General Betting
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Can someone explain in very simple terms how this works.
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Replies: 63
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Basically Betfair will rob you , bet elsewhere would be my advice.
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a) no, because it's not simple
b) if you're making 10K a month you should nevertheless be able to figure it out. |
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OK Here is an example - if you are good enough to make 10k GROSS per month and are on 50% PC you will pay Bet"fair" between 52 and 53%of your GROSS winnings in PC and commission - So on 10k you could pay £5300 to Bet"fair". That leaves you £4700 profit less any expenses you incur to make the GROSS profit. So for instance track players on horse racing paying £1k a week to access live pictures would be left with £700 a month!!
Don't forget if you win 10k week 1 and lose 10k week 2 you are actually £5300 down over the 2 weeks  |
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Profit 10,000
Commission (300) Gross Profit 9,700 Courtsider fees (4,000) Internet, Tech, API and Satellite fees (300) Subs (50) Premium Charge @60% (5,850) Net Profit (500) |
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^^^ ????
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Or...
Profit 20,000 Commission (500) Gross Profit 19,500 Courtsider fees (6,000) Internet, Tech, API and Satellite fees (300) Subs (50) Premium Charge @60% (11,750) Net Profit 1,400 Less opportunity cost: Missed earnings from employment (3,000) Forfeiture of pension entitlements (300) Bank Interest (100) Alternative net profit (2,000) |
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Or...
Profit 30,000 Commission (600) Gross Profit 29,400 Courtsider fees (8,000) Internet, Tech, API and Satellite fees (300) Subs (50) Premium Charge @60% (17,700) Net Profit 3,350 Less opportunity cost: Missed earnings from employment (3,000) Forfeiture of pension entitlements (300) Bank Interest (100) Alternative net profit (50) Basically you need to make over 30k a month to make it pay  |
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Spot on clyde.
Thats why its gone downhill,i and plenty others have just got sick of it and found other ways to to play. I said when the tax was first implemented that it would hurt everyone in some way. Its just about killed the exchange,well done betunfair. |
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The feeling when you win with others instead of betunfair is is unreal.
Its yours no trying to work out how much you are going to draw.100 win at 5 returns you a monkey not aprox 250,the pc is a disgrace and could well be found unlawfull in time. There is a law firm that is ready to start a class action to challenge the charge ,so there is a chance that all who have had money taken away by betunfair will get it back.Just like the banks had to payback. |
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Why do you assume that when someone says they make £10k a month, they're talking about gross profit? Realistically, they're talking about profit after commission. They look at their balance at the start of the next month and find they have £10,000 more money in it.
Now, we can't work out their premium charge because we just don't know how much they bet in that month, how much commission they paid, and so on. Worst case scenario: they won £10k in a single bet, paying 5% commission, and they can expect to pay another £5.5k in PC. Or, they could have paid thousands in commission over many many bets, and have nothing more to pay. |
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The question was premium charge on 10k a month profit and premium charge is calculated on gross not net profits.
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Plus my examples assume no losing markets to simplify things (in reality it makes little difference) so gross and net profits in Betfair language are virtually the same.
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I wish my losing markets made little difference...
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Plus my examples assume no losing markets to simplify things (in reality it makes little difference) so gross and net profits in Betfair language are virtually the same.
Eh? Surely not. |
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Profit 10,000 = Betfair Gross Profit
Commission (300) Gross Profit 9,700 = Betfair Net Profit Difference = 3% so whether someone is winning 10k gross or 9.7k net and not 10k net, when premium charge is calculated gross is pedantic imho. A thousand pounds worth of losses per a thousand pounds of net winnings saves me less than 2% so I'm keeping things simple by assuming no losses. ......................... Best example would be a footballer's salary. Whether Carlos Tevez is earning £10.3 million a year or £10 million a year, in terms of a news story it's incidental to the story. |
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Well, as Mr Magoo says, it depends on whether £10k/month means £10k after Betfair's commission. If so, then the ratio of wins to losses is critical to determining PC.
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If I bought some stickers to complete my 1970 World Cup album at a cost of £200, the £1.50 postage and packing is critical to determine the total cost. Imagine then if I went down the pub and told my friend that the stickers cost me £200 and my friend then said what about postage and packing I would be banging my head against the wall.
It's hardly a big issue to someone earning 10k a month (net or gross of initial commission) who is on super PC of 60%. Maybe they'll save an average of £100 to £200 a month, so instead of paying 5.8k they'll be paying 5.6 to 5.7k in premium charges. |
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If in a particular month, a 1970 World Cup sticker collecting super PC (60%) payer on the 2% commission rate made a £10000 net profit by winning £1020408 gross and losing £990000 equally distributed over each of the weeks, no PC would be applicable.
Whilst he wouldn't pay any PC over that particular period he could still reasonably be described as a super PC payer based on his previous payments and lifetime profile. |
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and if Dwain Chambers completed his 1970 World Cup sticker collection and improved his 100m time by 0.5 secs he would be favourite to beat Usain Bolt at this years World Championships.
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It's hardly a big issue to someone earning 10k a month (net or gross of initial commission) who is on super PC of 60%. Maybe they'll save an average of £100 to £200 a month, so instead of paying 5.8k they'll be paying 5.6 to 5.7k in premium charges.
You clearly don't understand the way that PC is calculated. |
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and if my aunty had wheels she'd be a trolley, to quote barry glendining.
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How much would you expect Betfair to be entitled to take?
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Betfair doesn't want you guys, you are
sucking too much of the money in circulation, and putting very little back. How much should they(BF) be taking in your opinion? |
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Contrarian I know exactly how the PC is calculated. Indeed I am probably in a minority of one, in so far as Betfair were calculating premium charge incorrectly, and it's down to my intervention that got them to admit (to me) this was the case and recalculate it.
Someone earning 10k net on 60% PC will bet in a way similar to this: gross winning markets 20,833 commission at 4%....less 833 losing markets...less 10,000 net winnings..........10,000 gross winnings........10,833 commission generated.....567 (833/2 + (10k * 0.015)) premium charge due ....5,933 if he had no losing markets as follows: gross winning markets 10,417 commission at 4%....less 417 net winnings..........10,000 gross winnings........10,417 commission generated.....208 premium charge due ....6,042 i.e. it makes £109 difference (ok in reality slightly more as his basic commission would be higher with less overall turnover) per £10k's worth of losing markets, if he has approximately twice as many winning markets as losing markets. Imo that makes my guesstimate based on gut feeling of between a 100-200 quid saving spot on. |
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Where did this magic figure of £10k worth of losses come from? Seems to have been plucked out of thin air.
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It's not out of thin air Mr Magoo. It was a guesstimate based on experience and knowledge. You can quantify it though, so out of interest you think it's too high or too low?
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As Mr Magoo says, why do you assume such small losses?
Admittedly, if this is a 60% PC payer, then it is possible that they may (still) be generating very little commission - although I would assume that anyone bright enough to be paying 60% PC in the first place ought to be able to work out that a little bit of (artifically induced) volatility would do wonders for their PC bill (and eventually shift them down to 50/40%. However, I thought the original discussion was just about someone earning £10k/month, and that that person might be on 40%, say. Many people fitting this profile will be actively pursuing highly inefficient break even/marginally profitable strategies in order to achieve their monthly £10k by, say, winning a total of £100k (after commission), and losing 90k. This would reduce their average PC bill from c. £3800 c. £1550. |
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To be fair it wasn't just a guesstimate. It made the calculation round and easier and it felt about right. If I'd thought about it a bit more I'd have realised it was a little bit out.
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**should read: "reduce their average PC bill from c. £3800 to c. £1550
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I'll answer it for you. In my example the commission generated is 5.23% and the threshold is 5% so the 10k figure is too high. Close though
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although I would assume that anyone bright enough to be paying 60% PC in the first place ought to be able to work out that a little bit of (artifically induced) volatility would do wonders for their PC bill
2 points. Firstly, you assume wrongly. I know a few (potential and actual) and they can't work it out. Secondly, it wouldn't be a little bit, it would be a hell of a lot. |
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Also in a lot of cases even if they did get it, it just isn't practical.
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But why are we discussing 60% payers anyway?
However, I thought the original discussion was just about someone earning £10k/month, and that that person might be on 40%, say. Many people fitting this profile will be actively pursuing highly inefficient break even/marginally profitable strategies in order to achieve their monthly £10k by, say, winning a total of £100k (after commission), and losing 90k. This would reduce their average PC bill from c. £3800 c. £1550. |
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My example was from the perspective of a 60% payer and was meant to be amusing anecdotally to an opening post that deserved such an answer, and also to make people think including myself. It was actually loosely based on someone, although the examples of their costs are all made up, they kind of fit with something he said to me. Which was that if PC was 70% he'd have to quit and he has made/makes huge amounts by most people's standards.
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Fair enough, but that is merely one very unrepresentative example (a mindless hooverer, apparently) of a PC player.
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what about the successful ones who have paid £350k commission and because they've won over 250k in their "lifetime" they have to pay a minimum of 40% often more......is a 10 yr spell to win 250k realistic?? it's only 500 a week??
why does any new account only pay 20% regardless of commission generated to gross profits?? why is the no of yrs one has played or the fact one might be full time or part time not taken into account oe working expenses not factored in it's BULL S&&&T we now it and so do betfair...... |
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it's basically an abuse of monopoly power - monopoly because **** is rubbish to poor for in running.....if it wasn't betfair would be history!!!! FACT
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in todays climate of zero on and off course betting tax, why has the premium charge not been tackled by the media?
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