Will Betfair increase the PC in the future?

At present doesn't mean in the future :)

Standard politician bullsh1t answer, it means yes of course we are going to increase it but don't want to admit it just at this moment in time.

yes. 2+ years after introducing it and 1+ year after tweaking it, things were okay enough for them to have no plans to change it. yet less than a year later they'd spotted it wasn't working, come up with a plan to change it, and got it to a point where they could announce and implement it.

personally, I'd believe them if they said "we will make no changes to the charging regime for a year" or something that specific. but amything with any wriggle room or vagueness, I'd completely discount.

Like it Johnny.

Viva
Maybe their modelling abilities are not up to scratch ?.
Maybe they're just about as good as those in the big investment bank mortgage bond departments ?.
Oh sh!t we really could be in trouble now.

there acting like rip off merchants

Lori
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Still waiting GW!

Fwiw I don't think they'll increase it, I think they'll lower the threshold.


That is an increase!

I'm learning to talk betfairish

Make as much money as possible before they lower it from £250,000 to 50 shekels!

I would bet my life that they have a whole department whose sole job description is to find ways of getting more of their customers wallet.

The 250,000 mark is solely aimed at those punters (or even cheats) who have been on here a LONG time and are successful with it .
It doesn't take a bright spark to work out that this type of gambler isn't going to lose overnight.

Those who have made a living on here in a shorter more recent timeframe may well hit the rocks ,and to BF they would be worth a fortune in commission.

BF have identified the former as definite loss making customers   and i feel they will have no further desire to change this threshold radically  but instead will  wait for those who catch up with it .

Investor, as i mentioned i don't think it would be in their interest to lower it too far ....150 max imo .

Even modest winning gamblers would hit that target in 10- 15  years .

Will Betfair increase the PC in the future?


There was a time when the top rate of income tax (surtax) was circa 96%, I seem to remember. So, yes is the answer, its possible.

THEY WILL LOWER HOW MUCH YOUR ALLOWED TO WIN ,EVENTUALLY THEY WILL GET RID OF WHO THEY SEE A THREAT TO THEIR BUISNESS ,

A BUISNESS WITH SHAREHOLDERS WILL TRY AND GAIN THE MAXIMUM PROFITS FOR THEIR SHARE HOLDERS ,AND IF THAT MEANS GETTING RID OF CERTAIN WINNERS I THINK THEY WILL

THATS MY OPINION ,AND IM ENTITLED TO IT,THIS IS ENGLAND

increasing from 20% to even 25% will catch a huge load of punters including myself and unlike some punters I'm not reliant on here whatsoever so would be off in a flash. In fact my betting turnover was 60% here about 7 years ago now its about 12%. Anyone serious about making money needs to open up their options and if BF is the only option they'll have to grin and bear it.

they say that they break even on 20 percent premium charge ...  then how did the survive all those years when it didnt exist ..

From the other users who were already paying more than 20%.

My view is that they won't lower the threshold, the way it's implemented more and more people will be caught in the net anyway and 250k seems like a decent sum to someone starting out.  I know when I began I didn't imagine for a minute that I would ever make that much.

250k is a decent sum , most modest gamblers would be happy to pay 60% having earned that much ,it would be a dream for MOST ...that's the thinking you have to understand ,no one (bar the shrewdie ) is going to even take a second look at these charges ,and they're the very folk who represent BFs life blood .

And thats just how it is

most modest gamblers would be happy to pay 60% having earned that much

coach, you might have missed something on your way to this conclusion......the entire evolution of the human species, where getting less than half of something you've earned will cause anger, resentment, flatulence and of course...revenge...!

Its a phuckin liberty to expect punters, poistion takers to hand over more then they have won.  If people are having a free lunch on bots etc they should be hit

i agree iz , i don't think it's right ...and i will no doubt get caught in this web in the years ahead and have a moan about it ..however,when fairly successful folk are penalised it tends to have little sympathy from the average man in the street ...and they're the ones who (lets be honest) keep BF and the rest of us rolling  .Their opinion is of greater importance to BF .

For stability, perhaps betfair could write up a "premium charge future commitment" ruling out bad things they might do, like dropping the threshold to 3k, upping the normal rate to 25% etc?

catfloppo     06 Jul 11 14:55 
they say that they break even on 20 percent premium charge ...  then how did the survive all those years when it didnt exist ..

From the other users who were already paying more than 20%.

what users were already paying 20 percent before the pc charge  ?

Evereone apart from the ones that were put on PC when it was first introduced had paid more than 20 % of their gross profit in commission.

Just Checking Joined: 25 Jun 06
Replies: 7045 06 Jul 11 17:49 
For stability, perhaps betfair could write up a "premium charge future commitment" ruling out bad things they might do, like dropping the threshold to 3k, upping the normal rate to 25% etc?

-----------

I think some specific information along these lines would be very welcome. but i don't expect it to happen.

They wouldn't know themselves though .A lot depends on the latest hikes  ,if folk pay up without a whimper and stay on site they will increase it again over time (or possibly lower the threshold a little).

I would also expect the basic rate to creep up to 25/ 30% over time as well.

I can see some scope for pricing increases in more comm. bands.

People like m/s bumping around 4% cd live w/ being higher, while the really significant people to bf on 2% are not going to be affected by a points system that makes it harder to keep up.

FINE AS FROG HAIR
04 Jul 11 21:55 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,971 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
The shrewdies are getting smsrter and greedier by the day perhaps ?

....and they all work at Betfair by the looks of things

FINE AS FROG HAIR
The shrewdies are getting smsrter and greedier by the day perhaps ?

Not this one, I have been on maximum greed from the outset.  Luckily for the rest of you ([;)]) I have a very high lazy setting too.

Lori Joined: 20 Apr 04
Replies: 35591 04 Jul 11 20:46   
My bet would be 250k becomes 100k


That would be my bet too.

I might email betfair and ask for a market.


Where will the PC profit threshold be in a years time?

Over £250K
£250K
£150K-£250K
Under £150K.


I'm sure they'd put one up ;)

Restrict the amounts of markets each of us can play , 50 a week ?
Restrict banks - max 50,000 ?
Up data charges.
Charge commission on a sliding scale according to lifetime profits . starting at 30k and 20%/30% up to 500k and 40%-60%
No commission on newbies for a month.
No automated betting.

Lets get back to basics  .

Coachbuster, some of them suggestions deserves a couple of these ...

Not so bad then ,are they ?  [;)]

Why would you restrict banks and markets per week ??

why would they impose a limit an cut there own revenue

even under a tier system 60 % is shocking

To stop greed  .

There are some folk  who spend  hours and hours on here just because money is there to be made.

That's not normal, in any normal job you wouldn't do that .

sales jobs ?!

Rs1 - you have to lose this idea that very successful  gamblers paying a charge are of great  importance to BF ,they are not .
  I realise this, it's an eco system which needs respecting.

Yes ,and Sales work is about the most inefficient work you will find anywhere in the UK .

i never said they were important or not

you said 'There are some folk  who spend  hours and hours on here just because money is there to be made.

That's not normal, in any normal job you wouldn't do that . '

that ridiculous



you said ,

Restrict the amounts of markets each of us can play , 50 a week ?
Restrict banks - max 50,000 ?


thats ridiculous they cutting there own revenue ! that makes no business sense

They're not cutting revenue though are they ?  They're revenue has been mullered because a lot of losing gamblers have become disillusioned with the site.

There seems to be a rate at which even 'mug' gamblers are happy to lose at ,and by all accounts it's too quick on here .

Their *

Coachbuster, the starting point for a pc based on lifetime profits is too low. It wd hit some arbers bringing in liquidity and punters on a lucky run. The limitations on the number of markets and amount held wd be incomprehensible to most people and serve as a deterrent.

On the bots and data request charges, there is merit in the underlying ideas. I proposed increased bet sizes w/ lifetime profit a while back (wh/ I suspect wd be v. effective in getting losers to lose more slowly, as wd slicing and dicing the queue into average bettors' sized portions) but I am not sure whether even these suggestions are practicable.

incomprehensible to most people and serve as a deterrent .
___________________________________________________________

Surely most folk bet in pennies ? and  the amount of markets playable would decrease prop/  with lifetime profits?

As you say these things have to be practical .

So you think Betfair shouldn't let people keep a 500 k bank here if they wanted to , earning Betfair an easy risk free amount of roughly 15 - 20 k on bank interests only ???

Why would you want to if the exposure limit was set much lower unless you were a money launderer ?,  and  do BF earn interest on a customer's bank   ? Not sure they should be allowed to really ,still that's a different subject for another day.

You didn't mention anything about restricting people with low exposure limits.  Is that now one of your suggestions ?
  Of Course they earn interest on customers money.  As long as the customers don't get credited with it , who did you think benefitted from it ?
   Do you also doubt that online bookmakers have their customers money placed in banks at the best terms possible ?

Another idea to stop greed would be to have 2 Betfairs, a BF1 and 2 .

Once you'd exceeded a profit of 100k in

Eddie, i can't answer Qs about banks , same with solicitors and trust funds .... it's wrong if they do

not sure what happened to my post on 13.48 and 13. 49

Coachbuster
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They're not cutting revenue though are they ?  They're revenue has been mullered because a lot of losing gamblers have become disillusioned with the site.

There seems to be a rate at which even 'mug' gamblers are happy to lose at ,and by all accounts it's too quick on here .


Good God coach, have you been brainwashed or something? [;)]

I keep an open mind Investor, only using BFs reasoning i am trying to make sense of the situation (if they are to be believed of course)

Posted by Pythia on 02 Oct at 09:57.

People can take a view about whether charging fewer than 500 winning customers out of more than 110,000 exchange punters, last week, is the right move for the overall health of the exchange. But to suggest that Betfair is intent on forever putting up prices and charging whatever it can get away with is risible.

Risible indeed...
........................

Back on topic, the purpose of this thread was to point out who was right and who was talking bollox all along.  Good spot Investor.

I'm afraid there will be no market on where the PC profit threshold will be.


Dear Peter

Thank you for your e-mail.

I am afraid that we would not be able to offer a market for where the threshold will be in 12 months time.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further enquiries.

Kind regards,

Sam Jackson


Maybe if others email they'll change their mind.
It could be a good market.

found this interesting post on another forum.....seems like a case of history repeating?


In the early 90s when everythiing was flying high, some bean counter in the Hong Kong Jockey Club (HKJC) decided that their biggest customers were winning too much money.  They were "preying" on the public.  They had to go!  Didn't matter that they made hundreds of millions of action.

The Hong Kong Jockey Club then proceeded to ban, personally abuse and chase away some of the biggest players in the history of world gambling.  i.e. Bill Benter and friends.  Highly profitible customers to their operation.  An insane business decision.

In the following years, their pool sizes dropped dramatically year after year - and with it their commissions and liquidity.

After a crisis, a change of CEO and a public apology.  They not only begged the Professionals to return - but added a 10% rebate on all losing bets over HK$10k to generate action.  The pools instantly responded with major liquidity and pool size increases.  The HKJC is happy again and so are the punters.

All you Gents  and Ladies , Why not sit back and lets see what unfolds  end of July , instead of second guessing .

Brilliant post iz77778.

Haha, nice one for sending the email five leaves left

You should email Betdakk and ask them to offer the market.

lol yep, betduck might put one up.

Tell them you'll seed it to a 101%

They'll give you 0.5% commission and a free mug

i assume it's not the real sam "values of the shadow of death" jackson.

valleys ffs

Coachbuster.
"There are some folk  who spend  hours and hours on here just because money is there to be made.
That's not normal, in any normal job you wouldn't do that. "

I hope you're joking, that's a very very silly thing to say.
And wanting to punish people for spending their own time if they so wish making money is beyond silly.

Just checking ,
Yes, like much i say  may sound silly to the average person ,but then so does 63.5 % commission or whatever it works out in real terms .Try explaining that to your non betting mates and see the look on their faces !!

I'm simply saying if BF are to be believed about keeping an 'eco system' going ,then something needs implementing to stop the well running dry , a time or markets limit is a sensible idea in my opinion .

It would be akin to a 4 day week ,during a bad recession . Coming together for the common good.

Try explaining that to your non betting mates

Do people really have mates that don't bet?

My mate has been on Betfair for 3 years now. Bets every weekend down the pub on his iPhone.

He still doesn't  have a clue how commission works and until I showed him his Betting Histroy on his home PC he didn't even believe that he had payed any.

Lori .

Just checking - don't the government punish folk with higher than normal taxes for earning over a certain amount,some of them may also work very long hours ?

CB: There are plenty of jobs where people work more for more pay, it's not abnormal, it's quite normal.
It for example, is exactly what paid overtime is. It's why people take second and third jobs : using up more hours of their life to make money. It's why self employed people might do an 80 hour week. If money is there to be taken by working at it, people will take it, nothing wrong with that.

JC , In a booming economy there is nothing wrong with that (if that's what people really want ) .

However, If you overfish the Betfair waters ,all you will end up with is seaweed . (apparently)

Have to disagree with you there Coach.


Why can the big three make double what Betfair do with 103% books for eternity yet Betfair will run out with sub 101% books?

If they killed the cheats there wouldn't be an issue. The bots don't need to go.

Rocket ,you and I probably make the majority of our money from bots , i know I do .. bots cannot think  and its easy to out think them , but there seems to be a massive problem with them as a general forum opinion of them ,and not just amongst losing gamblers . This site need to be a level-ish playing field

I could happily live without them on here .

Cheats do need kicking off big time ,they're a scourge ... agreed ,as we all are

As far as the big 3 go, They  run a totally different ship though Rocket . They are seeing BF as a friend more than a foe

Rocket to the FACE
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You should email Betdakk and ask them to offer the market.

That would be a great publicity stunt!


Don't forget Betfair isn't that cheap compared to traditional bookies for fun bets. Betfair may frequently offer bets price according to their own odds comparison, but if they added Pinnacle to the list of bookies compared against, their match odds prices wouldn't look as good as they do.

bets price = best price

Investor
For the large majority of modest winning punters on here, BF is all about winning just a relatively little amount wihout being banned ( which they can't do on the HS), and is also about being able to lay quickly and easily in big field horse races.
It's not at all about the aspirations of giving up their day jobs and becoming full time professional gamblers.
Big winners don't really bother them at all just as long as those big winners don't threaten the basic viability of the exchange.
And that is what BF is currently saying. Unless these big winners are curtailed in some form or manner, they will eventually take everybody down with them.
The debate should therefore be about whether BF is overdramatizing the situation just to cover up a big money grab for their shareholders.
All the other stuff being debated is essentially an irrelevancy.

Of course Betfair is overdramatizing the situation.
  That's how you do it when you want the people to believe your lies, it's just like politicians do.
  If betfair hadn't spent fortunes on developing all these non exchange stuff like the arcade, virtual racing and tradefair, their earnings the last year would probably have been 50 - 60 million instead of the 18 million they reported(I think).
   I'm not saying devoloping these things was a bad buisniss decision, but you can't blame customers use of the exchange for the lack of growth in earnings when you spend huge amounts on the developing of non exchange features.

I reckon that could very well be the nub of the whole debate.
BF has gone down the wrong path, has lost its way, and now is crying out for help to find their way back.
But is anybody listening ?

Johnny the guesser, Coachbuster and partially you ?

For the large majority of modest winning punters on here, BF is all about winning just a relatively little amount wihout being banned ( which they can't do on the HS), and is also about being able to lay quickly and easily in big field horse races.
It's not at all about the aspirations of giving up their day jobs and becoming full time professional gamblers.
Big winners don't really bother them at all just as long as those big winners don't threaten the basic viability of the exchange.
And that is what BF is currently saying. Unless these big winners are curtailed in some form or manner, they will eventually take everybody down with them.
The debate should therefore be about whether BF is overdramatizing the situation just to cover up a big money grab for their shareholders.
All the other stuff being debated is essentially an irrelevancy.

What you're saying is that Betfair is just like any other bookmaker - just with a different interface.  The bookmaker always wins.

Is that the new thinking from the board?

Just don't actually ban anybody for winning.
Just make it difficult/impossible to win a bloody fortune. That's the line they have seemingly drawn.
And you know what ? The mass of ordinary non-aspirational punters on here are not going to give a flying.

And you know what ? The mass of ordinary non-aspirational punters on here are not going to give a flying.

Only because they don't know the truth.  Will Betfair advertise this fact?  No.

The reasons for Betfair's success is because it didn't ban winner - because it offered a glimmer of hope that it WAS possible to win from gambling. It was word of mouth advertising, the viral growth of the client base from the selling of the dream (the countless YouTube videos, and trading websites).  Betfair have killed the dream, and hope nobody will notice.

You can still win very tastily btw.
You can also lay.
You can also bet and lay IR.
All still very attractive selling points.

I have no idea how I'm even capable of posting on here at the moment.
I can hardly see the fcking keyboard.
Just proves Rocket's point, I suppose.
I will just argue anything with anybody for the bloody sake of it.
They will probably put it on my gravestone.

Think BF was more sold on 20% better odds [load of cr@p] than winners welcome. At least thats what i remember seeing when I went for a pi55 in a pub many years ago. But the truth is unveiling in that BF is just like all the others and don't think any of the sane members are fooled any longer.

Are there any figures anywhere breaking down how BF does in their various bloated areas?

Be interesting to see what amount they need to spend on keeping the core product going and how much profit that makes against similar figures for all the other shyte they now do.

.
http://corporate.betfair.com/

If you look , you'll probably find all the information you want here somewhere.

.
http://corporate.betfair.com/investor-relations/results-centre.aspx

Or you could just start looking from here. That will save you some time.

£344 Average Revenue per user (Far higher than the competition)

(Their words not mine)

 Pricing
We have reviewed our pricing structure. The vast majority of our customers currently pay a fair price for their use of the Betfair platform. However, we will be adjusting pricing for a very small number of our most successful customers whose payment of commissions and charges does not reflect the benefit they gain from the Betfair ecosystem. These changes will take effect over coming months.

This is from their presentation of results.

  Not a word of these customers not being profitable for Betfair, only that they are to succesful and can be fleeced.

[i]Marketing and operational efficiency
We will continue to control our marketing and operations costs tightly as the business grows. Our unique product gives us a very loyal customer base with high retention rates. This allows us to spend a lower percentage of revenue on marketing compared to other online gaming operators, as we do not have to replace a high proportion of our customer base each year lost through churn.[/i]

I'm not sure if this backs up there arguments for introducing and later increasing Premium Charge

Surely it is implied in the sentence before the one you have highlighted?  Although they have moved from the 'profitable' of the first pc to talk about a 'fair price'.

There is a big difference in "not paying a fair price" and "not being profitable"

Moregoodies from their presentation :

Customers
Total active customer numbers grew by 15% over the year, with the FIFA World Cup attracting a large number of new players. During the second half we concentrated on winning high-value customers through a more targeted and efficient marketing programme. We also realigned our customer retention and promotions teams to focus on this segment. Specifically, we undertook a targeted campaign for the Grand National in April 2011 focusing on acquiring high value customers. . As a result we acquired 35,000 fewer customers overall for the Grand National and Q4 customer numbers fell year-on-year. But this was offset by a significant increase in average revenue per customer as we had more high-value activity. . This adjustment to our customer approach will also help to enhance our future margin performance as we achieve higher lifetime payback on our marketing spend.
We achieved a better-than-expected cost per acquisition, reduced by 21% to £104. This cut the proportion of revenue spent on marketing to 24% – in line with historic levels and significantly below the prior year‟s 29%.

  Don't they say they need the PC money to attract new (losing) customers ?

cheers Eddie

A lot of the facts and figures are in this link which is a breakdown of their revenue and costs which I have been reading through:

http://corporate.betfair.com/investor-relations/~/media/Files/B/Betfair/press-releases/2011/2011-06-29.pdf

Yes, that's true and I think it's an unfortunate choice of words considering they have 3 different versions of what a fair price is.

I actually wish they wouldn't try to justify in these terms, a straight - "We regret to inform you that we are putting the prices up again.  We have thought long and hard about this and consider it the best decision for betfair." would be easier to digest.

I remember when they changed the commission discount system my account manage called me and told me I would get an email explaining the changes.  "I'm not going to try and dress this up", he said, "it's a price rise". Much better than what was in the email.

Sorry that is in reply to eddie's previous post.  My fingers just aren't fast enough anymore:p

There is a big difference in "not paying a fair price" and "not being profitable"

There is also a big similarity.  Ask 100 different gambling accountants to indepedently quantify a figure for each and you'll get 100 different answers.

Ask the same accountant to do it 100 times and you'll get 100 different answers

I actually wish they wouldn't try to justify in these terms, a straight - "We regret to inform you that we are putting the prices up again.  We have thought long and hard about this and consider it the best decision for betfair." would be easier to digest.

Yep, their explanation/justification is rather insulting as ultimately the service they provide is pretty homogeneous to all users

Eddie ,
I don't like the charges any more than you do ,it spells bad news for many players long term however,I am trying to see this from BFs own point of view ,they want to maximise profits ,much the same way you do ...no good burying your head in the sand .
What you are looking for is a Mother Teresa of betting sites which doesn't exist , Businesses are normally run by business people or hire business gurus ,that's how it is ,folk will charge what they think they can get away with .... and i'm probably right in thinking that you will try to make on here what you can get away with at the expense of losing punters.
That established , the decision now BF and other people taking notes will probably follow is how this will effect the exchange ...if it reacts badly ,then BF may realise it as a bad decision and maybe change tack or implement no further charges ....if all goes well,they will no doubt bring more charges  in at a later date.

Remember, winning 250k over a period of time isn't achieved  by luck,it's done by skill or even by theft.
I get stung heavily  for charges myself Eddie ,and may get caught in this new net over time ....so i should be against it in theory ,but  we also have to be realistic and say BF are going to play it to their advantage .

So Why haven't they lowered the threshold if that's the case and its only about short term greed you may ask  ?

Because i would imagine there are, and have been a great number of players on here who have build up a profit of 50/100k or so and then through bad discipline /unlucky sequences have come unstuck,earning a mega load of commission for BF , Bf have possibly decided that the very top players aren't going to be making them sort of mistakes in the same way.