PREMIUM CHARGE QUESTION..

If you have a high strike rate chances are you'll pay it.

I use no bots no software no in running no time advantage,yet once your in the trap its like being a fly in a spides web.

The simple answer is that, given an unusually good run, virtually anyone can pay it.

Livebetter....You seem only new here. My adivice would be to bet carefully and keep under the 250 market rule as long as you can.

ie. Only bet here when your a 100% confident you found a good bet other wise bet elsewhere. Because as soon as you reach the Premiun Charge area like somebody else says its like a spider web and its very hard to ever get back out of it.

And lets face it its rare that you can pay a 23% COMMISSION off a winning bet and still come out with more than if you had done it with the bookies.....Good luck with it.....Cheers

Can you tell a little bit more about the 250 market rule?

One more thing. Is it possible that a (long term) winning account can turn into a losing account (in the long run)  due to the premium charge? Or will a winning account always be a winning account, only less winning?

Let's take an example: If you win 1000 and lose 900 every other week you have a winning account in the long run. If Betfair charge you 20 % every winning week, you win 800 and lose 900 every other week. Your winning account has turned into a losing account. Can this happen?

You could win £100k over the first half of the year and pay £10k say in premium charges.  Then over the rest of the year lose £100k.  So without the PC you'd be level for the year, but with the PC you'd be £10k down.

Ask Chris Rodgers about this, he basically did that I believe.

Even the Inland Revenue give rebates.

I recently had a HUGE winning streak, lasting about 3 weeks. I doubled my Betfair Bank (not my total bank), from around £7000 to around £14.000. I heard nothing from Betfair about any PC. (Two weeks after that I lost all the winnings).

Maybe it's because I was below the 250 market rule. But what is exactly the 250 market rule? Can somebody explain it?

The 250 market rule means that you don't pay any PC no matter the strike rate while your lifetime number of markets played on Betfair is under 250.

You can check your PC stats at

https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html

that is:
https://account.betfair.com/
regpay-myaccount/
premiumcharge/
summary.html

I guess that means 250 DIFFERENT markets. Feks match odds is one market. over 2,5 goals is one market. Under 2,5 goals is one market. Over 4,5 goals is one market. Next goal is one market. And so on.

Or is it 250 as a total no matter if you play 250 times at the same market? Any serious player will to that in a short time..

It should be quite unlikely that you exceed 250 different markets if you for example stick to only fotball betting?

Your link did not work by the way.

This is the message I get;

Your account has not incurred Premium Charges. If you become eligible to incur Premium Charges in the future, we will contact you before any charges are paid. If you require any further assistance, please contact premiumcharge@betfair.com.

No stats. I have no idea if I'm close. Maybe they don't want us to know. I'll try to mail them.

The message you received means that you have paid over 50% of your gross profit in charges, so you're not even close to paying any PC.

You can email BF and they will send you your lifetime spreadsheet.

I just called Betfair. I was told that once you reach 250 bets as a total, no matter if you're betting for example only on match odds on fotball, you're above the 250 market rule. How can you then avoid exceeding the 250 market rule? Stop playing forever?

You can't avoid it since you can't reduce it. The number just keeps rising. My number of total markets is 19213.

I suspect you don't have to worry about PC because the message you receive means that you're not even close to paying any PC and they don't want you to get upset when you see what percentage of your profits you pay in charges. (If your account is in profit in the first place.)

You will find that each market in football terms is each market for each game.250 markets will last a very short time. I have on my latest lifetime profile 59,001 markets.

Maybe. My first thought is that this message is a standard message that everybody get, until the they get the call..

Live better, sounds like you didnt win enough in the first place .

You would have had to win 8k or more from scratch depending on your history

No. During the time my percentage was around 50%, in weeks when it fell below 50% I would see exact numbers and in weeks it surged above 50% I would see the aforementioned message.

I never expoected to be subject to the premium charge today. But I have a winning account, and expect to win more in the future.

How much is 8k?

8k lifetime profit .

have you achieved that yet ? if yes, then you will be in the firing line

But how much is 8k? I'm Norwegian. 8k is meaningless in Norwegian.

Is it 8000, 80.000, 800.000 or what?

So £8000 is all they accept before you're in the firing line. Not much. If you cannot win that much even in a year there's no point wasting time at Betfair..

Just to clearify, 8 k is not meaningless in Norwegian.  The use of k instead of a thousand has actually become common in Norway too.
   Livebetter, I'm Norwegian too and can explain the PC to you in details and in Norwegian if you want me to.
  Just to add, few outright betters/gamblers will have to pay the charge.  It's more common to pay it for traders or people who always even out there positions during an event.

Bare for å klargjøre, 8 k er ikke meningsløst på norsk. Bruk av K i stedet for tusen faktisk har blitt vanlig i Norge også.
   Livebetter, jeg er norsk også og kan forklare PC til deg i detaljer og i norsk hvis du vil jeg skal.
  Bare for å legge til, noen OUTRIGHT betters / spilleavhengige vil måtte betale avgift. Det er mer vanlig å betale den for handelsmenn eller folk som alltid selv der ute stillinger under en begivenhet.

Is Feck ill ?

"Just to add, few outright betters/gamblers will have to pay the charge"

Utter rubbish, high strike rates are all that counts, whether someone greens or reds out during an event makes no difference whatsover.

You don't even need a high strike rate. I had 2 isolated big wins in 2009 (outsiders won the Grand National and St Leger. Take these two races out of the equation and I would have had a losing year. But I was still hit by the PC. Threatening to close my account didn't get me exempted, so I closed it. I still wasn't invited back by Betfair, so I reluctantly came back any way. And still they kept applying the Premium Charge.  I do most of my betting elsewhere now, because it is hard enough to win in the first place, without having up to 22.5% taken off me in charges.

Marksman
When you compare the " net " prices you get on betfair with elsewhere, how much lower are they really ? Is it that uncompetitive  ?
Also, you won't get banned on BF if you're a consistent winner. Isn't that worth something to the equation ?

Marksman, wasn't there an exemption for big wins? Is that gone now too?

The Investor, I had 2 big wins (in what would otherwise have been a losing year).

frames Joined: 11 Jan 02
Replies: 5350 16 Sep 10 17:17   

Is Feck ill ? 

INVESTOR....The problem with the exemption for A big win was they changed it from anything over half any profit you might have made in a year to half in a Lifetime. For guys like me who are now on over 10 years and who never even got a free signing up with Betfair back then. For our customer loyalty for all those years we have just got punished further.

Since it has now made the chance of using the big win exemption 10 times harder ie, (10 years for me) to get than if they had left in based on the 1 year.

Its really a lost cause here now imo, once you end up in Premiun Charge land.
......Cheers

turtleshead, I've learned the hard way that gamblers/position takers very well may get caught in the PC net, but I don't think it's wrong to say that it's much more common to incurre PC among traders or those who always green/red out than it is for traditional gamblers/position takers.
  When I said that few outright bettors/gamblers will have to pay , I meant a very low % of that category and I think it's still low even if you are just talking about long term winners in that category.
  That said, I must stress that I think the PC is a disgrace.

Eddie
If the PC existed when you first came on the exchange, would you still think it was a disgrace or just accept that it was there and try to design your strategies to allow for it ?
Nobody likes extra charges, especially when they're used to having not to pay them, but it happens in all areas of life.
If and when it happens elsewhere, you either ditch the product or service or keep with it.
Same here isn't it ?
Nobody is forced to use BF if they don't think it still offers the best product, all charges notwithstanding.

I'm still a bit confused about the PC. And it seems I'm not the only one. There's not much agreement here on when you're actually supposed to pay the PC.

Normally you pay a charge of 2-5 %. The far majority are closer to 5 % than 2 %. Some pay less than 2 % due to trading and greening/reding up their positions. And actually I can understand that Betfair think it's fair that those bettors pay some extra charge. But 23 % I cannot understand. Why not 2 %?

With an enxtra 23 % charge Betfair are telling you to go to hell. We dont like winners. Winners are actually not welcome at Betfair. It was a joke. With an extra charge of for example 2 % Betfair would have told you. Winners are still welcome, you're welcome, but everyone has to pay a minimum charge of 2 % even though it's possible to pay less.

Correct me if I've misunderstood the whole PC.

I don't think it is possible to pay less than 2%. Everyone is paying commission on winning markets. The Premium Charge is applied to people on all sorts of commission rates, including those on 5% (which is what I am on, because I hardly use Betfair at all nowadays).

I'm also a bit confused about he comission. It says you can be subject to the PC if you over a periode have paid less than 20 % comission on your winnings. Why 20 %? How can you pay 20 % when you're supposed to pay 2-5 %.

What am I missing here?

I think I got it. 20 % comission on your PROFIT vs 2-5 % on your winnings. Winnings will normally be maybe 10 times higher than the profit.

is the great man banned?

wheres annie?

Do **** charge a premium charge guys?  May mover over to them.
Cheers

Nick

i still don't understand about this commission generated part of the charge

however i add it up it comes to more than 20 % in total charges since the charge came into effect .

anyone more clued up than me ?

an example from my sheets shows i have paid 140 pounds in commission on bets ,but it says on my portal i have generated 88 pounds worth of commission

this is PC1 and not 2 btw

You can win a £1million pounds a year and still not pay 1p in premium charges.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!

Coachbuster - you only get credit for half the commission you pay, and they then take your losing bets and calculate the imaginery commission on this and half it (though the commission rate on this is confusing). These are then added together to calculate how much commission you have generated. If you are on 5% you would have generated profit of 2800 and paid 5% which equals 140. This would contribute 70 pounds of commission. The portal shows you have generated 88 pounds of commission. This extra 14 pounds would have been through your losses which would have been around the 560 pound mark (560 times 5% times half to end up with 14 pounds).

This is why the PC is even more unfair than it first appears. To be subject to the PC you must be making more than you are losing. However, you are only getting half the credit for the commission you have paid. If you have no losses during a week you end up paying 22.5%. This is made up of 5% commission (which you only get a 2.5% credit for) and 17.5% premium charge (20% - 2.5%).

Aussie Al, nothing confusing about the imaginery commission on your losing bets. 
  Betfair call it implied commission and is calculated as 3 % on all your losing markets.
  It was a floating % early on, but it's been 3 % on all markets for a while now.
  It is however correct that these 3 % also is halved when they are added to commision generated.

Aussie Al , thanks for that input ,i understand where you are coming from now about losing bets  .

I looked again in detail and it appears to work a little like the working mans  tax credits we have here in the UK
In other words,whatever you contribute in commission , you  pay the residue to bring the bill up to 20 % unless the commission you pay is over 20 to start with  of course , according to my workings.