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Mr-Cash
06 Sep 11 05:51
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Date Joined: 04 Sep 11
| Topic/replies: 10 | Blogger: Mr-Cash's blog
I got a message yesterday saying my account was suspended after I tried to place a bet. Betfair have sent me the following e-mail:

I am writing to inform you that your account has been suspended under investigation of Premium Charge avoidance.

Your account will remain suspended for a period of at least 8-10 working days whilst we conduct this investigation. You will be contacted again once the investigation is complete.

Yours sincerely,

Betfair Pricing


I phoned up to ask the helpdesk, the guy I spoke to said he didn't have a full explanation for why my account has been suspended. Then he said my account was suspended by the Investigations Team. He said there is premium charge for people who are consistently winning, and they are investigating premium charge avoidance.

Now I have read about the premium charge before, but never been asked to pay, so I don't understand how there could have been avoidance if I haven't been asked to pay. He refused to provide me with any more information. Then I was directed to "About Us" --> "Betfair Charges" section 7. I noticed that one of the criteria is "You bet in more than 250 markets". I have not - my account has only been open a few weeks and I have bet in only about 120 markets.

I'm really worried. has anyone experienced this before? I asked if I could withdraw the funds in my account, I was refused, saying nothing could be done while the investigation is happening. I have a significant 5-figure sum in my account. Should I just wait until the end of the investigation, or have they made a mistake? Have I done something wrong? I asked if my money was safe, he said absolutely, nobody could touch it, but then when I asked if I would definitely receive my money back at the end of the 8-10 days, he said "I cannot promise that". I'm thinking of going to the police, or maybe getting legal advice.

If anyone has any experience of this/advice, please post here. you can contact me also privately mrcashbetfair at h0tmail co uk. Any help would be really appreciated, I really haven't a clue whats going on.
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Report mrcelebrity September 6, 2011 5:11 AM BST
This happened to me last year. I feel very sorry for you as it was the worst 8-10 days of my life. I also had done nothing wrong as it was just a misunderstanding but they still took $47000 out of my account after it was over. At least I got to keep my account. All you can do is wait
Report Beat The OverRound September 6, 2011 6:04 AM BST
So obviously you now owe them 47K lol
Report aueng September 6, 2011 8:04 AM BST
so u had done nothing wrong but they took 47k Confused
Report TheVis September 6, 2011 8:25 AM BST
what a load of cobblers  - BF took $47k out of my account and I had done nothing wrong........ Laugh

to the OP I suspect all new BF accounts with a decent bit of activity are being looked at as potential PC evasion accounts.

BF just make the rules up as they go along.  It would be excellent to have somebody challenge the legality of all this nonsense.
Report nbdbscms September 6, 2011 9:21 AM BST
If you have recently opened an account and are immediately winning with obvious experience and knowledge of the site then they are sure to be suspicious,particuarly if you are betting/laying in large sums.
Report curlywurly September 6, 2011 9:22 AM BST
Your account has been open 'only a few weeks' and you have a 'significant 5 figure sum' in your account.
Of course accounts like that are going to be investigated.

I reckon they've got more people in the pc avoidance team than on the helpdesk - jobs need to be justified you know
Report Feck N. Eejit September 6, 2011 9:27 AM BST
Betfair is a closed shop now. Any new customer who wins is now under suspicion. As this will inevitably affect liquidity in the long run we will all pay a price for betfair's obsession with accommodating parasites and cheats.
Report hazel September 6, 2011 10:20 AM BST
I think Betfair are getting themselves into a complete mess.  The premium charge system will get deeper and deeper into the mire.

Betfair need to rethink their charging system.  All charges need to be deducted at the time of paying out winnings.  I don't know the answer to such a charging system that would be fair to all, and I suspect I would be worse off if the system changed. 

But the premium charge is not good for Betfair's image.  It was OK for a short term fix to claw back money from successful punters but its not the long term answer to extracting a fair contribution from all its winners.
Report Feck N. Eejit September 6, 2011 10:45 AM BST
I totally agree Hazel. The default system should be easy to understand and unfriendly to traders (with possibly a different system applying to ir). More complex systems should be opted into (or forced into) and anything related to percentage of long term winnings should be deducted/rebated after each market (I've already shown them how).
Report Do wah Diddy September 6, 2011 10:58 AM BST
I WOULDNT GO TO THE UNITED NATIONS THEVE GOT ALOT ON AT THE MOMENT
Report fixed September 6, 2011 3:13 PM BST
as long as "I've already shown them how" is arguing that betting less instead of more is the optimal strategy to battle PC2, he should probably scale back his advisory activity considerably ?!
Report Feck N. Eejit September 6, 2011 3:19 PM BST
as long as "I've already shown them how" is arguing that betting less instead of more is the optimal strategy to battle PC2, he should probably scale back his advisory activity considerably ?!


The bold portion is correct if you confine your activity to your normal markets but that's got sod all to do with what I'm talking about anyway.
Report Mr-Cash September 6, 2011 5:57 PM BST
mrcelebrity are you really serious? You did nothing wrong and they took $47k from your account and you did nothing about it? Why not get the law involved? Or are you taking the mickey?

I am pretty sure I have done nothing wrong, because I have bet in less than 250 markets and have never been asked to pay the premium charge. What really frightened me is during the conversation with the helpdesk the guy said "I cannot promise that" when I asked if I would definitely get my money back.

Hopefully it is just a mistake on their part. But if they try and rob my money it is theft and fraud, pure and simple. Surely a regulated & listed public company cant just do that?

I could just wait 8-10 days but the fact I have bet in less than 250 markets is evidence enough for them ... they don't need 8-10 days to work that out. This is really making me sick to the stomach. Probably sounds like I am being overly scared & paranoid and most probably they will realise a mistake and reopen the account with full access to the funds, but mrcelebrity's experience (if he is telling the truth?) is scary and I have an awful lot of money in the account.

Anyone else have any experience of this? How was it resolved eventually?
Report Feck N. Eejit September 6, 2011 6:13 PM BST
Within 10 years betfair will be farming customers body parts (NAP).
Report DStyle September 6, 2011 6:15 PM BST
is there any chance you may have shared internet access with other betfair users?
Report Trevh September 6, 2011 9:21 PM BST
Mr-Cash, are you sure you have never used another BF account?

Sorry for being cynical, but I'd put money on you and mrcelebrity being one and the same.
Report TheInvestor2 September 6, 2011 10:50 PM BST
As curlywurly already said, anyone that opens an account, deposits a large amount of money, and wins with PC level consistency straight away, is going to be viewed with extreme suspicion for obvious reasons.

Look at it this way: if about 500 of Betfair's 380,000 active accounts are paying PC2, how many new accounts will be 'born' each week that generate the kind of profits that would put them in PC territory?

My guess is that since introducing PC2, Betfair has seen a sudden increase in people opening accounts and making stackloads of money straight away.
Report Mr-Cash September 6, 2011 11:53 PM BST
I have never had another betfair account. I don't think anyone in my family has an account. Also I have only logged in from my own computers, so no shared internet access.

Sent an e-mail to betfair today but no reply. Looks like I have to wait at least another week.
Report Trevh September 7, 2011 2:07 AM BST
It could appear obvious to BF that someone has opened another account to avoid paying PC, but how exactly do they find the original account if the person has taken basic precautions such as a different name, different payment card and bank, different computer, different area.

If BF multi scan thousands of PC accounts to look for a link in the bet types, amounts, frequency etc, even if a link is obvious how do they prove anything?

Btw Mr-Cash, apologies if you're genuine, but I can see many factors potentially linking your post to mrcelebrity's, wouldn't it be ironic to blow one's cover that way!
Report Get On MASSIVE September 7, 2011 2:08 AM BST
I don't think Betfair accuse people of PC avoidance without good reason.

Most PC payers have a certain complexity in their methods and anyone who suddenly appears and starts winning regularly with good methods will be treated very suspiciously and probably rightly so.

Without giving too much away Mr Cash can you give us a typical example on how you make your money? Is it all in the same sport or do you trade in play?

If you blindly back England in the cricket this summer before the off and never touch it in play or blindly back Manchester football teams to win or back opponents of North London teams in the Premiership I may have some sympathy with your plight.
Report nbdbscms September 7, 2011 10:56 AM BST
Your account has only been open a few weeks,you have a considerable bank,you must be winning a lot to come to attention and you claim to never had an account before.If your system requires good knowledge of the site-bingo,there's your answer.If your account appears to be too 'lucky' then there is reason to suggest collusion with others.Your opening post gives every impression that you have a winning system of some sort and it has been started about the same time as the latest PC increase__-I think a 5 year old would be suspicious let alone the betfair police.Hope you get all your money back quickly but I cannot believe you are totally innocent in all this.Appologies if I am wrong.
Report Feck N. Eejit September 7, 2011 11:12 AM BST
Betfair's own stupidity have turned them into the Spanish Inquisition. All to accommodate customers they say are bad for them.
Report TheInvestor2 September 7, 2011 11:32 AM BST
Get On MASSIVE
Date Joined: 25 Jun 03
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When: 07 Sep 11 02:08
Joined:
Date Joined: 25 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 362 | Blogger: Get On MASSIVE's blog
I don't think Betfair accuse people of PC avoidance without good reason.
[...]


I think a new account winning large sums in a systematic way will be reason enough for them...

It is possible for someone to stumble upon Betfair and start making lots of money straight away, but it's so unlikely that it will be flagged as highly suspicious.

I made money on here right from the start, but the amounts were initially minuscule.
Report nbdbscms September 7, 2011 11:58 AM BST
Apologies for my spelling misteak.
Report nairda September 7, 2011 12:26 PM BST
welcome to the hotel betfair., you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave ( with your money)
Report nbdbscms September 7, 2011 12:37 PM BST
This type of thing,in all seriousness,is yet another 'own goal' by betfair.Anyone new to the site reading this will definitely be put off-can't they see all this type of publicity is all bad news.If I was a substantial investor in betfair I would be onto them like a flash-their PR is rubbish.Cases like this should surely be looked at and decisions made prior to contacting customers.This method is totally unsatisfactory and leaves all parties in limbo too long-I thinkthe press would have a field day ,at betfairs expense,if they got hold of this shambles.
Report Feck N. Eejit September 7, 2011 12:45 PM BST
Agree nbdbscms. If they ever do anything to p1ss off the big bookmakers (it's incredible that so far they haven't) their feet won't touch. They'll have all the cheating as propaganda as well as the pc's.
Report Martinch September 7, 2011 12:53 PM BST
http://corporate.betfair.com/investor-relations/results-centre.aspx
Report parrys September 7, 2011 1:04 PM BST
So PC payers that decide to call it a day @ 60% are then not allowed to teach their family, friends etc because this will be construed as avoidance ? I mean why not advise/train other people if its not worth your trouble now.How utterly absurd and like feck says a closed shop.
Report nairda September 7, 2011 2:01 PM BST
betfair doesn't want any accounts to win....I wonder how many more million betfair will spend on premium charge avoidance investigations teams
Report catflmasppo September 7, 2011 2:22 PM BST
Well, they aren't stopping winning accounts, are they?
Report Richard LL September 7, 2011 2:29 PM BST
Good luck Mr Cash, if you've just turned up out of the blue and are winning big on the ggs in running or have some full proof automated money making method then I can see why BF re suspicious and would have a few questions to ask, but if you've just had a bet here and there and have been successful then I think they're pissing in the wind as they wouldn't be able to match it up to another account with any degree of certainty.
Report Richard LL September 7, 2011 2:31 PM BST
*I'd be tempted to tell them that you were previously a highly successful player on ****, but have recently found it a bit tough recently due to an unexplainable influx of sharp minds so thought you'd dip your toe in on Betfair.
Report Mr-Cash September 7, 2011 7:54 PM BST
So if you are a new customer you are not allowed to win? You have to lose? Why Betfair is becoming like the British online bookies. Even the bookies won't suspend your account for 10 days to investigate, they will just restrict your stakes or shut your account.

I have done nothing wrong, I am pretty sure of this. If winning is a crime then what is the point of this site? People need to be made aware of what they do.
Report catflmasppo September 7, 2011 8:14 PM BST
Mr-Cash, it seems many agree that your circumstances justify some sort of investigation.  Maybe you could provide more detail explaining how you arrived, innocently, in this position?
Report hazel September 7, 2011 8:28 PM BST
Betangel owner recently had his account suspended for the similar reason.  they tried to suggest he was using his wife's account.  after 8 or so days betfair agreed that wife can bet in her own name and he was given all clear.

In the past betfair kept open accounts they suspected of misdemeaner whilst they investigated them.  I recall alleged x-factor and horse racing fiddles to name a few.  Seems for the premium charge they dont give you the same benefit of doubt. 

guilty until proven innocent.
Report parrys September 7, 2011 8:32 PM BST
She can keep her account open but he is not allowed to teach her how to win ?? Plain
Report Get On MASSIVE September 8, 2011 12:10 PM BST
Give us an example Mr Cash on a typical market on how you make your money please.

Your failure to do so incriminates you as if you have something to hide.
Report Biscar Two from a mile back September 8, 2011 3:33 PM BST
hazel

I read about the betangel bloke is that what happened in the end?
That he said it was his wife playing and betfair just accepted it.Seems a bit unlikely but given he is a relatively high profile customer then maybe its conceivable.

Any links to the story?
Report Mr-Cash September 8, 2011 4:44 PM BST
Been thinking about the situation for a couple of days now. I'm less worried about the situation - I think mrcelebrity was being economical with the truth. I know I have done nothing wrong, so I'm pretty sure I'll get my money back, one way or another.

Not having immediate access to my money is bad. Not being able to bet is frustrating, but I can deal with that. I just don't understand why they need so long, and why they still haven't replied to my e-mail.

GoM: I bet mainly on cricket and most of my profits are from this. I used to bet with Indian bookies.  mainly in-running. I watched the markets on here quite a lot before I started, and so had a fairly good idea about what I could do. Have also experimented a bit with other sports - football, tennis, but without much success.

Will try and post an update once they have replied. I think its important for people to know that if you open an account and start winning, they can suspend your account and access to your funds. It might make Betfair think twice about their actions.
Report Feck N. Eejit September 8, 2011 5:11 PM BST
Somebody just posted this on horse racing


Tunbridge Wells man charged with computer betting offences
08 September 2011
A Tunbridge Wells man faces computer betting fraud charges as a result of a Sussex Police investigation.

Alistair Peckover, 22, of Park Road, Southborough, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, was charged on Tuesday 6 September with setting up two Betfair computer betting accounts in the names of other people, contrary to the Computer Misuse Act and the Criminal Attempts Act.

He appeared at Crawley Magistrates Court on Wednesday 7 September and was remanded in custody to appear at Mid-Sussex Magistrates Court on Thursday 6 October for a commital hearing.

Peckover was arrested at his home by detectives from the Sussex Police Major Fraud Unit on 6 September

.
http://www.sussex.police.uk/news-and-events/news/2011/09/08/tunbridge-wells-man-charged-with-computer-betting-offences
Report Ghetto Joe September 8, 2011 5:23 PM BST
If you look up Peckover it's hardly the first time he's done it Feck and it's not related to PC avoidancer.

http://www.sussex.police.uk/news-and-events/news/2011/01/31/sussex-man-sentenced-for-website-scams-now-to-repay-%C2%A3124,000

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10343156
Report Feck N. Eejit September 8, 2011 5:59 PM BST
I just seen the rest of the story on horse racing Joe. As someone said on that thread, if it was just about opening accounts in other people's names many of us would've been arrested long before betfair came on the scene.
Report weatherman2004 September 8, 2011 6:00 PM BST
His wife has to pay 60%, according to his Twitter account
Report .Sir. September 23, 2011 10:58 AM BST
Is this MR-Cash?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8782921/Betfair-removed-52000-from-customers-account.html
Report Get On MASSIVE September 23, 2011 11:45 AM BST
I'd say it's well odds on it is.

Mr Cash was obviously Indian and the fella in that article had an Indian name.
Report the bank man September 23, 2011 12:06 PM BST
i wonder if betfair are completely reliant on software for identifying multiple account holders. i was told the name of this software and the basics of how it identify's linked accounts and was surprised to learn that its completely based on actual betting strategies rather than IP addresses etc. from what i was told its incredibly sophisticated but i would have thought that at some point it might throw the odd error up. will be interesting to see if Mr Cash ever comes back to report the outcome of this like he promised.
Report Ghetto Joe September 23, 2011 1:36 PM BST
the bank man, he posted the email he got from betfair on the betangel forum apparently can no longewr post on here as the account has been closed. Be interesting to see what the final outcome is. Here's part of his post

"Your activity on Betfair is conditional upon your acceptance of our Terms and Conditions, and operating accounts in multiple names in order to conceal the true identity of your activity will not be tolerated by us. As a result of your repeated breach of Betfair’s terms and conditions, all accounts involved in this matter have been permanently closed. Please be advised that the ‘[myaccount]’ account is currently overdrawn by £15,860.10. Betfair will seek to recover this amount from any accounts you attempt to operate in the future. These accounts will also be permanently closed."
Report Martinch September 23, 2011 4:56 PM BST
I met this guy outside the AGM yesterday....

I understand Betfair trying to enforce their pricing structure (and I think it's fair enough... but that's not what's being discussed here)... BUT if the bank man is right (and this is what I suspected) then it is true that this method could not be 100% accurate (it will miss some evaders and it will accuse some non-evaders) and obviously this worries me (as a non-evader).
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 23, 2011 5:19 PM BST
It is a bit extreme going to the AGM if you are guilty (and if they are guilty by definition he would be the monkey and not the organ grinder) which makes it even more extreme.  That said, you'd have to think they were very confident that he was guilty because this could easily end up costing them millions if he is innocent.
Report CLYDEBANK29 September 23, 2011 5:21 PM BST
There will be of plenty of pissed off journalists willing to cover the story
Report Rookie2003 September 23, 2011 5:24 PM BST
I could see how this supposed computer system could detect identical accounts to some extent, but 100s of people surely have the same strategy. Particularly track players or fast pic merchants, i mean how many people in the market smash 1.01 after an event has finished, or lay 1000 on a decked horse, steam into evens when a try is scored etc? Surely that is hard to differenciate. 

Anyhow, its a closed shop now. I do all my shoping these days at purple, its slowly picking up. shame they dont promote it more, but hey ho - one day it may genuinely compete with this once great place.
Report bigH September 23, 2011 10:03 PM BST
Betfair are like a rudderless ship - the number of senior people leaving the company is a good indicator that they haven't got a clear strategy and could explain some of the resignations. The premium charge is a joke.Earlier poster was correct, Betfairs PR is a disaster - the only way to get the premium charge changed is to keep getting the issue raised in the media.

from Thursdays London Standard.........

Betfair chairman Ed Wray could be the next executive to depart the troubled online betting exchange.

The joint founder retains a 10% stake in the business but today said the board was looking for a new deputy chairman to replace him at the helm. It is not yet clear whether he will remain on the board.

Chief executive David Yu said in June that he would be leaving less than a year after a controversial stock market flotation. The shares joined the market at £13 but soon plunged as promised growth failed to emerge. Today the stock was off 13p at 770p.

Other top management have also quit, including chief product and services officer Mathias Entenmann, head of mobile Charlie Palmer, director of architecture, research and prototyping Matt Carter, director of UK sports and gaming Lee Cowles, and chief executive of financial betting exchange LMAX, Robin Osmond.
Report No_BS September 30, 2011 1:47 AM BST
Betfair will be dead in 2 years then you will all be **** because your bookies will only take losers and you have no other options left.
Report abingtonp August 4, 2020 5:28 PM BST
I was a VIP customer and they refused to pay me £320 unless it was on the 2-5 term. It used to be £500 but they never informed me of the new limit. Are these people going bust? Are they being taken over by Irish former Provos or drug dealers? They now treat customers like ****.

They are a bunch of bastards.

It's time to move to other exchanges. I have reported them to the Gambling Commission for usury and non-payment. I have a QC trying to suspend their licence.

They wouldn't treat punters like that at Dundalk racecourse, or why would be strung up. The new Irish management is now bringing out their hatred of Brits.
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