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01 Jul 11
20:18
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Date Joined:
19 May 03
For the first time in years I'm seriously considering giving up this business entirely.
I'll be on 40%, and I will probably still be able to function reasonably well if I devote some time to developing some 'churning' bots to help keep commission levels up. But I fear for what Betfair will spring on us next. It has only been 2 and a half years or so since the PC was originally introduced, and already they have dramatically increased the level of the charge.
One of the massive advantages of being a pro gambler is the feeling of independence of authority, and the sense that one has control of one's destiny. These latest moves by Betfair thoroughly undermine that sense, and force us to suspend any faith we might have had that this company will continue to offer us a genuine exchange for our betting.
I'll be on 40%, and I will probably still be able to function reasonably well if I devote some time to developing some 'churning' bots to help keep commission levels up. But I fear for what Betfair will spring on us next. It has only been 2 and a half years or so since the PC was originally introduced, and already they have dramatically increased the level of the charge.
One of the massive advantages of being a pro gambler is the feeling of independence of authority, and the sense that one has control of one's destiny. These latest moves by Betfair thoroughly undermine that sense, and force us to suspend any faith we might have had that this company will continue to offer us a genuine exchange for our betting.
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9 years
250K+ net profit
1 post (and it's a doozy)
rixy
250K+ net profit
1 post (and it's a doozy)
rixy
Moving to another exchange for the "Betfair 480" is probably the best option
I can see another option. I think the straegy has a major flaw.
I can see another option. I think the straegy has a major flaw.
@weatherman
Indeed there's a flaw, and I don't think I've seen it posted yet (though there is plenty of wood to lose this particular tree in!).
If the 480 move to another exchange, that exchange will gain 480 customers each accustomed to taking (at least) 25k pa of here.
If their move is a success that means they'll be taking circa £12m pa out of wherever they move to - and given nowhere else has the volumes available on BF, I can't see that new exchange providing those levels of takeout, or surviving the experience if it does.
Indeed there's a flaw, and I don't think I've seen it posted yet (though there is plenty of wood to lose this particular tree in!).
If the 480 move to another exchange, that exchange will gain 480 customers each accustomed to taking (at least) 25k pa of here.
If their move is a success that means they'll be taking circa £12m pa out of wherever they move to - and given nowhere else has the volumes available on BF, I can't see that new exchange providing those levels of takeout, or surviving the experience if it does.
longbridge, your first point about not having the volumes available on bf is a valid one. I think anyone taking this route will have to be content with a massive pay cut.
The second one seems ridiculous to me though. If these winners were able to make the same amount with another exchange, that exchange would be delighted, as it would mean explosive growth in liquidity (as without this liquidity it would not be possible to make those amounts in the first place). It would not only 'survive' the experience, it would be in an extremely strong position compared to where it is now.
They would also be very unlikely to be worried about these winners taking a large share of the pie versus the exchange, as they would have seen first hand what happens when costs are increased to extremely high levels.
All hypothetical of course, I don't think all that much will change. I'm just saying that given that these players are able to make the same as on Betfair (extremely unlikely), the rival exchange will benefit enormously under almost all conceivable circumstances rather than worrying about survival.
I do think that eventualy a real competitor will rise to challenge Betfair though. The more Betfair move away from the exchange model, the more the likelihood of another pure exchange becoming successful moves toward an inevitability.
Perhaps Betfair will decide they can make more as a traditional bookie than as an exchange, and get rid of all winner eventually, seeding the markets themselves. The only difference between Betfair and a traditional bookie will be that you can both back and lay. The margins will obviously be huge for Betfair, and the era of close to zero overround will be over, as Betfair can't possibly price up as well as the market in its entirety.
The second one seems ridiculous to me though. If these winners were able to make the same amount with another exchange, that exchange would be delighted, as it would mean explosive growth in liquidity (as without this liquidity it would not be possible to make those amounts in the first place). It would not only 'survive' the experience, it would be in an extremely strong position compared to where it is now.
They would also be very unlikely to be worried about these winners taking a large share of the pie versus the exchange, as they would have seen first hand what happens when costs are increased to extremely high levels.
All hypothetical of course, I don't think all that much will change. I'm just saying that given that these players are able to make the same as on Betfair (extremely unlikely), the rival exchange will benefit enormously under almost all conceivable circumstances rather than worrying about survival.
I do think that eventualy a real competitor will rise to challenge Betfair though. The more Betfair move away from the exchange model, the more the likelihood of another pure exchange becoming successful moves toward an inevitability.
Perhaps Betfair will decide they can make more as a traditional bookie than as an exchange, and get rid of all winner eventually, seeding the markets themselves. The only difference between Betfair and a traditional bookie will be that you can both back and lay. The margins will obviously be huge for Betfair, and the era of close to zero overround will be over, as Betfair can't possibly price up as well as the market in its entirety.
For a 40%er the 25k/annum drops to 15k elsewhere,just 10k for a 60% payer.Still very hard to achieve,the good times are long gone.
The Rixy post perhaps clearly lllustrates that the hike in the PC is not going to solve anything.
He's not arguing about the need for everybody to pay a reasonable level of charges to GP, 20% seems to be commonly accepted now as being reasonable ( note it took the the introductoion of the PC for even that basic acceptance to come about).
He is saying that the recent " super tax " increase is unjustifiable and will simply result in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It's not going to stop the IT specialists who don't even gamble, as defined by traditional terms.
They will just earn less, but their time/reward ratio is so attractive that it probably matters nothing to them in reality.
They will probably get up off their fat, lazy butts and start to implement their IT driven strategies on the competitive exchange to try, if nothig else, to make up the expected shortfall in their earnings on BF. But they won't go away from BF and leave the exchange fairer and more evenly balanced for other punters.
As somebody else said, those days are probably well past and gone.
The question still remains as to how BF can stop the smart IT driven customers from driving the exchange to oblivion by bleeding the betting pool both too fast and too consistently.
He's not arguing about the need for everybody to pay a reasonable level of charges to GP, 20% seems to be commonly accepted now as being reasonable ( note it took the the introductoion of the PC for even that basic acceptance to come about).
He is saying that the recent " super tax " increase is unjustifiable and will simply result in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It's not going to stop the IT specialists who don't even gamble, as defined by traditional terms.
They will just earn less, but their time/reward ratio is so attractive that it probably matters nothing to them in reality.
They will probably get up off their fat, lazy butts and start to implement their IT driven strategies on the competitive exchange to try, if nothig else, to make up the expected shortfall in their earnings on BF. But they won't go away from BF and leave the exchange fairer and more evenly balanced for other punters.
As somebody else said, those days are probably well past and gone.
The question still remains as to how BF can stop the smart IT driven customers from driving the exchange to oblivion by bleeding the betting pool both too fast and too consistently.
Btw I just threw in the fat, lazy butts bit to try to stir some of them up to reply on here.
They're probably all lean, fit and buff.
They're probably all lean, fit and buff.
I'd add a couple of points
1. BF only provides for its overall business and not the exchange. I know something about the costs associated with BF type internet businesses and I would be surprised if the operating margin (moreorless the same as EBITDA) on the exchange is significantly less than 80%.
That is, the exchange is massively profitable and everything else loses money.
2. People assume all bets on the exchange are retail. When in fact there is a high volume of wholesale bets (bookies laying off) in some markets (most of the ones I operate in). Much of the money made by big winners comes from taking these wholesale bets. Thats certainly the case with me
These wholesale bets will absolutely follow the liquidity.
1. BF only provides for its overall business and not the exchange. I know something about the costs associated with BF type internet businesses and I would be surprised if the operating margin (moreorless the same as EBITDA) on the exchange is significantly less than 80%.
That is, the exchange is massively profitable and everything else loses money.
2. People assume all bets on the exchange are retail. When in fact there is a high volume of wholesale bets (bookies laying off) in some markets (most of the ones I operate in). Much of the money made by big winners comes from taking these wholesale bets. Thats certainly the case with me
These wholesale bets will absolutely follow the liquidity.
fafh: The question still remains as to how BF can stop the smart IT driven customers from driving the exchange to oblivion by bleeding the betting pool both too fast and too consistently.
---------------
all very emotive and well and good, but as has been said several times - where is a single piece of evidence that this is/was happening?
---------------
all very emotive and well and good, but as has been said several times - where is a single piece of evidence that this is/was happening?
Are the consistent winners on the Poker site liable to the premium charge to offset the 'cost to Betfair' of obtaining the regular losers at Poker? I don't think so. Why is it only consistent winners on the Sports betting site that Betfair thinks need to pay more for the service?
viv, if it's not happening why are betfair so keen to risk all by taking a large slice of the action?
Because the suits **** now controlling things don't understand what they're doing??? Why do people think that businessmen can't make bad decisions that risk destroying their product?
**** = 'who are' (BF thought I was talking about prostitutes there..)
I totally agree LB but they don't have to be intelligent to see that there's considerable amounts at stake here. Of course it has nothing to do with stopping "the smart IT driven customers from driving the exchange to oblivion by bleeding the betting pool both too fast and too consistently". Quite the contrary, that's to continue unabated.
How catfloppo? Even if many Ferengi leave the remainder will just take up the slack.
Would a hike in the data request charges have been the solution?
Even I may get caught with this one and I'm the most cunning, evil, parasitic, copycat trading, shell and pea merchant on here.
[;)]
[;)]
In what way catfloppo? All that will change is that betfair will become the majority shareholder in "bleeding the betting pool both too fast and too consistently".
Point taken, Feck, you're right. Although some may choose to run more marginal, even loss-making, strategies to reduce the impact of pc which would put more back into the pool.
Even that positive is somewhat negated catfloppo because of the 5,10, 10+ bands. As I've commented on the Life means Life thread, I've no longer any incentive to supply liquidity to keep my commission down.
Must have missed that one. So once you're on 60% you're stuck there even if you totally change your strategy?
How strange. I must admit I don't really see the need for different bands anyway.
You can move up and down the bands. You're not stuck there for life
Wow,just been reading all this
after time away .
480 sounds a high figure, didn't realise so many were doing so well for so long.
All i can say is this seems in some way like a retrospective charge for players who weren't paying a premium type charge from 2000 onwards , i guess the thinking is all guys who were lucky enough to make 200k plus leading up to 2008 without having to cough up the premium charge 'had it good' and now if you continue you will be making up for it in a concentrated payment should you continue.
There seems the 'bonus' that more recent winning customers who have always paid P/C can continue for a little longer before many may fall into the net,once it hits 60% then there is little incentive to continue that's for sure.
No doubt this figure will go well past the 1,000 mark.
Not sure of the alternatives right now for those hit ,I am guessing BF looked at how the original PC impacted the markets and have taken this a step further, no doubt in a couple of years we may all be affected further with a new charge.
after time away .
480 sounds a high figure, didn't realise so many were doing so well for so long.
All i can say is this seems in some way like a retrospective charge for players who weren't paying a premium type charge from 2000 onwards , i guess the thinking is all guys who were lucky enough to make 200k plus leading up to 2008 without having to cough up the premium charge 'had it good' and now if you continue you will be making up for it in a concentrated payment should you continue.
There seems the 'bonus' that more recent winning customers who have always paid P/C can continue for a little longer before many may fall into the net,once it hits 60% then there is little incentive to continue that's for sure.
No doubt this figure will go well past the 1,000 mark.
Not sure of the alternatives right now for those hit ,I am guessing BF looked at how the original PC impacted the markets and have taken this a step further, no doubt in a couple of years we may all be affected further with a new charge.
Even if you can move between bands my point was that it would take a long time for me to reach 10% comm'n generated and move to 50% so I'd be as well taking it easy and only betting horses I consider excellent value.
No Johnny, I'm on 40%. I mean it would be a long time before my comm'n gen would drop below 10% and put me on 50%.
i dont reconise myself in these posts..im affected by the 40pc charge but i refuseto pay it...i made my money 4-7 years ago wen it was a level playin field in-running..using only my own reflexes and judgement..then fast pictures startedfor some..on track boys ect and i cudnt compete so gave up in running..so im a layer generally sometimes backer..my own judgement..bet in photos n stewards to..tote bets to..but not any more..iv taken funds out of betty n only transfer wen thers a stewards,,im now doin my layin on purple andmy tote bets on the tote..betty lost out quite a lot of my commision already in 4days..thats my protest..i actually have left betty in essence after 9 years..im still survving..in fact iv saved money so far..cos im now not paying the 20per cent...no way i was goin to 40 per cent! i only made 10 grand lastyear..pitiful to increase my pc..last 3 years my profits much reduced..
Im thinking i might retire from gambling, maybe get out while i can
does anyone reckon there will be a big change from the 18th July onwards ?
less liquidity ? people moving to daq or straight bookies ?
less liquidity ? people moving to daq or straight bookies ?
I'd imagine people will bet in a different way depending on what they do already to reduce risk RS1, certainly wouldn't be much point putting yourself on the line all the time
im in the process of moving everything purple and just started yesterday. My initial impressions:
The unmatched volumes available on most markets are generally pretty good, but not much activity in terms of bets being matched. Having said that, ive generally been watching the womens tennis markets and copa america/under 17/womens world cup football where volumes are fairly unpredictable anyway.
I would imagine that most BF users have at some point in the last week had a look at BD to see what the alternative looks like.If they could create the impression of greater volumes and liquidity it would attract more users than a marketing campaign ever would. Why not introduce cross matching software like BFs whereby an unmatched back also appears on the lay side of the opposite market selection to create tighter markets. Dont know if they do seed their markets or use bots but this would be a good time to start.
The range of markets are fairly limited but so were BF's 4 or 5 years ago.
The unmatched volumes available on most markets are generally pretty good, but not much activity in terms of bets being matched. Having said that, ive generally been watching the womens tennis markets and copa america/under 17/womens world cup football where volumes are fairly unpredictable anyway.
I would imagine that most BF users have at some point in the last week had a look at BD to see what the alternative looks like.If they could create the impression of greater volumes and liquidity it would attract more users than a marketing campaign ever would. Why not introduce cross matching software like BFs whereby an unmatched back also appears on the lay side of the opposite market selection to create tighter markets. Dont know if they do seed their markets or use bots but this would be a good time to start.
The range of markets are fairly limited but so were BF's 4 or 5 years ago.
Why not introduce cross matching software like BFs whereby an unmatched back also appears on the lay side of the opposite market selection to create tighter markets
pretty sure that's already there
pretty sure that's already there
When BF introduced the PC I started putting up the same prices there as here, except a tick or two better value over there. I guess it'll now be a couple of ticks or three.
Since I started using purple I have managed to make a living just over there, so it can be done.
Since I started using purple I have managed to make a living just over there, so it can be done.
ijs how many of the 480 do you think can ring up ladbrokes and ask for a bet?
.....less than 10 of them imho
.....less than 10 of them imho
More like 450 of them Clydebank. None of them want a bet though.
More like 30 of them Clydebank - the rest will be traders so it's a non starter.
That's the "ultimate" bottom line.
Where else will you go.
Truth is you have to wait till the exchanges fill, then make your move.
More often than not, you don't get filled.
Such is life.
Where else will you go.
Truth is you have to wait till the exchanges fill, then make your move.
More often than not, you don't get filled.
Such is life.
agree - bf was there for those that wanted something different in the early days. we already pay (up to) 5% for the win yet during the month if we win too much they slog us with a huge fee. I made 7000$ for the 2 weeks of wimbledon last year and got the scariest email of my life - if u do this again we will cahrge you more!
Must be very depressing for Weetabix nobody even mentions them, its all Betquack.
Yes, I've been slightly surprised at that. Mind you, their name's even more abstract than Quack's. How many punters watching a television advert would remember their web address after a quick flash on the screen?
Quack spending some money on TV/Radio/Rags advertising might be nice. Their head of marketing must literally do nothing all day.
Come on Dermot dip ever so slightly into that 1 billion pot.
Come on Dermot dip ever so slightly into that 1 billion pot.
I emailed Weetabix last Saturday to enquire as to whether they had any plans to increase the variety of markets they offer. Haven't even had so much as a "we're currently looking at our options and will get back to you" email....
Indeed, if you go to the WeetaBiX site and use W B X inthepress to the left, they say:
We're doing everything we can to ensure that as many people as possible know about the advantages of betting with W B X. Why not take a look at what the media have been writing about us…
Selecting last 6 months, for example, gives:
No content found
Clearly it has not been worth bothering to get any press coverage of late. It is hard to see any competition with apathy like that.
We're doing everything we can to ensure that as many people as possible know about the advantages of betting with W B X. Why not take a look at what the media have been writing about us…
Selecting last 6 months, for example, gives:
No content found
Clearly it has not been worth bothering to get any press coverage of late. It is hard to see any competition with apathy like that.
Weetabix and the Duck need to look at the graphica nad lay out of the site ,in particular the correct score markets.
It puts me off straight away . Betfair has the right idea in that respect ,much easier on the eye .
It puts me off straight away . Betfair has the right idea in that respect ,much easier on the eye .
i'm surprised these sites haven't 'borrowed' more ideas from here
Correct scores are more logical on the daq tbf, always wondered why betfair don't copy them!
also, The Duck also need a more vibrant forum ,it's not helping matters having to sign in to read the damn thing [smiley:crazy]
If I'm a punter wanting to bet a team to win lose or draw by a certain score, then on the duck they're arranged that way.
Over here you have 1-0 to one team next to 1-1 draw and then 2-1 to the other team. Mind boggling really.
Over here you have 1-0 to one team next to 1-1 draw and then 2-1 to the other team. Mind boggling really.
I might be wrong, but I should imagine a typical punter thinks along the lines of "I think we'll win 2-1 tonight, possibly 3-1"
Would make sense if those choices are near each other.
I understand why the betfair layout is how it is, but it's not laid out like any other bookie as far as I'm aware.
Would make sense if those choices are near each other.
I understand why the betfair layout is how it is, but it's not laid out like any other bookie as far as I'm aware.
If was startng with a fresh account now I could make the 250 markets threshold last about 10 years with only a very small, if any drop in my potential profit.
Hmmm, i don't like the way they list the away team and their potential score in a home winning format
e.g the away team here listed as
Standard Liege 3-2 alongside the home team
Anderlecht 3-2
Looks like it's aimed at someone who's been on the juice
e.g the away team here listed as
Standard Liege 3-2 alongside the home team
Anderlecht 3-2
Looks like it's aimed at someone who's been on the juice
FWIW I'm not sure I like it either but that's because I stare at Betfair a lot more than anywhere else.
I think the purple system actually makes more sense, although I see what you're saying now too.
Interesting how we can't even agree (we as a group, not you and I) on the best way to lay out some numbers.. no surprise that there are debates over bigger issues!
I think the purple system actually makes more sense, although I see what you're saying now too.
Interesting how we can't even agree (we as a group, not you and I) on the best way to lay out some numbers.. no surprise that there are debates over bigger issues!
Yes indeedy , guess i use this site a lot more so have become used to it too
Re Lori's last post.
Maybe also that's why BF mgt.ignores, or seems to ignore, any and everything said on the forums.
Maybe also that's why BF mgt.ignores, or seems to ignore, any and everything said on the forums.
Lori
Date Joined: 20 Apr 04
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When: 09 Jul 11 19:22
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Correct scores are more logical on the daq tbf, always wondered why betfair don't copy them!
It doesn't really matter. Betfair is the standard, and **** should adopt the standard. It's not good to use their layout when it is different from that of Betfair, even if it is better.
Just like everyone continues to use QWERTY keyboards instead of Dvorak even though the latter is clearly superior. If you were a large computer manufacturer, you'd be a fool to supply your units with a 'superior' dvorak keyboard instead of a QWERTY one.
Date Joined: 20 Apr 04
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When: 09 Jul 11 19:22
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Correct scores are more logical on the daq tbf, always wondered why betfair don't copy them!
It doesn't really matter. Betfair is the standard, and **** should adopt the standard. It's not good to use their layout when it is different from that of Betfair, even if it is better.
Just like everyone continues to use QWERTY keyboards instead of Dvorak even though the latter is clearly superior. If you were a large computer manufacturer, you'd be a fool to supply your units with a 'superior' dvorak keyboard instead of a QWERTY one.
Investor surely you're not suggessting they should become BF 2 ?
Point taken, although the Dvorak thing is likely a myth.
(I recently looked into switching!)
.
http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
(I recently looked into switching!)
.
http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
I agree with Investor ,have one set common layout .... stubbornness has its price
It is 8 years since I first had a bot on Betfair. I loved it like a child loves its favourite toy. Ok it took a long time before it made any money but it was great fun.
Now I am about to get one for another site, and I am looking forward to it like a child looking forward to Christmas.
Now I am about to get one for another site, and I am looking forward to it like a child looking forward to Christmas.
Btw getting better, there is no Santa Claus.
Haven't you just found that out on BF ?
Haven't you just found that out on BF ?
There is a god of betfair though, he can be very cruel, but usually he is kind. Sometimes when you are drunk he takes all your money away late at night, to punish you, but he usually gives it back within a week or two.
Do the easy math and you will know the pc customers cannot make it pay.
Lori
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It does make sense, I'm converted.
By the way, the world's fastest typist uses Dvorak. Enough to convince me! [;)]
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It does make sense, I'm converted.
By the way, the world's fastest typist uses Dvorak. Enough to convince me! [;)]
I'm wondering how hard it would be to switch back if I struggle. I don't really want to mess up 25 years of ingrained qwerty, but on the other hand, if it's faster, that would be nice.
According to the terms.betfair.com site, it says that if I was considered to have always paid a PC of 40%, my total charges would be ..."42.4% of your lifetime gross profits at this time. Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least £25331.89."
Does anyone know how what this £25k number represents? Is it gross or net profits or something else?
Does anyone know how what this £25k number represents? Is it gross or net profits or something else?
Mr Magoo, catfloppo reckons they calculate what you would have paid on a week by week basis so the cushion is dependent on the sequence of your results. e.g. if you won every week for 5 years and then lost every week for 5 years you'd have a massive cushion.
It is a shame that they don't publish these week-by-week numbers anywhere, I've got no real idea how much I'm going to end up paying when the changes come in.
I'm on 33.9% total charges right now, a simple view would be that I'm going to hit for another 6.1%. However, it's that sequence of results factor that could hurt. Paying PC on the winning weeks and no comeback on the losing weeks means that it will likely be much more than a 6% cost.
I'm far behind on the PC discussion anyway, since I've been away for a while. Will have to try and phone BF and reach a clued-up person there to explain the fine details.
I'm on 33.9% total charges right now, a simple view would be that I'm going to hit for another 6.1%. However, it's that sequence of results factor that could hurt. Paying PC on the winning weeks and no comeback on the losing weeks means that it will likely be much more than a 6% cost.
I'm far behind on the PC discussion anyway, since I've been away for a while. Will have to try and phone BF and reach a clued-up person there to explain the fine details.
I think betfair must believe their own forum. To assume that once someone's in front they're always gong to be in front is ridiculous. Some form of rebate is necessary. I've already suggested the following but have yet to hear from them.
After each market they update your lifetime profit, commission generated and deduct / rebate an amount such that your total pc paid is up to date. In order to combat evasion (e.g. losing all your profits to a non-pc account to get a large rebate) they could make the maximum rebate per market equal to the average commission paid per market over the lifetime of your account. That would mean if you'd paid 15K in pc's and your average commission paid per market was £5 you'd have to lose in 3,000 markets to get that 15K back. That would give betfair more than enough time to close the account if they think someone's at it.
When you think about it, had they done this in the first place they might have escaped a lot of the flak the pc brought on them. Having a lump deducted on a Wednesday probably magnified the bad feeling about the charge several times over. The fact betfair never even considered this effect shows how out of touch their ex-city boys are with the realities of dealing with ordinary punters.
After each market they update your lifetime profit, commission generated and deduct / rebate an amount such that your total pc paid is up to date. In order to combat evasion (e.g. losing all your profits to a non-pc account to get a large rebate) they could make the maximum rebate per market equal to the average commission paid per market over the lifetime of your account. That would mean if you'd paid 15K in pc's and your average commission paid per market was £5 you'd have to lose in 3,000 markets to get that 15K back. That would give betfair more than enough time to close the account if they think someone's at it.
When you think about it, had they done this in the first place they might have escaped a lot of the flak the pc brought on them. Having a lump deducted on a Wednesday probably magnified the bad feeling about the charge several times over. The fact betfair never even considered this effect shows how out of touch their ex-city boys are with the realities of dealing with ordinary punters.
I'm guessing that this 42.4% figure that they quote for me is the effect of the 40% charge combined with the no rebates, i.e. 40% on winnings together with no refunds for the losing weeks, means overall I will pay 42.4%
What it means is they're assuming you've paid 42.4% so far, not that you will pay 42.4%.
Following last weeks activity I'm dead on 40% (portal previously showing 40.4%)
Mr Magoo, it means that you won't pay any to begin with, it will kick in when (or if) your lifetime rate falls below 40%. The 25k is the amount you can win without incurring pc assuming a perfect run - the likelihood is you will win much more before you hit 40%.
Yes, I get the idea of it being the 'breathing room' before I would start paying the new PC (PC version 3.0 according to Betfair!) I was unsure where exactly the 42.4% bit came from, and whether the £25k is gross or net profit. (Turns out it is gross profit)
Astonishing really that even after two years we don't have any screen on BF which shows us on a market by market or day by day basis where we are with respect to paying (or buffer zone) on the current PC, never mind once the new set of charges kick in 
Astonishing really that even after two years we don't have any screen on BF which shows us on a market by market or day by day basis where we are with respect to paying (or buffer zone) on the current PC, never mind once the new set of charges kick in
PC calculations are completely separate from the main site's profit, commision, etc calculations.
At first I thought this was because the pc was rushed and didn't have time to put it into the main site.
I now realize its because bf think the pc is legally dodgy and they may have to drop it at short notice should they lose a court case.
BTW, IMO as a professional software developer the Purple place's interface is far superior to bf's.
PC calculations are completely separate from the main site's profit, commision, etc calculations.
At first I thought this was because the pc was rushed and didn't have time to put it into the main site.
I now realize its because bf think the pc is legally dodgy and they may have to drop it at short notice should they lose a court case.
BTW, IMO as a professional software developer the Purple place's interface is far superior to bf's.
Doesn't make it right though pxb that we users have to keep our own spreadsheet if we want to be on top of a running total.
Mind you, we can't even see basic info such as bets matched or P&L across our main wallet and Aussie wallet at the same time on the same screen so I guess should hardly be surprised they never managed to give us a live PC estimator
Mind you, we can't even see basic info such as bets matched or P&L across our main wallet and Aussie wallet at the same time on the same screen so I guess should hardly be surprised they never managed to give us a live PC estimator
Well time for me to move on now. I used to market make in illiquid markets, but as of now with a 60% rate of PC if I had a really good year I might make minumum wage. I think 20% was an equitable arrangement for PC, although I would obviously of preferred to be without it. 60% PC without rebates for losing weeks may as well be 95% as far as I am concerned.
I'm kind of sad to be moving on, but at the same time excited by moving on to something new, I know not what.
Thanks for the good time betfair, the dream of winning money here for many is now gone.
I'm kind of sad to be moving on, but at the same time excited by moving on to something new, I know not what.
Thanks for the good time betfair, the dream of winning money here for many is now gone.
TheVis, the neglect of the exchange software (longstanding problems are not being fixed) is rather obvious to someone like me.
Pretty much all of their development budget will be going into one failed project after another (poker, arcade, virtual horse racing etc) in a desperate bid to find growth somewhere.
Now they have gone one step further and are grafting a bookmaking site on to the exchange and just creating a confusing mess.
BF won't be the first company to have scroowed the pooch through neglect of their core succeful product.
Pretty much all of their development budget will be going into one failed project after another (poker, arcade, virtual horse racing etc) in a desperate bid to find growth somewhere.
Now they have gone one step further and are grafting a bookmaking site on to the exchange and just creating a confusing mess.
BF won't be the first company to have scroowed the pooch through neglect of their core succeful product.
At first I thought this was because the pc was rushed and didn't have time to put it into the main site.
I now realize its because bf think the pc is legally dodgy and they may have to drop it at short notice should they lose a court case.
Seems more likely that they don't want non-payers to worry about the likelihood of becoming payers.
That someone like me who will inevitably fulfil the criteria for the 60% pc at some time in the future can't get easy access to my figures at the terms page because I don't yet have to pay is ludicrous. As someone who knows the score (much more so than the bloke who replied to my first email to the help desk about it) and is regularly paying the 20% pc I feel that I should be kept much better informed.
I now realize its because bf think the pc is legally dodgy and they may have to drop it at short notice should they lose a court case.
Seems more likely that they don't want non-payers to worry about the likelihood of becoming payers.
That someone like me who will inevitably fulfil the criteria for the 60% pc at some time in the future can't get easy access to my figures at the terms page because I don't yet have to pay is ludicrous. As someone who knows the score (much more so than the bloke who replied to my first email to the help desk about it) and is regularly paying the 20% pc I feel that I should be kept much better informed.
TheVis 13 Jul 11 18:19
Astonishing really that even after two years we don't have any screen on BF which shows us on a market by market or day by day basis where we are with respect to paying (or buffer zone) on the current PC, never mind once the new set of charges kick in Cry
i built a small application that allows me to see this, i.e. i know exactly how much i'm due to pay (or not) on any selected time period. (goes through the free API)
i took about a day and a half (whilst doing other stuff) to build; that's the sort of development effort betfair aren't prepared to devote to their PC payers
happy to distribute it later on if anyone wants it, but i'll have to update it for the new rates.
Astonishing really that even after two years we don't have any screen on BF which shows us on a market by market or day by day basis where we are with respect to paying (or buffer zone) on the current PC, never mind once the new set of charges kick in Cry
i built a small application that allows me to see this, i.e. i know exactly how much i'm due to pay (or not) on any selected time period. (goes through the free API)
i took about a day and a half (whilst doing other stuff) to build; that's the sort of development effort betfair aren't prepared to devote to their PC payers
happy to distribute it later on if anyone wants it, but i'll have to update it for the new rates.
betfair can't have any more ads saying that a punter would get better value betting horse A then at other bookmakers
Of course they can, this doesn't affect the average punter.
charlatan,
Can you access the other premium charge page?
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
This gives the % charges figures and always used to be accessible by non-PC payers (I doubt that it has been updated to the new rates though)
Can you access the other premium charge page?
https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html
This gives the % charges figures and always used to be accessible by non-PC payers (I doubt that it has been updated to the new rates though)
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