General Betting
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31 May 12
19:14
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Date Joined:
16 Jan 09
Saw a small note in RP two days ago that Betfair had contracted Betgenius to provide their fixed odds sportsbook.
Can anyone confirm if this is the entire fixed odds sportsbook – or just a small segment of it?
I appreciate that the provision of sportsbooks is becoming a commodity product, but who is left running their own independent sportsbooks these days?
What is going to happen when no-one is making a price and everyone is just scraping and following everyone else... will we be able to make the markets whatever we like for pennies and then back them for pounds?
Can anyone confirm if this is the entire fixed odds sportsbook – or just a small segment of it?
I appreciate that the provision of sportsbooks is becoming a commodity product, but who is left running their own independent sportsbooks these days?
What is going to happen when no-one is making a price and everyone is just scraping and following everyone else... will we be able to make the markets whatever we like for pennies and then back them for pounds?
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Replies: 52
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betgenius... that's an oxymoron if ever I saw one
 one out all out is common place on many markets. |
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It makes commercial sense for the sportsbook to be contracted out because otherwise it would be easy for Betfair to get accused of insider trading.
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Whats happened to the crack dealers?
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they will still take opinions on events when they see fit - all bookmakers want to automate all much as possible so that they can focus on the bigger stuff.makes sense really.
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Sorry I might be asking something thats already been covered previously but any details on this sportsbook? I got the questionnaire sometime back and the live Q/A regarding it then nothing so any updates appreciated. What will they cover, EP horses?
Thanks in advance. |
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The sportsbook is already up and running on some markets, but you have to use beta to see it.
One disaster after another imo. |
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will we be able to make the markets whatever we like for pennies and then back them for pounds?
Betfair's new fixed-odds sportsbook only accepts pennies unfortunately. |
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Betfair was always in reality the same model as traditional bookmakers, not a new one. What happened is that instead of paying for a team of internal traders to set prices, move prices, and restrict shrewd accounts, it ended up not paying for any of these skills, and letting the prices available be higher as a result, just relying on a 5% commission on winning bets.
Betfair have now set the wheels in motion in the opposite direction though. Its sportsbook scrapes the market price and offers a price much lower, e.g. if a price is 1.85-1.86, it will offer 1.75. Betfair's rise came about because they were offering better value for most markets than was previously the case. It would rise further if they could find new ways to do this. Instead, this sportsbook results in a big rise in costs hiring a trading team, and soon when people log in, it won't be the exchange price which comes up first, it will be the sports book's lower price. At the moment people have to click a button to switch to the sportsbook price. Soon it will be the other way around. acc - why would Betfair's traders not have access to who was betting on what? Why do you assume there is a guarantee this won't happen? It makes sense financially for it to happen, and why would Betfair not take advantage of this 'edge'? |
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Ballibriggs, because if this went on in financial markets, it would be classed as insider trading.
Although Betfair is not regulated by the Fsa at the moment the ethical considerations are the same. Other bookmakers have the option of refusing a bet or changing their prices but people who leave their money sitting on the exchange do not have that option. |
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I don't see this feature available for horses early - is this correct? If so what time? What sort of limits are they letting you bet to?
eg: a class 2 handicap - 10 runners and say a class 4 handicap chase also 10 runners Has anyone calculate the overrounds if these markets are available for horses and how do they compare to the bookies odds? |
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acc, every single bookmaker looks at who bets on what. Every single one. Why should Betfair's new sportsbook be any different? It would make no sense at all not to, let alone no financial sense not to.
Betfair's sportsbook does not 'leave money sitting on the exchange', they move their prices according to business taken (or whatever other reason their trader believes is a valid one to move the price). They also limit bets heavily. It seems very strange to not expect Betfair's new sportsbook not to behave like every single other sportsbook in the world. This is not a traditional financial market, so your extrapolation of the financial markets onto Betfair's sportsbook, seems strange, when you perhaps should be comparing other sportsbooks to Betfair's sportsbook. |
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What this will do is allow betfair to have a presence in countries where the exchange model is banned or non-viable due to taxation/licensing.
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parrys,
Betfair have already done this, e.g. http://www.betfair.it/ - I think there they just take current exchange prices and take a % off for fees. (football seems to be priced up to 110%, for example). The difference between that and the new offering is that Betfair will offer prices for markets where there is no real exchange activity. |
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No Ballibrigs, i'm not talking about restrictions on the sportsbook, but the possibilit of Betfair hedging into the exchange while having access to information on particular customers.
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racinguru think Bodog but not quite as good.
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ok - considering bodog will let me on for next to zero BF not gonna be an option.
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Imv bf face a reputational risk in their sportsbook knocking people back that the conventional-seeming books don't have.
When Paddy gives you 15 notes morning price on the Gold Cup winner, no one is surprised, because the bookmaking industry is a joke. But bf have traded for years on 'winners welcome'. Mr Magoo, I don't see that they wd be doing themselves any good in offering terrible prices. The people who don't place a sign. proportion of their bets w/ them because the markets are unformed are still going to bet w/ their rivals offering better prices. So what is the good of their investment in a trading team? NB--bf also run the gauntlet of having arbers that lose them w/ taking the price and becoming winners. If they're going to restrict on the basis of customers' lifetime profitability, they're in for a few headaches, with arbers and multiple accounts. |
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My sense is that with the exception of football, the sports markets will 'eat themselves'.
Hardly anyone will bet early because the prices will be so poor. The only participants will be the insiders. The books will ratchet the ORs higher, to leave only the insiders betting. Then late on, you will have bot players with no love for any particular sport catering to a dwindling market of addicts. Without a sizeable body of public interest and of players who afford to place fun bets, betting is not possible for either bookmaker or form student / shrewdie. |
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They'll maybe resurrect that "cut out the middleman" advert to advertise their new sportsbook.
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I see that the usual palp get out also applies if the crack traders feck it up.
From rules & regs: Errors in respect of bets placed on ‘Fixed Odds’ and ‘Multiples’ products Betfair makes every effort to ensure that it does not make any errors when accepting bets. However, if as a result of technical or system problems or human error, a bet is accepted either on Betfair’s Fixed Odds or on Betfair’s Multiples products that is at odds (which includes handicap provisions or similar) and/or is on terms that are either: (a) materially different from those available in the general betting market at the time the bet was made; or (b) clearly incorrect given the chance of the event occurring at the time the bet was made; then all bets will stand and Betfair will settle winning bets at the ‘correct price’. To establish the ‘correct price’, Betfair will consider prices available in the general betting market at the time the bet was made, including the prices offered by other major betting operators. |
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Is it normal for rules to refer to "correct prices"?
Since when has a bookmaker attempted to offer a "correct price"? |
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All of Betfair's fixed odd prices are 'materially different' from those available in the general betting market, in that they are clearly lower!
If anyone bets with the fixed odds, they should force Betfair to apply these rules to their bets, as the 'correct price' is going to be better than the one they took |
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I think its going to be interesting to see how various market rules / in running delays etc. compare with the exchange.
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Thanks for replies....
I think we need to start making 'sportbooks' robots... the bots leading the followers leading the followers back to the bots... |
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I'm presuming there won't be any "bot" access to sportsbook. That would sort of defeat the point from Betfair's angle wouldn't it?
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I did not mean bet on the sportsbook - I meant 'lead' it to 'lead' the market to 'lead' BF exchange and then snaffle the exchange price...
in the land of zero opinions the spoofer can be king... |
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Bf rules say they do not stand for market manipulation...but there have been instances of it that have come to light--like Anthony Bromley setting up the price for his own horse--and I don't know that bf have taken any preventative action.
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nothing done about spoofing for a decade.... so wont.cant start now
besides, in fast markets what is to say you dont change your mind every 2 seconds lol but if every bookie, including betfair is just shadowing betfair... then peopel will give it a go... |
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Are there any markets/bookies that can really 'lead' the exchange markets? Common wisdom on here seems to be that everyone slavishly follows the betfair prices (cue the endless bickering about £2 punters 'ruining' early prices)
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Whats spoofing ?
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The palp stuff is pretty annoying given the way they've never worried about "trap betting" before.
All it needs now is for them to sign a figure with an unusual reputation in the gambling world and they'll have completed the comedy routine. |
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I think what mag means is put a high price on here, wait for the sport book to react and back it. Then cancel the bet on here before it's taken. If the spoofer is the only one who can calculate the prices accurately it would work.
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Shirley youre running the risk of your spoof bet being matched ? How does that work ??
madness if you ask me.  |
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Yes, of course. It relies on that not happening often
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Mr Magoo. Betfair prices are faithful to the asian markets for footy. Pinnacle for some sports as well I think.
UK bookies - no. |
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I'm not familiar with football betting, but I've heard people mention the asian markets before. Which online asian bookies are influential?
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SBObet?
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You don't mind if yr spoof bet is matched on the exchange for pennies, provided you can get on at a slightly lower price on the fixed odds for pounds.
My guess wd be that this happens a lot in early price horses already. |
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I see Spain are 4.3 to back on the Sportsbook but only 3.95 to lay on the exchange!!! What are the chances of Betfair palping my bets or banning me if I take advantage of the arb?
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