whos idea is decimal odds trash

Going round in circles a bit here


Would Sandown, sick or yo yo care to give us their top 5 changes ( i dont want the full 600 better suggestions) , to improve the racegoers experience/ to improve attendance?

Please ensure they are all of a cost benefit/ budgetary nature we cant afford Lady Gaga at every meeting.

i dont mind punters have 2quid bets,that my minimum bet some of the bookies even take 1 pound e/w, pointless in my view but hey each to their own.as you say moe important issues are cost of entry(outrageous in my view) catering GOODWOOD charge about 12 quid for burger *****and a drink. enuff seating , wheelchair access, some even charge for carparks , naturally goodwood falls into that group.maybe there should be an indoor area for bookies when the weathers poor so punters can stay dry if they wanna bet on the book.goodwood isproof of what goes wrong when people in charge start changging things for the worse. a once well attended course is now total ghost town. tracks like fontwell and towcester are forward looking and use common sense in their approach.

Cheap entrance, cheap grub, free parking, i hope Goodwood can afford all these luxuries, it sounds expensive??? I guess you think their pricing structure is not set at a optimal level,you think by decreasing all the prices the attendance will go up you sell more therefore improving the profits?? debateable at best??

You guys will definately benefit from these suggestions NO QUESTION, but the racetrack as a viable business, not so sure.

Basically the decimal odds system is being introduced to entice young people to the races.
In imperial days, everyone was taught fractions and could do them in their heads without calculators, so going to the races, they knew exactly what they got.
These days fractions are taught, but mostly it's all decimal with calculators, so a young racegoer wouldn't have a clue what the odds are.
Who is going to replace the old timers with sharp fraction minds, the young decimal punter.
Bookie you're target market is evapourating, I would think you would be the first in the queue with your decimal odds and a brand new LED display and ticket printer.
First in gets the chocolates.
As in any business, nobody likes change, especially if you're used to a system that you know backwards, something new is like a pain in the arse, but you must embrace it or be left behind.
The drive is to increase attendances and I don't think many newbies under 30 would have a clue about fractional odds.

I was a newbie 30 years ago, and I backed a horse that was 50/1, the bookie and bagman laughed at me.
I never bet with that bookie again, I made sure I visibly bet with the fellow next to him.
After 5 years, that first bookie actually spoke to me and said "geez you hold a grudge don't you", I said "If I held a grudge, I'd actually bet with you" and my new bookie**ed himself laughing at the rude bookie. Then stopped and said "Hey! what have you got against me?"

And we all laughed.

decimal odds will entice under 30 year olds to go racing.

lets go racing they do decimal odds. imbeleivable

Ronaldhino

Fair question but any answer needs more than one thread to itself.I do agree hwoever that the economics of running courses is a big issue.

I do believe that those on the "supply" side of the debate - the trainers, jockeys, breeders, owners, bookmakers and perhaps the courses themselves , get too much say in things (eg prizemoney,breeding issues), as against the "demand" side i.e racegoers and punters, and the media reflects that.

The starting point for any discussion needs to focus on the sporting and general publics declining level of interest in horseracing as such as well as the betting publics growing interest in alternative betting outlets.

Sorry to avoid your question directly. However, I stick to my earlier comments regarding the lack of importance of the decimal odds issue.

sickoflayinwinners - your arguments just doesn't stand up I'm afraid and you simply come across as a bitter bookie unwilling to change. This is a chance to change things for the better, and bring us into line with the rest of the world (except America and their even worse form of odds).

Fractional odds are a barrier to people that do not understand betting. I've seen evidence of that numerous times over the years.

They are trying to attract more punters, so its perfectly natural they'd take this opportunity to move to decimal odds and hopefully make other changes to make racing more attractive. I doubt they'll do anything to remove the brown envelope problem, but that's another story.

Like a market-stall holder or shop owner who refuses to use kilograms or grams you want to cling on fractional odds for no valid reason. The feel of race days won't change, I suggest you just accept that.

decimal odds are a barrier to 99% of racegoers.

How do I know, I dont just guessing like you

The authorities won't be satisfied until they make horse racing as bland as motor sport. How many people will come racing due to decimalistaion? Hardly any. If racecourses started offering affordable entrance fees, a free race card, edible food, and plenty of bar staff that would encourage families / punters, not this rubbish.

cj , dont be sensible

Seems the punters blame the bookies, the bookies blame the courses, the courses blame the owners and the owners don't give a monkeys.

I don't for a second expect a load of punters to start charging through the gates just because of decimal odds, but I simply thing its a good time to make the change and start in the right direction.

There's plenty more they could do, but at least they're trying.

it makes me laugh that people think affordable entry fees, free card and nice food are all that is needed to make racing attractive. You must think people are very stupid if thats the case. The very nature of racing needs to change if you want to get youngsters interested. The sport needs a revamp and if anything the betting angle should be downplayed. Look at the way Darts has been successfully marketed. Theyve created new events, made things more entertaining. People go and watch other sports because they are genuinely interested in what happens. Horse Racing is just an excuse to bet and a poor one at that.

As someone who stopped betting horses (mostly) a long time ago , the main reason for not caring the vast majority of the time is that nearly none of the races mean anything.... or if they do we're not told about it.

You just don't get a darts meeting (maybe barring premier league) where the players turn up, play 6 random matches for no reason and go home again.

For me, that's the biggest problem of all for 90-95% of the year and 99% of the meetings

towcesters free entry has been a total success. the puters turn up, unlike most trcka where only half or less pitches are used , the bookies turn up. the track gets a full compliment of bookies expences.they put a few pennies on a pint of beer and that covers the lost revenue from entrance fees.when the executive at goodwood were asked why the price of entry had gone up yey again the response was, less people are coming since our last increase so weve put it up again to compensate.lololol.they have a goodwood oganic burger bar that charges about 8quid for burger n*****when myself and my clerk enter the course we have a bet on how many wil be huddled together waiting to pay this 8 quid, i have nonw and one , he has two or more , ive yet to do my money on that bet. this is made even daft by the fact they have at least 5staff tyrying to sell the said burgers.at brightonpunters can buy bangers n mash, cottage pie and chilli n rice , all about a 5ver each. all very palatable and the tw3o or threestaff are polite and capable. godood could learn from this.goodwoods answer to everything is charge more and more.

goodwood often describe fontwell as their sister course.to be truthful fonters is run in such a far superior way its astounding.several tracks are trying many things to get people to attend their course but of coursejust reducing the cvost of entry isnt the answer to every thing.ive recently worked at some northern racecourses and they seem far better attendedthan the southern ones. they offer better value to the customer .point to point meetings are still well attended and not only are there no elecic boards used by bookies most still use book/ledger system.yes an d incredibly fractions and not decimal oddsare displayed.,the difference is that the point to point meetings have many other things going on for the family. and oddly enuff they charge about a 5ver to get in or 25 per vehicle including up to 5 pasengers.those of you who think decimal odds will improve attendances should take in a point to point meeting and you may just change your mind.

Why is racing concerning itself with this issue when its between bookmakers and their customers to decide. If the big bookies think that they will get more people to bet (including newbies) in their shops/on phones, then I'm sure that's what they will do. (Do other sports bet in decimals?)

Betfair have been around nearly 10 years with their decimal odds and still big bookies haven't followed suit. Until they do, leave things as they are on-course.

Each to their own knitting I say and bookmakers understand betting more than raceing people do, that's for sure.

PS
I'm not sure racing people even understand their own industry, let alone someone elses.

yoyo 07 Jan 13:34


not if you believe punters dont understand fractions and will go to decimalised tote.

the tote have displayed decimal prices for ages, anyone noticed the massive move to them, so good there trying to get out of it

Most of the new punters don't understand fractions and nowadays are more comfortable with decimals. Whats wrong with 1.55, 1.60, 1.65, 1.70, 1.75, 1.80, 1.85, 1.90, 1.95 for odds on chances instead of 8/15, 4/7, 8/13, 4/6, 8/11, 4/5, 10/11 ? If you really prefer the latter please explain why.

horse racing dying on it's A*** long term and still being murdured from within judging by this.

I have no problem with fractional odds as it's what I was brought up on - and like Lori have, due to nature of markets, got used to all forms - but why this isn't a shoe in as to good sense for helping the average/new punter I really can't imagine.

kenil, where do you get your stats? punters dont understand fractions, they will go to the tote.

even tracks like Royal Ascot where I do business with 2000 punters each day, mostly novice punters, nobodys ever asked why I dont display computerised odds.

Know why. they all understand fractions.

what research have you used

Personally as an ordinary punter the main points that would make me go racing are:

1) Entrance price, if you are going to go with a group of friends of which half are probably not gamblers but want a small punt on each race (eg £2 or £3's) then the do not want to spend the equivalent of half their betting money getting in. I like a punt as do a few of my mates, but we prefer to go with the other halves who do not want to pay £10 - £15 to go somewhere that "is not there cup of tea"
2) Good service, with 30 minutes between races you want to be able to pick up your winnings ;-), put on your bet and be able to get a drink, not queue up for the whole 30 minutes to get a drink because there are only 2 staff on.
3) reasonable priced food and drink, you wnat them but not to eat into your gambling money.

4) Not to be screwed with 1/6th the odds on eachway bets on 12 runner handicaps!!

5) Decimal pricing is not an issue for me, but I can see how it would benifit newcomers when punting for the first time, my missus would understand alot more 3.0 means you get back £3 if you bet £1, and surely these are the people that you need returning to bring attendances up, the die hard punters would bet if you put it in heiroglyphics!!

6) other activities for non punters, Take the Derby this year, no funfair for the first time in over 100 years to make way for a car park for the corporates, the same people who will only go once a year. Have a few side shows to keep the WAGs happy and you have a nice earner there too.

Just my humble opinion, hope this helps from an occasional attendee.

there we have it from excuse the pun "the horses mouth" the above poster is thekinda person we are talking about i.e occassional racegoer. hes not bothered about decimal odds ,he wants reasonably priced entrance and decent faccilities, weve added maybe some family sideshows and thats the best we can do.

yoyo, Royal Ascot ? Where they come up and ask for a £5ew on a 6/4 shot and offer you a fiver? Ask Barry Dennis about Ascot. We are talking about betting on horses at the races, not Royal Ascot. That's completely different. and has nothing to with betting. lol.

Robin, you sound like you don't even like horse racing calling it a poor excuse for gambling. You're wrong, end of, and the Towcester model proves it.

Compare Towcester with Wawick, a few miles apart but similar fayre on offer, one £18 entrance, one free...giving the choice which fixture would you take the family too?

...and for Big Mac to claim that the racing public are put off by racings quirkiness, that's a bit rich from someone who's fame stems from being a career eccentric.

the towcester model proves if you make something free then yes people will attend. Not exactly a great advert for racing though is it - the only way they can get people through the doors is by not charging! Its probably not particularly commerically viable either otherwise every other racecourse would have adopted it.

Of course Towcester is an extreme model, but simple economics of price and demand tells you that even a small increase will encourage race goers. Larger attendances, means increased revenue for bookmakers, bars, eateries. Courses need to stop using entrance fees as their sole source of income.

Racing is as good a day out as there is, but the general public are increasingly looking for value for money, which racing isn't offering.

On New Years day at Cheltenham, tatts was £25 to get in if you indeed could, there was 1 cash til at a main entrance, one for cardsl, and at least 2 thousand people were queueing outside. Inside, every bar had endless queues, each food stand had long queues, and it was impossible to sit down anywhere without another charge. How many of those once or twice a year punters will go back next new year?

Here's the solution to the crisis that is hitting the On-Course Game

1)...Over priced admission.

2)...Over priced food stalls

3)...Some on-course books,taking the p1ss with 1/6th or even 1/8th of odds

4)...Area's for book's + punters when the weather is not to pleasant

5)...l think some of the prices do need adjusting..ie: get rid of things ending in 4 + 8,all prices being something to 5 if odds against.ie: 11/5 instead 9/4,and if odds on something to 10,ie: 9/10 instead 10/11.+ 7/10 instead of 8/11 etc

6)...l suppose the reason admission + food is so expensive could be the dreaded business tax the greedy government inflict on businesses these days,so if the courses charge the food stalls over the odds ,only one thing is going to happen,the expense is going to be pass on to the punter

7).. Less racing..to many like for like meetings,better race meeting planningie:,dont have sandown +lingfield racing on the same day,stupid dont you think.Dont worry what the so-called big 3 say,they rather take bets on cartoon racing,and the dreaded F.O.B.Ts

Oh l forgot...........get rid of the simpleton who thought up the idea of decimal odds ,as JimRoyle would say 2.2 my @rse

"I like the racing. I like the majesty of the animals doing what they're bred to do.
I just can't be arsed with all the uppity **e that goes with attending the courses."

Unfortunately that (misplaced) opinion is fairly common among people I talk to.

However the main meetings throughout the year don't do much to dispell the myth that its a toffs sport and not for the great unwashed (unless they are happy to be segregated and looked down on).

This is to the detriment of the bread and butter meetings.

Inability to change only enforces this view.

There are 10 sorts of people who understand Binaries. Those who do and those who don't.

The problem I'm afraid is the decline in education. Everyone should be taught decimals and fractions.
What next? Shall I cut this pie into quarters or 0.25's ffs!!

As regards admission to racecourses - Towcester seem to be doing ok.

decimals are the way of the future as I see it. What is the point in fractions? Am I missing something or is it because some people are just attatched to it? How long will it take to work out an accumulator bet that is in fractions compared to decimals?

The racing for change people seem to think that 'dumbing-down' is the way forward. Easier to understand odds, easier to understand terms. One of the best things about racing (and gambling on) is the depth of the sport and that you can study it for a lifetime and keep learning new things about it. If you can hook people to take a look at the sport first of all - hold them with some characters - then the depth and nuances and strange fractions will keep people coming back for years.

I agree with someone else on here who said that RFC need to concentrate on RACING. Organise some knock-out competitions or a league or something. Then promote characters in the game - horses and jocks (discourage retiring 3yr old champions on the flat).

The sport doesn't need massive change - it just needs to promote it's best aspects

The racing for change people seem to think that 'dumbing-down' is the way forward. Easier to understand odds, easier to understand terms. One of the best things about racing (and gambling on) is the depth of the sport and that you can study it for a lifetime and keep learning new things about it. If you can hook people to take a look at the sport first of all - hold them with some characters - then the depth and nuances and strange fractions will keep people coming back for years.

I agree with someone else on here who said that RFC need to concentrate on RACING. Organise some knock-out competitions or a league or something. Then promote characters in the game - horses and jocks (discourage retiring 3yr old champions on the flat).

The sport doesn't need massive change - it just needs to promote it's best aspects

Got to admit how many under 35's ask for 100/16 or 100/12, very few id say. Its all the old timers

you would get more people to bet in decimals. get 2 complete novices
Show person 1 how to work out a bet at fractional odds,
Show person 2 how to work out at decimal odds
ask person 1 how to settle you a different bet at fractional odds
ask person 2 to settle you a different bet at decimal odds

Id be very surprised if person 1 did as well as person 2 on fist attempts

no novice get something like £10@8/13 unless they are sharpish at maths, but decimals simples

A pound at 1.55 doesn't have to be worked out,
a pound at 4/7 does. It's not a argument.

Even someone "sharpish" at maths probably wouldn't be able to divide by 13 easily and regularly. Whether the average person would be able to multiply non multiples of 10 by 1.62 is probably just as debatable.

REPORTED^ 08 Jan 02:12
Got to admit how many under 35's ask for 100/16 or 100/12, very few id say. Its all the old timers

I ALWAYS ask for the bits

What the bookmakers expect punters to do today, is probably what they couldn't face doing themselves in 1971, that is converting. They, as a group, didn't want to work out the decimal equivelent to the archaic prices they work to, especially the odds on chances. All they had to do with them was reverse the odds against prices, I've even seen 40/85 on the occasional board, get your head round that !! Even at the moment bookmakers use 2/5, and 4/5 but not 3/5. They also use 6/5, but not 7/5, 8/5 or 9/5. Why? Because they dont want to. Perhaps some of them don't know which is biggest 13/8 or 8/5.

Pleasegivemeanailedontip 07 Jan 23:52
The racing for change people seem to think that 'dumbing-down' is the way forward. Easier to understand odds, easier to understand terms.

But it is the way forward - its the only way forward. The problem is, IMO, that as betfair and exchange business gets bigger and bigger, without the dumb on-course bookmaking has no future. As soon as you realise the simple fact that 99% of racecourse bookmakers these days are just middlemanning, and offering you 5/2 when 11/4 is available in volume, you might well be inclined not to bet with them. The "mystique" around being a bookmaker is vanishing rapidly. The decimal odds system will just make it more transparent that they are simply taking the current market price and shaving off a margin, and hedging as and where it suits them as they please (in the vast majority of cases)

The sport doesn't need massive change - it just needs to promote it's best aspects

But the problem is, what do you promote? That the game is riddled with corruption? That without hundreds of murky betting practices that go on each day, the game wouldn't even exist in anywhere near its current form?

Are we just guessing the Racing for Change is proposing the betfair system. Every newspaper I have read say that they are simply decimalising the fractional odds e.g 5/2 changes to 2.5/1. This messes up the suggestion that they are bringing bookmakers in line with the Tote and the Exchanges. This should not be a big problem for the on-course bookmakers. My local newspaper has told me that they just used the information on Racing for Changes press release. The Daily Mail has used exactly the same example.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-1240605/Racing-makes-decimal-point-traditional-betting-faces-chop.html?ITO=1490

Has anyone got any information directly from Racing for Change?

would be to simple for them to use a recognised format

The Times and The Guardian online have it as the betfair system

http://times.cluster.newsint.co.uk/tol/sport/racing/article6975963.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jan/05/betting-decimal-odds-racing-for-change

This claims to be a copy of the initial release and they only mention "decimal" with no examples that I can see on a quick scan through. To me Decimal is the European (betfair ) system , but anything's possible of course.

http://www.ors-racing.co.uk/RacingForChange1.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/racing/bookies-odds-make-way-for-decimalised-age-1858700.html

Between 2-1 and 3-1, traditional starting prices will tend to be returned only in fractions of 9-4, 5-2 or 11-4. Decimal returns would express these as 2.25-1, 2.5-1 and 2.75-1 but would potentially offer many shades in between.

McCririck predicts that bookmakers will slow down any easing in the odds as a result.

Whether or not fractional odds is a barrier to young people going racing is easily answered through proper market research using a large sample of people.

On a sample of 2 people who I know in depth - my own children who are now in their 30's - and who have been exposed to their father's passion for horse racing all their lives, have been taken to many meetings including the Arc and the Breeders Cup, I would say that their lack of interest in going racing or betting come to that has absolutely zero to do with archaic fractional odds.

Any change to decimal odds would have the effect of a single bucket of grit spread over all the snowed up roads in Britain, in changing their behaviour or interest in racing or even sport generally.

People either have an interest or they don't and I'm afraid that no amount of wishful thinking and positive action is going to change that. Years of working in the mass persuasion business taught me that you can waste an awful lot of time and money pi****g in the wind on a wish list. You are always much better off focussing on those that are already predisposed towards something. The RFC people are too afraid to lose their fees or too dumb to recognise this.

Looks like they are having trouble getting their message across

Until they do, I can't see how this thread can progress.

Personally I don't care what form the odds are offered in. I stopped going racing regularly when the off course tax was abolished. That meant two sets of expenses disappeared at the same time. When I did go I found it very poor value for money and I can see from this thread that nothing has changed.
I still go regularly to the dogs and because I do, I get in for the price of a racecard. If it cost the same price to go racing I would return. Its that simple!

The RFC people would be better off looking at the reasons why people STOP going racing/betting on horses rather than what needs to change to encourage to go/bet in the first place.

Responses to this thread alone would give most of the reasons, I suspect.

Think that a point has been missed about younger people and betting on horses. All the younger ones i know who have a bet on Poker, Football and other sporting events but shun racing do so for a reason, Its called integrity, most of them who i have spoken to are of the overriding opinion that its**and a sport for insiders.

You only have to look at the plethora of misleading information given by our clerks to see how incompetent the sport is, and as for clamping down on the corruption etc, well lets say thta racing doesnt want to change.
And it doesnt want to give information out, look at the stats you can get in the states, re sectional timing, track variants etc and then look at the way that racing is presented over here on the television

And if you think that the powers to be wont use decimalisation to round down price "In order to simplify things" and 4/6 becomes 1.6 and 4/7 becomes 1.5 you didnt live through the rip off on 1971 when we saw what happened when the currency was altered, it happened again when i was living abroad when the Euro came into force.

It will just hasten a industry sp(just to simplify things LOL)

Quite right the points above about going racing though - it constantly feels like a ripoff and no-one enjoys getting ripped off.

Bad beer, poor service, extortionate entry prices (Towcester aside), monopoly on poor quality food trying to squeeze you for every last penny. Average punter would need a couple of right touches to even pay for the day out.

But surely every race track is free to try something else themselves in this area (not to do with RFC) and no sensible business charges 4.50 for something which they make 3.50 on and sell 10 of, when they could sell for £3 and sell 100 and made £2 on each? Or do they?

When I go racing I carry a sandwich plus a couple of pieces of fruit, and spend practically nothing on course, simply because I resent paying the extortionate prices charged.

Whereas when i worked at Belmont Park in Perth the food and drink was reasonably priced, they even used to have "Dollar" days midweek where admission, a beer and either a small Burger or Sandwich were a Dollar each

I took my lady to Towcester quite recently and had to pay £8 for a burger and ***** consolation though, entrance was free.

kenil takes his own sandwiches or treats his lady to burger and *****

shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion about anything

She finds it edible, I don't. Yoyo, the only reason you have for denying me an opinion is that it doesn't suit you. You deal with 2000 punters at Ascot ? Dream on.

kenil, as you say the entrance was free so u didnt resent 8 quid for entry and burger n *****, that very good value.

Racing for Change is no different an organisation than a union such as the RMT. A set of people who have to justify being paid £50k a year for, in reality, doing not much. This whole decimal v fractional debate will rage and rage with the older generation preferring to do things the traditional way and the younger generation embracing change.

In truth, it doesn't really matter wether the odds are deciamal or fractional. If you can't work out the returns of £30 at 100/30 then what makes you think you can work it out at 4.3333???
The route of the problem lies with arithmatic education in primary schools. Turning fractions into decimals and decimals into fractions is taught at a very young age so maybe a basic maths course should be offered to racegoers who can't work it out or a Ready Reckoner.

I you're no good with numbers then you probably shouldn't be betting anyway!

maybe horse racing should follow grey hound racing 6 pack value. i knoiw with dogs it brings in a load of p1ssed teenagers so we could adapt it a bit. maybe something like 15 quid for entrance, burger/*****style meal with noin alchoholic drink+ a £2 bet on the tote.maybe a bit of tinkering with the price but somethng along those lines.

sicko, that's the way Towcester make it pay, although burger and *****is not for me no matter how hungry I am. I suppose anything alongside free entrance is good value.

a £2 bet on the tote.

Anything that encourages people to bet is a great idea. Far more likely to break that barrier if it's "free" in your entrance package.

With BF the dominant player these days it seems to make some sense that betting on all sports moves to decimal odds, however I am not too sure the odds presentation puts anybody off going racing.

Let's face it, the casual race goer (of which I am one) must surely understand the majority of odds anyway as they are displayed to one so v easy to work out.

If they are at all concerned that they are not sure what the likes of 8/13 mean then somebody would be better off telling them that their casual fiver would be better spent seeking out a 5/1 shot instead.

Fundamentally, racing is about the betting. You pay to go to footie, cricket, rugby or whatever to watch the match and see the players in action.

Nobody gives a shyte about what horses are running or what jockeys are riding. The race is only of interest because you have had a bet. To have to pay £20 or whatever when all you are going for is to bet is ridiculous. A nominal entry fee, including a free bet token of some description would be much more sensible.

With BF the dominant player these days it seems to make some sense that betting on all sports moves to decimal odds, however I am not too sure the odds presentation puts anybody off going racing.

Let's face it, the casual race goer (of which I am one) must surely understand the majority of odds anyway as they are displayed to one so v easy to work out.

If they are at all concerned that they are not sure what the likes of 8/13 mean then somebody would be better off telling them that their casual fiver would be better spent seeking out a 5/1 shot instead.

Fundamentally, racing is about the betting. You pay to go to footie, cricket, rugby or whatever to watch the match and see the players in action.

Nobody gives a shyte about what horses are running or what jockeys are riding. The race is only of interest because you have had a bet. To have to pay £20 or whatever when all you are going for is to bet is ridiculous. A nominal entry fee, including a free bet token of some description would be much more sensible.

Visionary, I don't believe fractional odds deter people from going racing, but I'm sure it puts some off from betting with the bookmaker, going to the t o t e or perhaps the betting shop. You mention 8/13 which is a common price on course, why not put up 3/5 ? For 8/11 why not 7/10 ?. Odds on betting in fractions is bizarre and actually shows the bookmakers to be lazy, as every odds on price is just a reversal of odds against prices.

The idea seems to be overall to want to get more people to go racing. Odds display to me is a small factor. £20 on the gate a far bigger deterrent.

The opening post was about decimal odds and that is what I am responding to, although I agree that admission charges are a biggish deterent, also prices and quality of food and drink. The racecourses are living in the past.

The once a year punter I feel sorry for, that understands decimalised odds, is the one who backs a 4.5 shot on the tote 10 minutes before the off and, when getting paid, gets paid at 4.0 if the horse has been gambled.

Of course, the price might drift and they get paid at 5.0 or whatever.

Perhaps RFC should suggest the Tote having big warning signs at all their displays to avoid any confusion?

visionary please dont put bfair forward as the reason for decimals. they are totaly imaterial as to whether oncourse bookies should change their business model.if people wanna bert decimal then bet with the exchanges.its bad enuff having racing for change sticing gtheir nose in my business without having to do so cos bfair use decimsal.

I put BF forward as the dominant player. Anybody with an account on here will be used to decimal odds. I suspect in future anybody new to the betting arena will feel more comfortable with decimal odds.

I'm not saying the on course has to change because of the format BF uses. It matters little to me. Over time though it seems a logical evolution.

On the course charging thing - how is the Towecester experience going down? Are they making a go of it via the free entry?

Thoroughbred racing came of age with Eclipse, more than 250 years ago. In all that time, the use of fractional odds in betting has been a constant and despite the fact that there was very little education for the masses beyond age 12 until quite late in the 20th C there was never any difficulty it seems with anybody understanding how to bet.

In fact, there is quite a lot to be said for the use of fractional odds especially when doing mental arithmetic.

People use the difficult fractions such as 15/8 as examples of why its difficult. Whats difficult about betting 8 to win 15? Its only difficult if you try to convert it to decimals. And as for asking whether 15/8 is better or worse than 2/1 surely even a 5 yr can work out that 2x8 is more than 15?

For goodness sake, why change something that has worked for so long to replace it with an unproven alternative? Decimal odds are great for a betting exchange but BF have no more than 7% of the racing market. This is the tail wagging the dog.

"Unproven" is a bit strong but I don't see that the advantages of decimals outweigh the advantages of fractions or that there are fewer disadvantages.

Its like everything else in this country..Too many experts,that in reality know fck all.

Sandown 12 Jan 10:55
....there was never any difficulty it seems with anybody understanding how to bet....


Just because you mix in circles who understand fractional odds, don't kid yourself. The vast majority place an awful lot of trust (foolishly) in the bookie's offer and pre-internet, most punters would take whatever cr@p was offered.

Thank goodness there's more transparency now and the cosy world of the bookie's advantage over the punter is getting another good shake-up.

Just because you mix in circles who understand fractional odds, don't kid yourself. The vast majority place an awful lot of trust (foolishly) in the bookie's offer and pre-internet, most punters would take whatever cr@p was offered.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are a few non-sequiturs in your reply.


Firstly, over 40% of the kids today go to university compared to 3% 50 years ago. You have to imagine that they can cope. Of the rest, the school leaving age is 16 compared to 12, years ago. Most leave with some king of certificate or other. Are you telling me that these kids find fractions incomprehensible? I don't believe it.

Secondly, trust has nothing to do with it and certainly has no connect with understanding fractions.

Thirdly,"pre-internet most people would take whatever bookies offered" implies that today they won't. What has that got to do with fractions versus decimal odds and how do you know that anyway.

No doubt some kid in some focus group has said that they don't understand the difference between say 5/2 and 11/4 and that has led to this bull***t. Where is the evidence for this claim ? Lets's see the numbers on a sensible sample of say 1000 people, before we all go off on this tangent issue which imo is not central to sorting out racing's problems.

100 years ago

I'll give you my view on this even if I really shouldn't , because I'm not from the UK nor do I bet on UK horse racing.
I grew up with the decimal system and during my 12 years at school I was always the best in my class at maths and I always got top grades , but even I find it a bit hard to get the grasp of fractional odds when it comes to betting. Probably because it's natural for me to recalculate them into decimal odds in my head. I can guarantee you that at least 50 % people growing up with decimal systems only , will never understand fractional odds on betting.
If the decimal system , as I believe , is used more and more in UK schools , there is no doubt in my mind that converting to decimal odds will increase turnover on UK horse betting in the future.

I believe it's in the human nature to be sceptic towards changes , but converting to decimals is a certainty at some point , so why fight it ?

And whilst I've got a head of steam up, I would say that fractional odds are much easier to use when betting rather than decimals unless I want to bet to a base of £1 or £10 which is never really the case.

If you want to bet to win a base of £10 or £100 what's the difference in ease between 100/9, 100/8,100/7 ,100/6 say, not that those fractions are used anymore anyway.

As for smaller odds, fractional odds mostly work to base 8 as in 5/4,11/8, 6/4,13/8,7/4,15/8,2/1. How difficult is that? My cat can understand that!

OK there are some that work to base 10, eg 11/10, 12/10 but these are easily understood. Think about using the English language which has thousands of exceptions to rules. There's very little fuss about learning English, is there, and that is far more difficult than understanding fractions.

What a load of mamby pambies you are.

Eddy
What I will give you is that decimals are essential for betting exchanges but that's all I will concede.

Eddytheeagle

"there is no doubt in my mind that converting to decimal odds will increase turnover on UK horse betting in the future."
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the crux of it. It assumes that some/many people are not betting because they don't understand fractional odds and therefore are inhibited from betting and changing to decimal odds will encourage them.There is zero evidence on this being presented.Its pure opinion.

Using a decimal scale where the tick movements are not cumbersome (there is no need to be anchored by matching fractional odds %) may come about anyway for other reasons.

The idea that this is the first change to implement is what is laughable. Added to the idea that terms like "hanging" are confusing and should be changed and you begin to wonder what else is in store, for C*****s sake.

My point was more that horse race betting as any other buisniss needs to renew/recruit new customers all the time and if those just out of school or still in school is getting more and more used to the decimal system , staying with the fractional system is a big obsticle for newcomers.

Sandown, you are under the illusion that fractions are easy, because you find them so. And you claim there's little fuss about learning English, again because you find it so.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who's always struggled with maths or someone moving to Britain at the age of 15 who will never speak as well as a native.

You accuse me of using non sequiturs and then use English as an analogy...If you were a Latin scholar, I get the impression that you would not understand why ever moved on from Roman numerals.


To illustrate my point:
Which is higher 1.13 or 1.17?
Which is higher 2/15 or 1/6
Both obvious to you, no doubt but I would have to think about it. And yes, I'm numerate and University (and public school) educated fwiw.


Why do we say give it to "him" and not give it to "he"?
As a native speaker, is the answer on the tip of you tongue or do you have to think about it?

The answer is that "him" is the object in this example, not the subject.

eddy

You don't want to attract new racegoers/bettors at the expense of losing existing supporters though, do you.What's the point of that.

Not that changing to decimals odds would necessarily lead to that but many things that have been done such as attracting young crowds by putting on pop concerts, that does lead to that.

There is a lack of clarity about the aims of all this. If its getting more people to go racing then you have to be careful because the comfort limits get exceeded, the prices are increased for the big meetings because the courses know that they can do that when there is over-demand and yet for the small meetings crowds are derisory.

As for generating an interest in horseracing in the first place it may be that as with other products, the taste for it takes time to mature. Perhaps a focus on the youth market is conceptually wrong.

1.01 layer

You use an example which isn't easy even for me to "see" instantly but its not a realistic example, is it? The vast majority of people, especially newbies, are never going to be in the position of backing something at such short odds and the problem will never arise.And at odds agianst there are only a few confusing oddities to be considered.

My point is that any misunderstanding of fractional odds could easily be overcome by putting up a few well placed lists of the rank order of odds and their associated % if the problem does exist ( which I doubt until proven otherwise) without changing over to decimal odds everywhere.

Conceptually I have no problem with changing to decimals despite what I have written its just that I don't see the necessity for it when the practice has worked well for 250 years with no mention of this as an issue until now. The sport of horseracing is nothing without its traditions and this is an important one.If it goes then so be it but it must be for the right reasons and saying that betting turnover will increase as a result is not the right reason, because I doubt very very much if there is the slightest connect. Prove me wrong.

sandown , as I said in my opening post , I'm really not the one to solve the problems for UK horse racing.
One thing I know for sure though is that you are wrong when you think that most people think fractional odds betting is easy to understand.
I'll bet you all the money I have that less than 50 % of the grown population in UK could calculate in their head the net profits from a £ 5 bet @ 13/8.
The number of people that can do this is probably closer to 10 % than 50 %.

Eddy

Possibly but why put on £5? What's wrong with £4? Or £8? Or £6?

And does it make it any easier if you have to calculate £5 x 2.625?

It does if you've got a calculator on your phone.

To your first question , I just thought that a £ 5 note would be a natural amount to bet.

To your 2nd question , yes and I think most people would find it easier.

If you are using a calculator then how hard is it to punch in 13 x 5 divided by 8?

Its not hard to do it your head, even, is it?

5 x 2.625 = pressing 7 buttons.

5 x 21 / 8 = pressing 6 buttons.

Fractional odds are easier to calculate if you have a calculator on your phone.

What's the fractional odds for 2.63? 2.64?

So, we lose the tradition, incur all the on-costs all for the sake of 1 button on a calculator.

Providing you are not constrained by having to work in units of £5 or $10 all the time, the fractional odds are easier to calculate mentally than decimals ..assuming the poor dears can do mental arithmetic these days.

As for the relative ranking of odd odds, learning the odds table is as easy as learning anything by rote, if not easier.

The Betfairy

Does it matter because you don't need to convert from decimals into fractions?

But what if the bookmaker wanted to offer 2.64?

If the bookmakers are using decimals then you wouldn't have to compare unless some other bookmaker is working in fractions in which case you would want to. Those using exchanges work to exchange prices. If they want to bet with bookies at fractional odds as well then life would be easier if they also bet in decimals I guess. Is that it, the advantage, I mean?