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for a start you are all stupid.
They are not taking 40% to give to you, they are taking it for themselves, you are not suddenly going to be 40% richer because of this. In fact it makes it harder for you to win has there is 40% less in the pot to go around for all the idiots who champion the decision to increase the PC.
I am sure when the founders came up with the idea of betfair (charging 5%) they would have loved to know they would make 2 million each, well they made hundreds of millions each, and now the greedy bstards want more. Its the same as the gas companys, increase the prices for Joe public whilst making profits of billions, and pay themselves millions each year.
I bet on the very first horse race betfair put up, and championed them to anyone I knew, and all over the internet in the early days, received phone calls" could you put some money in this market to get us started", for this and for having the audacity to win 25000 a year I am now liable for 40%
Well Mr Black, and Mr Wray, I just thought I would let you know, I wouldnt piiss on you if you were on fire, you courted many many people when you needed them for your start, and you repay them with 40% surcharges.I couldnt sleep If I behaved like you, there again I realise everyone had different morals, and you can take solace in the fact that so many of you employes write in the forum what a great move the 40% is.
They are not taking 40% to give to you, they are taking it for themselves, you are not suddenly going to be 40% richer because of this. In fact it makes it harder for you to win has there is 40% less in the pot to go around for all the idiots who champion the decision to increase the PC.
I am sure when the founders came up with the idea of betfair (charging 5%) they would have loved to know they would make 2 million each, well they made hundreds of millions each, and now the greedy bstards want more. Its the same as the gas companys, increase the prices for Joe public whilst making profits of billions, and pay themselves millions each year.
I bet on the very first horse race betfair put up, and championed them to anyone I knew, and all over the internet in the early days, received phone calls" could you put some money in this market to get us started", for this and for having the audacity to win 25000 a year I am now liable for 40%
Well Mr Black, and Mr Wray, I just thought I would let you know, I wouldnt piiss on you if you were on fire, you courted many many people when you needed them for your start, and you repay them with 40% surcharges.I couldnt sleep If I behaved like you, there again I realise everyone had different morals, and you can take solace in the fact that so many of you employes write in the forum what a great move the 40% is.
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catfleppo
If pc2 is a natural development of pc 1 , then how long before their a pc3?
Im sure betfair is saying there be no pc3, but didn't they say that after pc1
If pc2 is a natural development of pc 1 , then how long before their a pc3?
Im sure betfair is saying there be no pc3, but didn't they say that after pc1
Who knows? Not even betfair I shouldn't think.
It seems unlikely though that the charging structure will remain unchanged forever.
It seems unlikely though that the charging structure will remain unchanged forever.
It seems unlikely though that the charging structure will remain unchanged forever
charging Structure
from 5% to 60%, not a small structure change
charging Structure
from 5% to 60%, not a small structure change
Johnny The Gesser is very strange post. Board want big salary for them, now. That why big price put in now, and thing which peoples cannot work out with money calculations like staff morale getting much lower is acceptabel to board. Why so many manager leave Betfair, why so many unhappy. Board are not owner of Betfair. Board make different decision than right ones sometimes because this.
Liquidity has been woefully down on UK races in the past week. Not a good sign and obviously has something to do with PC2.
Now, the other side of the coin is if more of the top earners leave here, the markets will be un-backable and odds would be much lower than that of bookies. Mugs don't put on big bets, so Betfair will have little to offer them.
So therefore if the big guys go, mugs won't be far behind and the beginning of the end would then be clearly visible.
Now, the other side of the coin is if more of the top earners leave here, the markets will be un-backable and odds would be much lower than that of bookies. Mugs don't put on big bets, so Betfair will have little to offer them.
So therefore if the big guys go, mugs won't be far behind and the beginning of the end would then be clearly visible.
in Poker...it's the winners who start up a empty tables...In many ways , betfair is the same as a poker room
Bob, that's what was being said just after pc1. I am one of the 480 and I've had quite a good winning run since 18th July - no chance of me moving anytime soon.
Nairda, pc2 didn't increase the charges from 5% to 60% but in anycase yes, to implement a minimum threshold for commission paid is quite a small change.
Nairda, pc2 didn't increase the charges from 5% to 60% but in anycase yes, to implement a minimum threshold for commission paid is quite a small change.
And i didn't actually say it was a small change in the first place [:p]
Thanks, catfleppo.
Of course, the other thing could be that the top 500 (or so) who pay the PC2 charge could increase their stakes and earnings just to get to the same level of profits they were making before the charge - therefore not really solving anything that Betfair had originally hoped for.
Either way, it will be interesting to see how things go in the next 6 months.
Of course, the other thing could be that the top 500 (or so) who pay the PC2 charge could increase their stakes and earnings just to get to the same level of profits they were making before the charge - therefore not really solving anything that Betfair had originally hoped for.
Either way, it will be interesting to see how things go in the next 6 months.
Surely that would be good for betfair?
I agree it will be interesting to see how things develop.
I agree it will be interesting to see how things develop.
What is already happening..(speaking as a track player) is that the behemoths are playing harder than ever..
After all if you have been making £1 million + a year on 20% PC... then for a good lifestyle, why stop when this reduces to c 600k on say 50%?
Box costs (eg 50k per annum)are less of a factor to these players...
So what happens... the smaller stake steadier players are driven out....
In the short term ...more comm. for Betfair... longer term... 200 of the 500 affected players are driven out..the ones in fact Betfair would be better off keeping..
Liquidity then drops.. so a short term lift for Betfair in next month... then the share decline continues...
After all if you have been making £1 million + a year on 20% PC... then for a good lifestyle, why stop when this reduces to c 600k on say 50%?
Box costs (eg 50k per annum)are less of a factor to these players...
So what happens... the smaller stake steadier players are driven out....
In the short term ...more comm. for Betfair... longer term... 200 of the 500 affected players are driven out..the ones in fact Betfair would be better off keeping..
Liquidity then drops.. so a short term lift for Betfair in next month... then the share decline continues...
Glasgow Rangers was just liberated from the Champions League-stress. They lost and they are out. How many in the pc2club
will start losing? How many will be out? Don´t get stressed.
I have a little bit of a contrarian view on this issue. I think the pc2 or something like it is inevitable because there
is too much inequality in the system. The gap between the really successful and the not so is too big, which leads to
too many players drain the system for too much money in a too short period of time.
I have seen a few signs that the system (Betfair) is declining and that the system itself may be under threat. Believe
it or not, I am a pc2er and personally I rather try to adapt to a new, higher tax-environment, than see the whole system
at risk.
Anyone with a strategy good enough to win £250K should be good enough to adapt to a new environment. Environments change
constantly. Who knows, some day online-betting should be legal in the USA. How could you not thrive in such an
environment? Don't stress.
will start losing? How many will be out? Don´t get stressed.
I have a little bit of a contrarian view on this issue. I think the pc2 or something like it is inevitable because there
is too much inequality in the system. The gap between the really successful and the not so is too big, which leads to
too many players drain the system for too much money in a too short period of time.
I have seen a few signs that the system (Betfair) is declining and that the system itself may be under threat. Believe
it or not, I am a pc2er and personally I rather try to adapt to a new, higher tax-environment, than see the whole system
at risk.
Anyone with a strategy good enough to win £250K should be good enough to adapt to a new environment. Environments change
constantly. Who knows, some day online-betting should be legal in the USA. How could you not thrive in such an
environment? Don't stress.
That theory has an awful lot of holes in it.
A terribly socialist point of view. Penalising ability is not a good look.
If BF are not supertaxing the big winners to reinvest the monies raised to attract new bettors ( as they seem to say they are doing, but a lot on here reasonably question), then the whole PC exercise is not only pointless but inevitably self defeating.
That is you can't raise up the poor by bringing down the rich.
If however you really mean there is currently inequality in the exchange due to certain cheating going on, then to eradicate this the PC is also certainly not the answer.
In summary if the PC is not about reinvestment in the exchange by BF, then it is wrong and will fail.
A terribly socialist point of view. Penalising ability is not a good look.
If BF are not supertaxing the big winners to reinvest the monies raised to attract new bettors ( as they seem to say they are doing, but a lot on here reasonably question), then the whole PC exercise is not only pointless but inevitably self defeating.
That is you can't raise up the poor by bringing down the rich.
If however you really mean there is currently inequality in the exchange due to certain cheating going on, then to eradicate this the PC is also certainly not the answer.
In summary if the PC is not about reinvestment in the exchange by BF, then it is wrong and will fail.
You guys don't understand....you think, if you're winning $1 million a year, and now playing PC, that the PC player should bet more money to win the same million next year.....this is how you go broke
Look, it's like this, lets say I have a betting bank of $100,000..and I believe Team A is 60% chance to win, and Team A is odds of 2.00 on betfair...if im betting to a bank of 100k ..this is what the odds become for me at each level of PC, and how much i should be
No PC commis 2.5%
1.975 bet $18,974
20% PC plus 2.5% commis
1.933 bet $17,127
40% PC plus 2.5 commis
1.866 bet $13,810
Now...why the f-ck do you think the PC guys will bet more money
now...if wanted to back Team A at **** for 1.98 (less 2.00 on betfair) and on 2.5% commin there
1.955 bet $18,115
Big different in prices/odds
Look, it's like this, lets say I have a betting bank of $100,000..and I believe Team A is 60% chance to win, and Team A is odds of 2.00 on betfair...if im betting to a bank of 100k ..this is what the odds become for me at each level of PC, and how much i should be
No PC commis 2.5%
1.975 bet $18,974
20% PC plus 2.5% commis
1.933 bet $17,127
40% PC plus 2.5 commis
1.866 bet $13,810
Now...why the f-ck do you think the PC guys will bet more money
now...if wanted to back Team A at **** for 1.98 (less 2.00 on betfair) and on 2.5% commin there
1.955 bet $18,115
Big different in prices/odds
amd guess what...if I offer 1.96 on betduck...and it's 2.00 on betfair...my bet will be ab between betfair and betduck.. and I will still end up with the money, and the money will still leave betfair, but this time, the money will end up in a betduck account
Nairda
If they want to win the same amount of money ex PC they just increase their betting bank don't they, if the mkt. is scalable that is ?.
If they want to win the same amount of money ex PC they just increase their betting bank don't they, if the mkt. is scalable that is ?.
Atc your postulating a whole load of conditions that don't really exist and a prediction that is wildly speculative to justify salting a charge that you have no real idea of its business logic and discard the fact that betfair still offers the largest profits available in any betting company worldwide in consistency, does your brain offer you more hope if you walked back into the sea and make like a fish as your back pedaling the evolutionary advantages of human intelligence, gulp , gulp
Bet you the first fish that gets fried in the duckpond ATC 
Bff
If you GR neurons are as good as your imagery neurons then you're onto a winner that's for sure.
If you GR neurons are as good as your imagery neurons then you're onto a winner that's for sure.
Well, FAFH, it was not my meaning to post a socialist theory! But I can see your point and I can appreciate if you are not happy with the latest developments. Me neither. But the issue of cheating I have not even thought about.
Maybe it will all go to hell with Betfair, but my keypoint was that they obviously found the amount of money, drained
from the system by successful players, was on an unsustainable level. I really hope its not just about squeezing out as
much profit as possible or , even worse, trying to get rid of successful players.
I agree you can't help the poor by joining them in poverty. The key word in too-much-inequality is "too". Not necessarily
from my point of view, but from Betfairs as it obviously cost them so much that they take this big step.
To be honest, read my post as self-peptalk and peptalk on taking on the new environment. I personally have learnt a few
lifelessons the hard way. This sh-t I can't do anything about but adapt to in the best possible way= adjust and keep on
working.
Maybe it will all go to hell with Betfair, but my keypoint was that they obviously found the amount of money, drained
from the system by successful players, was on an unsustainable level. I really hope its not just about squeezing out as
much profit as possible or , even worse, trying to get rid of successful players.
I agree you can't help the poor by joining them in poverty. The key word in too-much-inequality is "too". Not necessarily
from my point of view, but from Betfairs as it obviously cost them so much that they take this big step.
To be honest, read my post as self-peptalk and peptalk on taking on the new environment. I personally have learnt a few
lifelessons the hard way. This sh-t I can't do anything about but adapt to in the best possible way= adjust and keep on
working.
Nairda
If they want to win the same amount of money ex PC they just increase their betting bank don't they, if the mkt. is scalable that is ?.
you're much smarter then that FAFH
If they want to win the same amount of money ex PC they just increase their betting bank don't they, if the mkt. is scalable that is ?.
you're much smarter then that FAFH
Tks for the compliment nairda, but I'm not on this particular point that's for sure.
Bleeding Swede
Maybe Winston Churchill might have said " Never have so few taken so much from so many " ?
But your point about just getting on with things is well taken by me.
Maybe Winston Churchill might have said " Never have so few taken so much from so many " ?
But your point about just getting on with things is well taken by me.
Well considering there is much less likely-hood of becoming a 250,000 bracket earner on a site that has 8% liquidity of betfair, would any intelligent big punter really relish the duckpond with any fiscal appetite, nope, but a consistent loser will get no better deal at the duckpond, perhaps the persons that make a bit now and then and don't grow there revenues and business like betfair will appreciate a firm that does exactly the same in performance like duckpond, happy days
because FAFH...PC punter, is now getting less money per $1 in risk, as such, PC punter should risk less money from he betting bank on each bet
I get that nairda, but we're talking about big punters who seem to be able to win at any reasonable odds, not just value ones.
That is they're not that risk/reward sensitive and would willingly bet larger amounts if and when they can ( not at ridiculously stupid odds htat is of course).
I don't mean your type of gambler who is making finely calibrated pre-off position bets/lays, but the IR high volume momentum type ones.
That is they're not that risk/reward sensitive and would willingly bet larger amounts if and when they can ( not at ridiculously stupid odds htat is of course).
I don't mean your type of gambler who is making finely calibrated pre-off position bets/lays, but the IR high volume momentum type ones.
What is the forum used like, sesame streets urban business arts club, for under achievers, yeah splash a bit of resentment with a little duck following a big swan, a choppy water and the swan dives and the duck floats, come and play
they are still making less money per $1 risk..and no one has end less banks...
How can a school of thought survive with to many teachers and not enough pupils, its staff room coffee break chaos in here, no-one willing to agree or learn and teachers at 10 paces!
Is it just me or does anybody else not understand a word of what this chap is saying?
may be its the "thought of school" that torments more than the "school of thought" that pleases but hey
you have to be in something to gain something and if winning the biggest profits possible isn't for you then fluncking out may be an option and I should know, best truant in my class 2 years running lol
you have to be in something to gain something and if winning the biggest profits possible isn't for you then fluncking out may be an option and I should know, best truant in my class 2 years running lol
nairda
Date Joined: 05 Jan 07
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When: 03 Aug 11 22:16
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they are still making less money per $1 risk..and no one has end less banks...
The thing is that someone that places £10k bets and needs a big margin due to PC, can place lots of £100 bets with virtually zero margin, as this will increase overall profitability. That will be too much of a hassle for many though.
Date Joined: 05 Jan 07
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When: 03 Aug 11 22:16
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they are still making less money per $1 risk..and no one has end less banks...
The thing is that someone that places £10k bets and needs a big margin due to PC, can place lots of £100 bets with virtually zero margin, as this will increase overall profitability. That will be too much of a hassle for many though.
I'm loathe to block people...I've got to get my laughs from somewhere
You can make a profit with 1% margin mate and still take something home after pc, its all relative, its not a jigsaw with "i want 100% of my profits" as the missing piece, god its like a nursery in here
its all good fun, if you take me seriously then thats something I never do so why should you, I love you all really
I hope all the exchanges do well, its the bookies I hate, never used them since they openly coned me out of £800 3 months ago, never bet in them again,they admitted I placed a bet on a dog that won and that I told them it was for a dog race, the cashier made a note on the computer till as there was a horse race on at same time. but when it came to getting paid, "we don't have to pay you as the rules on the wall says so" , I got my stake money back, worse betting day of my life, thats 100% premium charge, betfair always pay a winner, ok if your making millions you will pay more in charges but
At least there honest
At least there honest
In corals I backed a 4/1 shot trap 5 with 100 quid, it went out to 8/1, thats were it all went wrong,bookies don't like to make a loss on the week or day and I made the mistake of using the same bookie 5 times in a row and winning, betfair is fair at least they pay you out, corals have told me I cant place large bets,100 quid isnt large, head office said they are monitoring all my bets, I gave up on corals and all bookies, they don't like winners!
a scandinavian arguing in favour of higher marginal tax rates for high earners.
whatever next?
whatever next?
One guy got banned from all shops for winning £1000 , its on the Internet, Barney Curley won a massive bet in a few bookies last year, he still hasn't been paid, no one ever slates bookmakers on here
and yet betfair is the true home of gamblers now, I know they aren't perfect but there still around and
batting for fair betting!
and yet betfair is the true home of gamblers now, I know they aren't perfect but there still around and
batting for fair betting!
Fafh
It's a cruel world. I believe Churchill said: "Never have 480 taken so much from the system and gotten away with it. And
they never will". But if you are among the 480, and I think you are, the most important thing is that there is a working
system. Opportunities will appear and cunning plans too.
It's a cruel world. I believe Churchill said: "Never have 480 taken so much from the system and gotten away with it. And
they never will". But if you are among the 480, and I think you are, the most important thing is that there is a working
system. Opportunities will appear and cunning plans too.
You're right there Jimmy.
I don't want to think where exactly my ranking might be on that particular scale .
Wouldn't look too pretty that's for sure.
I don't want to think where exactly my ranking might be on that particular scale .
Wouldn't look too pretty that's for sure.
I'm not one of the 480 either...never have been never will
Never will be in the sense that when you reach the PC2 level, given normal inflation rates, it will be the dirty 480,000 ?
Viva el P
No senor! No,no,no,no,no! Not arguing. Just bending over for reality. My take on this is that the system must work because
I live in the system. So I just hope, yeah just..., that the system will work better in the future.
But of course, being a scandinavian I don't know as much about working financial systems and societies than british and,
even more so, irish people.
No senor! No,no,no,no,no! Not arguing. Just bending over for reality. My take on this is that the system must work because
I live in the system. So I just hope, yeah just..., that the system will work better in the future.
But of course, being a scandinavian I don't know as much about working financial systems and societies than british and,
even more so, irish people.
"Bending over for reality ".
Now that's a **** take on the PC.
Now that's a **** take on the PC.
fafh
. Well, my english is the old schoolbook-english. I thought you meant "fu...ng"! Time for bed. Good luck with
betting wherever it is. Piece of advice: specialize and simplify as much as possible.
. Well, my english is the old schoolbook-english. I thought you meant "fu...ng"! Time for bed. Good luck with betting wherever it is. Piece of advice: specialize and simplify as much as possible.
viva el presidente!
02 Aug 11 00:00 Joined: 10 Jun 06 | Topic/replies: 8,856 | Blogger: viva el presidente!'s blog
bf-fanatic => welcome to my ignore list.
---------
yep - he's only the second person to get on mine, too.
Didnt think i'd agree with you viva but same here,my block list consists of two posters bf fanantic is one,i wonder if the other is the same?!
02 Aug 11 00:00 Joined: 10 Jun 06 | Topic/replies: 8,856 | Blogger: viva el presidente!'s blog
bf-fanatic => welcome to my ignore list.
---------
yep - he's only the second person to get on mine, too.
Didnt think i'd agree with you viva but same here,my block list consists of two posters bf fanantic is one,i wonder if the other is the same?!
No patrick, sorry to diappoint you.
You really do have two now.
I would never block you.
Imagine what pearls of wisdom I would then miss out on ?
You really do have two now.
I would never block you.
Imagine what pearls of wisdom I would then miss out on ?
FAFH, for me the funniest thing about all the winding up people for fun about the pc2 is that some have taken it too heart and blocked me, I was going to post " should the pc2 be higher" for more laughs and kicks but reckon the men from the tower would of kicked me off for provocation, your the only one that worked me out when you said he probably hates pc2 as much as the next man, well done FAFH , not winding people up anymore , got the main guys i wanted dstyle, president,etc
For me the forum is sheer entertainment value, I cant sit on the fence when theres a key in everyones back somewhere
For me the forum is sheer entertainment value, I cant sit on the fence when theres a key in everyones back somewhere
There all going round saying theve blocked me, am pissing myself
Bff I have to admit that you are a winder upper par excellence, and that I cannot hold a candle to your skills in that area.
I am more in the category of someone who cannot abide moaners and whingers, and people who feel sorry for themselves and feel they are being unfairly picked on, most particularly those who have had the good fortune to have been in the right place at the right time to have earned a very pretty penny from the very entity they are now accusing of being unfair and hostile to them.
I am glad to hear you don't actually like the PC ( after all who in their right mind actually likes any charges or taxes anywhere), but I am equally glad to hear that you do appear to understand and accept, if somewhat reluctantly, the basic need for reasonable, exchange sustaining charges and taxes.
Many on here have put up quite compelling arguments on the excessive degree and poor structure of the PC, which in many cases are pretty hard just to dismiss as being selfish moans from an elitist group.
They are real and should be addressed by BF in some equitable manner. The rebate argument is a particularly compelling one.
Your winding up technique is perhaps not the best way to inform people that you are really just like many of them, that is a fair and honest punter expecting or hoping to try to make a fair and honest living out of a very difficult and challenging occupation.
I am more in the category of someone who cannot abide moaners and whingers, and people who feel sorry for themselves and feel they are being unfairly picked on, most particularly those who have had the good fortune to have been in the right place at the right time to have earned a very pretty penny from the very entity they are now accusing of being unfair and hostile to them.
I am glad to hear you don't actually like the PC ( after all who in their right mind actually likes any charges or taxes anywhere), but I am equally glad to hear that you do appear to understand and accept, if somewhat reluctantly, the basic need for reasonable, exchange sustaining charges and taxes.
Many on here have put up quite compelling arguments on the excessive degree and poor structure of the PC, which in many cases are pretty hard just to dismiss as being selfish moans from an elitist group.
They are real and should be addressed by BF in some equitable manner. The rebate argument is a particularly compelling one.
Your winding up technique is perhaps not the best way to inform people that you are really just like many of them, that is a fair and honest punter expecting or hoping to try to make a fair and honest living out of a very difficult and challenging occupation.
And btw patrick is obviously a deeply unhappy person and you should go out of your way to be extra kind and gentle to him.
He is rather fragile.
He is rather fragile.
Actually the blocking mechanism is perhaps as deeply flawed as the PC.
To have full penalistic effect on the so called " troll " or " pest", it should actualy work two ways.
That is , the t or p should be unable to read the posts of those who want to block him.
That could actually hurt him/her.
eg in the case of DStyle, you would be losing access to perhaps one of the smartest statistical mathematicians posting on here. In the case of Viva, one of the wittiest at times etc etc.
To have full penalistic effect on the so called " troll " or " pest", it should actualy work two ways.
That is , the t or p should be unable to read the posts of those who want to block him.
That could actually hurt him/her.
eg in the case of DStyle, you would be losing access to perhaps one of the smartest statistical mathematicians posting on here. In the case of Viva, one of the wittiest at times etc etc.
Patrick would appear to be a thug or at least a wannabe thug.
But we really shouldn'tperhaps be talking about someone who can't respond fairly.
But we really shouldn'tperhaps be talking about someone who can't respond fairly.
I read today that BF revenues are up above expectations and thats before pc2 profits come in, thats good and bad as , (1)bad, it highlights that there revenues are in good shape so little justification on pc hike,(2) good, more chance of some concession on rate or/and a better chance of long term acceptance of big winners by the firm.
Probably too short term to mean anything one way or the other.
I tell you what though, its a head banger of a charge for punters but BF have got balls when it comes to business, see there are two sides to both parties involved, if BF get anymore ballsy then were all better off getting jobs with them lol
If i am truly honest and look at both sides of all arguments, and without playing the actor which I have been, I would end up sitting on the fence FAFH on this pc2, because after all even though making more profit for us punters is wired into our souls, betfair deserve what ever profits/losses and accolade/regrets that come to them for being mavericks in the betting world for mavericks in betting, it seems there is exchange mechanisms in matters of ideals also as well as fiscal matters!
Well Mr Black, and Mr Wray, I just thought I would let you know, I wouldnt piiss on you if you were on fire, you courted many many people when you needed them for your start, and you repay them with 40% surcharges.
This seems a little harsh considering Andrew Black left the board last year. I would be surprised if PC2 would have been brought in if he was in a position to stop it. Apart From Mr Wray I think you would struggle to find anyone at Betfair was were there at the start when they were begging people to provide liquidity and campaign to government for fair taxation.
This seems a little harsh considering Andrew Black left the board last year. I would be surprised if PC2 would have been brought in if he was in a position to stop it. Apart From Mr Wray I think you would struggle to find anyone at Betfair was were there at the start when they were begging people to provide liquidity and campaign to government for fair taxation.
Can anybody get their figures on terms.betfair.com site? I can no longer login to the site, it just says "Only those customers that are directly affected will be able to access this webpage."
Does that mean I am no longer affected?
Does that mean I am no longer affected?
I can't get on it either Joel and I'm one of the 480.
GOM you knew that betfair would eventually raise the pc, why act so surprised and pretend others can offer you the same MASSIVE profits, so you lot think you have the patent rights to greed or to succeed, shame on you.
patent rights to greed
Betfair want 60% cut out of me but only if I win, if I lose I'm on my own. Not only that they want 60% of what I net on here, they don't want to contribute to my expenses.
If I win another million on here I'll see £400k minus my expenses of it. If I've lost my edge and it takes me another million Pounds worth of losses to find out then I'll be liable for the whole lot myself.
Betfair want more money for my efforts and risk than I get with no responsibility for expenses or losses, that's just too far.
One word for you bf fanatic, unsustainable.
This will eventually be the death of them, they've pi$$ed off the wrong people.
Betfair want 60% cut out of me but only if I win, if I lose I'm on my own. Not only that they want 60% of what I net on here, they don't want to contribute to my expenses.
If I win another million on here I'll see £400k minus my expenses of it. If I've lost my edge and it takes me another million Pounds worth of losses to find out then I'll be liable for the whole lot myself.
Betfair want more money for my efforts and risk than I get with no responsibility for expenses or losses, that's just too far.
One word for you bf fanatic, unsustainable.
This will eventually be the death of them, they've pi$$ed off the wrong people.
You're very special to the shareholders every Wednesday!
It would be nice if, when you logged in through terms, the site looked a little different and they had some premium offers for premium payers!
It would be nice if, when you logged in through terms, the site looked a little different and they had some premium offers for premium payers!
Yeah, that would be nice shaun. I don’t know if I’m that special to shareholders as I stopped betting when they made the announcement, and yet I still hang around like a bad smell.
Betfair want 60% cut out of me but only if I win, if I lose I'm on my own. Not only that they want 60% of what I net on here, they don't want to contribute to my expenses.
To pay 60% you have a long term ratio of less than 5%. Considering basic commission rate is 5% I dont think you will be losing your edge anytime soon. And if you do I think it will be obvious before you reach massive loses because you must currently be winning virtually every market you play on.
To pay 60% you have a long term ratio of less than 5%. Considering basic commission rate is 5% I dont think you will be losing your edge anytime soon. And if you do I think it will be obvious before you reach massive loses because you must currently be winning virtually every market you play on.
Precisely frog 2.
Perhaps GOM could help us more exactly understand as to why he is threatened with potential gambling extinction by the PC2, then maybe he could post up some basic type figures on his predicament as follows.
Historical GP to date
Historical commission actually paid ( ex PC)
Historical commission generated ( using BF formula).
Then we can at least do a few calculations on excatly what his actual or potential exposure to PC means in terms of impact on his real bottom line.
And then we could perhaps see and understand how he is at risk of losing all with some slight variance in his " edge".
I trust that would not be viewed as asking GOM to reveal too much info to enable us to understand fully and thus perhaps sympathise more with his " dire " circumstances.
Perhaps GOM could help us more exactly understand as to why he is threatened with potential gambling extinction by the PC2, then maybe he could post up some basic type figures on his predicament as follows.
Historical GP to date
Historical commission actually paid ( ex PC)
Historical commission generated ( using BF formula).
Then we can at least do a few calculations on excatly what his actual or potential exposure to PC means in terms of impact on his real bottom line.
And then we could perhaps see and understand how he is at risk of losing all with some slight variance in his " edge".
I trust that would not be viewed as asking GOM to reveal too much info to enable us to understand fully and thus perhaps sympathise more with his " dire " circumstances.
Wow good post from GOM, he has some points about what it costs users to keep running, good posts also from frog2 and fafh, I must raise the level of my posts as I am getting out classed by people that know what there talking about an relate well to others, perhaps now I can see what a forum really is useful for, constructive criticism, I think what is really sadly missing from betfair is a press release system to bond better with there customers, announce up and coming changes, promote themselves instead of working from a tower, are all the 2000 staff so busy that the 3 million plus users cant be kept in touch and feel more secure and welcome in there beloved betfair>
Are the share holders as ill-informed as the people that really invest and have invested millions in the past, let alone designed systems and software to increase the worth of the company, or are we just going to be numbers in a system, with trap jackets and saddle cloths to match, are we just runners in a race ?
Some of GOM's post may not be entirely relevant to GOM himself but describes exactly the position many gamblers could find themselves in. I've already given them an easy implemented method for introducing rebates that isn't open to abuse but I don't think they give a fk anymore. I sometimes wonder if it was timeform that took over betfair.
If it's about rebates Feck I agree.
If it's just about losing an edge, as GOM says, I don't know.
If it's just about losing an edge, as GOM says, I don't know.
If you had a £100 quid with Betfair at 4/1 and you were a top rate pc payer
you would have been backing the same dog at 13/8 numpty
you would have been backing the same dog at 13/8 numpty
They don't listen in the tower to us, its amazing how corporations left ear listening to profit strategists grows bigger and there right ear listening to customer feedback and relations shrinks and withers away when they hit the big time, its an organic distancing effect in all businesses as they grow there growing tip grows further away from there roots, but without roots the plant will starve and wither away, still you got to laugh haven't you as holly used to say on red dwarf[;)]
bf_fananatic03 Aug 11 22:40
In corals I backed a 4/1 shot trap 5 with 100 quid, it went out to 8/1, thats were it all went wrong,bookies don't like to make a loss on the week or day and I made the mistake of using the same bookie 5 times in a row and winning, betfair is fair at least they pay you out, corals have told me I cant place large bets,100 quid isnt large, head office said they are monitoring all my bets, I gave up on corals and all bookies, they don't like winners!
In corals I backed a 4/1 shot trap 5 with 100 quid, it went out to 8/1, thats were it all went wrong,bookies don't like to make a loss on the week or day and I made the mistake of using the same bookie 5 times in a row and winning, betfair is fair at least they pay you out, corals have told me I cant place large bets,100 quid isnt large, head office said they are monitoring all my bets, I gave up on corals and all bookies, they don't like winners!
well I suppose thats good for a laugh also, still that holly computer could do with replacing[smiley:crazy]
I reckon holly the quirky humanized computer on red dwarf would make a great add-on to corals bet settling system for customer complaints, brain the size of a planet and it pays you £0 out for a big win, certainly make ripping customers off a more pleasurable experience.
bff - Talk about ripping customers off what about the pc payer who had £100 quid on a dog at 4/1 and got paid out at 13/8 
That was an urban myth,commission and the premium charge are 2 different things based on different conditions,
Premium charge has no effect on your average edge in a market or the amount you win in any market and the profit margin you may average, only commission has this effect after the p&l in that market
Premium charge affects the amount of profit that you "net" for any week leading up to Wednesday
and affects the amount of profit you will of made for that week the charge relates too
trying to draw a comparative effect in a market result of the pc2 is impossible because net profit for the week and profit from a market are not directly relatable.
The nearest comparative effect would be to use an average profit per market example
Thus if your average strike rate was say 33% and average bsp was 4/1 then after pc2
£100 staked X 3 = £200 profit after a win - pc2@60% = £80 profit
or equivalent odds 3.8 or around 11/4 (not 13/8 per event as you state)
sorry to correct you but hey nobodies perfect
Premium charge has no effect on your average edge in a market or the amount you win in any market and the profit margin you may average, only commission has this effect after the p&l in that market
Premium charge affects the amount of profit that you "net" for any week leading up to Wednesday
and affects the amount of profit you will of made for that week the charge relates too
trying to draw a comparative effect in a market result of the pc2 is impossible because net profit for the week and profit from a market are not directly relatable.
The nearest comparative effect would be to use an average profit per market example
Thus if your average strike rate was say 33% and average bsp was 4/1 then after pc2
£100 staked X 3 = £200 profit after a win - pc2@60% = £80 profit
or equivalent odds 3.8 or around 11/4 (not 13/8 per event as you state)
sorry to correct you but hey nobodies perfect
Also note from my example if you increase your turnover average by 60% or find an alternative system of same frequency and strike rate but average bsp 4/1 X 1.6 then then there is no effect to your average profit margin after pc2 than the other system at 4/1 odds, add since you use my coral runner as an example, that drifted out to 8/1 and probably was 12/1 on betfair.
The premium charge is not an obstacle but a hurdle and hurdles can be passed!
The premium charge is not an obstacle but a hurdle and hurdles can be passed!
My prediction is that there will be an increased chance of any other excange adopting a premium charge also for many good reasons
1....weak players may use alterantive exchanges when they dont actually get charges premeuim charge
1....weak players may use alterantive exchanges when they dont actually get charges premeuim charge
sorry posted last post too early, here is the full post
My prediction is that there will be an increased chance of any other excange adopting a premium charge also for many good reasons
1....weak players may use alternative exchanges when they don't actually get charges premium charge
purely based on misunderstanding the charge and along with professionals that will use all exchanges to
maximize profits, the ratio of weaker and stronger players on reduced commission will evaporate the revenues at a corporately alarming rate.
2....alternative corporation will want to maximize there company profits.
3....infra-structure upgrades and need for growth will dilute the company profits.
4....Market forces always level out so there will always be edge cloning by competitive companies.
My prediction is that there will be an increased chance of any other excange adopting a premium charge also for many good reasons
1....weak players may use alternative exchanges when they don't actually get charges premium charge
purely based on misunderstanding the charge and along with professionals that will use all exchanges to
maximize profits, the ratio of weaker and stronger players on reduced commission will evaporate the revenues at a corporately alarming rate.
2....alternative corporation will want to maximize there company profits.
3....infra-structure upgrades and need for growth will dilute the company profits.
4....Market forces always level out so there will always be edge cloning by competitive companies.
How can any competitor match growth of the leading company on lower profit margins, there not charities
there in it to win it as much as those that use them, surely you have learned this lesson from the
top exchange betfair.
there in it to win it as much as those that use them, surely you have learned this lesson from the
top exchange betfair.
I thought you were going to stop winding people up Bff ?
But I only had 1 bet that week £100 at 4/1 on a dog race and got £160 winnings from BetFAIR
oh thats different, then you of course your right but please state that your average strike rate is 100% for that week, well done lol, but you cant really complain about pc2 effect if you can only find 1 profitable runner per week on a site that offers the best prices and highest winning liquidity
in history now can you [;)]
in history now can you [;)]
If I can find 180 profitable runners a day then surely you can do better than 1 per week my friend
remember all equations have to be relative or there dis-functional so to state that
pc2 =no profits
pc2 = no future profit growth
pc2 = increased betfair profits = betfair colapse
are all dis-fuctional equations as x and y involved somewhere would need to drastically change somewhere to create relativity or equilibrium
pc2 =no profits
pc2 = no future profit growth
pc2 = increased betfair profits = betfair colapse
are all dis-fuctional equations as x and y involved somewhere would need to drastically change somewhere to create relativity or equilibrium
like your post though doubled very sound point in a remote condition example[;)]
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