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As far as I remember, almost all of the UK Sky televised EPL and Championship games used to have a 5 second delay.
The most recent ones, though - Tottenham Liverpool, Man U Chelsea on the weekend, and Ipswich Coventry last night have had an 8 second delay.
Is this a new policy of Betfair's?
The most recent ones, though - Tottenham Liverpool, Man U Chelsea on the weekend, and Ipswich Coventry last night have had an 8 second delay.
Is this a new policy of Betfair's?
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I posted about this at the weekend but didn't get any response so I called BF on Sunday afternoon and asked them.
The guy I spoke to said that because of the problems they had with the football markets on Saturday afternoon (the in-play un-managed markets were suspended for a large part of the games) they were taking a safety first approach to the games on Sunday.
I don't quite see the connection between the two myself but that is what he said. The strange thing is that I am 99% certain the Rangers v Celtic game was only 5 seconds.
When I asked him if the 8 second delay was a one-off policy for that day he said he couldn't promise that and they would be looking at it on a game by game basis.
I think its possibly a longer term policy as the two Champions League games I looked at last week were both 8 seconds as well (despite being covered by radio).
Personally, I think 8 seconds is too long and told him so.
The guy I spoke to said that because of the problems they had with the football markets on Saturday afternoon (the in-play un-managed markets were suspended for a large part of the games) they were taking a safety first approach to the games on Sunday.
I don't quite see the connection between the two myself but that is what he said. The strange thing is that I am 99% certain the Rangers v Celtic game was only 5 seconds.
When I asked him if the 8 second delay was a one-off policy for that day he said he couldn't promise that and they would be looking at it on a game by game basis.
I think its possibly a longer term policy as the two Champions League games I looked at last week were both 8 seconds as well (despite being covered by radio).
Personally, I think 8 seconds is too long and told him so.
Cheers Gin.
I think it's pretty disastrous for in-play traders, and totally unnecessary for the main UK televised games.
I think it's pretty disastrous for in-play traders, and totally unnecessary for the main UK televised games.
Are you still keeping tabs on turnover in the live games? It would be interesting to see if the 8 second delay affected volumes.
If your worried about delays in commentary and video of sporting events then take your smart phone down to trackside/stadiumside/courtside and bet in real time, apart from that theres no other options matey
.
.
Mind you using hidden cameras and mics, wireless technology a van and a quick website you have a pirate
sports service but don't shoot me its just a thought of fancy[;)]
sports service but don't shoot me its just a thought of fancy[;)]
Gin,
I'll check out those volumes at the end of the week.
Would undoubtedly have some adverse effect.
I'll check out those volumes at the end of the week.
Would undoubtedly have some adverse effect.
Cheers mate. I think you are right. Have a good time in Perth[;)]
bf_f - you have the wrong end of the stick. We are talking about bet placement delays not picture delays.
bf_f - you have the wrong end of the stick. We are talking about bet placement delays not picture delays.
Does this mean a punter with an Iphone or similar at the actual game has a massive advantage overthose at home on a laptop?
seems by that answer that they are more worried by suspend monkeys not reacting quick enough rather than anything else
why is it disastrous ? it's to stop Cheats and fast pic wallahs !! It's the same as having a strong padlock on your shed - you wouldnt tie an elastic band around it !
Is everybody using BF subject to the same time delays?
Coach,
But 5 seconds should be ample to stop the cheats and fast picture users. Given the huge amounts matched on these games (and I am only referring to the UK games shown on (UK) sky - I know that the 3pm EPL games, for instance, have always had an 8 second delay), Betfair could easily have a representative at every game who could send a fast signal to the suspend software.
The problem with having 8 seconds delay is that it is very difficult, especially near the end of a game, to be sure of getting bets matched at a reasonable price. Of course, you can just slam them in 4 ticks inside the current market, but that's a quick route to the poorhouse.
But 5 seconds should be ample to stop the cheats and fast picture users. Given the huge amounts matched on these games (and I am only referring to the UK games shown on (UK) sky - I know that the 3pm EPL games, for instance, have always had an 8 second delay), Betfair could easily have a representative at every game who could send a fast signal to the suspend software.
The problem with having 8 seconds delay is that it is very difficult, especially near the end of a game, to be sure of getting bets matched at a reasonable price. Of course, you can just slam them in 4 ticks inside the current market, but that's a quick route to the poorhouse.
Contrarian- i think part of the problem are the slow pictures we receive in the first place via digital links, cable tv is so far behind old analogue tv and radio it's shocking .
Plus you have to allow time for the Suspend operator to spring into action - i often wonder if he is keeping check on more than one game
Plus you have to allow time for the Suspend operator to spring into action - i often wonder if he is keeping check on more than one game
On feckfair bets are provisionally matched immediately but only become fully matched if no suspension takes place within the next t seconds. Cheatfair consider such an arrangement to be an abomination.
I quite definitely don't regard 8 secs as being too long. It's infuriating when your money gets taken on impossible scores.
I lost a load of money the other day when I placed a bet and for some reason it was counting down even though a goal had been scored. I couldn't see any way to cancel it! So I backed an impossible score. In retrospect I should have killed my Internet connection!
It wouldn't have worked.
Once you press the button Betfair get the order a split second and only then does the countdown begin.
Once you press the button Betfair get the order a split second and only then does the countdown begin.
It wouldn't have helped Cosmic as the bet is sent to betfair immediately but isn't placed in the queue until the countdown is up. It isn't possible to cancel during the countdown, a fact that that many use to their advantage in the flies-round-sh1te markets. If it was a managed market the suspension should have saved you though. If they suspended late you should claim them.
I can't remember what I did. Perhaps it was my fault. On a previous occasion I'd left an unmatched bet on 0-0 and when a goal was scored it was way above the current odds. But it was taken just before a goal was scored (or rather just after a goal was scored, but before it showed it on my TV!).
So in the main I don't bother with inplay except at half time.
So in the main I don't bother with inplay except at half time.
There's been quite a lot of hoovering after the goal incidents lately, I welcome a longer delay personally. With the new suspensionless wiping of markets which is happening randomly, I suspect suspend operatives are having to manage more than one match each at times to cope with the 100% increase in in-play matches.
Have also noticed that a lot of bets are coming in after the goal asking to back impossible score lines, possibly due to suspensionless wipes.
Have also noticed that a lot of bets are coming in after the goal asking to back impossible score lines, possibly due to suspensionless wipes.
Bf_fananatic : If your worried about delays in commentary and video of sporting events then take your smart phone down to trackside/stadiumside/courtside and bet in real time, apart from that theres no other options matey.
That's the problem, not the solution. With a 5 second delay punters at the stadium are attempting to lay say 0-0 after the goal goes in but before the suspension, aka cheating.
That's the problem, not the solution. With a 5 second delay punters at the stadium are attempting to lay say 0-0 after the goal goes in but before the suspension, aka cheating.
I'm not sure what the answer to this is, tbh.
8 seconds is very hard to work with. but 5 seconds was resulting in hoovering at some english games last season. and hoovering is the death of in play liquidity. so..?
there may be some solution involving a 5 second delay and automatic realtime reverse-settlement of anything matched in the last 2 or 3 of those seconds on a confirmed suspension/cancellation. so the sequence would be countdown/matched(pending)/matched (confirmed) - but that just seems horribly convoluted at first glance.
so maybe this is just one of those problems where there actually is no entirely satisfactory answer.
8 seconds is very hard to work with. but 5 seconds was resulting in hoovering at some english games last season. and hoovering is the death of in play liquidity. so..?
there may be some solution involving a 5 second delay and automatic realtime reverse-settlement of anything matched in the last 2 or 3 of those seconds on a confirmed suspension/cancellation. so the sequence would be countdown/matched(pending)/matched (confirmed) - but that just seems horribly convoluted at first glance.
so maybe this is just one of those problems where there actually is no entirely satisfactory answer.
per Trevh's post where the word "cheating" is, again, brought up.
It seems expects a level playing field for everyone when it comes to in-running. Well, it is not going to exist and, further, why should it?
If someone is going to travel to the track, the stadium, the court to watch an event and feel that gives them 'the edge', power to them. And if you feel it's the way to go, buy the ticket yourself.
The bottom-line is risk analysis on an individuals part.
If you feel that you won't be able to monitor the event to protect yourself, then don't play. Simple.
I'm privy to a twitter account that has someone at the paddock of every track. Three to four twitters per race come in with views on the horses. Some of this analysis comes over ATR or WH a few minutes later. Am I "cheating" with this analysis since I got it first?
You go in to trade on a photo finish. Someone will know before you.
You bet on the Mercury's. Someone will know before you.
In-running is no different.
Complaining about hoovering: you know they are there. You put up a 1.04 lay in tennis wanting it to be matched, hoping for a bounce. And you do this:
- aware that the player you are laying are a point away from winning.
- aware that 'courtsiders' will possibly have an 'edge'.
So it is hard to complain since you have entered into a position aware of these factors.
Sorry that I don't endorse the "fair for everyone" since the reality, it doesn't and won't exist.
Assess the risk and bet accordingly.
SHAPESHIFTER
realistis since 2003
It seems expects a level playing field for everyone when it comes to in-running. Well, it is not going to exist and, further, why should it?
If someone is going to travel to the track, the stadium, the court to watch an event and feel that gives them 'the edge', power to them. And if you feel it's the way to go, buy the ticket yourself.
The bottom-line is risk analysis on an individuals part.
If you feel that you won't be able to monitor the event to protect yourself, then don't play. Simple.
I'm privy to a twitter account that has someone at the paddock of every track. Three to four twitters per race come in with views on the horses. Some of this analysis comes over ATR or WH a few minutes later. Am I "cheating" with this analysis since I got it first?
You go in to trade on a photo finish. Someone will know before you.
You bet on the Mercury's. Someone will know before you.
In-running is no different.
Complaining about hoovering: you know they are there. You put up a 1.04 lay in tennis wanting it to be matched, hoping for a bounce. And you do this:
- aware that the player you are laying are a point away from winning.
- aware that 'courtsiders' will possibly have an 'edge'.
So it is hard to complain since you have entered into a position aware of these factors.
Sorry that I don't endorse the "fair for everyone" since the reality, it doesn't and won't exist.
Assess the risk and bet accordingly.
SHAPESHIFTER
realistis since 2003
Had there never been an exchange and bookmakers were hoovering ir online bets there would have been an outcry. Betfair the bookmaker are doing exactly that with the blessing of the "set up to ensure fairness in betting" GC. S C U M.
Betfair make no attempt to educate people regarding ir. Nor did they ever implement magician's suggestion of allowing them to separate ir & pre-event bets in the P/L section. They really are only too happy for the customers that really do make the site tick to be mugged instead of looking after them and trying to hang on to them. CITY S C U M.
mrbojangles : Is it cheating or just having an edge?
To answer you and Shapeshifter, IMO it doesn't really matter what name we give it, that's just a label, but the bottom line is if court side (or any other method) punters are allowed to beat the clock and take honest monies waiting in the queue after the event, then BF will shortly cease to exist. The betting exchange ethos relies on exactly that - exchanging bets, not a smash and grab of apparently free money after the event. If markets were allowed to be hoovered on an ever more regular basis then they would die fairly quickly, as Presidente suggested above.
To answer you and Shapeshifter, IMO it doesn't really matter what name we give it, that's just a label, but the bottom line is if court side (or any other method) punters are allowed to beat the clock and take honest monies waiting in the queue after the event, then BF will shortly cease to exist. The betting exchange ethos relies on exactly that - exchanging bets, not a smash and grab of apparently free money after the event. If markets were allowed to be hoovered on an ever more regular basis then they would die fairly quickly, as Presidente suggested above.
Heard you can do it listening to local radio commentary, tv pics are so delayed these days.
Of course, if eight seconds is needed on a game to prevent hoovering then that is welcome.
In my response to the OP though I was talking about the big televised live games (ie. EPL on Sunday afternoons and CL games midweek).
These have been trundling along for years now on a 5 second delay with only the very rare occasion that a suspend hasn’t kicked in on time. Suddenly, it seems that Betfair can’t monitor these games so effectively now. Perhaps they have reduced staff?
In my response to the OP though I was talking about the big televised live games (ie. EPL on Sunday afternoons and CL games midweek).
These have been trundling along for years now on a 5 second delay with only the very rare occasion that a suspend hasn’t kicked in on time. Suddenly, it seems that Betfair can’t monitor these games so effectively now. Perhaps they have reduced staff?
beating the suspend isn't "having an edge" any more than insider trading is. the countdown and the suspend are there to stop people betting after key events. if people can't have confidence in them, IP becomes impossible because no one will put money up.
So your telling me Sky have an 8 second delay? So Im watching a premier league game with my Blackberry phone and see the ball go in or a penalty given i can click bet and get matched?
Sky is about 4 seconds behind live.
The 8 second delay we are talking about is in bet placement.
The 8 second delay we are talking about is in bet placement.
how do you know sky is 4 seconds behind live? just been trying to google it and failing
Yes, 4 seconds is about right. Depends on how you get your Sky pictures, of course.
but how do you know its 4s
would you be able to tell if this season its gone to 6s?
How often do you monitor it?
would you be able to tell if this season its gone to 6s? How often do you monitor it?
What about the delay with foreign matches that are in-play but not on sky.
Rooney effing and geoffing wouldnt have made sky but an extra delay in without telling us?
Im gonna try this. I have a few friends that watch every game there team plays. 2 different premier league teams.
Brendan,
Every time Arsenal play at home in one of the Sky televised games, I can count the delay because I can hear the crowd cheer from where I live when a goal goes in. Admittedly, though, this season it tends to be groans rather than cheers that I hear.
Every time Arsenal play at home in one of the Sky televised games, I can count the delay because I can hear the crowd cheer from where I live when a goal goes in. Admittedly, though, this season it tends to be groans rather than cheers that I hear.
Just to be slightly obtuse, remember it takes sound five seconds to carry a mile, so you do need to be VERY close to the ground for that to be live!
Lori,
I'm within about 350 metres (1 sec of sound travel). Obviously, if I were much further away, it would be inaudible.
I'm within about 350 metres (1 sec of sound travel). Obviously, if I were much further away, it would be inaudible.
Cool.
(I mentioned it because I used to be able to hear Coventry goals from around a mile away - incredible though that might sound on many levels)
(I mentioned it because I used to be able to hear Coventry goals from around a mile away - incredible though that might sound on many levels)
If I'd thought about it, I'd have listened on the radio for the odd effect of hearing the goals on radio before hearing the cheer live!!!
Radiowaves move quickly enough. I once heard that if you listen to the bongs of Big Ben live on radio, you actually hear the bongs marginally before the people physically standing right next to the clock itself. We're only talking microseconds here, but still...
Sod 8 second delay, what about X minute delay. Once again betfair have compltely screwed up the inplay markets tonight, the games are a sea of "suspends" [>o] This is becoming a habit. What the **** is the excuse this time?
there must be protection for the recreational punter from the fast picture nerds
Back to 5 seconds delay for the Leeds Man U Carling cup game.
Effing digital sh!t. let's all stick to analogue!
Interesting thought that Investor. Given that the digital signal is noticably delayed compared to analog, and pretty much everything is digital now, + human reaction time + all the hardware in between the camera and any uplink anyway, to be honest 5 sec is cutting it a bit tight anyway? Analog sure as h*ll wouldn't have been instant as even that would've had a significant part of that chain incorporated anyway.
Unless of course Betfair get some streams from e.g. Sky before it's uplinked (impossible for foreign matches of course) - and anyway most football streams have probably has already been to a satellite and back I'd think, given the satellite dished events vans you see.
I might get a portable freeview tv and take it to a match one day, with a stopwatch
.
Unless of course Betfair get some streams from e.g. Sky before it's uplinked (impossible for foreign matches of course) - and anyway most football streams have probably has already been to a satellite and back I'd think, given the satellite dished events vans you see.
I might get a portable freeview tv and take it to a match one day, with a stopwatch
.
Good to see that we're back to 5 seconds for the UK Sky/ESPN EPL games.
8 seconds is definitely required on the Saturday afternoon games - the ones with which Betfair rely on 3rd party broadcasts. Perfectly workable to trade on 8 seconds.
Spanish should be 12 seconds.
Hooverers can f*ck off.
Spanish should be 12 seconds.
Hooverers can f*ck off.
i agree with shapeshifters post below... no suspend and no delay in football like in tennis or cricket... punters will learn and adjust
i agree with shapeshifters post below... no suspend and no delay in football like in tennis or cricket... punters will learn and adjust
I disagree with this 100%. Giving those with the fastest pictures / at the grounds the ability to hoover money AFTER they see a goal scored (etc) would kill the markets immediately.
And Betfair won't allow that to happen. Football is a major part of their business.
In fact, I'd like to see 8 seconds on tennis and 5 on horses.
I disagree with this 100%. Giving those with the fastest pictures / at the grounds the ability to hoover money AFTER they see a goal scored (etc) would kill the markets immediately.
And Betfair won't allow that to happen. Football is a major part of their business.
In fact, I'd like to see 8 seconds on tennis and 5 on horses.
Mr. Angry,
But I presume you agree that 5 seconds is fine for the main UK Sky EPL games. I'm always vulnerable to hoovering, but I've never had a problem with these games.
But I presume you agree that 5 seconds is fine for the main UK Sky EPL games. I'm always vulnerable to hoovering, but I've never had a problem with these games.
Mr.Angry, you speak the very obvious. WHY can't people understand this?
Who in their right mind would e.g. be laying Man U in play against some underdog with no protection whatsoever if/when Man U score? It's free money to hooverers and virtually guaranteed losses to layers. Anyone layer with any amount of shrewd would know this and just not put the money up = dead market. It's not even an academic discussion, betfair have tried unmanaged markets and dropped them. If you want unmanaged markets, I think betduck do them currently. Go there now, bet yourself silly in the complete lack of any money and any matching whatsoever.
Who in their right mind would e.g. be laying Man U in play against some underdog with no protection whatsoever if/when Man U score? It's free money to hooverers and virtually guaranteed losses to layers. Anyone layer with any amount of shrewd would know this and just not put the money up = dead market. It's not even an academic discussion, betfair have tried unmanaged markets and dropped them. If you want unmanaged markets, I think betduck do them currently. Go there now, bet yourself silly in the complete lack of any money and any matching whatsoever.
just checking i am sure layers will adapt.. mug punters will continue to lose... those who cannot adapt or cannot lose anymore will go elsewhere.. wait there is no elsewhere!! 1 month of unmanaged markets on sky live games and liquidity will be back to normal... its better to have unmanaged markets than unnecessary suspends
No, it's not. It's better to have unncessaray suspends than be hoovered.
Betfair should scrap unmanaged markets altogether.
Agree with Contrarian, personally I don't bother trading football unless its a 5 second clock which is fine for UK team on Sky/BBC/ITV/Channel 5
8 seconds delay again on this weeks CL games (last night and tonight).
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