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I decide to be full time trader.
I will give a pure example. My 1st year of trading on Football markets will start with the new football season which will start on August-September. Because I've started trading Betfair seriously on March 2011 - the End of the next season - and I started to build up a bank back then - The bank was finished this month so I suppose that my real start would be August-September. My plan is to make 10-15k in EUR currency on this very season which is not something huge or etc.... I just make my own calculations according to what I've made when the season wasn't over with the smaller bank and according to what I get in the summer from summer games. I can assure you that this is realistic goal. I always have a targets - no matter will I done it or not. I must have because I am working better that way. I want them to be realistic - not only to chase demons or something.
So my point is - in my 1st year of serious trading I will earn 10-15k (probably - there is possibility not to make it ofc - lets assume I will) from trading. I am in the mean time developing few football betting systems on the Betfair markets. I am still testing them as I need at least 1000 games - at least - in order to be accurate. So if the systems are ok and I become even more efficient in future which is not impossible I can reach that 25k per year. In the second year I manage to make 25k, but I also start to trade Horse racing and finnaly become good at it too. On the 3rd year I am making 40k from football and horce racing. So lets assume I didn't find out about betfair this year, but 10 years ago. In 10 years I would really reach this 250k. And I would be among affected.
But 15-25-30k per Year isn't that much don't you think? For That Years I have spended that money to live the life right? And now Betfair tell's me you should pay the charge... Its sad but its true and believe me its not impossible at all. A lot of people would be affected. And no - not all of them would be rich people....
I will give a pure example. My 1st year of trading on Football markets will start with the new football season which will start on August-September. Because I've started trading Betfair seriously on March 2011 - the End of the next season - and I started to build up a bank back then - The bank was finished this month so I suppose that my real start would be August-September. My plan is to make 10-15k in EUR currency on this very season which is not something huge or etc.... I just make my own calculations according to what I've made when the season wasn't over with the smaller bank and according to what I get in the summer from summer games. I can assure you that this is realistic goal. I always have a targets - no matter will I done it or not. I must have because I am working better that way. I want them to be realistic - not only to chase demons or something.
So my point is - in my 1st year of serious trading I will earn 10-15k (probably - there is possibility not to make it ofc - lets assume I will) from trading. I am in the mean time developing few football betting systems on the Betfair markets. I am still testing them as I need at least 1000 games - at least - in order to be accurate. So if the systems are ok and I become even more efficient in future which is not impossible I can reach that 25k per year. In the second year I manage to make 25k, but I also start to trade Horse racing and finnaly become good at it too. On the 3rd year I am making 40k from football and horce racing. So lets assume I didn't find out about betfair this year, but 10 years ago. In 10 years I would really reach this 250k. And I would be among affected.
But 15-25-30k per Year isn't that much don't you think? For That Years I have spended that money to live the life right? And now Betfair tell's me you should pay the charge... Its sad but its true and believe me its not impossible at all. A lot of people would be affected. And no - not all of them would be rich people....
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Betfair and their own insanity will bring the company to destruction...Because this is not greed. A sane greed man wouldn't try to reach short term goals just to keep the share-price. Because it will doom in long-term as they give the competition chance for a strike. And belive me they will strike! This is insanity
johnny,
I have read and re-read your post and digested it fully.
After very careful consideration, my advice to you would be to, change your name to johnny-euro.
Kind Regards,
slarti
fix these smilies ffs!
I have read and re-read your post and digested it fully.
After very careful consideration, my advice to you would be to, change your name to johnny-euro.
Kind Regards,
slarti
fix these smilies ffs!
Johnny, the exchange was massively different 10 years ago and will be in 10 years time. Retrospective speculation is particularly pointless imo.
@Catfloppo maybe you are right. But I am telling you want may happen to a regular punter... They say this will affect only the rich ? LOL this is not true! I think there is a lot of people getting 25k per year normal sallary...
I don't recall them saying it was aimed at the rich. It's aimed at those who pay only a low proportion of their profit back in commission.
So 20% of what you get is small proportion for you ? And they should pay 60% of their profit? Are you working for Betfair ?
Well there will always be some people that are Company men. I am sure this guy is something like that. A normal guy would be frustrated if he has to pay 60 out of 100 to someone who doesn't even make an effort and not risking anything to get this money...
Aren't they giving you the platform to make the 100 in the first place.
That's not worth anything ?
Anyway that is not what this is really all about.
It's really about stopping the "big" winners bleed the system dry.
The PC is just a very clumsy, and probably badly thought out, way of attempting to do this.
That's not worth anything ?
Anyway that is not what this is really all about.
It's really about stopping the "big" winners bleed the system dry.
The PC is just a very clumsy, and probably badly thought out, way of attempting to do this.
I don't work for betfair, I don't pay pc and I'm not likely to either. I will be a happy man indeed if I get to pay some at some point in the future. In principle it makes a good deal of sense but as the frogmeister has said the implementation could be tidier.
Fine As Frog Hair -
How exactly is using a system in the exact way it's intended to be used 'bleeding it dry'? Betfair aren't a bookmaker; the express point of their existence is that you can trade positions, surely?
How exactly is using a system in the exact way it's intended to be used 'bleeding it dry'? Betfair aren't a bookmaker; the express point of their existence is that you can trade positions, surely?
Record profits announced, so no bleeding dry that I can see.
So you never pay a Betfair PC - this means you are a bad trader/bettor and others taking your money(in your case I mean. its true that you can be succesful and not qualy for a PC which is not your case from I can see) and you think its Fair for them to take the ones that are succesfull their money? But its not equivallent - Betfair is not taking extra from you - why should them taking extra from the ones capable of making money?!?! This is not fair. And ok - PC1, its making any sense even if I can barely find it? But do you have a small idea what 60% of your wins means? Do you know mathmatics - can you count what that's mean ?! Have you ever tried imagine you are on this guys place? With that kind of thinking my friend you would never be succesful! Or you are working for Betfair or you are too narrow minded.
We've made a facebook group for anyone who thinks that something isnt right.
You can join. Even the Betfair guy can join. Just to spy I don't care...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Betfair-Premium-Charge-Fiasco/232172673473703
You can join. Even the Betfair guy can join. Just to spy I don't care...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Betfair-Premium-Charge-Fiasco/232172673473703
I'm not a bad trader Johnny, I am very successful. Don't confuse success with strike rate, they are two different things. I am pleased to pay commission back to betfair and I am pleased that my activity benefits other users because this is the best way to ensure that what I am doing is sustainable.
Betfair are a business and anyone who makes consistent profit from them are business partners, not customers. Anyone who thought they could pay 5% of their gross forever just wasn't thinking about this situation enough. Over two years ago now this was made evident and since that time us 'betfair plants' have repeatedly pointed out, amidst all the bitter whinging, that 20% was still very low compared to what other users were/are paying. Turns out we were right.
Betfair are a business and anyone who makes consistent profit from them are business partners, not customers. Anyone who thought they could pay 5% of their gross forever just wasn't thinking about this situation enough. Over two years ago now this was made evident and since that time us 'betfair plants' have repeatedly pointed out, amidst all the bitter whinging, that 20% was still very low compared to what other users were/are paying. Turns out we were right.
If only I could be as quietly diplomatic as you Cat.
You get your points across so much better than I do.
You're even most probably a far better punter than I am too.
Life is so unfair.
You get your points across so much better than I do.
You're even most probably a far better punter than I am too.
Life is so unfair.
catfloppo
Date Joined: 16 Nov 06
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When: 02 Jul 11 08:55
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I'm not a bad trader Johnny, I am very successful. Don't confuse success with strike rate, they are two different things. I am pleased to pay commission back to betfair and I am pleased that my activity benefits other users because this is the best way to ensure that what I am doing is sustainable.
Betfair are a business and anyone who makes consistent profit from them are business partners, not customers. Anyone who thought they could pay 5% of their gross forever just wasn't thinking about this situation enough. Over two years ago now this was made evident and since that time us 'betfair plants' have repeatedly pointed out, amidst all the bitter whinging, that 20% was still very low compared to what other users were/are paying. Turns out we were right.
Obviously those paying the lowest % of GP charges will be paying a % that is very low compared to what others are paying, not really a surprise is it!
Can I ask what % of GP you pay in commission? Whatever it is, it is very low compared to what the vast majority of Betfair's customers are paying. That's no justification to take 100% of your GP though is it. Even then you would still be paying less than most!!
Date Joined: 16 Nov 06
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When: 02 Jul 11 08:55
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Date Joined: 16 Nov 06
| Topic/replies: 842 | Blogger: catfloppo's blog
I'm not a bad trader Johnny, I am very successful. Don't confuse success with strike rate, they are two different things. I am pleased to pay commission back to betfair and I am pleased that my activity benefits other users because this is the best way to ensure that what I am doing is sustainable.
Betfair are a business and anyone who makes consistent profit from them are business partners, not customers. Anyone who thought they could pay 5% of their gross forever just wasn't thinking about this situation enough. Over two years ago now this was made evident and since that time us 'betfair plants' have repeatedly pointed out, amidst all the bitter whinging, that 20% was still very low compared to what other users were/are paying. Turns out we were right.
Obviously those paying the lowest % of GP charges will be paying a % that is very low compared to what others are paying, not really a surprise is it!
Can I ask what % of GP you pay in commission? Whatever it is, it is very low compared to what the vast majority of Betfair's customers are paying. That's no justification to take 100% of your GP though is it. Even then you would still be paying less than most!!
33.9%. Clearly if betfair take 100% of my profit I won't play any more. I'l only continue to play if it's worth my while and presumably betfair only want to keep me playing if it is worth theirs. Hopefully the new value will keep us both happy for a while.
Yes, terrific new advert for betfair, isn't it?
"Back an even money winner and we could pay you out at 2/5 if you are good at gambling"
"Back an even money winner and we could pay you out at 2/5 if you are good at gambling"
No, it is perfectly possible in certain cases. (They could put the proviso in that they could pay you out at 4/5 until you reach 250k in the small print 
)
)
That's the point, it can work like that for some people. So surely only fair to warn prospective customers, no?
catfloppo if you apply pro rata premium charges to each of your markets it does work out pretty close to that. on a perfect week it would be worse than that because 20% premium charge actually results in 22.5% charges because of implied generated commission calculations.
The advert would not be misleading
The advert would not be misleading
It would be just like a car manufacturer saying "buy one of our cars and you could have a crash"
I take it neither of you work in advertising?
[:p]
I take it neither of you work in advertising?
[:p]
My tongue was in cheek, but your comment of "It doesn't work like that turtles and you know it" looked to me as if it you were taking it seriously 
I beleive that it's impossible for anyone to earn a decent living on Betfair like maybe some did.
I am sure most of you like myself have a job.The difference to betfair now is in the beginning people
thought with hard work they could make a few hundred grand (which they could).
Now however there will be many that don't even start on this path ,as they will realise if they
where of the standard to make this amount, then they would make much more on other forms of business or betting instead.
Where before the sky was tha limit.Now its not really worthwhile for all the effort.
It's a shame as many of us who where there in the beginning who built up flutter and Betfair have lost a bit of respect for them.
I still have 100% respect for the founders as they arent a part of Betfair anymore but I question this management now.
I am sure most of you like myself have a job.The difference to betfair now is in the beginning people
thought with hard work they could make a few hundred grand (which they could).
Now however there will be many that don't even start on this path ,as they will realise if they
where of the standard to make this amount, then they would make much more on other forms of business or betting instead.
Where before the sky was tha limit.Now its not really worthwhile for all the effort.
It's a shame as many of us who where there in the beginning who built up flutter and Betfair have lost a bit of respect for them.
I still have 100% respect for the founders as they arent a part of Betfair anymore but I question this management now.
Pmbets, i agree with most of what you've said tho i couldn't have 100% respect for the founders. They undoubtedly started off with good intentions as well as looking to make money but after a while the money took over. Things had already started going downhill before they moved on.
Catfloppo, I'm amazed at your attitude if you don't work for betfair. It appears to be "It doesn't affect me therefore I'm happy with it". betfair have got incredibly greedy and are penalising genuine punters who already give them considerable commission.
Catfloppo, I'm amazed at your attitude if you don't work for betfair. It appears to be "It doesn't affect me therefore I'm happy with it". betfair have got incredibly greedy and are penalising genuine punters who already give them considerable commission.
Agree asparagus with you there.Also this is the thin end of the wedge IMHO and Betfair will ask for money fro
other winners lower down the pack soon.
other winners lower down the pack soon.
I think you can still make a good living out of BF, if you're clever and industrious.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.
Pm bets, totally agree. This is not the end. Betfair will continue screwing winners by upping charges until a decent competitor comes along.
Fine as frog hair, no one expects a free lunch. I'm sure I already pay more commission than the vast majority. I take risks. No one pays me back the premium charge if i have a bad run. I think you're wrong about betfair's competitors. I know I'll make a living from competitors as long as my knowledge of form etc remains as good. I may end up making less but to be quite honest I'd rather make 60k a year and end up keeping 50 of it than 100k a year and end up keeping 60 of it, because I've got to look at the long term and not just what i make in the next year.
Fine as frog hair, no one expects a free lunch. I'm sure I already pay more commission than the vast majority. I take risks. No one pays me back the premium charge if i have a bad run. I think you're wrong about betfair's competitors. I know I'll make a living from competitors as long as my knowledge of form etc remains as good. I may end up making less but to be quite honest I'd rather make 60k a year and end up keeping 50 of it than 100k a year and end up keeping 60 of it, because I've got to look at the long term and not just what i make in the next year.
I have already confessed that I am happy with it from a selfish pov. However I can still sympathise with those affected and at the same time see the reasons behind it.
I think I'd want to dish out my sympathy on a case-by-case basis cf.
something tells me that if I had access to all relevant details about the 480's personal circumstances and betting strategies, the quality of mercy would become really quite finely strained.
something tells me that if I had access to all relevant details about the 480's personal circumstances and betting strategies, the quality of mercy would become really quite finely strained.
I am sympathetic to anyone adversely affected irrespective of their circumstances. I won't be sympathetic to anyone who is still complaining about it in six months time [:o]
FINE AS FROG HAIR
03 Jul 11 18:23 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,791 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
I think you can still make a good living out of BF, if you're clever and industrious.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.
Read that back again...slowly....and then ask yourself, did I really write that?
03 Jul 11 18:23 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,791 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
I think you can still make a good living out of BF, if you're clever and industrious.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.
Read that back again...slowly....and then ask yourself, did I really write that?
I've read it MS, and yes I can confirm I did in fact write that.
Want me to write it again ?
Want me to write it again ?
FINE AS FROG HAIR
03 Jul 11 18:23 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,804 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
I think you can still make a good living out of BF, if you're clever and industrious.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
[i]However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.[/i]
This is not true. Just say todays horse racing at the main purple betfair competitor. The odds are good, because liquidity is rising with astronomical speed! Soon a lot of people will move succesfuly their business and you company men can not stop it! I will do the same!
03 Jul 11 18:23 Joined: 12 Mar 07 | Topic/replies: 2,804 | Blogger: FINE AS FROG HAIR's blog
I think you can still make a good living out of BF, if you're clever and industrious.
Maybe not astronomical fortunes. But very, very few ever do that successfully in any field of endeavour.
[i]However you certainly can't even make any sort of a living out of any of BF's competitors.
Therein lies the rub.
As such, people's gambling ambitions may have to be scaled back a bit, at least to more normal, conventional reward/effort ratios.
There is no free lunch. Never has been. Never will be.[/i]
This is not true. Just say todays horse racing at the main purple betfair competitor. The odds are good, because liquidity is rising with astronomical speed! Soon a lot of people will move succesfuly their business and you company men can not stop it! I will do the same!
That's fair enough johnny, if you can do better elsewhere then do it.
Jonny
I don't do HR and so can't comment.
But I have always believed that the smart money will naturally gravitate to where the best deals are over time.
Nothing BF does or does not do will change that basic law of nature.
I don't do HR and so can't comment.
But I have always believed that the smart money will naturally gravitate to where the best deals are over time.
Nothing BF does or does not do will change that basic law of nature.
Day off for me tomorrow. I'll be doing another trial on purple for a few days starting Tuesday (alongside Betfair).
I did this during the world cup and ended up about +£8k on Betfair and +£550 on purple.
My purple betting was much lower risk though, as I was staked by someone with the agreement that I would refund 100% of any losses and split profits 50/50. That obviously limits opportunities massively as you need to limit risk to close to zero to make it worthwhile. I never went into negative territory, and scaled up a little by risking profits rather than the original stake capital.
This time round I'll be using my own cash to see if I can make any meaningful amounts.
I did this during the world cup and ended up about +£8k on Betfair and +£550 on purple.
My purple betting was much lower risk though, as I was staked by someone with the agreement that I would refund 100% of any losses and split profits 50/50. That obviously limits opportunities massively as you need to limit risk to close to zero to make it worthwhile. I never went into negative territory, and scaled up a little by risking profits rather than the original stake capital.
This time round I'll be using my own cash to see if I can make any meaningful amounts.
Football : Copa America (hence the day off tomorrow)
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