PC - Why all the moaning?

And no, this is not me sh!t stirring under a different chatname.
But all the same I am jealous that I didn't post it up.

people are blowing up out of principle, rather than the effect it will have on them??

I set up an account at betd** last night, will I bet there? you bet, not as much liguidy but in the markets that have the $$ I'll bet there out of principle, How many others will do the same??

IT maintenance and upgrades

johnny this would also now include high frequency bots that are ready to hoover up your bet on a faller in racing, your bet .5 seconds before the suspend on a goal in soccer etc etc.

maybe we should start calling you Johnny 7 OMA (one man army)......just johnny versus the betfair bots....a fight to the death...!!

Aha, thought it was about time we heard from JTG, the betfair plant with the same tired old crap.

1st...betfair said it cost was 20%    now it 40% to 60%...  to get only 40% of profit but 100% of losers, is not a risk i will take

2nd...the fact that betfair business model needs 40% to 60% of eveyone money to make a profit means betfair is f-cked anyway

befair get rid of the course and track side players and every one thinks they will be better off,only trouble is betfair have there
own team of traders who will hoover up so joe publick is going to be worse of not better
.

I can understand people moaning about it, it's clearly not good news for a number of people.  That doesn't mean its not the right thing for betfair to do and I haven't seen any reasoned cases made that is isn't so.

cat, are you really, really, really sure you don't hold betfair shares?

anyone that thinks the tax is right,has no idea about gambling

I'm still waiting for the poker sites to come up with that line of reasoning, and for them to take 60k off one of their most successfull players because they win 100k during a month after all these people are draining money from the site at relatively low cost, they need money for advertising etc etc, and all the other crap that betfair regurgitate.

"That doesn't mean its not the right thing for betfair to do and I haven't seen any reasoned cases made that is isn't so"

There have been hundreds, you just tend to ignore them all.

Saying that poker sites don't do it isn't a reasoned case

Of course it is, they survive and make fortunes without needing to do it, so why can't betfair?

turtleshead...this was the veiw of casinos about poker before poker become a hit on TV...

You've said that before nairda, but before poker was on TV casinos used to add large chunks of money to prize pools.

Until about 2001 (When Paradise was ruling the world) pretty much all poker tourneys in this country carried a guarantee that was either unlikely to be met, and/or was just a sum of added money to the total taken.

There were no entry fees, you just paid for what the tourney cost.

Around 2001 after some LNP series and after the success of Paradise 10+1 tourneys, this changed pretty rapidly.

where when did this happen...maybe at some small p!iss ass casino in england...you may have got this in england, where there was rules and law on how many slot machines and BJ table casino could have, but in the casino world where there was no shut law , you not even get a free drink of for you $110 buy in

Everywhere in England and Scotland yes.

You'd get a free buffet for a few hours of 3/6 in the Bellagio in '99 although the rake WAS huge I concede.

Bellagio was special case...it was 1 of not many casinos in the world where you could win money of the donkey and the casino manger not act as if you just steel the money fron the casino it self

turtles, I think we'll have to agree that we have different standards for what constitutes a reasoned case.

Betfair are now suggesting a maximum of a 40:60 profit split.

Seems like a bargain to me.

At least Johnny was honest about his username.

Great fishing by the way...

iz77778, the fact that you take my stance on the pc as evidence of my being a shareholder by implication means that you think the changes benefits the shareholder.  Making changes that benefit the shareholders is what people in charge of running a company are expected to do so in a roundabout way you are justifying their actions.

What, seeing lots of markets empty because nobody in their right mind would want to risk their money for 80% of the profits (let alone 60 or even 40!) is in the interests of the company

The real world?  Who in the real world does a job where the odds of success suggest they're almost certain to lose most or all of the money they put in?  The people who win significantly in Betfair have very much defied the odds. For now.  And even if they're currently doing well, there's no guarantee of future success, which is why it's not unfair of them to gripe at having to give back 60% when they're taking on such a level of risk.

Betfair, on the other hand, have a system that's continuing to make them money month in month out. If exchange activity is going up over twice as fast as their revenue, perhaps they should be looking to drop markets that are proving too expensive to run, or maybe they shouldn't be wasting money on so many bells and whistles. Or perhaps they should just be happy that they're continuing to make more and more money in these far from prosperous times. Their current strategy has a fair chance of putting their golden egg layer at risk.

And even if they're currently doing well, there's no guarantee of future success,

In most cases that's not true and even if it was the people in question would just stop rather than lose the money back.

It wasn't me that said it [:p]

Do you really, honestly believe that the markets are going to be empty because of this?

That was for turtles :)

catfloppo, it's already happened on many of the smaller markets, due to the current pc, have you not noticed?

Hardly stretching the imagination to see that continuing, is it?

No, I haven't but then I don't look at the markets very often.  Which sports do you think have altered?

Of course markets will be empty (unless betfair seed) because of this, that's why half the markets vanished last time!

Liquidity on the US Horse Racing markets certainly seems to have fallen in the last few days. Some races last night ended without a single bet being placed.

Massive drops in liquidity in things like Leg/Set betting in darts/tennis. Correct scores in snooker.

Markets where you are probably not going to fill in a whole book and so paying 20% extra the times you win simply became not worth fighting the bots over anymore.

Which sports will theoretically be most impacted by " big winners" withdrawing/reducing their current support/usage of the site ?

Lori, my bot plays on snooker correct score.  We may have done battle!

Post crossed with last one from Lori.

Interesting cat, I've posted about the snooker bots several times!

One day when this is all done I'll go through the two main types of snooker bots and my attempts to beat them both. (One very successfully, one is pretty much a draw and always will be - suspect the latter is yours)

lori id love someone to explain how on earth you go about creating a bot?

is it purely people who are computer whizz kids that are capable of using these?

u hear many people on forum say that bots are gtd profit makers, in which case

surely wouldnt more people do them?

they sometimes go wrong which is always nice when it happens if the wrong info is programed into them telling them to do the wrong thing.i have on occasion had some nice touchs when this happens and have no sympathy at all when this happens and love to give them a good bashing for all the times they have jumped me in markets.

they sometimes go wrong which is always nice when it happens if the wrong info is programed into them telling them to do the wrong thing.i have on occasion had some nice touchs when this happens and have no sympathy at all when this happens and love to give them a good bashing for all the times they have jumped me in markets.

That would be really interesting, Lori.  I doubt you can manipulate my bot but you can easily pinch value from it if you're smart enough so I'm sure you're up on me!  Luckily there are enough who aren't to cover the costs of feeding the shrewdies ;)

scarecrow if there are bots working in say frame betting, can u explain to me how

a bot knows if a red is safe on cushion or a pink has been missed in middle etc etc, because i get jumped constantly by bots and they seem to know when to cancel
at the right time, when surely if its just a bot they cant assess whats happening on
a snooker table or am i just being stupid. i suppose i am.

cat just curious have you ever put the wrong info in one of yours.i have little idea about them but as i said in my previous post i have seen some real howlers in the past from some users.the last one was when someone was backing a side in a rl handicap market i think it was +6 for example at a shorter price than they were in the +12 market and did a large amount in perhaps 10 minutes pre off their mistake cost them about 12-15k.

I don't use bots, but I know how you would build one (Which is entirely different to being able to build one. I understand how programming works but not the languages or way they interface with websites)

Several things you can do and all levels in between.

a) Have a human press a number 1 might be a pot with position, 5 might be a horrible miss. Bot then readjusts current prices based on that.

b) Steal the odds of winning from one market, and turn those into frame prices.

c) Steal the odds of frame prices and narrow the gap by undercutting the odds currently on offer.

Getting jumped isn't likely to be bots, that's likely to be people with faster pictures than you (although those people could also be using bots to aid their betting of course)

calla you would be better asking someone like cat who uses them i am pretty clueless on them but like lori i do know how to manipulate some of them at times.if they are overound bots i guess they only make offers when their is money on the other side and withdraw their offers as soon as this money vanishes quicker than you can manually.

scarecrow, the worst thing that happened to me was that betfair loaded some horse racing markets with the wrong start date which caused my bot to think that the race was due to run in a few minutes when actually it was over 24 hours away.  Someone spotted this, manipulated the markets and greened up to the tune of about 3k.

Needless to say I added a bit of code soon after to prevent a recurrance.

thanks for replying cat.i thought something like that would be the biggest risk.i suppose though over time blips like that will easily be covered.

catfloppo, can i assume then that as long as u load info correctly, using a bot

is basically printing money or at the very worst you cant ever lose?

i assume then u must be on 60% then as surely you must have creamed 250k plus

on this site by now surely?

Lori, I used to do a bit of the correct score snooker. I just got a bit bored of playing leapfrog with Catfloppo's bot!

Tbh there just wasn't enough liquidity there to make it worthwhile for a manual player. My "edge" (if I could even call it that), was just too simple, so I moved on to other things. It was good for a while though.

Last time I played the snooker cs was the 2010 WC final. I remember I left up some offers between the Sunday/Monday, but some storms took out my internet overnight and I was offline for several days. When I did get back on, I was somewhat surprised to see I'd won on that market (although undoubtedly it cost me a fair chunk)!

I'm quite a small player so small liquidity can be okay for me when combined with several other outs/markets.

It's certainly very intense, I was a gibbering wreck after this year's event, although I did pretty well on it.
Don't think I've EVER been so tired after Betfair action

I can relate to that Lori! Not for me anymore. I'm too old

A lot of assuming going on callataxi and mostly wrong I'm afraid. It's just as hard to make money with a bot, although to a certain extent you can just sit back and watch. I remember there used to be jokes on here about a bot that you could buy for £20 and all you did was plugged it in and told it how much money you wanted to make each day.  I can assure you its not like that!

I'm not on 60% as my lifetime rate is 33.9% but yes, I have made over 250k.

So it was you, El Bandido....[;)]