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Apologies if this has been discussed before (couldn't see any titles referring to it on page 1).
What do you think of the cash out function on the new betting screen?
It's not something I've ever used, but having just noticed it's offering me a 13p loss on a market that has moved in my favour, it is not something I'm ever likely to use either (I have got £20 on Swansea at 1.61, currently able to lay @ 1.60).
When it first appeared a few weeks ago, I thought it was a good idea and something that can be used quickly in fast moving markets, but never thought that using it would cost you part of your profit.
My question really is, is it considerred morally acceptable amongst forumites, that there is a charge (on top of commision) for the use of an instant cash out feature (considerring that it is an extra service Betfair are providing, that you can easily avoid using)?
What do you think of the cash out function on the new betting screen?
It's not something I've ever used, but having just noticed it's offering me a 13p loss on a market that has moved in my favour, it is not something I'm ever likely to use either (I have got £20 on Swansea at 1.61, currently able to lay @ 1.60).
When it first appeared a few weeks ago, I thought it was a good idea and something that can be used quickly in fast moving markets, but never thought that using it would cost you part of your profit.
My question really is, is it considerred morally acceptable amongst forumites, that there is a charge (on top of commision) for the use of an instant cash out feature (considerring that it is an extra service Betfair are providing, that you can easily avoid using)?
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Aside from stealing the pennies via cross matching what is this charge you speak of?
yes its morally acceptable imo.
Took me about 10 seconds to realise its a poor value service so i dont use it and moved on.
I'd be surprised if anyone can move the debate on from my view.
Took me about 10 seconds to realise its a poor value service so i dont use it and moved on.
I'd be surprised if anyone can move the debate on from my view.
I would go a bit further than that RR - it is a piece of cr@p designed to take easy money from the dim witted. Of all the good things that they could be investing in to enhance the experience - they came up with that! Enough said.
ive nothing against cr@p taking money from dimwits
Not a popular view for the forum but i dont mind BF finding new revenue streams.
The big picture with their annual profits scratching around to make £20m a year i think they're entitled to try to increase this.
Not a popular view for the forum but i dont mind BF finding new revenue streams.
The big picture with their annual profits scratching around to make £20m a year i think they're entitled to try to increase this.
RR, I agree with the sentiment - but fleecing newbies (like so many of their other "new developments") is evidence that they are stumped and yet more evidence of really short term thinking - in fact I would go further - after the short term gain it is actually then likely to be detrimental to their future revenue streams (imo).
They are very much entitled to try to increase their profits - but they need to find a sustainable way of doing it. An increase achieved in the short term that costs you (customers and revenue) in the longer term is just plain daft.
They are very much entitled to try to increase their profits - but they need to find a sustainable way of doing it. An increase achieved in the short term that costs you (customers and revenue) in the longer term is just plain daft.
btw - I have nothing against taking money from dimwits either! - whatever phraseology you prefer, surely that is what we are all here for. But cashing people out at significantly short of the right prices isn't going to encourage anyone to stay. The uninitiated probably expect to (initially) get fleeced (hopefully gradually) by the more initiated but I don't imagine they were expecting to get mugged by the host!
I've seen many forum postings from Betfair stating that there is no additional charge/applied margin for using the cash out function. As far as I can make out all the facility does is place Exchange bets for the user trying to reduce variation as much as possible at the best value.
In very illiquid markets I would not use this functionality (as in most instances a bet lay bet would be
placed to oppose my initial back and when the % book is large obviously a muggy practise).
In liquid markets the cash out functionality offers a good service for all website users, regardless of how savvy you may consider yourself. Try calculating the best bets to place, after having placed a number of correct score bets at varying stakes,on different selections, to try and green up. Cash out will do it for you in seconds.
I'm just looking forward to them attempting to replicate this in horse racing markets when greening up in-play, at best value, is near on impossible through the website.
In very illiquid markets I would not use this functionality (as in most instances a bet lay bet would be
placed to oppose my initial back and when the % book is large obviously a muggy practise).
In liquid markets the cash out functionality offers a good service for all website users, regardless of how savvy you may consider yourself. Try calculating the best bets to place, after having placed a number of correct score bets at varying stakes,on different selections, to try and green up. Cash out will do it for you in seconds.
I'm just looking forward to them attempting to replicate this in horse racing markets when greening up in-play, at best value, is near on impossible through the website.
Woodo - if people are not capable of "cashing themselves out", they probably shouldn't be playing here imo.
Paying (likely a very heavy price in illiquid markets) to have it done for you is not a sustainable way to play.
I cannot understand why any BF customer would see this as a good development (putting to one side the fact that its delivery seemed to cause untold outages earlier in the year) - as a customer I would prefer that I was getting matched against the sort of person that would use this facility. The only people I can imagine wanting to see this replicated in more markets would be a (short sighted) shareholder or a (short sighted) BF employee!
Paying (likely a very heavy price in illiquid markets) to have it done for you is not a sustainable way to play.
I cannot understand why any BF customer would see this as a good development (putting to one side the fact that its delivery seemed to cause untold outages earlier in the year) - as a customer I would prefer that I was getting matched against the sort of person that would use this facility. The only people I can imagine wanting to see this replicated in more markets would be a (short sighted) shareholder or a (short sighted) BF employee!
I don't see the problem with Betfair offering this.They don't make any additional money from me if I were to use this functionality instead of placing my bets directly into the market. All they are doing is automating the betting process so that I can reduce the variation in my position faster.
Granted that in most markets, and in most situations, it is easy enough (for most) to do this themselves but ,as The Pessimist eludes to, in fast moving markets it makes it easy to green/red up without having to do the calculations yourself. His issue was with an additional charge (on top of commission) that, as far as I can see, does not exist.
From my use I have been advertised a cash out value,and then cashed out, to be given better positions on many of the other runners. Maybe they just advertise the worst possible position.
How many times have you wanted to green up in a lightning fast horse race and not been able to react,calculate and place bets fast enough?
Granted that in most markets, and in most situations, it is easy enough (for most) to do this themselves but ,as The Pessimist eludes to, in fast moving markets it makes it easy to green/red up without having to do the calculations yourself. His issue was with an additional charge (on top of commission) that, as far as I can see, does not exist.
From my use I have been advertised a cash out value,and then cashed out, to be given better positions on many of the other runners. Maybe they just advertise the worst possible position.
How many times have you wanted to green up in a lightning fast horse race and not been able to react,calculate and place bets fast enough?
Woodo - no offence my friend but given that you have chosen this thread to make your only two forum posts ever, I half suspect that you are the employee that came up with the idea 
.
Given that in the past, airing my opinions on BF's (brilliant, exciting and innovative) development of new functions, have resulted in me being given a forum "holiday" - it's probably best if we just agree to disagree.
Did I mention that I think all of the new developments are brilliant, exciting and innovative?
. Given that in the past, airing my opinions on BF's (brilliant, exciting and innovative) development of new functions, have resulted in me being given a forum "holiday" - it's probably best if we just agree to disagree.
Did I mention that I think all of the new developments are brilliant, exciting and innovative?
Totally misguided - bur brilliant, exciting and innovative! 
ha - there is a first time for everything 
. I tend to place most of my bets via the API and interested by the fact BF have introduced some automation on the site....but anyway, I think it's good, you think it's bad - fair enough..
. I tend to place most of my bets via the API and interested by the fact BF have introduced some automation on the site....but anyway, I think it's good, you think it's bad - fair enough..
The reason is doesnt give you the best picture is that it offers the best scenario a couple of ticks back from the best price, to give a more realistic/likely outcome. Since bf is an exchange, prices cant be guaranteed and all the green up button does is place a bet a couple of ticks back for you - if there is a better price available when it gets into the queue, of course it will match. I use it loads, I honestly dont see why anyone would have a problem with it.
Chilly the Dog 05 May 11 17:59
Since bf is an exchange....
^
I stopped reading after that bit. Where have you been?
Have you missed the delivery of Exchange Games, The Arcade, Poker, Casino, plus the episode with high rollers, introduction of cross matching, etc?
Since bf is an exchange....
^
I stopped reading after that bit. Where have you been?Have you missed the delivery of Exchange Games, The Arcade, Poker, Casino, plus the episode with high rollers, introduction of cross matching, etc?
Alex the old wrinkled retainer 05 May 11 08:31
Aside from stealing the pennies via cross matching what is this charge you speak of?
Woodo 05 May 11 16:15
Granted that in most markets, and in most situations, it is easy enough (for most) to do this themselves but ,as The Pessimist eludes to, in fast moving markets it makes it easy to green/red up without having to do the calculations yourself. His issue was with an additional charge (on top of commission) that, as far as I can see, does not exist.
----------
Apologies, if this just seems ignorant, looking at the bet that made me recognise this, there must be some kind of charge.
I backed Swansea £20 at 1.61,
They were available to lay at 1.60.
If I layed off £20.13 at 1.60, this would leave me with a minimum return of £20.11 after commision (ie 11p Profit)
However, using the Cash Out function, I would have returned £19.87 (a 13p Loss)
Hence it would cost me 24p to use the service (who gets this if not Betfair?).
I know it's only pennies, but it doesn't ring right with me.
How much would the bigger punters lose out on?
Unless I have got it wrong somewhere? Please explain if so.
Aside from stealing the pennies via cross matching what is this charge you speak of?
Woodo 05 May 11 16:15
Granted that in most markets, and in most situations, it is easy enough (for most) to do this themselves but ,as The Pessimist eludes to, in fast moving markets it makes it easy to green/red up without having to do the calculations yourself. His issue was with an additional charge (on top of commission) that, as far as I can see, does not exist.
----------
Apologies, if this just seems ignorant, looking at the bet that made me recognise this, there must be some kind of charge.
I backed Swansea £20 at 1.61,
They were available to lay at 1.60.
If I layed off £20.13 at 1.60, this would leave me with a minimum return of £20.11 after commision (ie 11p Profit)
However, using the Cash Out function, I would have returned £19.87 (a 13p Loss)
Hence it would cost me 24p to use the service (who gets this if not Betfair?).
I know it's only pennies, but it doesn't ring right with me.
How much would the bigger punters lose out on?
Unless I have got it wrong somewhere? Please explain if so.
pessimist - I don't think you have been charged, I think it's more a case that the amount offered is "indicative", because once you go for it and the transaction is executed it is taking the price at that precise point, which may not be the same price as when the indication was given. Better to just execute the bets yourself at the price you want imo. That way you know (precisely) what you will be getting.
Having said that, I have never even looked at the "new in play" screens since day one when I realised I would need a new 30 foot high monitor to use them! - so if anybody else offers an alternative opinion - you might be better to go with their view.
- so if anybody else offers an alternative opinion - you might be better to go with their view.
If you had reviewed the posts above, you would have noted that it was suggested that the cash out amount is indicative only.
As you didn't actually use the cash out facility you don't know whether it would have returned the £19.87 indicated or the £20.11 you would expect. Assuming that a minimum of £20.13 was available to lay on Swansea at 1.6 at the point your bet hit the market using the facility, the posts above and bf's information below suggest the latter.
As I have not used the facility, I can't confirm whether that is the case.
Cash Out is currently only available on the new Football match page and the following Football markets but we intend to add more:
- Match Odds
- Correct Score
- Over/Under 2.5 Goals
Cash Out Now automatically places bets on the Betfair market to lock in a position.
The cash out value is the minimum amount you would receive if you were to make a successful cash out.
Any profit made on the market will be paid when the market is settled.
Any reduction in exposure will be credited back to your account after placing a successful cash out.
Cash Out Now will only appear if the bets to be placed are greater than £2.
If there is a lack of liquidity in a market Cash Out Now may not be available.
The cash out value is the minimum amount you would receive if you were to make a successful cash out but cash out amounts are not guaranteed as they are based on the live Betfair markets where prices are constantly moving. This means you may receive more or less than indicated, or Cash Out Now may not be successful or only partially successful.
If a bet is partially accepted then we will offer you a new Cash Out Now amount based on your revised position and the current prices in the Betfair market.
If a bet is not accepted then we will offer you a new Cash Out Now amount based on the revised prices in the Betfair market.
As you didn't actually use the cash out facility you don't know whether it would have returned the £19.87 indicated or the £20.11 you would expect. Assuming that a minimum of £20.13 was available to lay on Swansea at 1.6 at the point your bet hit the market using the facility, the posts above and bf's information below suggest the latter.
As I have not used the facility, I can't confirm whether that is the case.
Cash Out is currently only available on the new Football match page and the following Football markets but we intend to add more:
- Match Odds
- Correct Score
- Over/Under 2.5 Goals
Cash Out Now automatically places bets on the Betfair market to lock in a position.
The cash out value is the minimum amount you would receive if you were to make a successful cash out.
Any profit made on the market will be paid when the market is settled.
Any reduction in exposure will be credited back to your account after placing a successful cash out.
Cash Out Now will only appear if the bets to be placed are greater than £2.
If there is a lack of liquidity in a market Cash Out Now may not be available.
The cash out value is the minimum amount you would receive if you were to make a successful cash out but cash out amounts are not guaranteed as they are based on the live Betfair markets where prices are constantly moving. This means you may receive more or less than indicated, or Cash Out Now may not be successful or only partially successful.
If a bet is partially accepted then we will offer you a new Cash Out Now amount based on your revised position and the current prices in the Betfair market.
If a bet is not accepted then we will offer you a new Cash Out Now amount based on the revised prices in the Betfair market.
As The Management stated some 15 minutes ago. I should learn to refresh the forum and type quicker.
Thanks all. Won't be using it any time soon all the same.
" I have never even looked at the "new in play" screens since day one when I realised I would need a new 30 foot high monitor to use them! "
They are woeful. Wish we could go back to the old format, when Match Odds was the first screen you saw in each match, rather that waiting for every market to load on one screen.
" I have never even looked at the "new in play" screens since day one when I realised I would need a new 30 foot high monitor to use them! "
They are woeful. Wish we could go back to the old format, when Match Odds was the first screen you saw in each match, rather that waiting for every market to load on one screen.
pessimist you can still do that. From the football homepage, click 'view full market' for the match you are interested in instead of clicking on the match itself, that takes you straight to match odds.
When Betfair do all these upgrades they need to make sure not to waste 'screen space'. Even though the design is pretty slick there's so much space wasted, with big gaps in between selections.
There are some 'no brainer' improvements Betfair could make to the site on an extremely basic level.
The primary one would be an option to turn off the 'bet status' screen that comes up telling you either that your bet is matched or unmatched.
I must click the [Continue] and [Go to 'My Bets] literally hundreds of times every single day. This is a truly colossal waste of time in aggregate.
LESS CLICKING = MORE BETTING
It doesn't get any more obvious than that.
When Betfair do all these upgrades they need to make sure not to waste 'screen space'. Even though the design is pretty slick there's so much space wasted, with big gaps in between selections.
There are some 'no brainer' improvements Betfair could make to the site on an extremely basic level.
The primary one would be an option to turn off the 'bet status' screen that comes up telling you either that your bet is matched or unmatched.
I must click the [Continue] and [Go to 'My Bets] literally hundreds of times every single day. This is a truly colossal waste of time in aggregate.
LESS CLICKING = MORE BETTING
It doesn't get any more obvious than that.
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