
The problem is where Betfair has a monopoly it is making a low margin (trading) and where it does not (when people want an actual bet) BF makes a higher margin. Betfair is losing its higher margin business.
An outright punter winning just over 2.5% on stakes will pay the 40% premium charge if he stakes enough. This is a very marginal system yet he still falls into the threshold.
Even if Betfair acted now they have lost so much good will. I used to do 100% of my betting on here. I have never even paid the charge but slowly I am moving my betting elsewhere. I need to keep my generate commission rate high so I avoid high margin bets on here. I use it for lower margin bets and trading that I could not do elsewhere.
I hope Betfair see sense. In 2008 the exchange was not broken. It was still growing both in revenues and amounts matched across all markets. They refused to settle for this growth and are now paying the price and must scrap the charge before its too late and the decline becomes terminal. Otherwise they will just be left with a second rate sportsbook and casino.
average daily matched all horseracing and non inplay sports year to date
Apr-07 £33,345,799
Apr-08 £45,879,142
Apr-09 £51,573,807 (1st PC 11/08)
Apr-10 £55,740,339
Apr-11 £61,204,673
Apr-12 £60,555,818 (2nd PC 06/11)
Oct-12 £61,014,819*
average daily group revenue year to date
Apr-03 £87,671
Apr-04 £186,301
Apr-05 £293,151
Apr-06 £400,000
Apr-07 £509,589
Apr-08 £668,493
Apr-09 £824,658 (1st PC 11/08)
Apr-10 £934,247
Apr-11 £1,076,712
Apr-12 £1,065,753 (2nd PC 06/11)
Oct-12 £1,090,217*
*averages half year
Following the 1st charge UK pre-play racing volume, which has been growing nicely, started to fall. This is a key market in terms of real commission. Even now racing makes up over 40% of exchange revenues.
Following the 2nd premium charge both revenues and amounts matched on everything bar in play sports (where millions are traded for very little revenue) have gone from growing year on year to flat lining. At the same time group revenue growth has stopped. This is after growth in the sportsbook and mobile channels.
Its not difficult to see why this is happening. Betfair has a monopoly in some markets. Where people have to use them e.g. to trade on a test match cricket or a tennis match inplay they over no other option. They either play here or stop totally. Where people can go elsewhere e.g. pre-race horses or football they will go elsewhere. The charge is simply too high.
The problem is where Betfair has a monopoly it is making a low margin (trading) and where it does not (when people want an actual bet) BF makes a higher margin. Betfair is losing its higher margin business.
An outright punter winning just over 2.5% on stakes will pay the 40% premium charge if he stakes enough. This is a very marginal system yet he still falls into the threshold.
Even if Betfair acted now they have lost so much good will. I used to do 100% of my betting on here. I have never even paid the charge but slowly I am moving my betting elsewhere. I need to keep my generate commission rate high so I avoid high margin bets on here. I use it for lower margin bets and trading that I could not do elsewhere.
I hope Betfair see sense. In 2008 the exchange was not broken. It was still growing both in revenues and amounts matched across all markets. They refused to settle for this growth and are now paying the price and must scrap the charge before its too late and the decline becomes terminal. Otherwise they will just be left with a second rate sportsbook and casino.
average daily matched all horseracing and non inplay sports year to date
Apr-07 £33,345,799
Apr-08 £45,879,142
Apr-09 £51,573,807 (1st PC 11/08)
Apr-10 £55,740,339
Apr-11 £61,204,673
Apr-12 £60,555,818 (2nd PC 06/11)
Oct-12 £61,014,819*
average daily group revenue year to date
Apr-03 £87,671
Apr-04 £186,301
Apr-05 £293,151
Apr-06 £400,000
Apr-07 £509,589
Apr-08 £668,493
Apr-09 £824,658 (1st PC 11/08)
Apr-10 £934,247
Apr-11 £1,076,712
Apr-12 £1,065,753 (2nd PC 06/11)
Oct-12 £1,090,217*
*averages half year
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No surprise, Gin. Promotion of the sportsbook and regulation issues around the world a much bigger effect on exchange liquidity than the Pc, in my opinion.
Virtually hiding the Exchange and not advertising the Exchange to potential new customers plus these results show that there is an increasing market gap in the Betting Industry waiting to be filled as Betfair morphs into Bet Flower.
Betfair has missed its opportunity.
This was to be the world's default betting site, with the best prices to begin with on multi-runner markets, then w/ the evolution of proprietary technology on football and US sports.
This ambition bit the dust around 2004 to 2005. The founders could see it, but the regulatory hdls were also going to be formidable and instead they 'settled' for cashing out by floating, pocketing something north of 100 million each.
Now the managers are absolutely not incentivised to pursue the dream--in fact, the reverse. The company, substantially owned on the stock exchange, was priced as if it were a poor middle-ranking sportsbook. Getting it re-rated so it's priced more in line with .65 rather than SidJames would constitute a massive success for the top mgmt team--it would mean 5-10 million each, a sum that wd reflect the difficulty, intensity and risk of their work compared to the founders. But there's no reason to think they wouldn't be well-pleased with this.
This was to be the world's default betting site, with the best prices to begin with on multi-runner markets, then w/ the evolution of proprietary technology on football and US sports.
This ambition bit the dust around 2004 to 2005. The founders could see it, but the regulatory hdls were also going to be formidable and instead they 'settled' for cashing out by floating, pocketing something north of 100 million each.
Now the managers are absolutely not incentivised to pursue the dream--in fact, the reverse. The company, substantially owned on the stock exchange, was priced as if it were a poor middle-ranking sportsbook. Getting it re-rated so it's priced more in line with .65 rather than SidJames would constitute a massive success for the top mgmt team--it would mean 5-10 million each, a sum that wd reflect the difficulty, intensity and risk of their work compared to the founders. But there's no reason to think they wouldn't be well-pleased with this.
The prob. for bf's winners is that the petty recreational pound loses 15p on the pound staked to poor-value fun multiples with a tiny chance of a life-changing win. They also pay for tea, warmth and television screen. The slightly better-off recreational pound is a 'deep-sea fish' tempted in by slightly less poor-value offers of cashbacks on scenarios they can imagine but not price.
In growing, bf have to appeal to these betting styles.
It wd be so much better for winners if the standard way to lose was to bet a significant portion of your salary and leak 2.5%, even to eventualities that seem exceptional or real hard-luck stories. But it's not.
To grow, bf needs an increasing share of the mindspace of the 98% of bettors that lose. This means a poor-value gambling product, misleading 'funny' advertising and a foothold in the consciousness of the losing punter and his mates. There is no incentive in improving things for anyone but these players and the huge turnover-high commission incumbent big liquidity providers i.e. not people who win selectively through any kind of judgment edge.
Winning punters need to look other than to an exchange model if they want to make a living long-term through betting. A low-margin huge-liquidity tote is a better bet.
In growing, bf have to appeal to these betting styles.
It wd be so much better for winners if the standard way to lose was to bet a significant portion of your salary and leak 2.5%, even to eventualities that seem exceptional or real hard-luck stories. But it's not.
To grow, bf needs an increasing share of the mindspace of the 98% of bettors that lose. This means a poor-value gambling product, misleading 'funny' advertising and a foothold in the consciousness of the losing punter and his mates. There is no incentive in improving things for anyone but these players and the huge turnover-high commission incumbent big liquidity providers i.e. not people who win selectively through any kind of judgment edge.
Winning punters need to look other than to an exchange model if they want to make a living long-term through betting. A low-margin huge-liquidity tote is a better bet.
Why don't Betfair implement the Premium Charge by Sport?
As it is, I have no incentive to explore markets in which I have little/no edge. This is surely counter-productive for them?
As it is, I have no incentive to explore markets in which I have little/no edge. This is surely counter-productive for them?
MARKY SPARKY DID YOU GET A BOW AND ARROW AS A PRESENT AT A VERY EARLY AGE
http://community.betfair.com/football/go/thread/view/94070/30303863/exclusiv...
Big profit rise, no movement on share price. Says a lot really.
Premium Charge payers had 'sweeteners' last season with no charge on rugby union and asian handicaps.I was under the impression there would be other such offers-does anyone know if anything else is likely in the near future?
they will only be making offers if the trial proved successful which it probably didn't the customers are leaving in droves now by looking at the horse racing markets i would say money matched now is about 1/3 of 3 years ago and declining fast.think betfair have cooked there goose
Sad days on Betfair - cannot blame customers for leaving with those sky high premium charges and unreliable exchange website.
Think they have lost sight of the fact that Gambling is not a necessity in life for the vast majority of people and the few that do bet will only use Betfair if there is a unique product offering better value than the market. (eg Exchange and better prices.)
Liquidity declining week by week = no longer best prices = customers spending money elsewhere.
Cannot see why Betfair Mgt don't care about this as the Exchange customers are not interested in the poor value Sportsbook.
If the Exchange closed tomorrow, nearly all the current Exchange customer base would severe all ties with Betfair and bet elsewhere.
No liquidity = no business
Betfair is now well down the road of self destruction and it is very sad.
Think they have lost sight of the fact that Gambling is not a necessity in life for the vast majority of people and the few that do bet will only use Betfair if there is a unique product offering better value than the market. (eg Exchange and better prices.)
Liquidity declining week by week = no longer best prices = customers spending money elsewhere.
Cannot see why Betfair Mgt don't care about this as the Exchange customers are not interested in the poor value Sportsbook.
If the Exchange closed tomorrow, nearly all the current Exchange customer base would severe all ties with Betfair and bet elsewhere.
No liquidity = no business
Betfair is now well down the road of self destruction and it is very sad.
it's not even an exchange. u can only get bets layed where betfair have their own bots in place. where they haven't nothing much gets matched.
I would be of the same opinion as you Westender but for the share price doing very well for several months now.If the picture is all doom and gloom why the share price increase?
Wait and see what happens to the share price 1 year from now if the Exchange liquidity continues to decline at the same rate.
Liquidity could easily collapse to current Betduck levels and all will be left is a small Sportsbook targeting small customers who already find better value online or in the betting shops.
Sad days
Liquidity could easily collapse to current Betduck levels and all will be left is a small Sportsbook targeting small customers who already find better value online or in the betting shops.
Sad days
The best thing about betfair was being able to trade. Now there's no liquidity you can't even do that any more. I can't even give bets away on side markets to trade out.
Sad days
Sad days
i guess betfair are the tesco of the gambling market place thought they had it all but the customers are telling them they have not the reaction by them will be to late imo
The Tesco analogy is a good one. I went to Sainsburys and spent £90 and they gave me a 10p off a litre for petrol coupon. I went to Tesco and spent a similar amount and it was worth 2p a litre. If I shop at Tesco I see half arsed offers like 10p off a £4 product. Tesco have taken their customers for granted and expected loyalty without having to compete for it just like Betfair have. Betfair's idea of an offer is a six month trial free of PC on a minority betting sport like rugby.
Somewhere along the line someone has really dropped the ball at Betfair. From an innovative product that had the bookies running for cover with a product that was going to revolutionise betting they have become a joke amongst their peers. Ten years a go I would have predicted that Betfair would be putting their competitors out of business as the older generation died off and the newly adult generation was more computer savvy. They should have concentrated on being the platform to bet rather than think they were the market. The mock funeral they held for traditional bookies must be embarrassing for them now as they strive to become a second rate sportsbook rather than a first rate exchange.
They must know PC has been a disaster as they throttle the life out of the exchange and a customer base that one loved them now hates them. No one at Betfair has the balls to tackle this problem head on and they'd rather bury their heads in the sand and continue to squeeze the life out of the golden goose rather than try and nurse it back to health.
I don't take any interest in the share price or profits but I'm amazed to hear they're holding up. I should go short on them because the brand in reality now is a pile of smelly stuff and not the innovative company it once was. Perhaps the city and the investors haven't realised this yet because it's certainly no Facebook or Google.
Somewhere along the line someone has really dropped the ball at Betfair. From an innovative product that had the bookies running for cover with a product that was going to revolutionise betting they have become a joke amongst their peers. Ten years a go I would have predicted that Betfair would be putting their competitors out of business as the older generation died off and the newly adult generation was more computer savvy. They should have concentrated on being the platform to bet rather than think they were the market. The mock funeral they held for traditional bookies must be embarrassing for them now as they strive to become a second rate sportsbook rather than a first rate exchange.
They must know PC has been a disaster as they throttle the life out of the exchange and a customer base that one loved them now hates them. No one at Betfair has the balls to tackle this problem head on and they'd rather bury their heads in the sand and continue to squeeze the life out of the golden goose rather than try and nurse it back to health.
I don't take any interest in the share price or profits but I'm amazed to hear they're holding up. I should go short on them because the brand in reality now is a pile of smelly stuff and not the innovative company it once was. Perhaps the city and the investors haven't realised this yet because it's certainly no Facebook or Google.
The existing Premium Charge has been unchanged now for some time and will surely need addressing soon.They are universally unpopular,difficult to understand and various trigger points(when 20%,40%,50%,60%kick in)will surely need to be reviewed.Assuming Betfair now needs this profit stream to maintain its balance sheet I put forward a different method to achieve this and at the same time boost the interest in the exchange.I suggest the following as a starting point for discussion-
-Scrap the term Premium Charge
-Scrap the Premium Charge
-Introduce 2 rates of commision charge
-Standard rate commision for normal customers(discount rates would cease)
-Higher rate for customers with a lifetime profit above a certain figure
-Make these changes with a major advertising campaign
I would suggest the standard rate be something similar to the existing,possibly slightly lower with discount rates ceasing.The higher rate could be below 10% and apply to all customers with lifetime profits above £20000.There would be only 2 different charges for customers.
The above would replace all existing charges and simplify the existing mess.I am sure this is too simplistic to be introduced and I am sure you will be able to give many reasons why.I don't think 'Premium Charges' will ever be scrapped but am sure a much simpler and fairer system could be introduced which would be easily understood by all.I cannot believe Betfair have allowed the existing arrangements and widespread confusion over the Premium Charge to have remained in place for so long.
-Scrap the term Premium Charge
-Scrap the Premium Charge
-Introduce 2 rates of commision charge
-Standard rate commision for normal customers(discount rates would cease)
-Higher rate for customers with a lifetime profit above a certain figure
-Make these changes with a major advertising campaign
I would suggest the standard rate be something similar to the existing,possibly slightly lower with discount rates ceasing.The higher rate could be below 10% and apply to all customers with lifetime profits above £20000.There would be only 2 different charges for customers.
The above would replace all existing charges and simplify the existing mess.I am sure this is too simplistic to be introduced and I am sure you will be able to give many reasons why.I don't think 'Premium Charges' will ever be scrapped but am sure a much simpler and fairer system could be introduced which would be easily understood by all.I cannot believe Betfair have allowed the existing arrangements and widespread confusion over the Premium Charge to have remained in place for so long.
But you also need to address courtsiders and fast picture players. They need to be paying at least 60% not 10%.
What makes it really unfair is the number of big winners dodging the charges 
Aug 22, 2014 -- 7:09AM, Westender wrote:
Wait and see what happens to the share price 1 year from now if the Exchange liquidity continues to decline at the same rate.Liquidity could easily collapse to current Betduck levels and all will be left is a small Sportsbook targeting small customers who already find better value online or in the betting shops.Sad days
Didn't realise it was that time of year again.
Betfair - "a year from disaster since 2008"
Percentage wise I probably bet the smallest amount compared with any prior year. If they dropped commission to 0% and charged more customers PC I would bet way more.
THE COMMISSION MUST BE SCRAPPED
I'm getting closer to paying it (best guess November/December time) but like a lot of you the biggest bugbear at the moment rather than the actual charge is the dramatic decline on liquidity on so many markets that the premium charge and its chain reaction has caused 
A lot of the loss of liquidity is almost certainly nothing to do with PC charges. As far as I can see, there is far less money from your average punter coming into the markets.
international betfair customers have had commission raised with some being charged up to 7.5%.
The market base rate specified in the 'Rules' tab in the 'full market view' of a market is as follows:
For customers resident in the UK, Ireland, Italy, Gibraltar, Malta, and Denmark the default market base rate is 5%
For customers resident in Albania, Armenia, Croatia, Monaco, Serbia & Montenegro, and Slovakia the default Market Base Rate is 7%
For customers resident in all other countries the default Market base Rate is 6.5%
For customers resident in the UK, Ireland, Italy, Gibraltar, Malta, and Denmark the default market base rate is 5%
For customers resident in Albania, Armenia, Croatia, Monaco, Serbia & Montenegro, and Slovakia the default Market Base Rate is 7%
For customers resident in all other countries the default Market base Rate is 6.5%
Surely its only a matter of time before we see a tiny increase in UK based commission. I wouldnt be surprised to see 5.5%-6% basic in a few months.
More like only a matter of time before a well funded new entrant comes into the market with a more innovative peer to peer betting product.
Fail to meet the needs of customers at the right price will result in the customer base disappearing en masse when a better product or service appears at a more reasonable price.
Only a matter of time now.
Fail to meet the needs of customers at the right price will result in the customer base disappearing en masse when a better product or service appears at a more reasonable price.
Only a matter of time now.
westender a few points for you
: how can a product be better , more innovative than what we have at betfair ?
: there already is another exchange with cheaper pricing , why is no one moving over there to use it ?
: the PC charge will never be removed , it may be restructured as in pricing terms , but you will be effectively paying the same .
if you pay PC , you can telephone them and discuss anything you are worried about or dislike , but you will be basically told that there are no plans to remove it ( no matter what is said on here as to how it is affecting the markets/liquidity or any valid/good points made on here )
: how can a product be better , more innovative than what we have at betfair ?
: there already is another exchange with cheaper pricing , why is no one moving over there to use it ?
: the PC charge will never be removed , it may be restructured as in pricing terms , but you will be effectively paying the same .
if you pay PC , you can telephone them and discuss anything you are worried about or dislike , but you will be basically told that there are no plans to remove it ( no matter what is said on here as to how it is affecting the markets/liquidity or any valid/good points made on here )
That is what the bookmakers thought before Andrew Black launched Betfair.
Those businesses that stand still are going backwards and will eventually be obsolete when a new innovative business appears in the market. Technology is advancing relentlessly with time and the next 'Betfair'
Betfair and Betduck will be left behind as neither are meeting customer needs or as you state acting on customer feedback.
Those business that fail to listen and/or provide what customers want have no long term future.
Only a matter of time
Those businesses that stand still are going backwards and will eventually be obsolete when a new innovative business appears in the market. Technology is advancing relentlessly with time and the next 'Betfair'
Betfair and Betduck will be left behind as neither are meeting customer needs or as you state acting on customer feedback.
Those business that fail to listen and/or provide what customers want have no long term future.
Only a matter of time
The next 'Betfair' whatever it is called will be far superior to anything in the current market.
I'd like to agree with Westender. I do agree with Harold Lloyd.
Big gap in the market now with a grossly dissatisfied customer base at Betfair and Betduck - it will be filled.
Only a matter of time
Only a matter of time
westender , the only thing people are not happy about with betduck is no liquidity .
the only thing people are unhappy about with betfair is PC .
true , if there was another company that could rival betfair for liquidity , all or most PC payers would move , leaving this place with not much liquidity , which in turn would mean recreational players won't place a bet here , which means a downward spiral . but it is not happening at the moment and given that betduck have had ample opportunity maybe it wont happen until china ,india , or America open there markets for exchange betting .
the only thing people are unhappy about with betfair is PC .
true , if there was another company that could rival betfair for liquidity , all or most PC payers would move , leaving this place with not much liquidity , which in turn would mean recreational players won't place a bet here , which means a downward spiral . but it is not happening at the moment and given that betduck have had ample opportunity maybe it wont happen until china ,india , or America open there markets for exchange betting .
What don't you use Matchbook and Smarkets? Same or better odds and less commission.
I like Matchbook but they desperately need to add more markets. They don't even have To qualify for tonight's champions league ties.
Betduck have failed to increase the range of markets hence the lack of people switching over.
Think what Betfair have failed to realise is that only a small percentage of people are into betting and these people can very easily spend their money elsewhere on other gambling or non gambling activities.
That leaves Betfair with a continuous shrinking business and reach a stage when it will no longer be viable.
The small standalone BetSquare Sportsbook will be all that is left.
Think what Betfair have failed to realise is that only a small percentage of people are into betting and these people can very easily spend their money elsewhere on other gambling or non gambling activities.
That leaves Betfair with a continuous shrinking business and reach a stage when it will no longer be viable.
The small standalone BetSquare Sportsbook will be all that is left.
westender , I doubt it is lack of markets , people that bet on horses only need win and place markets , on betduck there is money pre race , so long as the odds you want are below that of on here , but in-running there is not much money .
so it is liquidity that rules , and that is only found here as people over the years have bots etc set up which provides it .
so it is liquidity that rules , and that is only found here as people over the years have bots etc set up which provides it .
Liquidity is no different to flies attracted to a pile of grit.
When a new pile appears that is fresher than the stale pile in existence, the flies all move.
Only a matter of time.
When a new pile appears that is fresher than the stale pile in existence, the flies all move.
Only a matter of time.
The problem with that statement, Westender, is that if you trawl back far enough you'll see the same almost word for word from about 2008......
Understand mate but Betfair's business and customer goodwill has increasingly declined month by month since 2008.
New entrants will find it much easier to gain a significant market share now or with every passing month as Betfair popularity continues to decline.
Look at the decline in market share for the Apple IPhone and IPad to see that those who become complacent struggle badly when new products arrive in the market.
Betfair has had it easy so far and only a matter of time before the increasing gap in the market is filled.
New entrants will find it much easier to gain a significant market share now or with every passing month as Betfair popularity continues to decline.
Look at the decline in market share for the Apple IPhone and IPad to see that those who become complacent struggle badly when new products arrive in the market.
Betfair has had it easy so far and only a matter of time before the increasing gap in the market is filled.
Most people understand that Betfair need customers far more than customers need Betfair as there is a plethora of other betting and non betting activities to spend our money.
Gambling is not a life necessity for 99.999999% of the population.
We all survived pre Betfair and the world will not end post Betfair.
Gambling is not a life necessity for 99.999999% of the population.
We all survived pre Betfair and the world will not end post Betfair.
but it is not happening at the moment and given that betduck have had ample opportunity maybe it wont happen until china ,india , or America open there markets for exchange betting .
I thought India was one of the biggest customers of Betfair after UK punters.
I thought India was one of the biggest customers of Betfair after UK punters.
INDIA? gambling is frowned up by muslims and sikhs
what makes me laugh is the that everyone says betfiar days are numbered, including me, but their share price says they're going nowhere, that's the reality so our rants are pointless, as our ideas
what makes me laugh is the that everyone says betfiar days are numbered, including me, but their share price says they're going nowhere, that's the reality so our rants are pointless, as our ideas
if you look on Alexa for Betfair percentage of visitors and rank in country:
United Kingdom 34.7% (133)
India 7.1% (1,963)
Portugal 4.3% (184)
Russia 3.5% (2,341)
Brazil 3.5% (1,423)
United Kingdom 34.7% (133)
India 7.1% (1,963)
Portugal 4.3% (184)
Russia 3.5% (2,341)
Brazil 3.5% (1,423)
i didn't realise that frog .
so is it legal in india to use betfair ?
so is it legal in india to use betfair ?
I thought Betfair applied for a license in Sikkim before it was shelved. It is a grey market. If you look at the amount of turnover on IPL games (£25m average) I think its fair to say money is filtering through from the massive Indian market for cricket.
Massive amounts of money on cricket matches in India and Pakistan, clearly moved by money over there. Hansie Cronje's black market bookmaker was Indian. There's a massive market for betting in the subcontinent.
Matchbook are Betfairs main competitor, they have good liquidity and low commission rates, however their operating platform needs more investment,as well as more markets. why pay 20 / 40 / 60 percent on winnings when you can pay 1 percent elsewhere. I am using them much more, and actually feel like a winner when i win, whilst not having to keep watching how much commission i am generating and how much i am going to give betfair each week.
Saying this, i believe a workable charge for using the betfair service is more than reasonable, however 40+ percentage P/C on winning weeks and a zero rebate policy, has caused, and will continue to cause the existing betfair customer base to bet elsewhere.
Saying this, i believe a workable charge for using the betfair service is more than reasonable, however 40+ percentage P/C on winning weeks and a zero rebate policy, has caused, and will continue to cause the existing betfair customer base to bet elsewhere.
Think Betfair need to understand that people can spend their money elsewehere on betting or non betting activities.
If my local pub decided to up the price of a pint from £4 o £40 then it would result in nearly all the customers drinking elsewehere and it would close.
Betfair is on this path to closure and only a matter of time before a 'new pub' appears providing a better service at reasonable prices.
If my local pub decided to up the price of a pint from £4 o £40 then it would result in nearly all the customers drinking elsewehere and it would close.
Betfair is on this path to closure and only a matter of time before a 'new pub' appears providing a better service at reasonable prices.
NO LIQUIDITY= NO BET is the ethos of the serious money punters.Shame they are leaving everyday.
How come Matchbook doesn't get ****ed out by betfair whereas Bet-duck does if you spell it in it's proper way.
I don't like the fact no amounts matched are shown on MB. Also the 1% is on turnover not gross win per market so cannot compare prices.
I had a quick look last night and like someone else said I was disappointed in the lack of markets. For example tomorrow's 4th ODI between England and India had literally just the match odds market. Betquack also fails in this area although at least it does have more than matchbook.
frog, they do commission per market as apposed to turnover, all you have to do is ask 
If that is the case they should it make it more clear on their site.
They state time after time that you pay 1% commission on every
bet (both winning and losing).
They state time after time that you pay 1% commission on every
bet (both winning and losing).
I don't know why bf cannot increase the charging period from a week to say a month. This would help to stop people paying PC on winnings which they lose the next week, often before the PC has even been taken. Obviously some kind of rebate system would be even better.
12% adjusted revenue increase announced for Q1. Going down the pan.
On India, I would guess they bet probably double the UK betting volume in a year. You should read Bookie, Gambler, Fixer, Spy. Not the best written book but I found no reason to doubt the majority of claims. The bit about spot fixing is especially interesting if you bet cricket markets.
On India, I would guess they bet probably double the UK betting volume in a year. You should read Bookie, Gambler, Fixer, Spy. Not the best written book but I found no reason to doubt the majority of claims. The bit about spot fixing is especially interesting if you bet cricket markets.
Also, Westender, if your local pub takes 1,000 customer in a week and they put the price of your pint up to £40, 9 people to £20 and the rest pay the same price, do you think the other 990 people would care and stop going? Or if every week you found so much change on the floor that you left with £60 for every pint, would the careless people whose change you were taking be sad to see you stop frequenting the establishment?
Sep 1, 2014 -- 3:29AM, cdog wrote:
How come Matchbook doesn't get ****ed out by betfair whereas Bet-duck does if you spell it in it's proper way.
They prob think it's a dating site
Liquidity is dire Betfair should at least throw premium charge payers a bone and things might pick up
yes it's worth a look http://www.gruss-software.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8562
This post is from December 2013, I'm a slow reader ;-)
"Market makers put many hours of research into creating / establishing the markets with liquidity; whereas the bots just feed of that hard work and yet stil pay the same P/C rates, (other than requests of course)."
Bots can be massively demanding of time and require intellect equal to other approaches to getting on. Anyone with any doubt this should try writing one themselves. The means to create bots provides ordinary punters with an extraordinary level of flexibility.
"Market makers put many hours of research into creating / establishing the markets with liquidity; whereas the bots just feed of that hard work and yet stil pay the same P/C rates, (other than requests of course)."
Bots can be massively demanding of time and require intellect equal to other approaches to getting on. Anyone with any doubt this should try writing one themselves. The means to create bots provides ordinary punters with an extraordinary level of flexibility.
Have to agree that market makers should be rewarded for seeding,without them you have nothing,i´m not sure arbers,traders or bot users should receive much assistance,with that said, i do believe the PC is unethical,lets face it,real professionals bet on the Asians!!
Betfair spent the early years gaining traction,upping the numbers,then came the leveraging through the additition of parallels,last but not least came the dismantling,moving away from roots in order to increase profits,Betfairs share price would suggest they failed,in becoming just another gaming company they lost focus!
Betfair spent the early years gaining traction,upping the numbers,then came the leveraging through the additition of parallels,last but not least came the dismantling,moving away from roots in order to increase profits,Betfairs share price would suggest they failed,in becoming just another gaming company they lost focus!
Anyone willing to offer a price that the Premium Charge as we know it will be dead and buried by the end of 2015???
It won't go away but desperately needs changes.The starting points for the various payments are a bit like the stamp duty on houses,in need of a fundamental change.Only thing is,any changes are likely to be with a view to increasing profits.Would expect changes sooner rather than later but am not expecting good news.
Yep, no chance. As long as major events/main markets see good liquidity, there's something for them to Price Rush for mug punters to then Cash Out.
the 250k threshold for at least 40% gets more ridiculous every year
Evens! Q100 offered 1000/1.
Charging on withdrawing money (for the old premium charge payers) is flawed in terms of keeping up quarterly earnings.
In terms of boosting liquidity for the exchange and the sportsbook it is a genius idea. I guess it just depends how long the current CEO is in power for. Will the change pay off in time for him to get his golden handshake?
Charging on withdrawing money (for the old premium charge payers) is flawed in terms of keeping up quarterly earnings.
In terms of boosting liquidity for the exchange and the sportsbook it is a genius idea. I guess it just depends how long the current CEO is in power for. Will the change pay off in time for him to get his golden handshake?
Charging on withdrawing money seems a much better idea than
what I was thinking of.
what I was thinking of.
The reality is if the PC players were charged 40-60% on taking money out of the system liquidity would explode. There is only a certain amount of money people need to take out to live off.
The idea of being able to roll up profits 'tax free' would surely lead to a massive boost in liquidity.
Remember the PC was designed to stop people taking too much out of the system too quickly not to tax them so hard they either just churned the main markets or gave up.
If the money stays in Betfair its a win/win for the exchange, the punters and the sportsbook.
The idea of being able to roll up profits 'tax free' would surely lead to a massive boost in liquidity.
Remember the PC was designed to stop people taking too much out of the system too quickly not to tax them so hard they either just churned the main markets or gave up.
If the money stays in Betfair its a win/win for the exchange, the punters and the sportsbook.
But most of the PC payers are traders who don't win that much,
and probably already play to their maximums.
and probably already play to their maximums.
I know they are keen on changing the PC,and your idea is much
better than the one I've received from HQ.
better than the one I've received from HQ.
Not sure I agree with charging on withdrawing. Its PR slogan might as well be "winners not welcome".
JML 08 Dec 14 21:58 Joined: 10 May 05 | Topic/replies: 714 | Blogger: JML's blog
I know they are keen on changing the PC,and your idea is much
better than the one I've received from HQ.
What have they proposed?
I know they are keen on changing the PC,and your idea is much
better than the one I've received from HQ.
What have they proposed?
So the Premium Charge hasn't been scrapped, and Betfair exchange is still here? Who'd have thought.
Gave up betting on this site since I became a PC customer, miss it for weeks like this, having money in the account and dabbling with Cheltenham adding some mug money to those markets. Could bet on daq but never have money there, no liquidity in markets I play.
Cheers betfair.
Cheers betfair.
Do the high rate premium payers benefit the 20% payers more than if there was no premium charge for the 20%ers ?
If the high raters leave the site then the field should become less competitive right ?
If the high raters leave the site then the field should become less competitive right ?
We now see a plethora of empty boxes in most markets on a daily basis with Bot prices not even being nibbled.
Can only be a matter of time before the Bots get bored and switch off.
Can only be a matter of time before the Bots get bored and switch off.
The Premium Charge definitely needs to be scrapped before a week on Wednesday because as of today I am paying it on profits earned, finally been caught in the net
Betfair need to throw exchange users a bone. They don't seem to understand winners on here have costs beyond the premium charge, so eventually as the game gets harder and harder and profits go down it becomes not worth carrying on. Or perhaps quiet days are harder so they skip the hard days and the liquidity issue gets worse and the downward spiral continues.
thefear , betfair are not interested in your profits , only their own .
liquidity may be down in some markets , some big players/PC payers may have left , but their share price is doing very well .
there is no need to change anything in the eyes of betfair .
liquidity may be down in some markets , some big players/PC payers may have left , but their share price is doing very well .
there is no need to change anything in the eyes of betfair .
Pablo, I think the chief exec is concentrating on the sportsbook and will turn his attention to the exchange at some stage. My point is that if he doesn't hurry up the exchange will have already been declared dead and the life-support machine switched off.
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