BETFAIR SKIMMED 2.3 MILLION BY CROSSMATCHING

Was always a shameless profit grabbing exercise. not surprised at all at those numbers.

I'm wondering a little about crossmatching.
I've read how it's done, but can't really see how it's executed.

How can you match a win bet on one horse with another horse in the same market?

One thing seems clear though, a lot of the blame for funny price movements probably lies with Betfair's bot rather than traders bots, if I understand correctly.

It would be matched as a lay on all others, I think that's how it would work....

Beat The OverRound
07 Nov 11 04:24   

I'm wondering a little about crossmatching.
I've read how it's done, but can't really see how it's executed.

How can you match a win bet on one horse with another horse in the same market?

Lots of time you come on here with condescending remarks to other forumites when you think they are stupid/ignorant and you don't understand how crossmatching works !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joel, not neccesarrily on all others.  If there are enough prices to get the book over/under 100 %, it will be done on those horses and nothing on those with no prices up.

Aah ok, well I was close I guess

Superman III stuff - certainly preferable to their other 5cams as guess it does serve a purpose.

Lots of time you come on here with condescending remarks to other forumites when you think they are stupid/ignorant and you don't understand how crossmatching works !!!!!!!!!!!!!

We have clear evidence Eddie that you are a forum troll and it's wearing thin to be honest.

As to your other comments...

Condescending in your opinion.
Yes, sometimes they are stupid and ignorant when there is clear evidence they wish to ignore, but still push on with arguments regardless of the evidence. That's when I lose patience.

I have never lost patience with anyone who asks something or needs help, as the many private messagers can attest to.

The facts are, and you can deny them if you like, that nobody has actually lost any money from their Betfair account due to someone getting past Betfair security.
It has always been through a personal security issue.

I know nothing about cross matching, but the difference between you and I, is that I don't pretend to.

When were these figures published?

I've read how it's done, but can't really see how it's executed.

I know nothing about cross matching

These are both quotes from you on this thread.

I'd say crossmathing is fairly easy to understand.

You might like to explain in detail how it's done for everyone's benefit.

Where did this 2.3 million figure come from? Is it for the UK or the AUS operations?

there's a useful explanation at:

https://bdp.betfair.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=143&Itemid=62

and

https://bdp.betfair.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=237&Itemid=62

where were these numbers posted?

If I had to bet on it, I'd say those figures were for the Oz markets as betfair were forced to refund that money. Why would they broadcast what they made from UK markets which (if I'm correct) would be much more?

Thanks longbridge, that explains it.

Eddie are you there?
Eddie
Hello Eddie?

(crickets)

lol

As feck says - I suspect the uk operation is much more profitable.

It's ok to damge the 'exchange ecosystem' as long as betfair are doing the damaging it would seem

£2.43 * active customers 949,000 = 2,306,070

Reckon its pulled out of thin air, a very misleading figure to post with no backup to how its calculated.

If that was in Australia, any estimates for the rest of the site?

@brendanuk1 - I agree entirely.

As I recall (can't find the post explaining it right this moment) the £2.43 was only paid to those who'd placed a bet on an Aus XM market in since a particular date, which is going to be rather fewer people than total actives.

strange how you assume that the numbers must be wrong as less people will have been paid, yet appear to believe the £2.43 was a genuine, accurate figure, paying all profits back

strange how you assume that the numbers must be wrong as less people will have been paid, yet appear to believe the £2.43 was a genuine, accurate figure, paying all profits back

One is posting on internet by forum user with nothing to back it up. The other was announcement by Betfair confirmed by many users that 2.43 has been paid to some users due to Aus X matching.

The only thing that is known is that 2.43 was paid back to some users.

think i read somewhere that it will be paid 3 or 4 times a year aswell somewhere.

They weren't forced to pay it back, it was something they agreed on with the Tasmanian tote that betfair in Aus is licensed through when they introduced the cross matching.

I guess because the UK betfair is not located in the UK they can do what ever they like, if the 2,306,070 is correct and knowing the volume of the Aus markets i can only guess it must be at least 10 times this for the other markets.

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1.betfair to 789½p, helped by Numis Securities “buy” advice.
The value of wagers placed on Betfair’s betting exchange rose 13 per cent in the quarter just ended, suggesting interim results due next month should match forecasts, Numis said. “This momentum, with the promise of more to come as the sportsbook is added to the site, will, we believe contribute to improved investor sentiment in relation to Betfair,” it argued.
2.brendanuk1    when they start doing cross matching they 5 millon in first year

link?

ask betfair they post onhere

so no link?

goggle it or ask betfair

still no?

Okay, if someone could correct me if I have missed something.

Since cross-matching has come into action, I've found that small portions of my bets have been taken but I have also noticed eventually they are filled. 

At first, my assumption was, of course, user bots.  But the 'rhythm' of the matching indicated to me that it was the cross matching.

As a user and users I link with, more of my positions were being filled.  Thus, this is a positive point.

For betfair, it means an algorithm that is matching more bets thus creating more commission for them. 

So when you read "10K a day", it comes down to, yes, some mathematical skimming but, I believe an increase in commission for them since more bets matched.

So much for their "best execution" claims.
Their so called "ecosystem" is toxic.

There's something wrong with their explanation!

If as stated they are basically making 100% books in order to match bets, how is it they are making a profit?
I doubt very much the profit comes from commission generated by matched bets that would otherwise have gone unmatched, as that's a completely different kettle of fish.

Something doesn't add up in the calculations, I have a feeling they are creating books with their bot, and while the explanation assumes 100% market, the reality is they are making much better books!

To me this flys in the face of the whole crossmatching "intent".

The explanation is that more money matched at better prices in illiquid markets, but the reality being they are skimming percentages off market books which could have gone to the punter.

So what is really going on?
And how do they counter a big movement before all bets are matched?
There is only one way to guarantee this, but I don't want to speculate!

Do betfair still occasionally get free runners in markets with more than 2 outcomes or has this been changed? This will be generating much more for betfair than the fractions between prices, especially since being introduced into horse racing.

Why is cross matching never turned on in play tennis match odds?

Correction - I notice cross matching is on the tennis in play now. I'm sure its not always, unless its a recent development.

The "skim" comes from them only matching bets at odds that are available on their own odds ladder. When a cross match bet is available it is put up at the nearest increment on their odds ladder (rounded in their favour obviously). As bingo bongo points out, they also have the possibility of a skinner if a x-match only covers 2 out of more than 2 possible outcomes.

I've always found the cross matching thing a bit too technical for my liking although I understand the general concept.

But when betfair cross-match in running, are they effectively beating the clock in any way?

I doubt it silverback. I think the cross matcher only uses bets that have already struck the queue. They've no need to anyway. They've got hundreds of reps on course cheating on their behalf in exchange for 40%-60% of money won.

BTO, in a 2 runner market that looks like this

1.06 1.07
15 15.5

there may not be anyone laying 15s. Backing at 1.07 is the same as laying the other selection at 15.29 I think.

Anyone that backs 15 in the example above, when they could effectively be getting 15.29 is giving the difference to betfair.

brendanuk1     Joined: 12 Jan 02
Replies: 19029 07 Nov 11 21:55 
don't try to clever ask betfair

so it's basically BF arbing here on their own markets?

I think the "cash out" function is a brilliant and exciting new innovation, that they have delivered for the benefit of their customers. On that basis I have submitted the following to the web chat:

"In the horse racing markets, I have recently noticed that the horses I back before the race sometimes shorten in price during the race - but by the time I have pressed all the buttons and submitted the bets to "green up", either the price has changed or (if it's on ATR) sometimes the race is actually over. So it would be great if you could introduce the exciting and innovative "cash out" facility to the horse racing markets to enhance my in-play experience. Many thanks.

My last two posts have been deleted by Betfair from this thread.
Therefore one can only conclude that my speculation was absolutely true.
If nobody sees this Betfair certainly will, because they'll delete it.

So for the benefit of Betfair:

Thankyou for the invitations and various events.
Thankyou to my account manager Alex, you did a wonder job of looking after me.

Goodbye.

If this post remains, to forumites, I suggest you do your own investigations re my recent discoveies.

I have had many heated debates over the years, but no malice was ever intended or held.
Every approach I posted was done honestly and in good faith, and they work as long as they are not poached by the greedy blue monster.
I wish everyone well.

P.S. Betfair please do not call me and ask why I'm not using the site, you won't like the abuse that you deserve.

lol, and you accuse others of paranoia, BTO . I only hope it's a proper goodbye and not Au revoir

Let me get this straight... is BTO accusing BF of accessing his account in order to steal his methods and use them to enhance their cross matching operation?

When BF access user accounts I would not have thought it would show up on "my security" anyway, but I may be wrong.

Click and Win BTO, Click and Win - it's that easy remember!

Here are some facts:

Recent payment was of GBP 2.43 or account holder's currency equivalent.
Payment was notated in people's account something along the lines of "Aus Cross-Matching Residual payment/distribution" or something similar.
To qualify for said payment, customers had to have wagered on any AUS-licenced event where the Cross-Matching account was active.
There have been 27k+ events since the inception of this account in Dec-10.
BF Aus are obligated by the Tasmanian Regulator to return all funds to customers. Not to be dangled as a carrot/reward or dressed up as a "bonus". And distributed evenly.
The amount "allegedly skimmed" in this thread has been over-stated x10.
The account can have winning days AND losing days.


There are your facts.

"When BF access user accounts I would not have thought it would show up on "my security" anyway, but I may be wrong."

I am aware of at least 2 people who have eventually been sacked by Betfair for accessing other people's accounts, learning their methodologies and/or bets and passing on the information to other parties.

I'm also not sure about the actual legality of Betfair's cross-matching bot/scam. If you place a bet on a runner in an event at a specific price, surely the exchange has no real rights to alter the terms and conditions of the said bet whether or not its in your favour. In the end they are manipulating your bet to suit themselves rather than the general userbase. Otherwise they wouldn't be making a profit. Seems to me this is a dubious practice at best and one of the reasons I no longer bet here.

When you submit a bet it can be matched at better odds without the cross matching being operational. Why would anyone not want that?

Cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection with the process by which gambling is conducted.

Me : "When BF access user accounts I would not have thought it would show up on "my security" anyway, but I may be wrong."

DrWhom : I am aware of at least 2 people who have eventually been sacked by Betfair for accessing other people's accounts, learning their methodologies and/or bets and passing on the information to other parties.

Yep I agree DrWhom that that does exist*, but I don't think it would show up on 'my security'?

*That's the reason why I think Feck's proposal of a separate password to be given to BF employees at the account holders discretion is a good/necessary one.

That's the reason why I think Feck's proposal of a separate password to be given to BF employees at the account holders discretion is a good/necessary one.

Thanks Trevh. Incredible that it's taken so long for that to be seconded.