Opening a betting shop

break in with a crowbar

JUST GET IN THRU THE ROOF

fatboy

It shut for a reason, and the reason being the game is fkd, 100k overheads a year, and then you get someone from the gamb comm (who thinks a yankee is an american and a round robin is a fat bird) coming in and telling you how to run your business.

If you want to open just apply for a licence of the council the apply to the gamb comm for a licence. When the gamb comm forms come through you will bin them after page 53, when they want to know how you will deal with the local drug dealer who has just spun ked 5k in your machine.

virtually impossible for an individual to legally start up these days - you would need an immediate clientele to turnover at least £60K a month

Plenty of 'pre 1961' types out there though - even if you get caught, due to the state of the justice system in this country, you wouldnt get fined more than the licence fee!

So, whats to think about?

maine

my friend just closed down after 8 years, koral opened up in town, slow painful death. GC total rubbish ruined it for small guy.

not sure that true- local council A2 plan permission- GC licence Off u go and good luck

If you get a licence open a shop with as many FOBT as you are allowed and only take bets at prices above Betfair.....in effect an amusement arcade.

fatboy

please take note of what maine road tells you as he is 100% correct and if you want a complete breakdown of figures he will supply them and to be honest it is staggering and you wonder how the big 3 baldy and no power actually keep some of there shops open even with the fobts.

the info i was given recently about a certain company who do guaranteed odds/treble the odds/money back concessions was frightining as the majority of there shops are not making it pay it is all being subsidised by online operations.

if you are seriously thinking of going into this game come down to north london and try and find an independent bookmakers and there is only a handful left and one of those is on the brink of going under so if you think the machines are your road to riches think again as you will need a shop on a high street which is saturated with the big firms but you will be paying top rent/rates etc and you will need deep pockets to sustain the losing runs when these machines have a losing streak.

also turf tv seem to be chasing you if you have got racing uk plus the big 3 will bubble you if your near there shop and sky will also be down for using a domestic package .

there is not much you can get away with now even fiddling the bees wax has gone since tax free so if you want a 7 day a week job from 10.00 till 22.00 to earn approx a monkey a week good luck but you would probably earn more driving a sherbert around for them hours and less stress

Well said goggles, I will put up a list of overheads tomorrow cause I cant be bothered at the moment but will start with just 1 for now.

How about the yearly paper bill??????????????

£1562 not bad for starters.

I look forward to the figures. 15k on papers sounds shocking.

Will be interesting to see the full tally maineroad.

15 hundred

SIS 18000
TURF 7200
RATES 800
RENT 4800
STAFF WAGES 13000
LEVY 900
ELECTRIC./GAS 4000
PREM LICENCE 500
GAMB COMM 1600
PAPERS 1500
FOOTBALL LICENCE 600
TOTE MACHINE 300
COUPONS 1500
SLIPS PENS ROLLS ETC 1000
ALARM 500
EPOS SUPPORT 1200
PHONE INTERNET 1900
MACHINE LICENCE 5100
BETTING TAX 13000

TOTAL £78000

Gross profit tax; lets say you make  88k you would think you have made 10k after expenses, think again you pay betting tax on your GROSS PROFIT so you would pay 13k in tax on your profit, A PROFIT YOU DONT MAKE!

Licence to councill used to be £35 for 3 years now thanks to the gamb comm its £500 a year! So from £35 To £1500 in one go. Wow the council get £500 and all they have to do is pay for a 40p stamp and send you a certificate once a year.

Gamb comm £1600 a year and for what? I have seen them once just to make sure I had some stickers up and that I could tell the diff between someone who is 15 an some one who is 18.

Best of the lot. SIS 18k a year, overnight they lose 32 racetracks, but still charge 18k, but have no fear pay 7k to turf tv and you can have the 32 racetracks back. Not even fukin PENN an TELLER could come up wiyh a trick like that.

I'm off for a lie down.

sorry to depress you more maine road what about machine rental/water rates/ depreciation of shop/if your feeling flush sky commercial.

and since the removal of the means test i.e no one supposdly can open up approx 300 yards from you your biggest asset the licence is now worth 2 bob.

after this reading any wannabe betting shop owner would be better off jumping in the thames

anyone who sold shops bout 2006 ish we're very lucky
GC complete joke for the small guy SIS/turf ridiculous
5 years no small operators left imo

anyone who sold shops bout 2006 ish we're very lucky
GC complete joke for the small guy SIS/turf ridiculous
5 years no small operators left imo

Surely the removal of the demand test was a bigger factor in the drop in value of small operators?

Banks the removal of the demand test has finished any value the small independents had, but the gamb comm and sis/turf have made it impossible to make pay.

maineroad

go back to the early eighties when it was extel no sis and think what your exes were then and for betting shops they were hardly anything i think approx a pony a week for extel a sporting life and a greyform sheet and you could nick someone elses football coupons etc.

sis come along at about 12k a year then and come out with that old chestnut now you have pictures the punters will come out the woodwork and flock to your shop total balderdash that one only if your the only shop in the village with pictures was that going to happen.

then the big 3 decide they want evening/sunday opening so more hours/expense and of course the billy bunter has only got his daily bullseye to bet with so it just gets recycled over a longer period of the day.

sis prices are now rising for the independent but hey presto the big 3 do not seem to be effected as they are not paying the same amount as you a much less subsidised rate.

then tax free comes along so now everything might as well go through the jack and jill as no real reason to hide anything but if you do make a profit you can always put one on later to wipe out any winnings.

you then get the fobts for a couple of years in that grey area period with no machine licence to pay but the big 3 put forward the idea for the amld fee so in creeps another 8k a year.

along comes 2005 gambling act/commission as you have already stated with there fees and also turf tv at an extra 6.5 k a year and as you stated re sis there fees are now around 20k but they lose so many tracks do they cut there prices accordingly like fack they do.

and of course now your overheads have gone through the roof and your old style customer is dying and the new generation do not punt on horses/dogs.

need i go on to put fatboy off opening a shop as after a year he will be on here as suicidal boy when he has not got a pot to pi55 in

and not so fat

the end is nigh

They are shocking figures maineroad/goggles,hopeyou guys are out or getting out at least!?

I opened bookies in 2002, cost just over 6k to get the license. Within 18 months and only paying myself and my partner each £200 per week ( !!!! ), we had lost almost 30k !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
As has been said before, its the overheads that kill you.

To anyone thinking of doing it, ...................DONT

patrick

i am not a betting shop owner thank god but am releated through marriage to a family who had shops and thankfully got out in time but thats the reason i know a bit about the workings/running of a shop.

the ones i am related to could pull more strokes than duncan goodhew as they survived in the game for approx 40years and the money that must have slipped through there fingers was frightening.

at one stage they even held a record fine from customs and excise for betting tax evasion and still managed to survive and when i see them and ask about all the fiddles they tell you now as there out of it and from other punters i know no one ever got knocked they always paid perhaps not with a smile but going back to the expenses these guys were in a league of there own but the boy always maintains the downfall of the independent was the introduction of  tax free betting due to what you could fiddle when you had to pay the tax  before and sis.

i think it was about 2009 they got out of the game mainly due to ill health and there was no other fiddles to keep the expenses down bar money laundering and that was coming to an end and when they tell you you can not get around the expenses you know for sure then that  a betting shop will not survive let alone a novice coming into the game.

if anyone wants to go into it i dont think they will mind now if i told you the strokes to pull to survive but its no point posting it on here but as i said if these 2 could not get around the exes the average person has no chance and you will end up in the khazi after a year.

2 great posts goggles,

As you have said the game is gone. Nobody seems to understand that offcourse racing and dog racing is finished, I would be better off without the horses and dogs and just opened for the fobs and the football, my exs would go down an awful lot more than my profit. On good Friday with no racing I took the same number of bets as the Friday before with 6 meetings, last Friday I did more bets than the Friday before which was Royal Ascot.




.

First post for me on this subject ok lets go ......a one man band with all the regulations & expenses running one shop you would be better off burning your money in the garden....at least yoy'd keep warm

These are not made up, there no point in telling porkies.

Today amongst a load of tripe as usual took £400 on Carlton house which lost and £10 win and £2 eway on Lavana Joys in the 5.39 Steepledowns which won at 50/1 fukin fantastic.

maine road

funny you say that the boy used to tell me about an irish guy who used to love a punt on the horses/dogs but changed when fobts came in and virtual and always backed the pink/black colours whichever was the outsider or if they were short back the outsider of the field i.e 66/1 for a score e/w and they said it was amazing the times he kopped and said just have the bets away .
they say it can be a cruel game and laying that pox on the off is enough to jack the game in anyway chin up me old mukka try and live and fight another day.

i have heard on the grapevine no power and joke corals are fighting it out against each other with guaranteed odds on earlys and board prices where they are in competition from opening to closing  and hills are doing the shops up next to powder puff and going 4x lucky 15s so hopefully you are not near that nonsense as you and i know theres only 1 winner and thats the punter who will fack off once the war comes to an end anyway be lucky mate i am glad i am in the removal business at least all i have to worry about is the phone ringing and taxing/insuring the wagons

fatboy

are you waiting for a positive reply to your question as so far no reply from you but i am sure some comedian on here will tell you what you want to hear but anyway good luck but i will give you one more piece of negativity there was a guy who won the lottery over in east london who i think was a manager for the tote or claridges and i know after the win he got a pitch at the dogs but more in line with what you are asking he bought a couple of shops over ilford.

anyway i dont know him personally but i am sure if you can get in touch somehow with him and ask him again if he would invest in shops and not forgetting this was not hard earned money or a bank loan would he invest his money again in lbos or if you have the front ask him how much he won or how much he had left of it after his flirtation with betting shops hopefully he was unscathed by it but if my aunt had bollox she would be my uncle and i know what the honest reply would be.

Years ago if an independent LBO had one of the big 4 nearby he would be told to trade on the same terms as them ie no special offers or they would trade at a loss to take his trade until he closed down.
No need to use those bullying tactics now as the overheads do the job.

the nearest i heard to that was say go back to the tax era and an indy went say 5%tax and laddies for instance matched it after 6 months they might have said call a truce as neither shop is winning but no doubt you could be right if one of the big 3 had shown intrest in buying the company out and said stop the concessions for a while and we will see the difference in take then but even that is a little bit silly as once they normally put there name above a shop the turnover would increase unless you falsified the figures astronomically

This was actually during the tax era when our local bookie who we knew very well was told to stop offering tax concessions by two of the nearby big 4 who said unless he played ball they would both offer the same much better deals until he went under.
A sign of the times then when we had 3 LBOs in about a mile along a main road.

as i said earlier the only concessions/wars breking out now are between no powers and joke corals with billies having a little go back but the gross profit in some the shops are a disgrace and back to the old expenses no independent could make it pay.

i even went past a jennings/better shop in east finchley and that is now run by a company called cube or words to that effect so it looks like they could not even knock that shop out and thats pretty scary considering its opposite what was once one of the best mecca/hills shops in north london.

as you say a sign of the times

Interesting thread.

The game is cocked.

maine road

Do you think there is any chance FOBT'S could be getting pulled soon by the Government? The big boys are getting very aggressive with them now, probably no chance of this and it is simply them attempting to enforce more profit growth but they do seem to be getting very forceful with them.

baaabrava;  The FOBS are a licence to print money. They are the only reason the shops are now open pretty much every waking hour 7 days a week.

You turn them on, empty them then turn them off. They cannot lose and the
busier you are the more money they make.

At the moment the govmt are getting £2525 per year for every machine. So I pay exactly the same tax on my machine as a shop that makes 30 times more on their machine.

The big 4 make about £600 per week per machine, thats £124800 per year yet pay the same as me who makes no where near that.

What will come soon is a tax on the profit the machines make. So if they make £124800 and the govmt charge 15% they will have to pay £18720 as opposed to £10k now. Dont forget without these machines about 80% of shops would close.

The immigrants love them, they see a horse race or dog race and think they are watching a wildlife program but £2 on 28 black speaks all languages.

maine road

i do not know how you go getting one but these new bgt terminals that no powers are installing are meant to be taking some serious money in certain shops.

the beauty of them is there is no licence fee and there is a rumour that theres no rental fee you install them and kop a percentage fee of turnover.

only problem is they are very popular with eastern europeans etc so you would need to be in that sort of catchment area to reap the benefits.

saying that you can bet on anything on the machines so theres no stopping you hammering live money through them.

theres a laddies in lordship lane in wood green  that has at least 3 of the machines and theres talk of putting in another 3 and last year during the football season a six figure sum was supposedly put in them.

now no power have turned the pub opposite into a shop and are installing 3 of these machines plus 4 fobts on the strentgh of what laddies take and a billies shop next to the pub.

there is also rumours that if a paddies shop has not got enough room to accomadate all the machines they will take an fobt out and put a bgt terminal in so that will give you an idea on what they think they can earn out of one of these terminals

TBH goggles I dont know too much about those machines, but from what you are saying the gambling comm will be coming down on them soon. They cant be FOBTs or there would be a licence to pay, and only 4 are allowed. As for me getting one, there is no chance of them stickin one in as I am not busy enough. They look like a lot of in running goes on with them but believe me the gamb comm will be all over these things like a rash. Its ok to do bombs in on bet fair or online across the globe but look like you are taking money off anyone in a big way in a shop and they come to the rescue.

Betfair are now taking more on football than on horses for the 1st time  ever which shows the way things are going.

Mega shops with machines like you say that concentrate on sport and these terminals will be the future.

Your indy shop will soon be gone the same way as the rag n bone man and the lorry that used to bring lemonade round.

these machines have been about on a trial period for approx 6 months in a handful of paddies and it looks like the future now as you can bet on any sport with football in every country you can imagine.
horses dogs you name it theres prices for it
.
it makes a tote direct terminal something michael aspel might stumble on in the antiques roadshow.

they wont need managers soon there have a girl walking round the shop like the old usherettes in the cinema showing them the machines and getting them a coffee.

all she has to do is switch them on and empty them  at the end and what with the racing post newspaper screens what is the need for staff.

the big 3 have finally got what they wanted no independents and all they needed was the help of sis/turf tv and the rest of the expenses.

after all them years 1960 to 2005 they couldnt wipe them out but another 18 months and i dread to think how many more will have given up.

Interesting read this.

What is a bgt machine though?  I don't know that term

i think it stands for betting gaming terminal.

you might find another forum user named banks might know more about these than me or if any manager of a shop that have these terminals installed could tell you more but find a paddies and take a look it is a serious piece of machine for what it is capable of doing

Goggles heres a good un; you just mentioned tote direct terminal. Well I got my statement this morning for last week Stake £47 Pay out nil commission £6.50 NETWORK COSTS £27, so it cost me £21 to take a few scoops and the odd place pot!!!!!!!!!!!

When they first came out and they were touch screen me old man wouldnt use his finger in case he got an electric shock, he would only use a wooden ruler...

another bet that has died.

if you was brave enough to take them before tote direct machines came along or you had a nice low limit no one spotted you would have probably took at least 25 a day.

buy the poxy machine as a safety net and as you mention the network costs i should imagine the average slippage now is probably 2 x 50p slips a day.

A good few years ago the placepot was a good value bet because 90% of the people doing them new nothing and just stuck favs down, so a perm with a few lines often paid a very good dividend.

when they were never put in the pool thats going back a few years and perming bets to a total stake of approx £100.00 when your unit stake was .02pence.
that all stopped when ar dennis a firm in east london tried to hedge them and was told minimum stake units accepted was .05 pence.

ah so bgt terminal is just a way of putting bets on instead of going to the counter?  I assume the are pre-programmed only to lay a certain liability?

I've tried in the past (to no avail) to take the bets off the big scoop perms and give them half the commission back but nothing ever comes of it, I would like to know who they put the massive perms on with.

Next 4 races 6.35 6.38 6.40 6.42 wtf

Todays FOBT stakes £3123 over the counter £428

maximum unit stake £300.00 maximum payout £100,000.

these limits have only just been put up but these machines maybe installed in no powers but there owned and run independently by an Austrian firm so the prices are not paddies

OK one more question are they card only or can you feed cash in?

Sounds to me that they are some form of self service terminal.

otc is shocking there mate but fobt is very good and as you said earlier take sis out and stick with the machines and football and theres no doubt profit wise you would be better off as you have slashed your exes.
not all the big 3/paddies shops take 3k a day on the machines as you know some take fortunes others not but there playing in numbers your solo but if your averaging that fobt take and not being one lunatic player pumping it thats fairly resectable

can load cash into terminal just like fobts and also staff can load machine if customer pays by debit/credit card

OK thanks.

Got them BGT'S in Coral Shop in Gib Casino

without the live pics I must add.

maine

can u pay GC licence monthly ?
in sept that and premisis will be bout £22oo

No you can't pay it monthly.

I set my shop up recently. £977 to apply for the licence, then £1234.50 (someone at the GC having a larf I reckon) for year one.... Despite not even being open for business, once granted. And, the forms took ages and were ridiculous. Next year, £1650 - payable, as ever, in advance. Same cost whether 1 shop or 4!!!

Most unfair.

The big firms pay about £100 ish per shop, and get a fraction of the attention from the GC that the small ones get.

Likewise SIS - £18,000 approx for us single shops, about £100K for the big firms - who get it pumped into their central studio, and then redirect it to their own shops (having held back price changes for a few seconds where it suits them first).

FOBT licences can be paid monthly though, (about £2500 per machine per year).
The machines cost £100 per week per shop, plus 13% of any profit. Unless they're played ALOT they are not always the massive money spinners they can be.

As has been mentioned, tote machine isn't all that busy, but also it's not THAT expensive either.

Sorry if I've covered what's been mentioned before by others.....
Another thing to bear in mind is unforeseen expenses. For example, electrical work I found was necessary has cost about 1,200 over the last 3 months. Sewage leak, and building problems causing plumbing problems etc etc about 500 too.

Shop refit cost MUCH more than was anticipated, and other regular expenses like footy coupons, betting slips and more need to be considered.

brave to start a shop in current climate

how r u doing ?

I dont understand SIS or the gamb comm, you would swear they both want to shut the small indy down.

Sis wont give you an inch, yet if you shut they are 18k a year down.

The gamb comm have got to be coming to a close, there is nothing they can do anymore with regards to the small indy. Put your stickers up, stop kids coming in, and keep your eye on anyone who looks like they have loads of hookey money (I wish). £1650 a year  to be told to keep a look out for vulnerable people, the 16 year old kid scratchin about 20 scratch cards in the local post office this morning is ok I suppose.

It has quiet moments, and hedging is the most inexact of sciences, but as people find we're here and we're nice to them, not as bad as it could be.

I have LOADS of experience doing this, mind you, and have done it before too, which helps. Good staff is also a bonus.

where are you based sweetfa?

Midlands - not too far from Brum.

OK, good luck with your venture anyway.

sweet fa

i do not know if its the road you want to take but i know if you push leisure link hard enough you could switch to a percentage re the machines.

my relation was on 95% him 5% leisure link and his thinking was no rent to pay and if they lost on the week etc no rent to pay but downside was if you had good weeks you probably paid more than rent but i suppose you work it out with what your shop wins over the year

Thanks, Vis.
I've got Global Draw, goggles. I think their machines are the most popular. I know they do better deals if you've got lots of shops - Abit like everyone else really.

Goggles; The best deal I have found if you want to profit share is 25% Supplier 75% shop with no rent to pay.

The best is where the supplier takes off all the exs before his share ie the licence and the vat.

Say you turnover a million a year on the FOBT you should win about 2.75%, £27500 x 75% is £400 a week, so £56 a day on a turn over of a million, not much is it?

Sweetfa I've found the football to be the best thing to push. Last season I really marketed it, and took all the horseracing bumf out of the window and just concentrated on the footy. European/ both to score/ 1st scorers, I found the profit in the football far better than anything else, and with games on TV every day it wasn't just limited to Saturdays.

I'm inclined to agree with that, Maine Rd. Not sure about the 'both teams to score' coupons though. Like the Irish Lottery, people keep going for glory.... small stakes and massive prices, and occasionally copping a payout which is more than we're taking on the event.

We're taking 50+ coupons on the footy on a Saturday, and it's mostly OK.
Irish lottery however, is about the biggest loser in the shop, and worst of all you never get that back.

100% spot on with the Irish, L/O about £40 a week but did have a nicker on 4 numbers when someone had 50p on so its put me in front for a bit. I have now taken all the **** about the Irish down and my takings on it have dropped, but giving away £575 for a nicker to someone you see once a week finally did me in.

I pushed the both to score a lot, and was taking good money on it. The week near the end of the season when they all scored I paid out £1500 for a £1 but was still well in front on the season.

It's got to the point (after 3x 3 nos, and 1 x 4 no -from 7- at varying stakes, in a month), that I'm getting rid of anything which pays a monkey or more, so my hedging on Irish is about £150 a week. Getting on for 1/2 the take.

The other loser generally, is hedging. I reckon we've spent about 4K in the last 3 months. With NO return. A necessary evil though. Bleedin' L15's with the 1st 2 or 3 up, so it costs you twice, once again money you don't get back.

maine road /sweetfa

i just spoke to the boy and he said what he done to get the best deal was say he was with global he fed each machine himself with approx 1000.00 and then pulled the ticket he done this for approx 1 month then rang leisure link and said he was intrested in there machines.

when the salesman come down he showed these inflated figures i.e machines taking over 8000.00 a day but can not win/get his whack out of them.

salesman sees this big 3 take in the machine and belives the figures and offers them this deal but says you have to sign minimum 3year so of course they agree .

still worth a try if you can be bothered as it doesnt cost you a bean to do i suppose you could just load the terminal from behind the counter but he couldnt remember why he sat there just filling it up himself and then emptying it i think he said he got fed up watching loose women/jeremy kyle show

Goggles; That would of worked a bit ago, but now if someone sticks bombs in a keeps collecting the money the supplier will know and expect it to be either money from a robbery/scottish/irish hookey/drug money.

The gamb comm would be round  likes rats up a drain wantin to know why you didnt tell the police interpol or the CIA.

2006/2007 he done that but if your looking to change supplier fack em but i suppose you are only down to l/link /global and are gamestec and cyberview still about or have they vanished from the scene

It's all Global or Inspire now, and the computer systems they use are ever more sophisticated. As maineroad says.

now i see what they mean that all the strokes/avenues to pull regarding expenses are closing or closed

Sweetfa how do you find the virtual? I cant stand it. Its supposed to replicate the real thing? what a load of bollox. Back the outsiders on this and I guarantee you will make your money last longer than on the real stuff.

Today on the real racing we had 20 races the big prices have been 16/1 and 12/1 winners and places at 66/1 150/1 33/1

the virtual has had 33 races with winners at 66/1 66/1 33/1 20/1 20/1 and places of 66/1 50/1, why not have the motor racing/speedway virtual like Hills where the Fav is 2/1 and the outsider 16/1.

It frightens the crap out of me tbh.
A last minute bet on a tricast could cost 10K, and there would be nothing you could do about it.

The big firms don't mind a big win on the virtual, a lovely advert for them and they can afford to pay it.

i think i might get the old typewriter out and print a maximum winnings of £1000.00 for virtual/numbers betting and insert it in the rules

you would have to go to specsavers to read it if i had a shop with my rules

I can remember an across the card limit of £100 many moons ago!

Ever think a coupon with teams just to score would do well?

Think it could appeal as much as the both to score myself, maybe even more.

Barava I try to get them on the sections list on the both to score. They start at the top section and it looks easy but get to the bottom and they end up with big odds on bankers playing teams who wont score.

The best thing for me on the both to score is that it gives odds for a number of games ie 8 matches 100/1  5 matches 8/1it makes it easier for the punter to understand.

I stick it up as 8 matches win £500 for a fiver, when if fact its 16 teams to score, doesn't sound so easy now does it?

Fully agree mate. Think the golden period of that bet has now gone, once Fred understood what he was actually giving away!

sweetfa

Will give you a ring on tuesday, need a favour

Hope all is well

OK, If I can.

maine

just had council premises licence renewal invoice
£750

last year £600
25% increase !

Unbelievable Capt F.


So the  council get £750 for issuing a piece of paper that costs 38p for a stamp. The licence was £35 for 3 years not so long ago.

To be fair you cant really blame the council as it was the gambling comm who gave them the right to charge this.

So £1800 to the gamb comm and £750 to the council making £2550. If you get caught takin bets in a pub the fine is about  monkey. The gamb comm have to be the most useless ill informed clueless  bunch on the planet.

To be fair you cant really blame the council as it was the gambling comm who gave them the right to charge this.

Nothing to do with them. It was a result of the legislation.

Fair enough but who ever it was decided it was wrong. Why can't the gamb comm see whats happening to the small indy and have it changed.

By the way who actually came up with the fee?

I think it was DCMS. I'm pretty sure they set the maximum fee that the councils can charge. Not surprisingly most appear to charge full whack.