premium charge - how does it work?

I've come across quite a few threads related to 'the premium charge'

What is the premium charge? who pays it and why?

What an A***hole

The leg pullers are out in force I see.

I know enough about the Premium Charge to know that no one knows exactly how it is calculated.  And that includes people at Betfair.  It is possible that it is worked out by a computer algorithm, which may have had many contributors over a long time period, who have each made incremental changes to it. Some of these people could have left Betfair a while back.  It is doubtful whether any one individual really understands all of it.  But this is pure speculation on my part.
I just hope that some one at Betfair can still remember how to switch it off, when the day comes to scrap the charge.

Marksman, several persons on here fully understand it and that includes me.  It is complicated though, but not that difficult if you put some time in it.
  Can't be bothered to explain it in details as it will take to much of my time , but the short version is :
  If you during your life time on Betfair have paid less than roughly 21 - 23 % of your gross profit in commission you will have to pay Premium Charge on your weekly winnings to take your charges paid up to this 21 - 23 % levelk.
  This means that if you are liable for PC and have a winning week with less than 21 - 23 % of that winnings paid in commission, the remaining of this will be taken from your account the following wednesday in order to get your charges paid up to this 21 - 23 %.

Eddie the eagle,
Sorry, I didn't notice the word "roughly" in the rules.
Do you pay PC?

Eddie is right. He is simplifying by using 'roughly', but you can work out exactly how much PC you will pay.
When implied commission was based on the commission paid by people winning off you, this wasn't the case. Now that it's been fixed at 3% you can though.

Betfair use 20 % as the PC threshold, but that is commission generated , not commission paid.  The reason I used roughly 21 - 23 % is that I think more than 95 % of those paying PC on a regular basis will have to pay somewher between those 21 - 23 % in order to get to 20 % commission generated.
   I paid my fair share(and more than that) and more than most others who have paid it during an exceptional good run during the last half of 2009, but I'm no longer paying it and will probably never have to pay it again due to heavy losses I've incurred during 2010.

Sorry to hear about your losses, Eddie.  I exaggerated a bit before.  But I never really know where I am with the implied commission.  Basically I am a gambler, not a mathematician, and the rules look bizarre to me.  They should just be glad that I am here and paying commission.  Its none of their business, how much I win.  There not the government, so what right have they to tax me.

They think they have a right to charge you a fair price for the
facility you use. It is their facility after all, and you are
free to go elsewhere.

WELL SAID MARSKMAN.

Yes, well said, and it may be none of their business how much you
win, but it is their business to decide how much you pay for their
facility.

Does the 250 Markets Rule still apply

20 percent is not a fair price

You'll never have to worry about it Avocado.

EVER.

Lifetime Profile
Markets         235    
           
Gross PL     £     35,370.26    
           
Commission Generated     £     7,218.86     +
Other Charges     £     3.37     +
Premium Charges (exc. last week)     £     0.00     =
Total Charges     £     7,222.23    
           
Total Charges     %     20.42    
Max possible Premium Charge     £     0.00    

fvck off selkirk you cvnt

Marksman, I totally agree with your thoughts on this.
  The implied commission thing used to be impossible to calculate, but it's easy now.
  Betfair use 3 % for all losing markets now, so in order to find your commission generated you just have to calculate 3 % of all your losing markets, add that together with your commission paid and then divide that number by 2.

at the end of the day winning gamblers are the trawlermen  ,the losing punters are the fish stocks .

if supplies dwindle there will be nothing left to fish .

if there was no premium charge could we rely on winning punters sticking to a quota ?

probably no is the answer

It would help if betfair didn't allow certain players to use dynamite when fishing.

I'll be off to BetQuack as soon as the liquidity improves.

How does the Premium Charge stop the fish stock from being overfished?

Have I missed something?

Probably





The theory is that the premium charge money is part spend on adverts in order to replenish stocks ,that's what we were told anyway in a round about way .
Whether there are more adverts now than previous to Oct 2008 is debatable though.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think the PC was a very good business decision. Of course I'm not for it, as it negatively affects me, and I have to divert resources to get around it.

There's no way Betfair could have pulled it off if they had a serious competitor though. As it stands, Betfair was miles ahead of the competition before PC, and are still way ahead now, though not by the same margin (I've gone from having 99% of betting funds on Betfair to 90% and that will go down further in line with Betfair's future price increases).

I wouldn't buy into the justifications Betfair put behind it though, it's an excercise in increasing profits pure and simple. The rest is complete bullplop as far as I'm concerned.

The theory is that the premium charge money is part spend on adverts in order to replenish stocks ,that's what we were told anyway in a round about way .
Whether there are more adverts now than previous to Oct 2008 is debatable though.


Do you believe everything you're told?
I presume you still believe in Santa Claus as well.

Indeed Investor, there is no competition and any company would have implemented it. This is the problem with a MONOPOLY.


We are better  to blame BFs cometitors, they're effin clueless  .


Get on massive , no i don't ,and i don't believe in santa either  ...but IF more money has been spend on advertising i am all for paying the charge ,pure and simple .
If i was running an enterprise, i would put 10% atleast of my budget towards bringing in custom .

If I can make enough money from my betting on here I will buy BetQuack and revolutionise it.

Avocado, you have such a commendable attitude.  One of the few true philanthropists on here.

yes, you're right, i'm a great man

what if one plays in 100 markets per month and is a £200 per week winner ?

You pay an extra £200 and she licks the **** of your ass..nice and clean.

Is there seriously a single person who bought the betfair crap about using the money for advertising? You would have to be incredibly stupid to fall for that one.

kenilworth sticking up for betfair, what a shock. Suppose there was a company who supplied 90% of electricity, or water, or bread, or internet access, and they massively increased their fees, would he still come up with garbage like "they have the right to charge a fair price for their product" yeah ok. Defending the monopoly that is betfair and his waffly mate kevin "no bet" pullein is what he does best. Probably a betfair employee.

Has anyone challenged the PC on the basis BF is abusing its monopoly position in the market?

Sounds like the kind of thing regulators would be quite keen on.

Small question on PC

Say an account is already paying PC (+250 markets & no allowance left) on winning weeks and for the sake of argument is up lifetime 10k

That account wins 500€ one week with no losses and is charged around 80€ PC

That account then loses 500€ the next week with no wins and isn't charged anything

Now that account wins 500€ again next week with no losses, is PC due again or do the losses from the previous week offset this?

The last week's losses offset it so no PC payment is taken.

Everyone on here no matter how efficient they are with their betting is paying Betfair at least 21.5% of their profits.

look on the premium charge portal

they just want their 20 percent

well more as they use the gross figure

Remember though, that going into week 3 the account is 10k in profit.

Week 2 losses still offset this right?

Yes, they would normally be offset, but there are two exceptions where they would not and they are :
1 : If your account was below 20 % commission generated when you reached the 250 market barrier , your losses will not be offset until you reach that 20 %.
2 : If you had a "big win" exemption and have kept on winning since, enough to make your "big win" non exempt anymore, again losses will not be offset until you reach that 20 %.

Thanks for your kind replies guise

appreciated

This is not necessarily true.  I had a really bad losing week, when Sea The Stars won the Arc.  I lost £1604.  The next week, I pulled myself together and made £5 gross (just on one race).  I had to pay PC on those winnings.  I didn't see any sign of an offset.

^
How is that possible?

Marksman, if that's the case it must have been because of one of the scenarios I've described in my 12.23 post.

premium charge - how does it work?

If I remember its summat like , think of a number, double it, multiply it by the number of bets you have a day, divide by the number of winners, take away the number you first thought of and multiply by 3.......and if it comes to less than 20, think of another number.

I think the basic premise of it is that betfair are greedy cvnts and take money out of your account if you win, something like that

Eddie, I was still below the 20% threshold, so I did come into category 1.  I misread your post.

Avocado massaging his figures to make it look like he's a winning punter.

I'm a winner on here but overall I'm down

er

er indeed.

whats the er about?

down er

?

it can happen like with me if you are a long way up for the first 250 markets you can lose a lot,  then win a little the next week and pay PC charge on it cuz you havnt made up to 20 % yet

You're one of life's losers, Avocado.

Betfair felt a tad sorry for the purple site and decided to give them some extra buisness...

not really selkirk but think what u like

Ok.

you're forgiven

are all the PC players only paying 2% commision
surely nobody pays it in 5% ???

What on earth are you on about, the vast majority who pay it are on 5% or near to it. If you are on 2 it's extremely easy to avoid.

turtleshead is correct in his first statement and I don't think anyone on 2% can keep up the strike rate needed to pay PC in the long run, but it's certainly possible to hit both 2 % and pay PC for a short while when on a good run.
   I don't think he is correct in his statement about avoiding the charge for 2 %'s though.

Eddie,

It's correct that it's easier to avoid on a low commission rate. A sub 3% commission payer profits from otherwise breakeven strategies. A PC payer paying 3%+ commission suffers as a result of employing the same strategy (ignoring the beneficial effects of accumulation of commission points).

2% commission payer                                   
Win markets (£)    Lose Markets (£)GP    CommPay    CommGen    PC    NET    Charges paid (%)
100,000    50,000            50,000    2,000    1,750    8,250    39,750    20.5
110,000    60,000            50,000    2,200    2,000    8,000    39,600    20.4
200,000    150,000            50,000    4,000    4,250    5,750    40,250    19.5
                                   
5% commission payer                                   
Win markets (£)    Lose Markets (£)GP    CommPay    CommGen    PC    NET    Charges paid (%)
100    50            50    5.00    3.25    6.75    38.25    23.50
110    60            50    5.50    3.65    6.35    38.15    23.70
200    150            50    10.00    7.25    2.75    36.25    25.50

Sorry for the crappy formatting. When I say 'breakeven strategy' it refers to a breakeven GP, obviously a strategy that breaks even after commission would be beneficial no matter what commission rate you are on.

Investor, to format stuff, just put 2 pipe '|' characters at the start and end of the line and between each field

i.e. pp FIELD 1 pp FIELD 2 pp ( where pp = 2 x | )

FIELD 1

FIELD 2

2% commission payer
Win markets	(£)	Lose Markets (£)GP	CommPay	CommGen	PC	NET	Charges paid (%)
100,000	50,000	50,000	2,000	1,750	8,250	39,750	20.5
110,000	60,000	50,000	2,200	2,000	8,000	39,600	20.4
200,000	150,000	50,000	4,000	4,250	5,750	40,250	19.5

                                   

5% commission payer
Win markets	(£)	Lose Markets (£)GP	CommPay	CommGen	PC	NET	Charges paid (%)
100	50	50	5.00	3.25	6.75	38.25	23.50
110	60	50	5.50	3.65	6.35	|38.15	23.70
200	150	50	10.00	7.25	2.75	36.25	25.50

not sure thats how you wanted it but you get the idea

Hypothetical example here (obviously when you read it)

BF user lays a market for £10 with the intention of winning £100 per day. Some winners amongst those lays but hits his target of £100 every day over a period of 6 months.

Is he liable for the PC?

SelkirkAgain,  I haven't a clue whether he would be liable for PC or not.  And I bet if you rang up the Betfair help desk, they wouldn't know either.

Marksman, it seems as certain people on here know far more about the PC than BF staff. Shocking state of events.

Thanks Escapee!

It's:

Win markets(£)

Lose Markets(£) GP

CommPay

CommGen

PC

NET

Charges paid (%)

actually:

Win markets(£)

Lose Markets(£)

GP

CommPay

CommGen

PC

NET

Charges paid (%)