i am tired of people complaining about PC

in addtion from the perspective of betfair, it makes sense to ban the proffesionals. the main selling point of betfair over its competitors is that it gives a better odd compared to the traditional book makers.  the recretional punter doesnt care about trading they want to bet with good value. end of story.

the fact there are a lot of profesional punters making big money means they are squeezing the odds to the point which is in line with the traditional bookmakers. this means no reason for people to change bookmaker- no growth for betfair.

You know the difference between a book of 100% on Betfair and a book from 105% up to over 150% offers from the bookies? The professional bettors on Betfair bring you the big advantage of an full filled 100% book. If you exclude them, you get here the same b*s* odds you get from every bookie, look at Betfairs multiple odds. On the exchange only the customers with money making the odds, no other can do that. MONEY MAKE THE ODDS!!! Kick the pro's out and you will see very quick every value goes down the hill.

The pros aren't being kicked out.

henok-  most punters who lose disproportionately tend to bet in-play , it's a well knopwn shark tank where the strongest survive  and is generally removed from what many would class as gambling/punting/betting  etc..it's more of a challenge/skill where the winners take all .

If you're talking about prices generally on this site and any other like it  ,then you have a 50/50 chance before commission - everybody does .

Say if you didn't pay commission,you shouldn't lose a single penny -that's obviously not the case with bookies,they work to a book .

90% of pro's are probably in running.

That is what happens in real life with people who work actual work which is significant for society.


I have always found this kind of perception interesting.

It sounds bitter, as if you are really thinking, how dare someone get something I cant and if they can, I really hope someone takes it away from them so I feel better about myself for not being able to do it myself.

As far as taxes and society goes, ask most successful entrepreneurs in all walks of business life and they mostly agree, the way to create enterprise and economic expansion for the highest good of all is a low taxation across the board.

So when the debate almost has died down you start a new PC-thread?:)

Anyway, if you want better value for recreational punters. The thing you should want the most is significantly lower commission for everyone. With 1% commission Betfair would go from very rarely to quite often offering best price on the match odds of major football matches. But that's not going to happen until Betfair get a decent competitor. And if anything you should want more professional players on here in fierce competition with each other. If one pro is allowed to run a market on his own you are unlikely to get competitive prices.

That is what happens in real life with people who work actual work which is significant for society.
______________________________
most jobs   are not  significant , we would survive most happily without all these  non-jobs -

irritating people in departments  wanting you to change gas companies/take out a loan /change windows/take out an insurance.

Even the Postman - why does he need to deliver mail every day ?

Yeah, what noble and worthwile goals does society have anyway? To me it seems to be all about maximizing our production and consumption of crap?

Do employees of the Coca Cola company make a postive contribution to society in your opinion?

thread thinly veiled as i am losing my money now i get jelous of people winning



would you be ashamed of yourself if you won the lottery


i tell you this anyone that can make long term profits at betting is far more skillful than some ejit thats got handed  a stupid degree in media studys


Society is a load of balls society likes to say what we can and cant do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkoNO_fZc3E

Superb thread, except for the minor point that you can pay pc after 6k lifetime, not 250k. Bet the retarded original poster has never made a profit in their life(If you cant work it out, that could equate to just 100 quid per month - some PRO! ) , let alone one which could become liable for pc, or else they might know that.

This is definitely a thinly disguised "I don't make any money and I'm jealous of those who do" type thread.

Coachbuster
Date Joined:     08 Apr 06
Blogger: Coachbuster's blog
Add contact | Send message
25 Sep 11 11:23 Joined: 08 Apr 06 | Topic/replies: 14,972 | Blogger: Coachbuster's blog
henok-  most punters who lose disproportionately tend to bet in-play , it's a well knopwn shark tank where the strongest survive  and is generally removed from what many would class as gambling/punting/betting  etc..it's more of a challenge/skill where the winners take all .

If you're talking about prices generally on this site and any other like it  ,then you have a 50/50 chance before commission - everybody does .

Say if you didn't pay commission,you shouldn't lose a single penny -that's obviously not the case with bookies,they work to a book .

90% of pro's are probably in running.

Coach the thing is gambling is illusion, u know it is a dead end for  gamblers,(especially if they are gambling a lot).
However i didnt say gamblers can make money on betfair without the pros, or betfair claimed so. what i am saying is betfair wants to keep its status as a the best odd offerer. Dont the customers notice that after the commision the odds may be similar to the other offers? i dont know. it is a marketing invetnion that betfair adopted. and i think it worked for them.
for that purpose they have to bring in more recretional punters who dont have a good grip of  bookmaking to offer more generous odds which, at themoment is now taken by the pros before it is delivered to teh 'prefered' otehr end of teh gamble- the casual punter.

funkymonkey
Date Joined:     12 Jun 04
Add contact | Send message
25 Sep 11 11:32 Joined: 12 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 290 | Blogger: funkymonkey's blog
That is what happens in real life with people who work actual work which is significant for society.


I have always found this kind of perception interesting.

It sounds bitter, as if you are really thinking, how dare someone get something I cant and if they can, I really hope someone takes it away from them so I feel better about myself for not being able to do it myself.

As far as taxes and society goes, ask most successful entrepreneurs in all walks of business life and they mostly agree, the way to create enterprise and economic expansion for the highest good of all is a low taxation across the board.

Come on man, what are u talking about? this is gambling, u know. In gambling i dont think there are many (non foolish) people who would be happy when somebody on the other end takes their hard earned money because he predicted something correctly. this is not like u purchasing a good. i am very angry every time somebody takes my money in gambling whether bbokmaker or anotehr punter. however i am very happy when i take somebodys hard earned money. However the happiness is not like when i do something for my employer and get paid which is unspoiled happiness. So to make it short i am happy if somebody else takes the money from a punter who took my money. i am not happy with the opposite though[;)].

The thing u mentioned about enterpruners saying something about tax is very short sighted i think u better look at it. we all can not be enterpruners and we can not always says the good for eneterpuner can be good for the entir society. we can talk alot about that but i dont want to go into that.
sorry with spelling and grammer.

Modjadji
25 Sep 11 12:34 Joined: 02 Jan 11 | Topic/replies: 1,013 | Blogger: Modjadji's blog
Superb thread, except for the minor point that you can pay pc after 6k lifetime, not 250k. Bet the retarded original poster has never made a profit in their life(If you cant work it out, that could equate to just 100 quid per month - some PRO! ) , let alone one which could become liable for pc, or else they might know that.

This is definitely a thinly disguised "I don't make any money and I'm jealous of those who do" type thread.
Rate reply:
| report block user


I wanted to say something bad to u but even that is too much for u.

Well, what a superb response, how can I argue with that.

I've been well and truly put in my place.

Enjoy losing money and being jealous of those who don't.

good that u know ur place. try to improve life is always about improving. now thank me for telling u that.

henok- i agree you can find better odds elsewhere or atleast as good on certain horses etc without the commission - that much is clear

Why people persist with betfair as a place to bet I don't know? I constantly see £1,000s being matched when there are far better prices on the high street, a click away. Either laziness or punters who own a laddies account and don't have the noggle to open 11 others to guarantee value.

So to make it short i am happy if somebody else takes the money from a punter who took my money. i am not happy with the opposite though.


Henok, can you not see how dysfunctional that statement is?  You began this thread preaching the moral high ground about taxes and contribution to society and now you have basically said you are fine scooping up your winnings from anyone but if you happen to lose, you want the person who took your money to then lose it so you can feel better about it.

How is that not bitterness?

If you truly do have a moral issue with whose money is being won and lost, why even come onto an exchange in the first place?

I think we are straying from the main issue here.

As I said on my thread are bots destroying betfair, the main problem we have is that Betfair
is not a democracy, its a monopoly. Average punters don't really get a voice anymore.

Given that the main contributors on this forum tend to be bot players and or pc payers, whenever
someone raises the issue that the average punter isn't particularly sympathetic with bot users who complain about having to pay a large amount of tax, he/she tends to get shouted down.

in addtion from the perspective of betfair, it makes sense to ban the proffesionals. the main selling point of betfair over its competitors is that it gives a better odd compared to the traditional book makers.  the recretional punter doesnt care about trading they want to bet with good value. end of story.

the fact there are a lot of profesional punters making big money means they are squeezing the odds to the point which is in line with the traditional bookmakers. this means no reason for people to change bookmaker- no growth for betfair.

.....................................


With respect that shows a complete lack of understanding.  It's the professionals that give better odds, not bookmakers, not recreational punters and not Betfair.  Recreational punters "trade" aswell as gamble.  That's what Betfair enables them to do.

The professional punters dont squeeze the odds, they improve the odds and the traditional bookmakers copy their prices. 

You clearly don't have any idea of what you are talking about and that's not a surprise, because that's why you are a recreational amateur.  You also have no respect for the pros.  That's OK imo, just pointing out you clearly don't.

Why don't we just get rid of all the top tennis players or darts  players by deducting them extra points than run of the mill players and then if you play against them you can moan at them for moaning that they are not treated fairly against you. 

That's what the PC does.  It means some people are paying significantly more for doing exactly the same thing as others and that is inherently unfair.

What has happened on here in the last 9 weeks to the detriment of the recreational punter?

funkymonkey
25 Sep 11 15:50 Joined: 12 Jun 04 | Topic/replies: 291 | Blogger: funkymonkey's blog
So to make it short i am happy if somebody else takes the money from a punter who took my money. i am not happy with the opposite though.


Henok, can you not see how dysfunctional that statement is?  You began this thread preaching the moral high ground about taxes and contribution to society and now you have basically said you are fine scooping up your winnings from anyone but if you happen to lose, you want the person who took your money to then lose it so you can feel better about it.

How is that not bitterness?

If you truly do have a moral issue with whose money is being won and lost, why even come onto an exchange in the first place?

funkymonkey- i did not try to claim the moral high ground. rather the opposite. the tax in society and the PC in betfair are there to be paid, for differnt reasons, but they are very imporant for the well functioning of their respective system.  acknowledging this is totaly difernt from saying that i am happy or not happy with contributing to these two schemes(which i didnt mention here in my previous posts).

about the bitterness issue, u can call that whatever u want. i dont mind. i accept that i am agreening when i do a betting transaction to lose my money when the bet fail. However i am still not happy (or even feeling casual) when i lose money in gambling and somebody uses that money. I think that is how many people feel whetehr they admit it or not. that is the main reason for people to chase their loss in gambling. FYI i dont feel the same when i pay for a good or service.
from the moral point of view, betting is not the best i can do with my time i am happy as long as i can get some money. i am not perfect[;)]

mythical prince- agreed

Active customers are down 19% in the last quarter.  It may be coincidental. 

Offered liquidity is not what it was post PC3.

There are also all sorts of stages and aspirations in the punter spectrum.  Not simply "recreational" AND "professional"

The recreational I dont have a clue about betting or odds punter will more than likely be down at the local Ladbrokes shop or intrigued by Ray Winstone's spinning head or PPs decision to refund bets if Arsenal beat Man U, than on Betfair, working out how to "back" and "lay" and baffled by such things as liabilities.

One recent change has made BF worse for all players, including recreational: Acculmulators have been removed, so now you have to place your doubles and trebles in the Multiples section getting much worse prices (if you choose to place them with BF at all). Anything has become better recently JTG?

With respect that shows a complete lack of understanding.  It's the professionals that give better odds, not bookmakers, not recreational punters and not Betfair.  Recreational punters "trade" aswell as gamble.  That's what Betfair enables them to do.

The professional punters dont squeeze the odds, they improve the odds and the traditional bookmakers copy their prices. 

You clearly don't have any idea of what you are talking about and that's not a surprise, because that's why you are a recreational amateur.  You also have no respect for the pros.  That's OK imo, just pointing out you clearly don't.

Why don't we just get rid of all the top tennis players or darts  players by deducting them extra points than run of the mill players and then if you play against them you can moan at them for moaning that they are not treated fairly against you. 

That's what the PC does.  It means some people are paying significantly more for doing exactly the same thing as others and that is inherently unfair.

I feel to the contrary clydebank. I really dont think u understood what u are saying let alone what i am saying. let me decipher it for u.

in every unbalanced bet  there is one party who gets a very good deal and a very bad deal. with recretional punters this cancels after many trades. when professional punters are there, they selectively take the good offers and leave the bad offers.in adtion the book of a profesional punter is balanced which i think at the ned of the day will end up with a profit most of the time. true a profesional punter may offer better deal compared to the next bookmaker. but they dont offer a deal better than the next better deal available from the casual punter. that one will be taken by one of the active pros and the usual punter is offered less genorous deal for the causl punter.
If u have a better eplanation i am very eager to read that.
i dont think i have to respect any pro. why u jumped to the point of asking respect if u think u are pro is beyond me.

the thenis analogy, i didnt undestand it. sorry

The current interface is loaded against the recreational punters. They're faced with the choice of waiting behind a massive lump or taking worse odds. That's if they've not already been cheated out of their money in-running.

I didnt expect you to understand or admit you didn't.  Your response is just nonsense

You don't have to respect any pro at all but when you are speaking about a subject they are professional in and you are not, it might be worth considering that they know what they are talking about and you don't.

CLYDEBANK29
25 Sep 11 18:21 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 1,909 | Blogger: CLYDEBANK29's blog
You don't have to respect any pro at all but when you are speaking about a subject they are professional in and you are not, it might be worth considering that they know what they are talking about and you don't.

I really dont understand why u are acting like a child. how old are u? do ur paents know that u are using the internt unattended? why do u think u want to hid behind this kind of defnece. why do u think a pro will know something about betting and others do not? I am waiting the "pro's" answer please

"Mr.Anderson Joined: 25 Sep 11 17:56   

"One recent change has made BF worse for all players, including recreational: Acculmulators have been removed, so now you have to place your doubles and trebles in the Multiples section getting much worse prices (if you choose to place them with BF at all). Anything has become better recently JTG?"


Spot on, but don't expect JTG to respond, because he is an apologist for BF, especially regarding the pc, so you won't get him replying when asked an awkward question about them.

I'm not going to enter into any further discussions with an idiot

CLYDEBANK29
25 Sep 11 18:30 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 1,910 | Blogger: CLYDEBANK29's blog
I'm not going to enter into any further discussions with an idiot
Glad u said that. thankuverymuch u aschole

Coming from someone who didnt even know the pc applied after 6k instead of 250k, henok, I think you'd be better off keeping quiet tbh.

Modjadji
Date Joined:     02 Jan 11
Add contact | Send message
25 Sep 11 18:34 Joined: 02 Jan 11 | Topic/replies: 1,036 | Blogger: Modjadji's blog
Coming from someone who didnt even know the pc applied after 6k instead of 250k, henok, I think you'd be better off keeping quiet tbh

modajadji thanks for reminding me that
i respect people but when they talk rubbish i want to talk rubbish with them. when theyare cool i am cool

And btw, I am tired of people complaining about people who complain about the pc. There is a remarkably easy solution. DON'T OPEN THE THREAD.

i am tired of people complaining about people complaining about PC

lol

it is the same otherwise. how is that dificult to see?
And btw, I am tired of people complaining about people who are complaining about people who complain about the pc. There is a remarkably easy solution. DON'T OPEN THE THREAD.

TheInvestor2
25 Sep 11 18:40 Joined: 28 May 11 | Topic/replies: 634 | Blogger: TheInvestor2's blog
lol

you got there first

I thought you could pay the PC after being £1001 in profit.

"You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the lifetime of your account, you satisfy the following criteria:

    Your account is in profit;
    Your total charges generated are less than 20%† of gross profits; and
    You bet in more than 250 markets.

Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:

    Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the lifetime of your account will be excluded from the calculation; and
    Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge."

I'm tired of people complaining about people who are complainging about people who are complaining about people who are complaining about PC.

I can do this all day

hazel, the key is "Each customer will have a lifetime allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge."

so if you win £5000 in 250 markets, winning £20 each time, and never losing, you will not have paid any PC yet.

TheInvestor2
25 Sep 11 18:51 Joined: 28 May 11 | Topic/replies: 635 | Blogger: TheInvestor2's blog
I'm tired of people complaining about people who are complainging about people who are complaining about people who are complaining about PC.
good one

investor is that someone said you pay PC after winning just £6000?

investor is that why someone said you pay PC after winning just £6000?

I don't think the issue is with people who do or don't contribute to society. you could say the same about people who play the stockmarket, or trade on futures, or any kind of person who plays betfair. gambling is a fundamentally useless activity in itself. The only thing it can do is give you a buzz or make you money. or make you lose money

And I don't think its to do with resenting professionals either. The point is, if I go and play roger federer down the my local park, he's going to beat me without any need for an unfair advantage.

unfortunately the same isn't true for most betfair punters. given that at least 95 percent (probably higher) of betfair punters input their bets manually, is it not an unfair advantage that in the majority of markets they are up against a computer, a machine that never sleeps? that never gets tired?

I also don't buy into the argument that why don't these people use bots as well. for me to give into that argument gets into the lines of you need a masters degree in information technology to play betfair. where does it end? what if you join the army of bot users and then find your bot is redundant? someone has just brought out a smarter bot. it just becomes an arms race.

essentially its not betfair anymore. I don't know what it is, botfair or betunfair, but its not betfair.

mythical prince, like i mentioned on another thread, I think Betfair should build basic bot functionality into the site, or provide their own app, as purple has done (although I used it and didn't think it was very good).

The idea that anyone who has a bot gains an unfair advantage is simply ludicrous. It's simply a case of people making an extra effort to get an edge over other users. What about if I get sky, or read up a stats site, or investigate if a side has had injuries in recent games, is that unfair on people who don't bother also

(And before anyone asks, I have never had a bot myself)

Prior to the 18th July it was predicted that PC3 was the end of this exchange. So many were adamant that tumbleweed was the only possible end result.

This place is no better no worse...still 100% books on all the key markets when I look.

it has certainly changed a lot more (in the tumbleweed direction) than when pc1 and pc2 began.