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29 Jun 11
06:13
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Date Joined:
10 Jan 02
With a simple change of interface betfair could rid themselves of the vast majority of "drainers" and the site would only require a fraction of the current infrastructure. The people most likely to jack it in as a result of these charges will be the manual players, particularly the ones who spend a large part of the day studying. Sadly that will just leave all the more for those whose working day consists of pushing a button.
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"We are developing an integrated Exchange and sportsbook product that will allow us to provide more in-play markets as well as giving customers guaranteed execution in less liquid markets. We believe this liquid Exchange and sportsbook combination will be unique to Betfair and will allow us to capture a greater share of wallet from existing customers as well as attracting new ones."
Is the nightmare scenario on the way? As well as traders paying over 60% of their winnings will betfair also be front running successful clients?
Is the nightmare scenario on the way? As well as traders paying over 60% of their winnings will betfair also be front running successful clients?
Front running with no delay on their bets would be quite amusing (in a perverse way).
The big winner on horseracing (currently banned from the forum) makes his millions from other people's efforts? Weight of money or whatever it is he does? But he seems to be the golden boy at Betfair, in fact, Id go as far as too say he has encouraged BF to bring in these new charges seeing as he is unaffected.
Where are you reading that from feck? Are they implying that they will seed their own markets now? Guaranteed execution can only happen via cross-matching derived from related markets or if betfair front the risk themselves.
Could you elaborate on the 'hiding the info' idea? At the very least, the best available price should be on display. I enjoy pricing up an event before I have looked at the market, but I want to know what everyone else thinks too. Is it just a case of hiding 'your' bets so the market doesn't run away from them or so you don't have to drip feed?
Could you elaborate on the 'hiding the info' idea? At the very least, the best available price should be on display. I enjoy pricing up an event before I have looked at the market, but I want to know what everyone else thinks too. Is it just a case of hiding 'your' bets so the market doesn't run away from them or so you don't have to drip feed?
baldloaf, canary posted that on the ".. welvcome the hike" thread. Will reply to your other question shortly.
baldloaf, it's another one of feck's crazed ideas, like his "all new yadda yadda generating premium sh!te". they're probably "looking into it" like they were the last one. ie looking into it every time they catch sight of their unemptied waste paper basket.
no chance whatsoever of it happening, which means in a year or so he'll get tired of banging on about it and start cut and pasting some other load of cobblers.
no chance whatsoever of it happening, which means in a year or so he'll get tired of banging on about it and start cut and pasting some other load of cobblers.
I welcome ideas to improve the exchange. However, it does appear that feck cannot get a bet on in the size he requires and at a particular time of day.
The queue information is valuable for so many reasons that I really don't need to point out. Sure, it means that those who don't have an opinion on the price can just undercut the market but the only people this affects are those that want to be matched at value prices. Fecks argument that at the very least, ONE person gets matched at a better price is flawed. This is at the expense of someone putting down money which could of been matched at a better price, had the middle-men came along. You see, less middle-men, less value on offer. Anything else just feeds the pros and results in the losers losing more quickly.
When I offer prices, middle-men are a pain. When I want to take a price quickly, I thank them for offering better prices than anyone else. Not an ideal compromise but hiding the queue is no good for anyone.
Are you going to be liable for the 40% now feck?
The queue information is valuable for so many reasons that I really don't need to point out. Sure, it means that those who don't have an opinion on the price can just undercut the market but the only people this affects are those that want to be matched at value prices. Fecks argument that at the very least, ONE person gets matched at a better price is flawed. This is at the expense of someone putting down money which could of been matched at a better price, had the middle-men came along. You see, less middle-men, less value on offer. Anything else just feeds the pros and results in the losers losing more quickly.
When I offer prices, middle-men are a pain. When I want to take a price quickly, I thank them for offering better prices than anyone else. Not an ideal compromise but hiding the queue is no good for anyone.
Are you going to be liable for the 40% now feck?
I might add feck, that this is the first time ever that betfair has addressed the issue of people taking money out the system for virtually no risk (courtsiders, inside info). However, its a bit like saying to all the innocents on deathrow that the real serial killers are going to be tortured before being given the chair to make up for the fact that they (the innocents) shouldn't be there in the first place.
At the end of the day, do you actually think that those affected are going to be paying 50-60%? I think that there are too many brown-envelope deals going on.
At the end of the day, do you actually think that those affected are going to be paying 50-60%? I think that there are too many brown-envelope deals going on.
will betfair also be front running successful clients?
I suspect they've been doing this for some time
I suspect they've been doing this for some time
Price Auctions
These take place every x minutes where x gradually decreases the nearer we get to the "off".
Backers/Layers put in their offers along with their min/max odds or select "Auction SP" (not guaranteed to be covered).
Any unmatched offers automatically carried forward to next auction unless cancelled.
Only information showing is the auction sp's from previous auctions or a projected sp (based on unmatched offers) on contestants where no bets were matched. Guide prices (e.g. based on rp forecast) shown for first auction.
Everyone is matched at the same price in the auction (obviously this price will meet backers/layers min/max odds criteria).
Bets are matched in such a way that small stakes are satisfied first. e.g. if there are 3 bets of 5, 10 & 100 and only 20 to be matched on the other side the 3 players in question would be matched for 5, 7.5 and 7.5 respectively.
the benefits would be as follows
no momentum traders
no spoofers
no £2 queue jumping bots
bots have no advantage over manual traders
no trap bets
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market
In busy markets it might be possible to base reduction factors on what's left as opposed to what's been taken out.
More stable odds. This is very important imo. I believe the swings on betfair odds put a lot of people off the site. The algorithm (which I've done some initial work on) wouldn't allow insiders to monopolise the market as it wouldn't allow them to undercut all and sundry on their cert losers. As an example suppose we're betting on a coin toss and a scvmbag knows it's heavily weighted in favour of heads. If there's 100K wanting to back Heads and 100K wanting to lay Heads (both at 2.0) then the scvmbag's 200K back of Heads @ 1.5 would result in him getting matched for just over £990 @ 2.0.
These take place every x minutes where x gradually decreases the nearer we get to the "off".
Backers/Layers put in their offers along with their min/max odds or select "Auction SP" (not guaranteed to be covered).
Any unmatched offers automatically carried forward to next auction unless cancelled.
Only information showing is the auction sp's from previous auctions or a projected sp (based on unmatched offers) on contestants where no bets were matched. Guide prices (e.g. based on rp forecast) shown for first auction.
Everyone is matched at the same price in the auction (obviously this price will meet backers/layers min/max odds criteria).
Bets are matched in such a way that small stakes are satisfied first. e.g. if there are 3 bets of 5, 10 & 100 and only 20 to be matched on the other side the 3 players in question would be matched for 5, 7.5 and 7.5 respectively.
the benefits would be as follows
no momentum traders
no spoofers
no £2 queue jumping bots
bots have no advantage over manual traders
no trap bets
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market
In busy markets it might be possible to base reduction factors on what's left as opposed to what's been taken out.
More stable odds. This is very important imo. I believe the swings on betfair odds put a lot of people off the site. The algorithm (which I've done some initial work on) wouldn't allow insiders to monopolise the market as it wouldn't allow them to undercut all and sundry on their cert losers. As an example suppose we're betting on a coin toss and a scvmbag knows it's heavily weighted in favour of heads. If there's 100K wanting to back Heads and 100K wanting to lay Heads (both at 2.0) then the scvmbag's 200K back of Heads @ 1.5 would result in him getting matched for just over £990 @ 2.0.
When I want to take a price quickly, I thank them for offering better prices than anyone else.
But you do realise baldloaf that the trader will just be a middleman and you'd have been better off matched with the people at the other end of his trade? The price auction allows that to happen.
PS Yes, 40%.
But you do realise baldloaf that the trader will just be a middleman and you'd have been better off matched with the people at the other end of his trade? The price auction allows that to happen.
PS Yes, 40%.
It's not traders alone they are after feck. Anyone with a reasonable profit margin of say 7% who place large one way bets is now considered to be taking too much money from the system and will be charged once they make the £250K
I might add feck, that this is the first time ever that betfair has addressed the issue of people taking money out the system for virtually no risk (courtsiders, inside info). However, its a bit like saying to all the innocents on deathrow that the real serial killers are going to be tortured before being given the chair to make up for the fact that they (the innocents) shouldn't be there in the first place.
I'm fed up saying that everything that's bad about this site is down to betfair toadying to copy cats and cheats.
At the end of the day, do you actually think that those affected are going to be paying 50-60%? I think that there are too many brown-envelope deals going on.
It's hard to see how they're going to stop big hitters coming back under new guises. I would imagine the charges will soon apply to all regardless of past money won.
I'm fed up saying that everything that's bad about this site is down to betfair toadying to copy cats and cheats.
At the end of the day, do you actually think that those affected are going to be paying 50-60%? I think that there are too many brown-envelope deals going on.
It's hard to see how they're going to stop big hitters coming back under new guises. I would imagine the charges will soon apply to all regardless of past money won.
...and the market would never know the coin was loaded.
It's not traders alone they are after feck. Anyone with a reasonable profit margin of say 7% who place large one way bets is now considered to be taking too much money from the system and will be charged once they make the £250K.
I'm aware of that pumpkin but they could've wiped out most of the people involved with a simple interface change or even a switch to a turnover based commission scheme.
I'm aware of that pumpkin but they could've wiped out most of the people involved with a simple interface change or even a switch to a turnover based commission scheme.
Price auction a terrible idea, please do not mention it again thanks.
...and the market would never know the coin was loaded.
The exchange would though and how many would risk a loaded coin in future knowing they'd be found out for the sake of £990?
The exchange would though and how many would risk a loaded coin in future knowing they'd be found out for the sake of £990?
Price auction a terrible idea, please do not mention it again thanks.
Good point well made.
Good point well made.
It says in the racing post they are trying to protect punters. I don't see how letting hooverers continue, and then taking some of their profits is protecting anyone.
Why would the exchange care? Where do you draw the line between edge and unfair advantage? 5%=edge 20%=unfair ?
So guide prices will always be displayed to help those that need it right? Tell me how it helps people who want to have a large bet on and, under the old interface, would have ploughed through several prices at the expense of a lower average price? Is he treated like the scumbag above?
What about traders who want to back a horse since they know its price will soon come steaming in once people realise that it is overpriced to begin with?
I like the idea of people not being able to jump in front but really, thats my personal problem and not one of the exchange.
With regards to spoofers and the likes, I want to know whats going on in the market. If people are trying to spoof or spook the market, I want to know that they are doing this. It means price movements, extra activity.
The underhand tactics employed by those annoying manipulators can be reduced vastly by getting rid of bots.
What about traders who want to back a horse since they know its price will soon come steaming in once people realise that it is overpriced to begin with?
I like the idea of people not being able to jump in front but really, thats my personal problem and not one of the exchange.
With regards to spoofers and the likes, I want to know whats going on in the market. If people are trying to spoof or spook the market, I want to know that they are doing this. It means price movements, extra activity.
The underhand tactics employed by those annoying manipulators can be reduced vastly by getting rid of bots.
It's hard to see how they're going to stop big hitters coming back under new guises
I know a man who has three accounts Feck. (not me) He uses AOL and his API is different every time he signs on.
I don't know where the line should be, but it has been drawn.
I wonder what it will rise to next time it goes up?
But you do realise baldloaf that the trader will just be a middleman and you'd have been better off matched with the people at the other end of his trade? The price auction allows that to happen.
You mean the other end of his trade that he 'hopes' will get matched either immediately after, or at some point in the future? Good luck to him. He offered me better prices than anyone else and took on the risk for me. The only way that I could get hold of the other end of his trade would be if I had the luxury of time to wait for that better opportunity.
The underlying point is that although the middleman is selling my bet for a profit, he is providing me a service, whether or not I resent the fact that I could have got slightly more had I waited. Getting rid of unwanted liabilities is much more important than eeking out that slightly better price. It is ok to change your mind right? Or does that just make me a dirty ferengi?
You mean the other end of his trade that he 'hopes' will get matched either immediately after, or at some point in the future? Good luck to him. He offered me better prices than anyone else and took on the risk for me. The only way that I could get hold of the other end of his trade would be if I had the luxury of time to wait for that better opportunity.
The underlying point is that although the middleman is selling my bet for a profit, he is providing me a service, whether or not I resent the fact that I could have got slightly more had I waited. Getting rid of unwanted liabilities is much more important than eeking out that slightly better price. It is ok to change your mind right? Or does that just make me a dirty ferengi?
So guide prices will always be displayed to help those that need it right? Tell me how it helps people who want to have a large bet on and, under the old interface, would have ploughed through several prices at the expense of a lower average price? Is he treated like the scumbag above?
The prices will move in accordance with availability of money. There is obviously more chance of getting matched the further away you request from the guide price. Unless someone's wanting a bet of equal size in the opposite direction your man may have to go through numerous auctions to get matched but, as the queue is invisible, there's more chance of there being a sizable bet on the other side.
What about traders who want to back a horse since they know its price will soon come steaming in once people realise that it is overpriced to begin with?
Nothing to stop them backing and laying.
With regards to spoofers and the likes, I want to know whats going on in the market. If people are trying to spoof or spook the market, I want to know that they are doing this. It means price movements, extra activity.
The fact they do it means it's profitable for them and that means someone else (probably the small guys) are paying for it.
The underhand tactics employed by those annoying manipulators can be reduced vastly by getting rid of bots.
Getting rid of bots with the current system would decimate the markets. There's no shortage of positional player's bots.
The prices will move in accordance with availability of money. There is obviously more chance of getting matched the further away you request from the guide price. Unless someone's wanting a bet of equal size in the opposite direction your man may have to go through numerous auctions to get matched but, as the queue is invisible, there's more chance of there being a sizable bet on the other side.
What about traders who want to back a horse since they know its price will soon come steaming in once people realise that it is overpriced to begin with?
Nothing to stop them backing and laying.
With regards to spoofers and the likes, I want to know whats going on in the market. If people are trying to spoof or spook the market, I want to know that they are doing this. It means price movements, extra activity.
The fact they do it means it's profitable for them and that means someone else (probably the small guys) are paying for it.
The underhand tactics employed by those annoying manipulators can be reduced vastly by getting rid of bots.
Getting rid of bots with the current system would decimate the markets. There's no shortage of positional player's bots.
You mean the other end of his trade that he 'hopes' will get matched either immediately after, or at some point in the future? Good luck to him. He offered me better prices than anyone else and took on the risk for me. The only way that I could get hold of the other end of his trade would be if I had the luxury of time to wait for that better opportunity.
Far more likely you're matching an offer he took down seconds ago and put back up at slightly worse odds.
Far more likely you're matching an offer he took down seconds ago and put back up at slightly worse odds.
Youve obviously put alot of time and thought into your betting auction concept, may i suggest you think about something else in the future as its the dumbest thing ive ever read, change the whole exchange concept as that'll sort out the £2 front running bot, no wonder people get tired of you.
If i feel that the new offer is not enough, I won't take it, simple as that. I may even undercut the middleman! Your still missing a very important factor here - time. If I am not in the right place at the right time, that's my problem!
It still feels like the your system would benefit a very certain type of player. If your bets are influencing a market, this is a good thing (don't make me bring up the 'old dogs, new tricks' again!). If your bets are not influencing the market, again this is a good thing, it means your getting filled for the requested amount and price.
Market depth and clarity is the only way to ensure everyone knows exactly where they stand and can act accordingly. No system in the world is free from undesirables or underhand tactics.
It still feels like the your system would benefit a very certain type of player. If your bets are influencing a market, this is a good thing (don't make me bring up the 'old dogs, new tricks' again!). If your bets are not influencing the market, again this is a good thing, it means your getting filled for the requested amount and price.
Market depth and clarity is the only way to ensure everyone knows exactly where they stand and can act accordingly. No system in the world is free from undesirables or underhand tactics.
Feck N. Eejit
29 Jun 11 11:05
Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 4,046 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog
no momentum traders - why is that a benefit to anybody? Does anybody other than you care about somebody trading their opinion on a swing?
no spoofers - does anybody care that somebody just put 100k up? Who does it affect?
no £2 queue jumping bots - does anybody care about £2 in front of your bet? Maybe the silly billies who play leap frog with it. Anybody with sense ignores it completely.
bots have no advantage over manual traders - does anybody feel it should be a completely level playing field?
no trap bets - Is this a big enough problem to relay the whole exchange?
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market - Money follows money. Does anybody care that you can't get your lumps matched without a bit of work like the rest of us?
I can see why the above all suits yourself Feck but I'm sure given half a day we could all come up with a perfect exchange system which suits our individual needs perfectly.
29 Jun 11 11:05
Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 4,046 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog
no momentum traders - why is that a benefit to anybody? Does anybody other than you care about somebody trading their opinion on a swing?
no spoofers - does anybody care that somebody just put 100k up? Who does it affect?
no £2 queue jumping bots - does anybody care about £2 in front of your bet? Maybe the silly billies who play leap frog with it. Anybody with sense ignores it completely.
bots have no advantage over manual traders - does anybody feel it should be a completely level playing field?
no trap bets - Is this a big enough problem to relay the whole exchange?
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market - Money follows money. Does anybody care that you can't get your lumps matched without a bit of work like the rest of us?
I can see why the above all suits yourself Feck but I'm sure given half a day we could all come up with a perfect exchange system which suits our individual needs perfectly.
I'm aware it wouldn't suit most on here but most on here don't supply any liquidity and just wouldn't be missed as betfair's price rises illustrate.
If betfair had started off as a price auction site and some of the arguments above had turned it into the current site we'd be p1ssing ourselves laughing at those arguments every time we looked at the early markets on Last5Minutes.com.
again, feck trying to set some kind of agenda by sheer force of obsessive repetition. regardless of the fact that his idea is utter b0llocks.
presumably we can look forward to another year of cut and paste whining drivel hijacking every potentially interesting thread.
presumably we can look forward to another year of cut and paste whining drivel hijacking every potentially interesting thread.
Now, now viv. Please stop these obsessive repetitive posts.
No worries viv. Stick to calimero threads and we'll be fine.
Feck I'm sure most of us are open to change so long as we can see an advantage for us.
But there must be more reason to your argument than the points you listed above?
But there must be more reason to your argument than the points you listed above?
Rocket, your argument is nobody cares about my points so what is it they want to hang on to at Last5Minutes.com?
My argument is you're asking for one hell of an expensive and disruptive change for changes which seem pointless.
The points you listed would not in a million years justify the kind of work your asking Betfair to undertake which is why I was asking what else you had in mind because there must be something.
The points you listed would not in a million years justify the kind of work your asking Betfair to undertake which is why I was asking what else you had in mind because there must be something.
That system would require a fraction of betfair's maintenance and processing power. It would also make most of the pc payers redundant. I don't expect betfair to implement it especially now that the providers of the famous liquidity are working mainly for them.
The idea is that it would increase liquidity Rocket. People could put up bets overnight or in the morning of any size.
You can do that under the current system.
Are you angry with the front runners? I don't see why, they are always a step behind you, you always have the advantage.
Are you after an exchange in which your last5minutes is realised a day or two days earlier?
Are you angry with the front runners? I don't see why, they are always a step behind you, you always have the advantage.
Are you after an exchange in which your last5minutes is realised a day or two days earlier?
Try doing it in the current system Rocket, your bets will act as bookends. When I've been going racing I've stuck up large bets overnight and maybe got a total of £4 matched despite the fact that more than half the horses ended up longer than I requested. It's all one people saying they want to see the queue but imo it's pointless when that leads to there being nothing to see.
the only reason behind feck's "plan" is that it would enable him to get matched at stupid prices. the sooner people stop discussing it, the sooner we can focus on stuff that's actually relevant to betfair. rather than the workings of that baroque rival exchange of the imagination feckfair
Would it allow me to get matched at stupid prices? Does that mean I'm not being matched at stupid prices just now? As far as I'm concerned the main benefits would be ease of use and that would bring in money that wasn't there before.
I understand that Feck
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market - Money follows money. Does anybody care that you can't get your lumps matched without a bit of work like the rest of us?
But I don't understand why this inconvenience should constitute a new exchange.
Bets of any size can be put into the system without freaking the market - Money follows money. Does anybody care that you can't get your lumps matched without a bit of work like the rest of us?
But I don't understand why this inconvenience should constitute a new exchange.
sorry feck, I'm not interested in discussing your crazed self-serving idea. that last post was for the benefit of other forumites.
Interesting Piece, just stumbled across this site. http://www.thesocialgambler.com/2011/06/29/greedy-betfair-stick-two-fingers-...
Has anyone actually listened to the broadcast of the results yet??
Feck as you know i have been here a long time. I have not made my money as a trader, courtsider, fast pics etc. Got a telephone call today to say that I either pay 60% premium charge or close my account.
I was one of the people who laid decent prices on the early markets that you refer to. I got picked off from time to time, but I stopped completely laying early horses when the 20% was introduced.
Got no alternative now but to bet elsewhere, or I could just become a loser.
I was one of the people who laid decent prices on the early markets that you refer to. I got picked off from time to time, but I stopped completely laying early horses when the 20% was introduced.
Got no alternative now but to bet elsewhere, or I could just become a loser.
you won't become a loser because you will adapt
i believe betfair got this all wrong. if you have a choice you don't battle the most sophisticated opponent you can possibly pick
so instead of challenging the particular group of traders they are after they should pick on the other 98% of customers.
would not require as harsh a measure (and PR nightmare) as moving the fee up all the way to 60% in some cases
also would not create an environment where the adaptability of the winning customers might create much bigger problems long term
i believe betfair got this all wrong. if you have a choice you don't battle the most sophisticated opponent you can possibly pick
so instead of challenging the particular group of traders they are after they should pick on the other 98% of customers.
would not require as harsh a measure (and PR nightmare) as moving the fee up all the way to 60% in some cases
also would not create an environment where the adaptability of the winning customers might create much bigger problems long term
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