General Betting
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Why are you making these changes?
The Premium Charge was introduced in September 2008 to ensure that our most consistently successful customers are charged at least what it costs Betfair to provide the service that they ultimately benefit from.
At 20%, the Premium Charge ensures that we are not subsidising the profits derived by consistently profitable customers. However, breaking-even does not allow us to invest in the Exchange to the extent that we need to, in order to keep upgrading our platform and products, for all of our customers. Betfair is now requiring a small number of our most successful customers to pay a fair price for the service provided.
I and plenty more have no choice but to pay this charge and it makes it less painful if the money is re-invested back in only the EXCHANGE as written by you above on your faq (not to subsidise failing sub-products / future non exchange projects). Maybe even some of the PC taken can be given back to losing punters - some way to keep them interested?
My main recommendation, however, is a change to the frequency when the PC is charged. Of the 480 users (and rising future numbers), there will be different types of customer who are affected. In my opinion, the most valuable of this group - the liquidity providers i.e., the old fashoined punter who takes/asks for prices... we take on the most risk and are now being heavily punished due to the volatility in our results on a weekly basis. Though you are requesting 40% for this service (in my case), calculating my own pc at this new level for the past years shows a much higher payment due to how my results fall (as on a losing week we only get implied commission on our side and not a pc rebate) - even the possibilty of being removed from the game! Other gamblers i.e., hooverers, ir with time advantages will be less likley to be at more risk by the weekly changes. So if we are going to be penalised we will still pay our (intended) 40-60 charge but if this could be made monthly/quaterly/yearly at least we then have a lower risk of ruin (and in return you should keep your liquidity). Since this PC charge appears a shotgun approach it could at least be made fairer to all to those in this group.
I did previously write to you (q+a sessions) in terms of site improvements in the form of user security etc. Which, as far as I am aware, none have been implemented. It seems a lot of good ideas fall on deaf ears... probably justifiable by better use of capital, but would be nice to know upfront what your future intentions are (better communication)? Perhaps the sportsbook idea can be explained to us upfront too, instead of being sprung upon us (as seems the usual case). Many of us would like to know how this will affect us and how we can prepare for the future.
It is difficult writing the above objectively as our own usage of the site is biased to our betting styles, so please other forum contributors let me know where I am wrong! Better still offer a better solution to this pc payment to make it fairer (maybe someone has a good idea for rebates but can't see bf taking that on board). Note, Betfair can and do what they want; I would just like a fairer pc payment strategy so that the higher risk takers in this 480 group do not suffer a more unfair advantage to those with low risk/consistent return methods.
The Premium Charge was introduced in September 2008 to ensure that our most consistently successful customers are charged at least what it costs Betfair to provide the service that they ultimately benefit from.
At 20%, the Premium Charge ensures that we are not subsidising the profits derived by consistently profitable customers. However, breaking-even does not allow us to invest in the Exchange to the extent that we need to, in order to keep upgrading our platform and products, for all of our customers. Betfair is now requiring a small number of our most successful customers to pay a fair price for the service provided.
I and plenty more have no choice but to pay this charge and it makes it less painful if the money is re-invested back in only the EXCHANGE as written by you above on your faq (not to subsidise failing sub-products / future non exchange projects). Maybe even some of the PC taken can be given back to losing punters - some way to keep them interested?
My main recommendation, however, is a change to the frequency when the PC is charged. Of the 480 users (and rising future numbers), there will be different types of customer who are affected. In my opinion, the most valuable of this group - the liquidity providers i.e., the old fashoined punter who takes/asks for prices... we take on the most risk and are now being heavily punished due to the volatility in our results on a weekly basis. Though you are requesting 40% for this service (in my case), calculating my own pc at this new level for the past years shows a much higher payment due to how my results fall (as on a losing week we only get implied commission on our side and not a pc rebate) - even the possibilty of being removed from the game! Other gamblers i.e., hooverers, ir with time advantages will be less likley to be at more risk by the weekly changes. So if we are going to be penalised we will still pay our (intended) 40-60 charge but if this could be made monthly/quaterly/yearly at least we then have a lower risk of ruin (and in return you should keep your liquidity). Since this PC charge appears a shotgun approach it could at least be made fairer to all to those in this group.
I did previously write to you (q+a sessions) in terms of site improvements in the form of user security etc. Which, as far as I am aware, none have been implemented. It seems a lot of good ideas fall on deaf ears... probably justifiable by better use of capital, but would be nice to know upfront what your future intentions are (better communication)? Perhaps the sportsbook idea can be explained to us upfront too, instead of being sprung upon us (as seems the usual case). Many of us would like to know how this will affect us and how we can prepare for the future.
It is difficult writing the above objectively as our own usage of the site is biased to our betting styles, so please other forum contributors let me know where I am wrong! Better still offer a better solution to this pc payment to make it fairer (maybe someone has a good idea for rebates but can't see bf taking that on board). Note, Betfair can and do what they want; I would just like a fairer pc payment strategy so that the higher risk takers in this 480 group do not suffer a more unfair advantage to those with low risk/consistent return methods.
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One other point, an annual/quarterly pc charge could be made to be beneficial to bf in other ways i.e., making us keep our money in our betfair accounts for you to earn interest on. I am sure some beneficial ideas can be thought up.
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It wouldn't be hard for them to introduce a rebate system that doesn't invite fraud and they could then settle after each market (so people would know exactly where they stand) rather than have this Wednesday deduction. A far better option though is to introduce an interface and rules that deter the parasites and cheats who have made this charge necessary and remove the charge altogether by becoming a gambling exchange.
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Shame about the opening statement but I think you have made a good point. I don't know why bf chose to implement pc weekly, maybe because done less frequently the deductions would be much greater (although less overall). Another idea would be to calculate and deduct pc each time a wthdrawal is made. That would provide incentive to keep money in the system longer and give users the possibility of reducing their liability first.
The problem is there is little incentive to do this as whatever they do there will always be a few who will be outraged by it and will make mischief on here by misrepresenting the facts. If these people were more reasonable then bf maybe more inclined to listen to sensible ideas such as yours. |
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Feck, please explain in more detail how such a rebate system would work?
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"so please other forum contributors let me know where I am wrong!"
You are wrong when you think that anyone at betfair who makes any important decisions about charges actually cares one iota about anything that is written on the forum. I can see it now, someone running into a top exec meeting shouting "stop the discussions, there are some unhappy people on the forum who feel that these new charges are not fair. We need to rethink them immediately." |
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U.A. I did mention that my q+a ideas "fell on deaf ears" so I am not hopefull no, but have nothing to lose by expressing ideas here (also highlighting to others who haven't considered that 40-60 will in a lot of cases be a lot higher) etc.. This is killing the dream of the regular punter (myself all those years ago)
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They are concerned enough to put plants on the forum and didn't DJSUNSET encounter an internet stalker who trolled any online forums where DJ posted about betfair and started attacking DJ only to be outed as a respected employee of the towers, who was also high up the food chain...
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that's interesting dashero...i hope betfair are not moving from 'propaganda' to 'improperganda'.......
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There have been plenty of examples on other forums where trolls attacking posters who are critical of BF are exposed as being employees of the towers, so to think that BF give free run on their own forum is naive... turtleshead has had several posts deleted which didn't contain anything inflammatory but just highlighted the truth...
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There is a difference between trolling and posting an opposing view as part of a discussion.
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Getafix, after each market they update your lifetime profit, commission generated and deduct / rebate an amount such that your total pc paid is up to date. The reason they say they can't do this is because it would encourage evasion. e.g. You're up 100K, you've paid around 15K pc, you deliberately lose 100K to a non-pc paying account and you're then due a 15K rebate. I suggested they combat that by putting the rebates into a 'commission wallet' which they then automatically use to pay future commission charges (either normal or pc). That does add more complexity though so it might be simpler to just have a maximum rebate after each market equal to the average commission paid per market over the lifetime of your account. That would mean if you'd paid 15K in pc's and your average commission paid per market was £5 you'd have to lose in 1,500 markets to get that 15K back. If anyone could be bothered going through that betfair wouldn't be long in spotting it enabling them to close the account.
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* should read 3,000 markets, not 1,500.
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The reason they say they can't do this is because it would encourage evasion. e.g. You're up 100K, you've paid around 15K pc, you deliberately lose 100K to a non-pc paying account and you're then due a 15K rebate.
Of course you can do that just now the only difference being that instead of getting a 15K rebate you've got an account where your first 15K pc's will be waived. |
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Ahh! dgSunset, wonder what he is doing now?
Now there's a man that could write a post or two.  The lad had a good heart though.  |
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djSunset
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Couldn't always make it to the end of his posts and very often disagreed with him but I liked the way he thought and expressed himself. Shame he's not here.
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Before my day but I am intrigued, to say the least, by the continuing references to him as being possibly the best poster ever on here.
Or at least until I fortunately came along. |
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I think there are people here under some bizarre opinion that the goal is not to charge people more, but to run them off the site and take their place. They have already stated that if they lose liquidity from this that they will replace it, so what makes anybody think they care at all what people think? tbh they are probably laughing and hoping the all the big runners leave asap, so many threads i have seen allowed stay where the whole point was moving to the opposition, boycotts, whatever. They are allowing those discussions because it is what they ultimately want too...
imho |
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* goal is to charge people more, not to run them off the site and take their place.
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Some good ideas there Feck regarding possible rebates. At least then customers would genuinely be closer to their 40-60% marks.
They have already stated that if they lose liquidity from this that they will replace it Where is this quoted, just to try and get a bit of context? I think unless betfair were to copy winning accounts of say "value" punters (think that would be illegal - data protection act?) they would just get picked off by the "emerging" next wave of top bettors...which would force them to become just like any other bookie i.e., account restrictions. |
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They have already stated that if they lose liquidity from this that they will replace it,
so that would mean - punter vs betfair hoover bot? |
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I will try and find a quote. I have seen it quoted, not sure I have read it first hand.
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this forum is doing some strange things....feck's post being moved....my post being bumped down below 'the opposite' viewpoint.....hmmm
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They would have little problem replacing the parasites. I'd say they'd have big problems replacing the price sensitive gamblers but given we're talking about last5minutes.com it might not be as hard as I once thought. They run the risk though that they'll all be providing liquidity on betd@q. If that happens and betd@q run e.g. a 3 month 0% commission offer it won't all be as easy as betfair think.
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The exchange model is anyway inimical to price-sensitive gamblers, in that (w/ the interface and grazing population of traders) it doesn't pay the price-finders off sufficiently.
That is why I have to make so many friends with new and losing bookie accounts. |
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I do like this sensation of conspiracy theories and plants on the forum, it always makes it sound so exciting and dramatic rather than what it actually is.
Hang on there are some people at the door in full body armour with the words "cut out the middleman" across the front. hmmm what are all these red laser dots doing on me. AAARRRGGGHHH. |
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Betfair are really great and their charges are all really fair. Please continue....
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After each market they update your lifetime profit, commission generated and deduct / rebate an amount such that your total pc paid is up to date. In order to combat evasion (e.g. losing all your profits to a non-pc account to get a large rebate) they could make the maximum rebate per market equal to the average commission paid per market over the lifetime of your account. That would mean if you'd paid 15K in pc's and your average commission paid per market was £5 you'd have to lose in 3,000 markets to get that 15K back.
When you think about it, had they done this in the first place they might have escaped a lot of the flak the pc brought on them. Having a lump deducted on a Wednesday probably magnified the bad feeling about the charge several times over. The fact betfair never even considered this effect shows how out of touch their ex-city boys are with the realities of dealing with ordinary punters. |