General Betting
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A few weeks ago I posted asking to see if anybody who uses BetAngel had noticed a change in the market on Match Odds - Football
After using my system for about 2 years, this change happened on Monday 17th Febuary and had a significant affect on how i traded on Betfair - virtually wiping out all the oppurtunties I was ever presented with but i couldnt understand how or why this had happened as it didnt seem possible.
From there i tried several tests to see what would happen when i inserted bets into a market that would have created an opportunity for me
Below is an example of this: -
On the market of Atalanta V Siena -
the odds of Atalanta were 3.4 to back and 3.45 to lay
the odds of Sienna were at 5.9 to back and 9.0 to Lay
the odds of the draw were 1.77 to back and 1.8 to lay
the percentage on the back side read 102.9
the percentage on the lay side read 95.7
I then inserted a back of 2 at 6.0 on Sienna which obviously wasnt available, had this bet become available for somebody else to lay, it would have created a percentage of 101.2 on the lay side
This bet however never became available for somebody to lay, it was just fully matched, I could only assume at the time by somebody or something at Betfair.
I tested this numerous times on different Match odds markets and had the same outcome, any other markets did not react in the same way.
Since then I have been advised from an independant source that on the above date a new system was put in by betfair where in which they are matching bets by laying them off on the other outcomes and this may become apparent across the board on betfair. This seems hard to understand to me for 3 reasons:-
Firstly, in my eyes they are surely preventing Betfair users from seeing the best available price if they are taking a bet that would send the market percentage over/underround and laying it off on the other outcomes
Secondly, does this mean they are still acting as an exchange or are they venturing towards bookmaking territory
Thirdly, If a bet was mistakenly entered into the market at silly odds, lets say a back of 1.06 on a side that were 6/1 to back, how can betfair lay it off on the other sides?
I would like to say that ive managed to speak to someone at betfair myself about this, but after various emails sent to integrity@betfair.com, emails to info@betfair.com and various phone calls to be fobbed off by the betfair customer service team, i havnt.
And if im wrong and infact betfair are not doing anything wrong at all, surely it would have been nice of them to share with its customers a change that would have such a significant effect on such a huge market.
After using my system for about 2 years, this change happened on Monday 17th Febuary and had a significant affect on how i traded on Betfair - virtually wiping out all the oppurtunties I was ever presented with but i couldnt understand how or why this had happened as it didnt seem possible.
From there i tried several tests to see what would happen when i inserted bets into a market that would have created an opportunity for me
Below is an example of this: -
On the market of Atalanta V Siena -
the odds of Atalanta were 3.4 to back and 3.45 to lay
the odds of Sienna were at 5.9 to back and 9.0 to Lay
the odds of the draw were 1.77 to back and 1.8 to lay
the percentage on the back side read 102.9
the percentage on the lay side read 95.7
I then inserted a back of 2 at 6.0 on Sienna which obviously wasnt available, had this bet become available for somebody else to lay, it would have created a percentage of 101.2 on the lay side
This bet however never became available for somebody to lay, it was just fully matched, I could only assume at the time by somebody or something at Betfair.
I tested this numerous times on different Match odds markets and had the same outcome, any other markets did not react in the same way.
Since then I have been advised from an independant source that on the above date a new system was put in by betfair where in which they are matching bets by laying them off on the other outcomes and this may become apparent across the board on betfair. This seems hard to understand to me for 3 reasons:-
Firstly, in my eyes they are surely preventing Betfair users from seeing the best available price if they are taking a bet that would send the market percentage over/underround and laying it off on the other outcomes
Secondly, does this mean they are still acting as an exchange or are they venturing towards bookmaking territory
Thirdly, If a bet was mistakenly entered into the market at silly odds, lets say a back of 1.06 on a side that were 6/1 to back, how can betfair lay it off on the other sides?
I would like to say that ive managed to speak to someone at betfair myself about this, but after various emails sent to integrity@betfair.com, emails to info@betfair.com and various phone calls to be fobbed off by the betfair customer service team, i havnt.
And if im wrong and infact betfair are not doing anything wrong at all, surely it would have been nice of them to share with its customers a change that would have such a significant effect on such a huge market.
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Mmm. That is a little strange.
I'm sure that occurences like this will b*gger up a number of people's betting strategies. One of the most worrying things is the lack of transparency of the market that is implied by the events that you say occured. I think that the transparency of the betting queues is probably one of betfair's less well acknowledged strengths in relation to traditional bookies, and they fiddle about with them at their peril. The alternative of course, is that someone had a bot functioning that laid any bets ordered at certain prices before anyone using traditional methods had a chance to see the 6.0 appear in the lay column. |
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wiljons,
You sought a price, your bet was matched immediately probably by a bot. Excuse me if I don't fully understand the problem, but perhaps you might expand a little on how the above sequence of events is detrimental to your particular trading strategies. |
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Patstap, if Betfair are now matching bets to swallow any overrounds then there's a load of reasons why thats wrong. It's possible bots where monitoring the market but usually you'd see the price hit the market rather than just get matched.
Wouldn't surprise me if Betfair are doing this again as they seem to want to grab every penny they can these days, charging for data , seeding exchange markets, taking multiples etc |
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This is the opposite of what happens on the seeded horse racing markets on the purple exchange. There, you see a price, try to place a back or lay and you are not matched. Instead the odds on offer instantly moves one increment away from your attempted bet. They obviously do this to create an illusion of liquidity, but in reality I have stopped using their horse racing markets because of it.
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Thats exactly what im trying to get across joe, my sources information is coming from betfair, and their idea behind this is that they are making the market more efficient as more bets are being matched, thus i assume meaning more profit for them.
So they are saying their bot is taking any bet which would make the market go over/underround and laying it off against other outcomes, but to me surely that means they are affecting the prices that you see on your screen and even the prices that consumers bots see before they can take advantage of the opportunity. The main problem im having is getting somebody at betfair to talk to me about this. |
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I have noticed this as well, mainly on 2 runner markets tho. backing at 1.2 when 1.2 not there but reverse bet on the lay side is (6 to lay).
To make sure it wasnt just a bot I did it on an ip market and the bet was matched straight away (so a bot couldnt do it) |
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Exactly wiljons , kinda makes a mockery of there player against player and best odds claims if they're making sure the books don't go over 100% - They used to do it in the early days but it slowed the sytem down so much that's why I guess they're trying it out on the two runner markets for now!!
Maybe all these data restrictions will allow them to bring it in on the racing and other markets without any noticable slowdown :( |
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only skimmed through what you have written but this could have major implications for trading could it not?
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Umbo - What market were you on if you dont mind me asking?
Did you notice if your bet was taken by laying at 6.0? like did money disappear from there? I forgot to add that I only bet in play so this is where i dont understand when people are mentioning a bot that isnt betfairs could be to do with it because the bet is matched straight away as you say Joe - Surely then it would go against their Terms and Conditions? |
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Leaving BetFair out of the equation for a moment. Let's assume there is a consumer bot monitoring a particular market and pouncing everytime the lay market goes overround or vice versa. Lets also assume that it expends 20 grand on the market in order to generate a very small % return. Is this activity an advantage or a disadvantage to the market as a whole ie would the non traders like to see the botmeisters strangled at birth?
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Yep they are definitely matching the overrounds, I saw it today on the Murray Davy match, I placed a back bet on Murray at 3 when it wasn't available and within the 5 sec delay 1.48 was available to lay on Davy, my bet was instantly matched even tho nothing appeared to lay Murray at 3.
Betfair must be pocketing the difference because I was matched at 3 not the equivalent of laying Davy at 1.48. |
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lets hope they do it in the first goalscorer markets!!!!
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Patstap, don't think anyone is bothered about users bots ;) making pennies just if betfair are stealing the pennies first. You've got to remember betfair have a huge advantage over users as they host the site and see any data first, i guess that's why wiljons assumed it was betfair as the bet never displayed on screen which it would do if it was taken by another user. There was talk a while back about them doing this on the two runner outcomes.
Wiljons I'm sure their t&c covers them for almost anything they want and they'd happily change it if it doesn't |
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But surely that calls for questions on them calling themselves an exchange? as if they are manipulating bets like that they are in effect bookmaking?
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and let me guess teapot, you were matched at the exact price you asked for, matched for the exact amount and there was not a penny left laying at that price?
almost as if someone/something behind the scenes saw the bet coming and without having to show their hand so to speak took the bet |
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Patience people. I'm sure bot will come along and tell us we're all wrong about this, as he usually does when people have been misinformed. If not, can't wait... :O
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This is correct as I have spoken to Betfair already and they have confirmed this. It's a new matching engine and not an end user or Betfair stealing pennies. If a bet is unmatched then they are squaring it off on other unmatched bets.
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so in plain english betfair are doing what exactly?
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Oh well thats fine then Scripophilist, I'm sure Betfair,being a betting exchange and not acting as a bookie, will be matching it against the price available and not snapping up any overrounds before other users can see them and pocketing the difference.
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plain english for a poor old technophobe like me is what i mean
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Scripophilist. 06 Mar 18:03
This is correct as I have spoken to Betfair already and they have confirmed this. It's a new matching engine and not an end user or Betfair stealing pennies. If a bet is unmatched then they are squaring it off on other unmatched bets How did you manage to get them to talk to you about this? |
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If Scripo is right then 2 questions arise
1) What is this exact mechanism ? 2) Did betfair receive approval from the GC ? It also seems to me that betfair would be better off informing their customers what it is they are doing, just so we don't have to make guesses and be accused of spreading lies later on. |
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Was the Betfair matcher not for use just at Suspension across markets? Just the same as BFSp
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so a terminator-style matching engine matched wiljons 2 ??
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Whether Betfair are active in the markets are not, I think most users would prefer the pennies to go into Betfair coffers rather than some snotty nosed geek with bad breath.
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if it is doing what I think it is doing it is and excellent initiative in my opinion...
still they should make people aware of it and not covertly add it to the matching algorythm |
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what is it doing exactly?
please! |
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medemi
I doubt betfair are participating in the bet - just macthing it a different way. biggest implication might be for owners packing a horse to beat thier own, now they are actually laying thier own LOL |
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ok, simple question:
who matched wiljons' bet ?? end-user, end-user bot, betfair, betfair bot or cyborg? |
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Magician,
I'm not that bright ;) Someone will have to explain to me precisely what it is betfair are doing before I can make up my mind as to whether I agree or not. |
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am i speaking chinese?
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中文论坛
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Alex the old wrinkled retainer 06 Mar 14:56
It is not betfairs bot, I am fairly sure of that. I have two theories on who it is. Neither of which I will outline here. Scripophilist. 06 Mar 18:03 This is correct as I have spoken to Betfair already and they have confirmed this. The Magician (1) 06 Mar 18:18 if it is doing what I think it is doing it is and excellent initiative in my opinion. What's the big secret? |
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i cant see why anyone would be bothered about this other than people who have bots that hoover up the overround books. It is a rare situation anyway in a non in-play market.
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In the old days if you made a rick you'd be able to cancel before the bots ate it, looks like those days are now gone. I guess betfair won't bother allowing us the privaleage of any in running delays to correct either. Just snap it off the screen as soon as they see a possible profit for them.
I might have agreed with some of the reasoning on the two runner markets if they made the match at 100% but they're won't be any profit in that for them , they coud also set two runner markets as a favourite win/lose market avoiding the need for their matching bot but again that'd take away any possible profits and be too obvious a** Maybe bot'll come along and make it all better |
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Just to be clear I havnt once suggested that Betfair are trying to make a profit from this or get involved in taking bets, but i dont understand how this can be good for the consumer if these odds are never allowed to be seen
For example i have just put a bet of 2 on the Anderlecht v Bayern Munchen To Qualify Anderlecht are currently 12 to back 48 to lay Muncich are currently 1.08 to back 1.09 to lay this creates 100.9 and 93.8 % My back of 2 at 12.5 cause the percentage on the lay side to go to 100.6 There is obviously no new matching system in place on this market because my bet is not immediatly matched by betfair, but surely as im offering 12.5 for someone to lay instead of the current 48.0 then im offering someone good value and betfair are stopping this |
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i cant see why anyone would be bothered about this
in wiljons initial example his 2 didn't appear on the screen, so someone/thing, somewhere knew that bet was coming how can that be? |
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mr *****if you're taking the bets you obviously see it first and have the option to match it or pass it on to the site for all to see.
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Scrip
will they pass on best execution, or will they nick the spread, between request and execution price |