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If Betfair fail to put a market in-running at the official start time but do so later in the event then all bets matched between the start time and when it was put in-running stand. (for football only if a material event of goal or sending off has not occurred). Surely this rule is nonsense and leaves punters putting up pre-match prices unfairly exposed.
I have no financial interest in today's Indian Premier League game between Arrows and Salgaocar but the game was put in-play approximately 28 mins late. Under 2.5 goals had dropped from 2.4 to around 1.7. How can Betfair justify allowing pre-off unmatched bets that were subsequently matched after kick off to stand?
I understand the frustration of those wanting to play in-running but under their current rules it has got to be fairer that the market is suspended and not put in-running, allowing bets after the off to be voided.
Or better still a change in the rules that bets are void after the off if the pre-match bets have not been cancelled and the market put in-running.
I also understand the frustration of someone who then places a bet after the off, perhaps trades it and then finds the initial bet void.
It needs to be clearly stated that the bets placed are pre-off or in-running so they can void where necessary.
The football example above isn't an isolated case of Betfair suspending late. There seems to be a slack attitude to late suspensions and no consideration to the pre-off backers and layers. I don't believe that a lot of the staff at Betfair have any realisation of the effect of 30mins of a scoreless soccer can have on prices.
Betfair really don't want to lose the confidence of their market makers, the rule needs changing
I have no financial interest in today's Indian Premier League game between Arrows and Salgaocar but the game was put in-play approximately 28 mins late. Under 2.5 goals had dropped from 2.4 to around 1.7. How can Betfair justify allowing pre-off unmatched bets that were subsequently matched after kick off to stand?
I understand the frustration of those wanting to play in-running but under their current rules it has got to be fairer that the market is suspended and not put in-running, allowing bets after the off to be voided.
Or better still a change in the rules that bets are void after the off if the pre-match bets have not been cancelled and the market put in-running.
I also understand the frustration of someone who then places a bet after the off, perhaps trades it and then finds the initial bet void.
It needs to be clearly stated that the bets placed are pre-off or in-running so they can void where necessary.
The football example above isn't an isolated case of Betfair suspending late. There seems to be a slack attitude to late suspensions and no consideration to the pre-off backers and layers. I don't believe that a lot of the staff at Betfair have any realisation of the effect of 30mins of a scoreless soccer can have on prices.
Betfair really don't want to lose the confidence of their market makers, the rule needs changing
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I agree entirely, it's a disgrace. It isn't the case on Aussie markets, which are more regulated.
Happened in a Rugby match the other day, when the start time was either incorrect or was brought forward for some reason. I took a price only too realise that there was no clock and had to wait 40 minutes (and 3 phone calls) before they could confirm to me if the bet would stand or not, during which time I didn't know if I could lay it off or not.
Just made me think that if it's not their money, they don't care. I'm sure that's not true, well I'd like to think so anyway but they are doing their reputation for fairness no favours at all.
Happened in a Rugby match the other day, when the start time was either incorrect or was brought forward for some reason. I took a price only too realise that there was no clock and had to wait 40 minutes (and 3 phone calls) before they could confirm to me if the bet would stand or not, during which time I didn't know if I could lay it off or not.
Just made me think that if it's not their money, they don't care. I'm sure that's not true, well I'd like to think so anyway but they are doing their reputation for fairness no favours at all.
Do you think you could give me details of this rugby match and the market you were involved in? There's a fair chance my pre-off money was taken after the off as I price up all the rugby markets.
The Man - it was Ospreys v Dragons - last Friday, 27th Jan.
BF (and oddschecker) had it down as a 7:30KO, but it was a 7:05 KO. Sure enough BF didn't realise and I for one emailed them prior to the event and then spoke to helpdesk after KO to get them to sort it out. It is almost certain you had bets taken after the off as there was some scoring activity between the game kicking off and BF turning in play.
I too agree that the rules should be changed as the market maker who is framing prices for others to bet is taking all the risk if the event is not handled correctly.
Also, in the case of this rugby game, those of us betting in-running could not be sure that the game would actually be turned in play, therefore we could not be sure if we were on or not.
A very unsatisfactory situation for two sets of people.
BF (and oddschecker) had it down as a 7:30KO, but it was a 7:05 KO. Sure enough BF didn't realise and I for one emailed them prior to the event and then spoke to helpdesk after KO to get them to sort it out. It is almost certain you had bets taken after the off as there was some scoring activity between the game kicking off and BF turning in play.
I too agree that the rules should be changed as the market maker who is framing prices for others to bet is taking all the risk if the event is not handled correctly.
Also, in the case of this rugby game, those of us betting in-running could not be sure that the game would actually be turned in play, therefore we could not be sure if we were on or not.
A very unsatisfactory situation for two sets of people.
Sorry for the delay, the man. It was the match Vis mentions. I'll send you a message with details.
Sent you a msg, the man and I've bumped the thread on the Rugby forum. TheVis, very helpfully points out the relevant rules in it and you can see a bit of a timeline.
Of course this rule needs changing. It's theft at the end of the day. I've banged my head against a brick wall with Betfair abotu this over the years to no avail.
It's happened for years. I've lost count of the number of tennis matches which are turned in play late. It's shocking.
agree entirely.
if im not around at the start of a match, i cancel all my unmatched bets in advance. i never trust betfair to suspend in time.
if im not around at the start of a match, i cancel all my unmatched bets in advance. i never trust betfair to suspend in time.
I mean how difficult is it to suspend matches on time...I ask you ffs
Or better still a change in the rules that bets are void after the off if the pre-match bets have not been cancelled and the market put in-running.
That is exactly what they normally do. If they didn't do it in this instance then ask them to do it. I would be very surprised if they refuse.
That is exactly what they normally do. If they didn't do it in this instance then ask them to do it. I would be very surprised if they refuse.
It is not what they do at all. Depends on sport and where (aus wallet and footie are different) but if market is not cleared down at the off and then is turned in play at some stage then all bets stand.
The Indian game mentioned in the opening post today was a truce farce. Whilst the Betfair listing had it as a 10am KO, it was listed in every other place as an 8.30am KO - including on the Betfair video listing as 8.30am where it was shown live from KO.
An extra half hour in bed almost certainly saved me £7-8K and a whole load of hassle with Betfair. I usually price these games across all markets 2 hours before KO but didn't get round to it until just gone 8.30am and I happened to notice that the match had started.
I agree entirely that the rule is nonsense. Not only that it is open to abuse/fraud from market operations.
i.e. if the bet goes against you the event is not put in running at a later date and it ends up being void, while if it goes for you the event is put in running at a later date and you collect.
Obviously one could also back 0-0 in running if the event was failed to be put in play. In effect a FREE BET to nothing
i.e. if the bet goes against you the event is not put in running at a later date and it ends up being void, while if it goes for you the event is put in running at a later date and you collect.
Obviously one could also back 0-0 in running if the event was failed to be put in play. In effect a FREE BET to nothing
I wonder when Betfair start their Sportsbook that they'll be standing bets 30mins in to the action at pre-off prices? Somehow I think not, but they expect the exchange layers to do just that.
A few years ago when the rule was brought in I recall stating my objection to Andrew Black at a horse meeting. He said that the rule was there simply for if Betfair miss the start by a few seconds and they would never put in-play an event that had a meaningful period expired.
Either there's been a change of policy (due to greed and little thought of the customer) or the staff making these on the spot decisions of whether to go in play or not have no idea of the implications of their decision.
Either way the rule needs to mirror Australian markets
A few years ago when the rule was brought in I recall stating my objection to Andrew Black at a horse meeting. He said that the rule was there simply for if Betfair miss the start by a few seconds and they would never put in-play an event that had a meaningful period expired.
Either there's been a change of policy (due to greed and little thought of the customer) or the staff making these on the spot decisions of whether to go in play or not have no idea of the implications of their decision.
Either way the rule needs to mirror Australian markets
I wonder when Betfair start their Sportsbook that they'll be standing bets 30mins in to the action at pre-off prices? Somehow I think not, but they expect the exchange layers to do just that. That makes it clear enough they are in the wrong, it's a joke policy which is being misused by Betfair.
Andrew Black I'm sure was being genuine when he told you that, but the simple fact is it's a real headache for Betfair Operations to find exact start times/void bets/turn in-play etc. so if they can get away with simply turning in-play (for example if a goal hasn't been scored in a football game) then they will and then hide behind the rules. The irony being in the case above that no goals in 28 mins is not far off the price movement you'd expect for a goal in the same time period.
Andrew Black I'm sure was being genuine when he told you that, but the simple fact is it's a real headache for Betfair Operations to find exact start times/void bets/turn in-play etc. so if they can get away with simply turning in-play (for example if a goal hasn't been scored in a football game) then they will and then hide behind the rules. The irony being in the case above that no goals in 28 mins is not far off the price movement you'd expect for a goal in the same time period.
It is not difficult to find start times. Any fool can find them.
Not always, and not always quickly (and it would have to be to exact second, and the market would have to remain suspended until they found the exact time to void bets from). Then they'd piss off people who bet thinking the market was in-play etc.
It's definitely what they should still do though, but if they ignore it then as far as they're concerned no error has been made and every dept has their targets to keep to...
It's definitely what they should still do though, but if they ignore it then as far as they're concerned no error has been made and every dept has their targets to keep to...
the staff making these on the spot decisions of whether to go in play or not have no idea of the implications of their decision.
The implication of their decision is they can ignore the error of missing the start...
The implication of their decision is they can ignore the error of missing the start...
A few years ago when the rule was brought in I recall stating my objection to Andrew Black at a horse meeting. He said that the rule was there simply for if Betfair miss the start by a few seconds and they would never put in-play an event that had a meaningful period expired.
I was told the same thing by someone within betfair and they insisted they would never do what they've done in this case. Betfair's ex-city clowns just stumble from one disaster to the next and there seems to be no one within the company capable of stopping the rot.
I was told the same thing by someone within betfair and they insisted they would never do what they've done in this case. Betfair's ex-city clowns just stumble from one disaster to the next and there seems to be no one within the company capable of stopping the rot.
Re OP I don't understand this, surely they don't need a rule change but instead to follow their own rules?
"Predict the result of this match. At kick off unmatched bets will be cancelled and the market turned in play."
If they don't do this, they've broken sentence 2 of their own rules.
If a match kicks off and BF miss it, they've broken their own rules and should be void all bets matched between the kick off and them noticing? In fact I'm sure this isn't just theory, I'm fairly sure they've done this in the past.
"Predict the result of this match. At kick off unmatched bets will be cancelled and the market turned in play."
If they don't do this, they've broken sentence 2 of their own rules.
If a match kicks off and BF miss it, they've broken their own rules and should be void all bets matched between the kick off and them noticing? In fact I'm sure this isn't just theory, I'm fairly sure they've done this in the past.
and if not .. given the frequency of screw ups in the inplay markets, it's bad enough if the existing rules are going against you, if the rules that go FOR the customers to give the customer at least some protection are being ignored as well, to really put the boot in, that's by any reasonable thinking just unacceptable.
I think it's fairly clear : betfair say they will cancel all unmatched bets at kick off, there is no need for a further rule as one already covers it, clear as day. If betfair do NOT do this, betfair have to sort it out, (e.g. void), not screw their customers and not give "free money" to people taking advantage of betfairs mistake.
They have voided in the past, the more I think about it the more I remember it happening. If I recall correctly when it's happened they, rather than going straight in play, have suspended for some minutes while they try to sort it out, voided some bets matched between a certain period, then let it go in play.
I think it's fairly clear : betfair say they will cancel all unmatched bets at kick off, there is no need for a further rule as one already covers it, clear as day. If betfair do NOT do this, betfair have to sort it out, (e.g. void), not screw their customers and not give "free money" to people taking advantage of betfairs mistake.
They have voided in the past, the more I think about it the more I remember it happening. If I recall correctly when it's happened they, rather than going straight in play, have suspended for some minutes while they try to sort it out, voided some bets matched between a certain period, then let it go in play.
Feb 2, 2012 -- 8:40PM, the man wrote:
They used to in the past, not any more...
Thanks, that will be why my experience differs from current practice.
I now know that there is a point to trading these games.
Report • Quote TheVis • February 2, 2012 2:53 PM GMT
It is not what they do at all. Depends on sport and where (aus wallet and footie are different) but if market is not cleared down at the off and then is turned in play at some stage then all bets stand.
Interesting because I had a big darts win voided recently due to exactly this scenario... or at least I assume it was this scenario, the email was incredibly vague.
It is not what they do at all. Depends on sport and where (aus wallet and footie are different) but if market is not cleared down at the off and then is turned in play at some stage then all bets stand.
Interesting because I had a big darts win voided recently due to exactly this scenario... or at least I assume it was this scenario, the email was incredibly vague.
Sometimes they void, sometimes they don't. Left to their judgement call which is often sorely lacking. I could understand letting bets stand if you missed a KO by 28 seconds assuming nothing had happened, but 28 minutes! Complete farce and lack of understanding.
I thought you needed 300 million or a hammersmith address to get a bet voided
It's wide open to abuse and preferential treatment of one customer over another.
It's frustrating from this side for sure.
There should be standard procedures for the various possible things that can go wrong that have been carefully thought through (involving people who know things well and understand our side) and are fair, at minimum basic training in a knowledge of them for the low level operators, and the line managers to be very aware of them. Thing goes wrong, you follow it. It shouldn't be up to the level of complaining from customers to get betfair to fairly follow their own rules and protect their customers. And if you wait too long it's too late to do anything anyway, as bets will have been settled.
You can get the impression however this side Betfair just firefight every situation as it comes up, how well things are handled are random, and if I understand the OP correctly, can be handled very badly.
Take this italian cruise ship. Other day on TV they were talking about changing rules so they have emergency drill on board ships BEFORE they leave port, rather than allowing a few days for them (apparently they are allowed that) as if disaster hits early on, you suddenly have people who don't have a clue what they are supposed to be doing and no time to tell them.
You wonder if sometimes the SS Betfair sets sail without knowing what to do when they "hit" something.
There should be standard procedures for the various possible things that can go wrong that have been carefully thought through (involving people who know things well and understand our side) and are fair, at minimum basic training in a knowledge of them for the low level operators, and the line managers to be very aware of them. Thing goes wrong, you follow it. It shouldn't be up to the level of complaining from customers to get betfair to fairly follow their own rules and protect their customers. And if you wait too long it's too late to do anything anyway, as bets will have been settled.
You can get the impression however this side Betfair just firefight every situation as it comes up, how well things are handled are random, and if I understand the OP correctly, can be handled very badly.
Take this italian cruise ship. Other day on TV they were talking about changing rules so they have emergency drill on board ships BEFORE they leave port, rather than allowing a few days for them (apparently they are allowed that) as if disaster hits early on, you suddenly have people who don't have a clue what they are supposed to be doing and no time to tell them.
You wonder if sometimes the SS Betfair sets sail without knowing what to do when they "hit" something.
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