HOW LONG CAN BETFAIR KEEP TAXING

Well, I hope it's not the end of P2P betting ... but the signs are certainly there.

I'm a fairly late arrival on the scene and I'm really struggling to make any headway even without Premium Charges. But from what I've read on here it seems that the PC was the beginning of the rot. It's as if they've become hell-bent on killing the proverbial goose. They're behaving more and more like the banks. They've bought into a greed-is-good philosophy and have destroyed the goodwill that seems to have once existed with their older customers.

Very sad indeed. Because the original concept of P2P punting was the greatest thing that has ever happened to the gambling industry.

that want happens when you have share holders to please ...greed profit greed bigger profit ..the customer ( punter) is just a money making machine

The sad thing about the Premium Charge is the scare factor.The ones who pay it will continue to pay it if they have a big enough advantage but the rest give up trying to win because they couldnt win with the premium charge.Its like the bookies limiting/restricting punters,the ones who keep winning will open new accounts etc and keep finding ways around it but the dream has gone for the smaller punter to make a living from gambling so they give up and end up spending their money on something else instead.Sad but true.

Totally agree middleman

Where is the motivation for the new customers when they know even in the slim chance they can be successful, they are going to be hammered with charges?
Why put the work in? Might as well go out and enjoy yourself.

If PC had been in place 10 years ago I doubt I'd be here now and I know for certain I would not be full time

I couldn't personally invest in Betfair but the share price remains robust enough under a very challenging economic and regulatory backdrop.  I suspect they felt forced to increase charges because of short term pressures on revenues and profits because of the challenging business environment they face.  It's hard to see how they can increase charges again (other than to lower the threshold below £250k and I imagine that doesnt bring in much) so they have to focus on growing and keeping the business now rather than on getting more out of the business they've already got.  It will be difficult.

I think the BF shareprice has lost about 1/3 of its value in the last year. . . Cant see who would buy shares in BF at the moment doesnt take a genius to see where its heading, incredible really considering they have a virtual monopoly. . .

Currently its £6.82.  Over the last 18 months its highest is £8.92 in that period and its lowest £5.71.  At the time of the PC3 announcement it was £8.50ish and it hasnt been over £10 for 2 years.  Thats robust enough

curlywurly 18 Jan 13 17:32 Joined: 08 Jun 00 | Topic/replies: 1,762 | Blogger: curlywurly's blog
Totally agree middleman

Where is the motivation for the new customers when they know even in the slim chance they can be successful, they are going to be hammered with charges?
Why put the work in? Might as well go out and enjoy yourself.

If PC had been in place 10 years ago I doubt I'd be here now and I know for certain I would not be full time
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hi curly.  wouldnt mind a chat sometime about how you are getting on and also just wanted to ask you

a couple of things that you might be interested in. dunno if you have still have my email or phone number?

groomer

I sent you a message callataxi

I actually think there's scope for bf to put their basic tax up, maybe by having starting comm. at 6%.

Their rivals the online bookies no longer look to horses or really sports for growth and are benefiting from a permissive regulatory environment with their moneyspinners, the FOBTs. Over half group profit for some estates comes from the machines.

The bookies are being clobbered with media rights fees from courses and costs for two racing broadcasters. Wd they stop growing if they imposed some kind of betting tax or transaction fee on betting on horses, trying to get punters onto virtually any other kind of punting?

This wd kill off the few arbers that make up part of their volume on early price horses and result in their having a horse betting population almost identical to the fruit machines players.

Meanwhile bf wd be the only game left in town for horse players, with acceptable late volume and arguably trader-friendly pricing at higher comm.

What's this £5 charge to see vidoes all about?  What have I missed please people?

been like that for a few months shirley


Betfair Customer Services 24 Aug 12 11:08 
Planned changes to Betfair’s live video service are due to take effect as of the 28th of August. All races subject to a bet before view qualifying stake will increase from £2 to £5 (or currency equivalent).  All UK and IRE racing markets will be subject to this change.  Live video for RSA and USA will continue to be provided with no associated fee.

Matched bets totalling a minimum aggregate of £5 will be required in order to watch associated streams. Aggregate matched bets on the following markets will qualify:

•    Win
•    Place
•    BSP bets
•    Tote bets

Combinations of bet types (e.g. £2 Tote exacta and £3 Exchange place) will qualify to watch live video for all markets which are subject to a bet before view qualification.

Unfortunately bets on Multiples do not currently qualify, although this is something that we are working on to change in future.

Lastly, following a recent site upgrade, the live video service is now also available to use from within the market view on our new site.

Thanks very much Tommy.  That's horse racing and no bet only and that is why I have not been affected.

The other exchange lets you watch if you haven't had a bet half the time, and they only ask for a £2 bet anyway.

i can't see this site lasting out for much longer ,certainly in the p2p area - hardly anyone on here these days and apathy will set in like rot - not to mention of course hoovering which i believe is rocking confidence .

Potential premium charges  as well add to the woes of anyone looking to this site attempting to make it pay .

Lord knows what this new site will achieve ,but i doubt many will still be around to play it  .

Maybe pulling the curtains down  in Europe has helped things on their way

I think your perspective might just be a teeny bit too narrow on all this Coach ?

as in a boat ?

It will be interesting to see what they do in the future with premium charge since the decline in liquidity virtually in all markets and more worryingly decreasing amount of active customers operating in the markets. Will they lower the PC rate to more operational level which would attract more customers to bet here or just to try rip off from the rest who are still here with new 80% rate.

if everyone moved they would drop it! empty exchange with 60% ? lets see what ladcrooks come up with the daq

tbf i don't think the exchange emptying has that much to do with the charges ,i think its a combination of things while the charges don't help ...the exchange wasn't this bad 6 months  ago .


maybe fewer overseas customers the main reason ?

tbf i don't think the exchange emptying has that much to do with the charges ,i think its a combination of things while the charges don't help ...the exchange wasn't this bad 6 months  ago .


maybe fewer overseas customers the main reason ?

Its the fact through the PC they have taken away the dream.Imo most gamblers gamble in the hope that one day they will find the system/luck/run/holy grail etc etc that will able them to call themselves a professional gambler and make a living gambling.The PC has taken that away from them so alot are now giving up.There are things that Betfair have done in the past that would help liquidity like commission free laying in running and no premium charge but they simply dont like the fact that some are making decent money that Betfair class as their money.
They look at it and as soon as a customer deposits they think that is now Betfairs money so if someone is consistantly withdrawing they dont like it but it is part of the P2P model so if nothing changes they will kill this exchange off imho.

The people who pay it are those who win every bet. If you win more than you lose but you lose a lot of bets too, you are less likely to pay the charge.

I suspect any purchase of the second biggest betting exchange by Ladbrokes would send Betfair and the bookies into panic.

not everyone that pays pc is using a bot , is on course or anything else .
i pay it , i back or lay or both pre race and bet in running using gruss and that's it .

there are still a few massive markets for betfair to try and get into.
india
usa
china

I think most new punters to Betfair won't have a clue what PC is, they just want to place a bet.

So attracted to the site by advertising or sponsorship (Betfair have been all over our tv screens last week) they will navigate to their potential bet, look at the odds, if there's sparse liquidity/a large spread they will then go to hills lads etc and never bother with BF again. Such a waste of a potential new customer.

The answer has to be for BF to support regular punters that seed markets or request prices, scare them off and the whole exchange concept falls flat. Support them by keeping the level of PC reasonable as in PC1, anything more is detrimental long term IMO. There's no point spending money on sponsoring snooker tournaments if the 'catch' has no available semi sensible odds to bet on.

trevh, the prob. is that bf wd prefer certain highly monitored relationships w/ marker makers and layers whose m. o. is to leave a sizeable chunk of their winnings in comm.

Anything more agile, more selective or more judgment-oriented that wins is equivalent to them for a winning customer, and that is not what they want as a bookmaker.

Yr motivation I wd guess is the same as mine, to get to offer bad-value odds in early markets w/ just enough liquidity and little enough tax (of any kind) to make it pay. I can't see why bf needs anything but money churning between all but their incumbent MMs in the late markets.

I pay 50% and don't even use an API such as Gruss.  Just me at home using the old site and nothing more.  As simplistic as can be. 

What they should do in my opinion (assuming they keep PC) is charge PC over the course of 1-3 months instead of weekly and introduce a personal allowance. 

A personal allowance allows the small time people such as myself to continue adding liquidity to plenty of markets - good for all - and those who have the significant edge - i.e. on course, sophisticated bots, etc - are still compensating Betfair for the hurt (imagined or not) they do to their £2 punters.

If you are paying Betfair 50% taxation that means before tax you are have only paid 5%-10% of your profit in commissions. Pay your dues by providing some liquidity by churning some breakeven bets.

I'm currently at 9.3%.

Pay my dues?  Provide some liquidity?  I think I've done both.  I'm not hoovering, sniping, or whatever fancy terms are used.  I'm not entirely sure what you mean by churning in a Betfair context, but I got caught out by this trap by placing too may bets on each market and from all sides.  Often taking bad bets so I could 'green up' even though they were poor bets. I was cutting margins on markets which would have been unattractive to anyone who can use Oddschecker if I wasn't around.

The PC has resulted in me placing fewer bets, never greening up with crap/correct odds and so liquidity falls and my % charges paid goes up.

Betfair make more money out of me but the result is a fall in liquidity and rising margins in many markets, persuading people to go elsewhere.

betfair will be concentrating on the fixed odds side of the business from now on !   lets hope another decent exchange can manifest in the coming years !

Templeton Peck, if you genuinely provide prices in unpopulated markets, then why not phone bf up and renegotiate your comm. or PC terms?

I think providing prices in unpopulated markets is pushing it, and certainly the minority of my work.  The number of markets I'm setting the prices on are negligible in the grand scheme of things.

I have no chance in hell in renegotiating terms.  Me placing fewer bets has next to no effect on Betfair, but I won't be the only PC payer reducing liquidity and the overall effect would be, in my view, noticeable.  It's one of the reasons many people are saying they're witnessing a fall in liquidity in a whole swathe of markets.

TP
In one of your posts you use the phrase "--- persuading people to go elsewhere ".
Where exactly can you go if you are a consistent winner ?
There's only Pinnacle that I know of as a viable alternative, but not for in running bets ?

Funnily enough Froggy Pinnacle have an interesting article regarding the drop in liquidity on Betfair that has been noted for the Aus Open. You'll find it in 'betting articles'found on their front page.

On reflection maybe you just mean the purple mob.
If so, is that really happening at all ?
Btw all this debate on here about the negative impact of the PC always seems to me to forget the basic point that circa 95 % of all users on here either don't pay PC due either to not being net winners or are winners but using strategies that generate charges to gross profit ratios well in excess of the 20% threshhold.
This 95 % is quite logically the market that BF is primarily interested in, and it is presumably quite heavily concentrated in markets where liquidity is as good as it has ever been ?
From BF's viewpoint, I can't see why they would be worrying.
That's not to say that you and others don't have a real and understandable complaint. But will it ever be important enough for BF to listen and react to ?

FAFH, I have no idea why I wrote "persuading people to go elsewhere."  I probably meant "persuading people to no longer bet on some markets."  I'm sure some go to the purple mob, some to Pinnac1e, but I really don't know.  I don't follow what's happening with Betfair in any detail and know nobody else - apart from online - who is involved in making a living through here.  I can only explain how PC affects me.

I doubt BF are worried, but as more and more people fall into the PC category - I'm assuming a lot more people come in than fall out - it will have a greater impact.

From the article john123 mentions (I'm assuming Betfair won't like me posting the link so you'll have to google for it):

"Big players may be mitigating their exposure to the Premium Charge by reducing the amount of backing and laying that they do, which depletes the available action in markets."

Now I'm no big player, but this is how I've reacted to the PC (in particular the 40-60% PC).

Pinnacle have got the game by the nuts in comparison to Betfair for things such as the tennis example.  102% books and up to the best part of $8k per bet.  If you want more on, just keep betting as they will adjust the price and if you are still happy keep going....

Betfair just cannot compete at all on this market for people who want a pre-match bet.

I wonder if Pinny have any plans to get an in-running operation underway?

Increasingly, Betfair's only attraction is the in-running side.  If somebody makes a claim to that, BF will have serious issues even in the short-term.

People have been going on about the exchange being in catastrophic decline for years, at least as long as I've been a member. If they were right it would be long gone. It's true that it's got harder for the minute proportion of players who make a good return (enough that they don't have to do anything else) but for most punters it's the same as it ever was.

To the extent that there is a reduction in liquidity that's likely to be mostly to do with reduced disposable incomes. The second biggest factor is probably the cross-matcher which reduces the volume traded because some previous bot strategies that generated high turnover at low margins are no longer worthwhile.

Regarding quack - there is no shortage of money available to boost liquidity there, I'd be glad to do it but I'm not running a charity so it'd have to be profitable. As it stands I can't do so profitably because of the way their systems work. I can't see them changing their systems because they offer greater margins to the operator than BF's do. This is the sole reason that I don't have a big operation at quack, low liquidity markets are no problem to me at all.

Whilst most normal punters don't like the idea of it (or even really understand it) the reality is that a huge proportion of the liquidity available on the exchange is provided by automated players (bots). If the environment is in-sufficiently friendly to bots then that liquidity won't be there, that's one of the key reasons for the lack of liquidity at quack.

As regards charges - whilst I'd rather not pay them charges on overall profit will never stop me playing, in fact it's the opposite, as BF charge me more and more I am further incentivised to increase my activity to keep my income growing. This is good for the exchange. In this respect I can see that increased charges do make sense. I'm not sure whether these charges put off "people with ambition" - it's impossible to know. I think most small recreational players are probably quite realistic about their prospects and don't worry too much about what'll happen after they've withdrawn even £10k, never mind a quarter of a million. If it deters a few marginal winners who were scraping by but now get demoralised that's so much the better for me.

Finally I would advise all to be careful what they wish for, a highly liquid exchange will also be very efficient and whilst that means recreational players will lose their money more slowly it also means that opportunities for genuinely good players to win are reduced. A "perfect" market with true prices benefits nobody except BF.

Dont the big winners who have to pay pc already earn themselves at least £1k a week after the charge, oh I feel really bad for them!

Er - no, that's not quite right, but your general sentiment is fair enough.

Layers shouldnt pay pc full stop, the site is bereft of them anyway, i lay 20% bigger prices and pay 40p if im lucky enouygh to be right, its  utterly disgusting.

What a relief it is, if and when one of the "heavyweights" comes on here to post a few salient points.
Thank you Aye Robot.

Aye Robot : As regards charges - whilst I'd rather not pay them charges on overall profit will never stop me playing, in fact it's the opposite, as BF charge me more and more I am further incentivised to increase my activity to keep my income growing. This is good for the exchange. In this respect I can see that increased charges do make sense.

If you take that to it's logical conclusion you would end up paying 99.9% in charges, sorry but your statement is illogical. It's a bit like wishing income tax was 75% so that you could work more hours. There has to be a point at which even you would turn off or go elsewhere, whether it be 60/70/80/90% in charges, there must be a tipping point.

I just can't see that increasing charges would be good for the exchange in terms of "incentivising" punters, or good in any other way come to that.

[i]Doridoru : Dont the big winners who have to pay pc already earn themselves at least £1k a week after the charge.. [/i}

Many "big winners" don't have to pay PC at all, they already pay more comm than PC payers are charged hence the reason for the charge - to make those who use the site for trading, botting and market making pay their fair share in comparison to position takers.

its official purple is taken ovber by ladbro

so things getting interesting

For the first time since I've been on Betfair, I actually felt valued as a customer yesterday when I received a visit from my account manager. Before yesterday, I never even realised that I had one.
Apparently since Breon Corcoran came over from Paddy's last Summer, a new team has been set up to get feedback from "VIP" customers (Their description - not mine ) with a view to improving customer relations. They also seemed to recognise that Betfair had been arrogant in its treatment of customers for some time and a greater customer focus was required if the exchange was to grow.
Apart from the general feedback and discussion about how the exchange operates and how customers communicate with it, I was surprised at how interested they were in suggestions as to how the Premium Charge could be modified to be fairer. The account manager rightly pointed out that the charge impacted different customers in different ways and that it needed modifying. I had the distinct impression that it would not be increasing but that they were exploring ways to rebate on losing runs or reduce the charge on lower levels.
At the very least, it seems that now they recognise that inventing a product doesn't give you monopoly rights over the market indefinitely.

That's jolly nice of them 1.01 Layer. The only thing worse then getting screwed is to be getting screwed with a smile. Vile company.

Lads plc, one of the world's leading betting and gaming companies, has today (24th January 2013) agreed to acquire the BETquack exchange business. The transaction is subject to certain conditions and is expected to complete in late February 2013.

What does this mean for you, our valued members?

Whilst ensuring that the integrity of the exchange is fully protected, we believe that combining the strengths of Lads with the expertise of BETqukcQ will have a hugely positive impact on the betting experience for our customers.

On completion, Ladbrokes will work with **** to further enhance the competitiveness of the exchange, focusing initially on growing liquidity and event coverage, as well as expanding the range and depth of markets offered.

How to access the website and how to contact us will stay the same, and we will continue to offer our great low commission rates and promotions. We will of course keep you informed of when any key developments or enhancements that may affect you are likely to happen.

Our ultimate ambition is to bring all the great elements of Ladbrokes and **** together and create an unrivalled betting experience for all our members.

Perhaps even the threat of competition is enough.

So,lads confirm takeover of daq.
And betfair start to think about what they have done since the float.
Things will have to change on here or there will be no betfair as we know it.

1.01 layer, I am now paying 60% PC, so any competition to betfair's charging structure will catch my attention. 

Unfortunately, being a small player I am not a VIP so will remain shafted if I use this site.

The ladbrokes betting exchange.... already sounds better than **** / smarkets.

In the 20% pc range at the mo,  hopefully now the 250k threshold wont be lowered which i was really worried about.  reckon i have about 18 months-2yrs until i get into 40-60 range.

fingers crossed for something positive to come out of lads acquisition.

Hazel, I consider myself a small player too. The account manager told me there were about 550 customers with VIP status, which included all PC payers and a handfull of big players and large liquidity providers. If you're on 60%, you should call the helpdesk and ask. Like I said, I din't realise that I was until they called me.
The impression I had about charging was that it was the smaller PC players and "full time liquidity providers" that they wanted to help, in order to keep them on the site as much as possible. They seemed aware that if you only made £500-1k a week on here and they took half, then you were likely to seek a better "income" elsewhere.

Yep, I made it clear to them that whilst my income may look good, there are the following issues that many of us face:

- no pension provided by Betfair
- anti-social working hours/days (weekend work and evenings)
- work way more than 235 days a year (normal person working days)
- no idea how many years will be able to earn a living (may lose edge, liquidity may seep away, etc). As time passes, tougher to re-enter workforce
- no colleagues.  Sat at home alone.
- and so on.

When you take these sort of things into account, being hit with a 40-60% charge will make many walk away.  It's not a case of seeing someone earn an above average salary that's tax-free.  Plus I expect most who are successful on here could be/were quite successful in the real world.

I've said it before but a weekly/monthly personal allowance on PC makes a lot of sense.

very interesting that 1.01.

550 customers seems quite low tho. 

would probably finish if i got to 250k and then they took half back weekly.  even to continue at 20% would be worth something.   I dont like paying 20% ...i really dont, but i couldnt live on 40-60% and would probably find it better  just getting a 'proper job'

I agree Templeton Pack. No colleagues. Sitting home and worry about girlfriend as well because I cant be in 2 places at one time. NO clarify Income from betfair. I havent receive any letter of confirmation of my income yet even when I needed that. I praying to God for any competitiveness because of ridiculous huge charges.

well put temps.  makes me think why am i still here?.

Spot on temps - made that pretty clear at my meeting as well.

They said they had no plans to increase charges, but we've heard that before.

Grass is always greener...I would love to be full time trader and not have to deal with the office politics, bickering, two facedness in my normal job...no one really likes each other. Im sure if your full time on Betfair you can make the right work/life balance, I play Tennis regular so that would work for me...

doridoru, I'm sure all full-time traders think the grass is greener doing what they do than it would be in an office job.  I know it is for me.  I'm merely pointing out that Betfair need to take into consideration the non-monetary aspects of what we do when calculating PC.

It's not as simple as saying Mr X earns £50,000 p.a. tax free on Betfair and so a charge should be placed on his profit that is equivalent to income tax.

Right, off to the nice and quiet gym...

Yeah Betfair need to do a lot more regarding the pc and hopeully with the new Laddies competition it may happen...

Just had a terrible afternoon at work, everyone miserable and grim so im hoping theres a future in full time trading, and yes its great when you can go to the golf/gym/tennis in the weekdays and its really quiet, another advantage!

The account manager told me there were about 550 customers with VIP status, which included all PC payers and a handfull of big players and large liquidity providers.

Well I've just checked back, and I hit the 20% total charges in Feb 2010. Used up my £1000 allowance in June 2010, and I've paid the 20% PC almost every week since then.

Never had a phone call from Betfair or any freebies (apart from a baseball cap which 'er indoors thinks I look daft in) , and as far as I know I'm not a VIP, nor do I have an account manager.

None of that really bothers me though, as I realise that Betfair enables me to avoid proper employment, and make more than I did when I was working, for less hours.

Similarly to Lanza though, in a year or two I'll probably hit 50-60% PC and have to decide what to do then. Wouldn't be easy.

By the way, although not all of his points apply to me, great post by TP at 12.03.

Jan 24, 2013 -- 6:03AM, Templeton Peck wrote:

Yep, I made it clear to them that whilst my income may look good, there are the following issues that many of us face:- no pension provided by Betfair- anti-social working hours/days (weekend work and evenings)- work way more than 235 days a year (normal person working days)- no idea how many years will be able to earn a living (may lose edge, liquidity may seep away, etc). As time passes, tougher to re-enter workforce - no colleagues.  Sat at home alone.- and so on.When you take these sort of things into account, being hit with a 40-60% charge will make many walk away.  It's not a case of seeing someone earn an above average salary that's tax-free.  Plus I expect most who are successful on here could be/were quite successful in the real world.I've said it before but a weekly/monthly personal allowance on PC makes a lot of sense.

Yeah! Amazing post matching to my situation perfectly.

My mind always boggles when I read on here on how seemingly many of you on here have found and employ consistent winning strategies that apparently only generate total charges to GP ratios below the 5 % mark.
I employ a number of consistently winning strategies and every one of them generates charges to GP ratios well in excess of the 20% threshold figure used for PC liability calculations.
And I can't even begin to imagine how my strategies will ever produce less charges than they do.
Obviously I'm not jealous of all you others, but I wonder what you know about successful high profit marginn betting which I obviously don't know and probably never will.

Been with betfair since day 1.
Since the introduction of the tax i have used them much less.
The firm has been going downhill since they started the tax,and it effects everyone in some way.
All it will take for betfair to be in serious trouble is,
laddys have a proper go at the inrunning markets.
Every one that pays the tax or is near the tax will swap over.Then the smaller players will jump ship as well.
Its a shame becourse betfair before they became betunfair were brilliant for every one,but it seems greed took over.

Two things in your post Coner that puzzle me a bit.

1)" The firm has been going downhill since they started the tax, and it effects everyone in some way ".

2) " Every one that pays the tax or is near the tax will swap over. Then the smaller players will jump ship as well ".

Both points seem to ignore the basic fact that most users are not concerned in the slightest by the tax, and do not see it as either an actual or a potential problem.

That's not to say that I don't understand it is a problem ( and a big one) for a minority on here. But that's all it is.

It's not a game changer as far as the future of BF is concerned.

FATH, that depends on how much spot liquidity (price availability to the recreational player logging in) is provided by the disgrunted pc players.

Frog.
    You have been around a long while,i have read many a post by you ,all good fun may i add and some very imformative.
To try to anser you.
1---when the tax was introduced i and 3 others from my town,were forced to curtail a lot of our punting--tradeing call it what you wish,away from betfair.That was just 4 from my vicinity that i no about.it effected all as there was not  as much about.Now multiply it, lots more that fell into tax bracket got a little peeved that betfair was takeing there winnings,and started useing other firms to do whatever they did.
So plenty of liquidy gone from betfair,whicht affects us all.
2--
Like i said if ladys some how get the inrunning playable,every one that has to pay tax to betfair will move over,those near the tax bracket will move over.Then all those that have never heard of the dreaded pc will wonder why betfair markets are empty and follow.

I get the good points you are both making.
Now I'm not a trader and so to a certain extent I'm blissfully ignorant of the trials oand tribulations caused to traders by the PC.
Also I do not wager at all in most of the weird and wonderful derivative side mkts now being offered on BF.
But I think that makes me a " normal" punter as opposed to those of you who have developed specialist ( dare I say abnormal ) skills in trading and also exploiting the side mkts. Good luck to you for what you have developed, but I sense you are in the minority.
As such I think I speak for the majority on here who are not overly concerned by the PC, both in that they are never likely to have to pay it ( even if they are overall winners), and that in the mainstream mkts wkere the majority bet, there would appear to have been no material drop off in liquidity.
Now I concede may be totally wrong on all this, and that my trading shortcomings may be blinding me to an obvious, doom ridden future for BF.
I am a betting dinosaur tha's for sure. But sometimes simple is best.

Frog : My mind always boggles when I read on here on how seemingly many of you on here have found and employ consistent winning strategies that apparently only generate total charges to GP ratios below the 5 % mark.
I employ a number of consistently winning strategies and every one of them generates charges to GP ratios well in excess of the 20% threshold figure used for PC liability calculations.
And I can't even begin to imagine how my strategies will ever produce less charges than they do.
Obviously I'm not jealous of all you others, but I wonder what you know about successful high profit marginn betting which I obviously don't know and probably never will.

I agree that most punters will be paying way way more than 20% in comm, but having started a mate on BF a couple of years ago and explained basic winning methods to him, he now makes a weekly wage and pays around 6/7% in basic comm which is far less than me!

It didn't come easy though, he gave up 3 times before succeeding, I had to push him all the way, but the low basic comm strategies are there Frog, if I explained more you would even say "that's so obvious", they're not rocket science, but as always most things are simple when you've learnt how :)

Well I believe you Trevh, though I wouldn't necessarily believe many others who might claim the same thing.
Therefore, my mind now boggles at the implications of your post.
That is, the obvious is apparently staring  me in the face, and I can't see it for looking.
Now that is mildly frustrating, to say the least.

If the tax had been set at 30% flat rate and was taken monthly would there still be so many compliants? - 30% having taken out API charges, transaction charges, data request charges and commission generated - No 250k threshold just a simple 30%.

I never understood that if you had made your money at a lower rate (under 5 % to betfair) they were to top it up to 60% of winnings whereas if you already paid 12% they only topped it up to 40%. Its like people were punished for not paying as much in the past. Its would be like the government charging a new immigrant from the EU a higher tax rate (or deny services) than those who worked in the UK all their lives. i.e. totally unfair.

My guess is the bands were set by someone data trawling their historical database rather than predicting the affect the tax would have on people's behaviour. Economics 101 shows us at some point higher taxes actually lead to lower revenues.

My Commission Generated is 9.3% of Gross PL because of bad bets.  Yep, BAD bets.

I started in Oct 2009 - I clearly joined Sep 02 but hardly used the site to begin with, maybe a £5 bet every few months as my gambling existence was purely £5 accumulators with the High St on a Saturday - and when I started I was poor.  So for the first 2.5 years I concentrated on being green in every market, which obviously means taking very poor value bets at time.  The downside to this was when my Commission Generated was a very small % of my profits.

Now my bank is ok and I've fallen into PC2, I've changed how I bet (I take much larger risks) and virtually never green up.  This means my Commission Generated over the last few months has been 15%-20%.  I'm hoping to get this higher so I can increase my overall % of 9.3% to over 10%.

Funnily enough, the methods required to get my % higher have actually lead to me significantly increasing my gross profits.  So that's the silver lining.

"I never understood that if you had made your money at a lower rate (under 5 % to betfair) they were to top it up to 60% of winnings whereas if you already paid 12% they only topped it up to 40%. Its like people were punished for not paying as much in the past." Agree.. Inside Trader. Punishing us for being here and I'm not really sure why...

The worst thing about the PC is that it is restrospective. All calculations are based on lifetime P and L.

If they said, "Right, we're gonna charge you 20-60 per cent from now on if you fall inside the PC criteria," most PC players would alter their betting strategies.

In fact, I'm sure most would churn over more money, by placing a lot of substantial break-even bets, which would be perfect for betfair.

InsideTrader "Its would be like the government charging a new immigrant from the EU a higher tax rate (or deny services) than those who worked in the UK all their lives. i.e. totally unfair."

How is that unfair?

Those who pay minimal (

I think its a little misunderstanding Templeton Peck. Charges cant be the same for everybody. NOt at this times(Its hard to believe, but long, long ago we hada a .... one charge

Checked the value of my own shares today and thought I'd compare how Betfair compared with other betting frms over the last 12 months at the same time

Betfair down 27%
Bwin down 28%
Ladybrokes up 50%
Billies up 72%
Paddies up 48%
Spbet up 37%

BF shares? Sell,sell,sell. . .

ITS all gone,
No longer exchange.
No longer best prices.
No longer winners welcome.
No longer is anyone allowed to win.
NO one loves us anymore.
8secs delay and pc has killed it.
Well done so called betfair

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole to keep the forum alive eh ?