General Betting
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Hello
I've just seen a Betfair TV advert state that for the majority of time they provide 'better valve' prices over all the major high-street bookies for footy. I'm sure this 'better value' doesn't include the 5% commission and of course doesn't included the up to 60% super tax. Surely this is false advertising? Also why is it that the competition never strike back with ad's to point out the facts about Betfairs super tax? Fair enough you might say that Betfair don't ban winners while the high-street bookies do, but at the very least the purple site should be screaming and shouting about the facts, yet I'm struggling still to hear a pip squeeze from them?! Not everyone has Setanta purple, put your hands in your pockets and get your ad's on Sky!
I've just seen a Betfair TV advert state that for the majority of time they provide 'better valve' prices over all the major high-street bookies for footy. I'm sure this 'better value' doesn't include the 5% commission and of course doesn't included the up to 60% super tax. Surely this is false advertising? Also why is it that the competition never strike back with ad's to point out the facts about Betfairs super tax? Fair enough you might say that Betfair don't ban winners while the high-street bookies do, but at the very least the purple site should be screaming and shouting about the facts, yet I'm struggling still to hear a pip squeeze from them?! Not everyone has Setanta purple, put your hands in your pockets and get your ad's on Sky!
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Ive only seen the golf ones but they usually clearly state that 5% commission had been deducted and *other charges may apply.
I don't think it's long before the others start mentioning that it's a minimum of 22.5% commission long term though. |
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Now you mention it I think I may have seen the small print too in past ads, I was just taken back by the lasted I'd just seen that actually names loads of other bookies that it claims to have 'better value' over. I didn't think advertisers were so blatantly allowed to put down their competitors? Main point remains though that if this aggressive new tactic is allowed, surely the competitors should start shouting about, as you say, 22.5% long term commission.
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Well, one explanation is that they may be contemplating a similar charge in the future. I had a email recently from them boasting that I can "still" bet with them without incurring pc. Hmmm, can be read two ways?
With regards to Betfair ads I don't see why they should have to mention pc any more than a bookie should advertise the fact that if you win from them they will close your account. And that can be read two ways too :p |
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Betfair sent you an email boasting that you can bet without incurring PC? Er?
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1. as you say, the betfair small print does say 'other charges may apply'
2. as you say, the competition (who are being named and shamed in these adverts) don't say in their own adverts that their offers/prices are unavailable to anyone who wins. |
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Commission IS included. PC and other charges are not.
For the retail gambler this advert is aimed at that isn't relevant anyway. |
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For the retail gambler this advert is aimed at that isn't relevant anyway.
Is that not pretty much what bet365 told the advertising authorities Investor? It would be a laugh if they all went to town on each other and brought all the skeletons out of their cupboards. Bookmakers who close you down if you win, no lose trainer accounts, 60% charges, betfair mugging crews, shell and pea gangs, insiders who already know the result, non-insiders who already know the result, betting pattern security teams with 5 houses each, bha big-wigs with betfair shares, bhb chairmen organising betting coups....... Alas, they're all frightened they'll derail the gravy train. |
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No jack, it was the purple.
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Is that not pretty much what bet365 told the advertising authorities Investor?
Not sure what that's referring to Feck? |
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Aggressive Betfair ad's what?
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Investor, the advertising authorities ruled against them when there were complaints from people who weren't being given their free c4 bets ("bet a winner at 4/1 or greater and get a free bet on next c4 race ..."). I think bet365's defense was they were arbers or pros or something and the adverts weren't directed at them.
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The OP states that purple should “put your hands in your pockets and get your ad's on Sky!” but this is exactly what I hope they don’t do.
Once they start shelling money out left right and centre for more ads / sponsorship they will be on the slippery slope to having to increase charges to cover it. I was recently speaking to somebody fairly high-up in purple who basically told me that they were happy to sit back and watch betfair eat itself. He also told me that they gained more custom from the ongoing reduced commission promotion than they would ever get from spending the same on advertising. Mind you, somebody else I know who has worked for Betfair and still has good connections told me that it is inevitable that as Purple gain more customers who are PC payers on BF, they will have to charge more to sustain the eco-system. He knows the business better than most so it is hard to dismiss what he says. |
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Ah yes, that's a complete rip-off from bet365.
Betfair is already too complicated for many people. Imagine if they were forced to mention that long term winners may be subject to a 60% charge on profits... You need the skills of an accountant / tax specialist, just to fully undestand how the charge works! |
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"sustain the ecosystem"
 I can't believe anyone is sucked is this babble, least of all BF management themselves. |
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Gin, surely a PC on purple would be a PR disaster.
I also don't buy it that they will have to charge more for the following reason: Purple's comm structure favours market makers http://www.betangel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3464 A pure market maker pays 1% commission. Unless this whole system they have implemented is completely wrong to begin with, it can't be true that they'll be forced to introduce PC. PC misses out something important. Look at the following hypothetical scenario for a small margin large scale market maker paying PC: turnover £10m a month (bet volume). gross margin 0.3%. So on 40% PC, bf take about 12k of 30k gp. What this doesn't take into account is that some of the people on the other side of these bets, wouldn't have even placed a bet if it wasn't for the fact that the market maker had contributed to a 100.3%-99.7% market. Currently most of the winners on purple are price takers, basically just taking stuff that is wrong according to Betfair. If purple gain more customers who pay PC on Betfair, it will be the PC paying customers who can't be sustained rather than the purple charging structure, and a large portion of them won't be able to make it pay due to the smaller pool of leasure punters. They wouldn't get away with a PC anyway, as anyone that currently bets on there to avoid PC, would be incentivized to come back to Betfair. Of course, people running bots making passive income could be charged, as they would simply run their bots on both BF and ****, whatever the charging structure, provided it was still worth it from a risk/reward perspective. It would still be very bad PR though. The PC exists because Betfair can get away with charging it (at least in the short to medium term). Purple can't. All other justifications are riddled with logical inconsistencies. If there had been a situation where Betfair has 30% market share, purple has 30% market share and another exchange has 30% market share too, I can't imagine ONE of these implementing a PC. |
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Some good points well made investor.
Don’t shoot the messenger! I am just passing on two conversations I have had with well informed people from both companies. I was not saying that I think Purple will or should start charging PC – However, if you compare the two companies, Purple is very lean in terms of staff and running costs. If they were to start a big advertising campaign against Betfair the money to pay for it would have to come from somewhere and charges are probably where they would start (even if it was just scrapping their promotional commission rates). I have just re-read some old e-mails and I mis-represented what my friend said. What he actually said was that Purple’s problem was that they needed the same eco-system that betfair seek and he went on to make the point (similar to yours) that if all the big BF winners moved over to purple there wouldn’t be enough people to feed them. |
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When another exchange finally realises that betfair is about 400 stone overweight (in human body terms) and that they should be laughed at rather than envied only then will betfair have a real fight on their hands. To think that betfair paid people money to come up with that "cut out the middleman" ad. WALOSC's.
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I have good reason to believe that purple have preferred market makers that would not welcome too much competition.
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Yeah, that was awful feck. The current advertising campaign seems good to me though.
Catfleppo, can you go into a bit more detail: who are the preferred market makers; betting promotion, **** themselves? Send me a message pls if you don't want to post |
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Gin, the whole idea of an advertising campaign would surely be that it pays for itself (and then some) by way of new customers / increased commission.
The way they do things now is probably better though. They do advertise nationally in Ireland, as I've seen them on Setanta. |
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I don't know investor but when I tried to port my bot over there they complained that I was moving bigger bets off the screen with my little ones. That's fundamentally how an exchange works so I drew my conclusions, packed up my little botty parts and haven't been back since.
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cat,
What form did their 'complaint' take? Did they actually threaten to prevent you from operating your bot? |
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Yes, they said they would stop me unless I raised my minimum stake to £10
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"betting pattern security teams with 5 houses each"
Can you back that statment up Mr Eejit? |
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TheInvestor2
05 Mar 12 16:29 Joined: 28 May 11 | Topic/replies: 1,182 | Blogger: TheInvestor2's blog Gin, the whole idea of an advertising campaign would surely be that it pays for itself (and then some) by way of new customers / increased commission. Surely if they thought that they would be doing it? |
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Obviously, I have no idea what their plans are but maybe they are biding their time until they feel splashing out on an big advertising campaign will have maximum impact.
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The betting competition don't tax they simply AXE, because they don't want anyone to win
and at least betfair allow you to win at a rate that doesn't empty the system against betfairs massive operational costs , seems pretty fair to me , perhaps you don't pay any taxes  |
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Good ad for Betfair, "we don't axe, we tax"
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Gin
Date Joined: 02 Jun 03 Add contact | Send message When: 05 Mar 12 17:37 Joined: Date Joined: 02 Jun 03 | Topic/replies: 670 | Blogger: Gin's blog TheInvestor2 05 Mar 12 16:29 Joined: 28 May 11 | Topic/replies: 1,182 | Blogger: TheInvestor2's blog Gin, the whole idea of an advertising campaign would surely be that it pays for itself (and then some) by way of new customers / increased commission. Surely if they thought that they would be doing it? Sure, what I meant was that either it pays for itself in the way described above or it doesn't. If it doesn't, it doesn't make sense doing it by increasing charges for existing (and new) customers. |
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I agree investor! That’s why (as I said in my 13:31 post) purple are happy to let Betfair do its own thing.
It seems to me that they are doing the right thing by keeping the business lean and mean, hanging on to Betfairs coat tails whilst letting them make all the mistakes in a newly evolving business. Maybe one day they will feel the right opportunity to pounce. |
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What better opportunity will there after BF starting taxing 60%. At least they have ad's nationally in Ireland now, so perhaps if that goes well, then they will go big on Sky UK.
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It seems to me that they are doing the right thing by keeping the business lean and mean, hanging on to Betfairs coat tails whilst letting them make all the mistakes in a newly evolving business. Maybe one day they will feel the right opportunity to pounce. All of the big betting companies advertise aggressively, sounds to me like they need a new man at the top with a bit of ambition, they're stagnated and they seem happy about it. |
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To me it sounds like spin really.
They are saying that they can't afford the upfront costs of advertising, but dressing it up as though they are being patient learning from the mistakes of others. |
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I don't think you're a million miles off the mark cat. I've reached similar conculsions for different reasons. (and sorry to be vague but I'd rather not elaborate)
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I think the only way for Betfair now is down.It has come to the point where the markets
offer no value.Similar to the early days when they was struggling for liquidity but allowed seeding. Now with all these charges(would be ok if we had seeding and liquidity) I can see the pros and most others who are clued up to do something different to speculate their money. |
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I think the only way for Betfair now is down.It has come to the point where the markets
offer no value.Similar to the early days when they was struggling for liquidity but allowed seeding. Now with all these charges(would be ok if we had seeding and liquidity) I can see the pros and most others who are clued up to do something different to speculate their money. |
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YOU CANT BET BETTOR THAN A BETFAIR BETTOR
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YOU CAN BET BETTOR WHEN YOUR A BETFAIR BETTOR
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most bookmakers will never let you win up to £250,000 unless you managed a massive coup bet
so Betfair don't need to compete on rules purely on that basis, betfair encourage you to win but charge you at the rate you benefit from using there exchange, a premium charge for what is a premium betting service second to non! Its a matter of putting it all into the correct perspective to arrive at the bigger picture! |