General Betting
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26 Jul 11
10:42
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Date Joined:
04 Jun 11
First let me say I am a traditional Punter ie I do not trade I simply back my opinion in the form of Bets and lays. I am also a premium account holder which seems to count for nothing because looking at my figures I am now perilously close to PC charges and it would seem inevitable that they will eventually occur. I had some sympathy for PC charges in their original form as we were led to believe that they were aimed at high volume traders who place large demands on the servers for relatively little commission paid. This no longer seems to be the case. It now appears that Betfair's greed is pushing them closer a bookmaker like approach to punters. The underlying message is that winners will be financially persecuted, the commission is not enough.
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Replies: 117
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cue the betfair pr team........
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If you are having to pay the PC, then by definition you are not a "Traditonal Punter" but an advantage player. Unlike the traditional bookmakers who only accomodate traditional punters, betfair will accept bets from advantage players.
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I think you understand what I mean by traditional punter ie- I am not a trader, I do not back or lay and then reverse the process to lock in a gauranteed profit. I simply back or lay a horse and thats it.
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Unlike sometraditional bookmakers who only accomodate traditional punters
Tidied that up a bit for you. |
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PC charges come into effect when your lifetime commission paid is less than 20% of your lifetime winnings AND your previous weeks commission is less than 20% of your previous weeks winnings. There is a one off allowance of 1k but once this has eroded you are become subject the the PC. The solution seems to be to drive up your commission paid via those break even or slightly better than break even strategies that one might normally discard. In other words bring in betting 'padding' to keep the PC police off your back.
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The solution seems to be to drive up your commission paid via those break even or slightly better than break even strategies that one might normally discard
Only if they are in different events from which you normally bet. See "calling churn to avoid pc bsh1tters" thread on this forum. |
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Absolutely correct Feck
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If you are having to pay the PC, then by definition you are not a "Traditonal Punter" but an advantage player. Unlike the traditional bookmakers who only accomodate traditional punters, betfair will accept bets from advantage players.
only after you let betfair rape you up the ass |
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SystematicBettingDotCom 26 Jul 11 11:23
PC charges come into effect when your lifetime commission paid is less than 20% of your lifetime winnings AND your previous weeks commission is less than 20% of your previous weeks winnings. There is a one off allowance of 1k but once this has eroded you are become subject the the PC. The solution seems to be to drive up your commission paid via those break even or slightly better than break even strategies that one might normally discard. In other words bring in betting 'padding' to keep the PC police off your back. |
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For someone with a Premium Account it amazes me that you're only now realising this....
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Yes. It catches anyone with a half decent edge. But apparently all the recreational players money belongs to them so if you take too much you have to give it back.
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Pumpkin
Not your usual high standard of post. Very disappointing to say the least. |
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I'm sorry to dissapoint you. But I appreciate that you think my posts are usually good. Maybe it's the wine i've had.
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The thing is though, they say they only break even with me as a client at 20%. Well, there is the transaction charge so it's not that costing them money. So why do my bets cost them a lot more than some placing the same volume of bets who loses? The answer is that they believe that have a right to take all the mug money for themselves.
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Wine brings the whine out in you then ?
Brings the p!ss and vinegar out in me. |
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You know I really wish I did know all the ins and outs of the BF platform cost structure.
I have yet to read one post on here that indicates that anybody else does either. I'm not supporting the PC but equally I'm not decrying it. I have no FACTS at hand to do either. I'm just supporting the point that until we know otherwise for sure, you have to assume that BF is making sound, intelligent business decisions aimed at growing the exchange, not destroying it or shrinking it into oblivion. |
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I'm sure woolworths, habitat, mfi etc. all thought the same. Bad decisions get made. Companys go under as a result.
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No question about that generalisation.
This could very well be a bad decision. But it could equally turn out to be a masterstroke. I just don't know. Does anybody yet ? |
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It could be a masterstroke. A week and a bit in and everything seems the same at the moment. If people have left I haven't noticed. But goodwill has been lost from betfairs most important clients. Longterm they might not get away with that.
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Anyway goodnight. I'm outta here, I've done my money for the night. Botafogo held on for a 2-1 win. Not good.
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Goodnight. Nice chatting with you.
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PumpkinSlayer : The thing is though, they say they only break even with me as a client at 20%. Well, there is the transaction charge so it's not that costing them money. So why do my bets cost them a lot more than some placing the same volume of bets who loses?
The punters who lose, break even or make small profits will be paying a huge percentage of their gross profit in commission. You only pay 20% so your activity is costing BF more, as in they are making far less from you (even after you've paid the premium charge) than they make from non pc customers. |
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But my activity isn't costing betfair anything more than a loser unless you assume money from losers somehow belongs to betfair instead of the poeple who seed their markets, supply the cash, intelligence and take all the risk.
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Your activity is costing more because you pay them less. To take it to extremes, if you won every bet you placed you would be paying less than 5% of your GP in comm before pc, while a break even punter could be paying 100%. Why would BF want to let you carry on at that rate? You are costing them money and bankrupting valuable losers from churning in the betting pool too quickly.
I'm guessing if you decide to go elsewhere BF believe you will soon be replaced by someone less successful than yourself, which is their goal I guess. |
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But in that statement is the assumption that betfair have a right to taking the losers money and not me. Even though it's me who takes all the risk etc.
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As Magician pointed out in the other thread (Andyl's thread) BF are the ones who took all the initial risk.
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No, I did as well not too long after. And their risk diminished rapidly. Mine is still very real.
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Doesn't mean they should cease to reap the rewards of the initial risk though.
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But they cashed in with the flotation. Rewards are now being taken from those who keep the site afloat and given to the idiots who thought buying their shares was a good idea.
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I understand that the Las Vegas casinos , having heard that a betting exchange is taking a share of winning punters profits, have plans to introduce WC's - no, not what you think - but a "Winnings Charge" on all profits made at the tables, the machines and in the Sportsbook.
A spokesman for Ballagio said "We provide the platform through which players can make money and it's only fair that those players who win consistently should pay a little extra because they are taking the food from our mouths by walking off with their profits. They are seriously jeopardizing the business model by draining the casino of its liquidity. In previous times we would have adopted other means, such as breaking a few arms and legs, to discourage winners from playing here, but we are legit now and don't do that sort of thing. It's in everyone's best interests, especially ours." The new charges, which are thought to be up to 60% of profits are to be be implemented as soon as the player has made a profit or after the first 5 minutes in the casino. There are rumours that casinos will also introduce entrance fees and charge for drinks which were previously free for table players. The old habit of providing free rooms for the high rollers, plus aeroplanes and cars, is to be abandoned on the grounds that these people have plenty of money and can afford their own transport. It is thought that this new business model will enable the gambling industry to recover from the disastrous last few years since the financial crisis. What else can people spend their money on, after all. Dateline April 1st, Vegas. |
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Let's say you were an investor. Five years ago, wd it have been better to invest in return for an equity share in Betfair or Bet365?
Pure exchanges are not that good a business. The model of giving a good deal to the self-destructing losers and fun players and excluding the shrewdies is a better one than providing a platform on which the shrewdies gradually extract the cash of the losers. I used to think that unlike with Woolworths, Pontins, Habitat etc. there was a secular change towards an exchange model. I now think that the change is in favour of market-efficient prices, but that the customer-facing bookie does not need to be an exchange. |
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askari, most of the winners on betfair were manufactured by betfair and could've been destroyed by them just as easily. wrt normal gambling, take away the shrewdies and a new level of shrewdies take over.
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Feck
BF surely has not manufactured the ability of many punters to use excell to process and analyse performance data to compile more accurate odds/prices than others ? Oh sorry I've just noticed you did say most pof the winners, not all. Coming back to the good value type punters, neither BF nor the HS bookies are ever going to be able to handle them very profitably are they ? I'm not sure what the solutions could ever be to have such punters in abundance on your sites ? Are there feasible ones to your knowledge ? |
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Feck, the reason that people winning on bf by trading and offering now-you-see-it-now-you-don't-offer have no moved to accurate calculation of true chances (in some field, however small) is that they haven't needed to. It has been more profitable to develop e.g. their software applications.
Perhaps they wd be able to bet and find value consistently. Or perhaps they wd dislike the variance and move to some other pastures like futures or currency trading. Bf's fundamental mistake was in conceiving itself as a traders' exchange. They cd have avoided all the confusion, the messiness and ill will of the pc s had they espoused some differential charging scheme for traders and bettors from the outset. |
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I largely agree w/ you and have no prob. w/ the principle of the pc.
The level at which it is levied, though, and its execution (its complexity, its confused rebating mechanism, its retrospective element, its communication etc etc) leave something to be desired; and I think there are more robust ways of bf sharing out the proceeds w/ winners that wd not be structured like the current charge. |
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If a winning punter on here frequently offer better prices than all the traditional bookies and still manage to make a good profit, then yeah BF should be very happy about that and be careful not to squeeze him so hard that he decides to leave. When BF try to become a bookmaker they will find that it takes intelligence and much research to be able to offer industry best odds and still make a profit. Odds higher than all the bookies ahould have the potential to attract new customers yes?
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Mr Anderson, if the punter wins, then the bookmaker, that is bf, loses. Why should betfair let this lie?
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Not sure I understand how you reason. It's other players who lose money to the winning player. If a traditional bookie offers better odds than the winning player on BF they can lose their money with them instead. Losing players can decide to bet elsewhere you know? On some events you can forget about trying to get a balanced book. There may be one or two popular selections that all recreational gamblers want to bet on. You're not going to get some random recreational gamblers who are willing lay those popular selections for tens of thousands at prices above the bookies. In my view people who help this site offer better odds than the bookies should be good.
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Second sentence should read: If a traditional bookie offers better odds than the players* on BF...
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