Southgate’s England

Will get through to round of 16 - play someone decent and get knocked out
Had hoped they would win tonight and get pushed in to favourite then could have laid laid laid

yes he has most probably got a better bunch of players

spot on in my opinion...Hodgson in 2014 WC got absolutely panned but they were actually ok in a tough group....two defeats to Italy and Uruguay 2-1 both of which could have gone the other way and fell on small margins before playing squad players as we were already out against Costa Rica...

Eng in 2018 relied on a nice group, pens to beat Colombia minus James Rodriguez, did play well against Sweden and then got outplayed in the key phases of the game against Croatia but apparently that was glorious

Did anyone really expect any different going into this tournament. Said the other day, but couldn't believe the praise England got after the first game. Croatia are a bang average side in 2021, England created one chance all game against them, it was an average performance that for some reason had the pundits waxing lyrical.

The England side is absolutely stacked with attacking talent, yet can't create f all, fingers only have to point in 1 direction.

And England creating f all has been going back nearly every game post-lockdown.

Hmmm
International football is about control of the game.
You dont get to build up a team over a pre season and develop it over months.
Its straight in and sh!t ur pants I am afraid.

The progress under Southgate has been undeniable. He actually won a penalty shoot out and did that with an actual plan, thought out to the minutest detail by all accounts.
Which is a refreshing change from the penalties-are-a-lottery you get from a lot of pundits.

Theyve beaten Croatia 3 times now since the semi final, which shows he has learned his lessons. They got to the Nations League semi and got robbed by VAR.

THis covid/var version of football has not been conducive to lots of goals from open play. France got 2 chalked off the other day and the Czech pen today was at best questionable.

But the OP is right. Goals are the big question mark. Wether Southgate has the cojones to revamp his forward line mid-tournament is going to be the key as to wether England stick it out or wether they go home early.

Played with fear, embarrassing, his England team much like Hodgson's have 1 notable thing is common, they worry more about the opposition rather than imposing their game on the opposition, even against Scotland, would not be surprised if the Czech's beat them.

I strongly suspect he's going to make like 10 changes vs Czechs and he absolutely should too. Who knows what that will lead to, it could end up being better though.

after that performance he'll be playing his best team for definite, under pressure now, not to qualify but in general, if he wants to keep his job he has to start putting in good performances in these tournaments.

If anything that performance makes you more likely to make changes. How on earth can you justify putting out the same 11? No point of half the squad being there if he does that. He needs to find who is in form and can only do that through changes. It also combines with resting key players before the last 16, albeit I'm not even sure who those players are right now.

As n88uk suggests, 2018 was the last time this Croatia team was top level, they’ve been running on empty with slow,ageing players since.

The Nation’s League is a minor event.

It’s fair to say France don’t create much either, but they have better players to control the game, and I think they will come unstuck anyway in trying to 1-0 every match.

If you don’t create a lot of chances you will have tight games even against 2nd rate opposition.

France also pose much, much more threat on the counter attack than England do. England in theory could pose that threat, but in practice haven't in recent times (we did do it very well vs eg. Spain in the Nations League).

I didn't say the same team, but his best team, that includes Sancho and Grealish and in this moment in time, Rashford for Kane, who is currently unfit by the looks of it.

Well yer but you've just named 3 changes immediately, so are basically agreeing with me. I think everyone would agree he isn't playing his best team right now, but he doesn't know what it is.

Maguire will surely definitely start if he's fit. Can see both full backs changing again. Midfield is a ? as it's where we have least depth and cover, but expect at least Bellingham to start.

As I say it could end up working out a better team, which wouldn't be that difficult on first 2 showings.

no, I see 3 or 4 changes, not 10 changes, should not change 10, that'd be silly

I can see something like Grealish playing Mount role, Rashford and Sancho on flanks probably with Calvert-Lewin through middle.

Something like Pickford (though could easily change him too but bit pointless really), Walker/Trippier, Maguire, ? (could be anyone), Chilwell, Rice, Bellingham, Grealish, Rashford, Sancho, Calvert-Lewin is team I'm expecting vs Czech Republic.

Oh Henderson actually will surely get a game thinking about it too.

this should be the team


...................Pickford................

Walker.........Stones..Mings..........Shaw

....................Rice..................

...................Grealish................

.....Sancho..........Foden...........Sterling

.....................Rashford.............

Maguire not fit, keep Mings imo, don't nothing wrong.

Jun 18, 2021 -- 11:11PM, tobermory wrote:

As n88uk suggests, 2018 was the last time this Croatia team was top level, they’ve been running on empty with slow,ageing players since.The Nation’s League is a minor event.It’s fair to say France don’t create much either, but they have better players to control the game, and I think they will come unstuck anyway in trying to 1-0 every match.If you don’t create a lot of chances you will have tight games even against 2nd rate opposition.

The thing is not only are Croatia past it, I'm not sure how visually anyone actually thought England looked good. I normally like G-Nev but he went so overboard, it wasn't even funny, he was talking about how lethargic we looked tonight, we looked the exact same vs Croatia, there was one good move basically initiated by Phillips, other than that we were lethargic all game vs Croatia too. Croatia almost certainly aren't a top 10 side in Europe anymore, so many players well past 30.

If Maguire isn't fit, you have to question why he's even there (not that I'm doubting you).

Sterling surely can't play after today's game, he was awful.

pretty sure Maguire is technically fit, ideally would have won tonight and he could have had a virtual freebie against the Czech Rep prior to playing a bigger game

The problem as ever with punditry in this country is it's always boom or bust. Win = best thing ever, draw or loss = worst thing ever.

It's already a virtual freebie vs Czech Republic, only if England finished 3rd out of it have they really lost badly, chances of that happening are very low. I imagine Czech's will rest players as they probably aren't too bothered about winning group given for them getting the "easier" next round is a bigger deal, and they have no home advantage unlike England.

which players do we think aren't fit?

Kane?

Gealish better in a more advanced number 10 role I think scandy

in and around the box, dribbling, winning free kicks

I just think Kane's playing his Tottenham role that isn't remotely suited to how England play or want to play.

you're certainly right that they are unlikely not to qualify but on the back of 0-0 at home to Scotland it's a lot less of a freebie...

as bad as Sterling was he almost got a penalty

It will be impossible to not qualify I'm pretty sure by the time of the match. Nearly impossible for 4 points to not be enough in this format.

By finish 3rd, I meant our draw becomes much tougher in doing so, but for that to happen we have to lose badly, and Scotland win.

Or we lose and Scotland win comfortably.

that Scotland team ain't winning comfortably against anybody

The thing about Kane is that a succession of ankle injuries have slowed him to a virtual cart horse.
He has no work rate anymore so cant press.
And on top of that his win percentage in aerial duels is around the 0.00 mark.

He can score goals by the bucketful in an open game, which is pratically every epl match but that is rarely the case in international tournaments.

The problem Southgate had tonight was that he was facing in effect a British style 'derby'.
Trying to play 'football' in such a game is always fraught with difficulty.
Its funny but it often pays to give possession away in such games.
The expression hoofing it into the mixer has lost a lot of its appeal these days but with scotland fielding a back 5 with only Hanley as a recognised Center Back it may well have been a better policy..
Still you got a point.

Jun 18, 2021 -- 11:00PM, thelatarps wrote:

HmmmInternational football is about control of the game.You dont get to build up a team over a pre season and develop it over months.Its straight in and sh!t ur pants I am afraid.The progress under Southgate has been undeniable. He actually won a penalty shoot out and did that with an actual plan, thought out to the minutest detail by all accounts. Which is a refreshing change from the penalties-are-a-lottery you get from a lot of pundits.Theyve beaten Croatia 3 times now since the semi final, which shows he has learned his lessons. They got to the Nations League semi and got robbed by VAR. THis covid/var version of football has not been conducive to lots of goals from open play. France got 2 chalked off the other day and the Czech pen today was at best questionable.But the OP is right. Goals are the big question mark. Wether Southgate has the cojones to revamp his forward line mid-tournament is going to be the key as to wether England stick it out or wether they go home early.

Penalties are a lottery and always will be, winning a pen shootout isn't evidence of a thing lol

I've said before the tournament started that as a United fan please don't buy Harry Kane.

That's two games now and I'm not sure he's even touched the ball has he?  Granted I do feel for him that as a CF and goal scorer I suppose you can only pretty much wait for the ball/crosses to come and if they aren't coming what can you do?

But still he's just not for me at all and I suggest England even drop him as he does seem slow, lethargic.

Now if United could buy 'Son' from Spurs?  Yes please now look at the difference between him and Kane.  great player.

Would like to see the running stats for last night, I bet they're lower than usual, which means they're trying to avoid last 16 ko. Strangely lethargic imo.

I think Rashford  touched the ball twice, on both occasions giving a pass back to the player who passed to him.
I counted several random minutes of England possession through the match , counting passes that went backward against those that went forward. The results were 11-2.  ,  15 -5 ,   12 -7 ,  16 - 3   i wont list them all but you get the idea. England had 1 shot on goal which makes 3 shots on goal in 3 hours of football.
I'm sure Football used to be entertaining. Now its a chess match with a few cheats thrown in.

The referee was good though. Didn't just follow the English refs rule. “ If they fall down, give a foul.”

Penalties are a lottery and always will be, winning a pen shootout isn't evidence of a thing lol

You are right. Maybe that is why the Germans don’t practice taking penalties from the moment they can walk!

If Scotland could hypnotise their players into believing every opponent was England they would have few problems.

As for out shower

Over the decades , and last night,  I am always baffled why our top flight players change how they play for their clubs. No pass and move at pace.
In addition we very rarely finish strongly , if we don't have a good first hour we are a mess.

The players

Kane - at his best is a deadly striker and a nuisance for defenders all the time ......he was hopeless last night and should not be picked if he does not improve.
Rashford - Nothingl like good enough at this level for me.
Grealish - showed the scottish could not get the ball of him  with back to goal , a great trick and no use in providing for the strikers.
Sterling - not exactly first team choice at City , but is for England .... go figure
Rice and Philips - not a cat in hells chance we will win this with a back 6 , especially as James and Shaw did not overlap very often.

I do hope Sancho and Bellingham have not been brought from Germany to sit on the bench for a month.
Calvert- Lewin - good season in a poor team , start him instead of Kane.

And I would love to see some of our players show the bounce , energy and drive that Robertson still had talking to the press.

If some of our guys don't want to play for their nation  , tell the boss and get on the beach taking selfies .

only difference between last night and last world cup was VAR and reffs reluctance to use it [ rightly imo ]
i said this last week idiots like frank lampard saying mount was brilliant against croatia  [ whove proved to be one of worst sides in tournament ].when actually most people thought mount hadnt played, mount played far better last night than last week[3 or 4 passes putting people away down the lefty,got on end of one in box ] but does anyone think mount played out of his skin last night which is next up from been brilliant last week
declan rice has 2 things on his bucket list
1, run through a wheat field
2, pass a ball 5 yds forward
and bad news for fans 1st far more likely than 2nd and he lives in east london
makes ray wilkins look like messi
to be honest ive watched all england games and the media/manager/pundits seems to describe the way they,d like MOUNT,RICE,PHILLIPS,STERLING, to play and not how they actually play on the pitch,

Southgate has not learned from his past mistakes. His team selections are terrible and his tactics are worse.

German media baffled and laughing at us how a team that apparently is so talented to not give Sancho a minute can only score 1 goal in 2 games.

you can't really determine Sancho's true ability because he plays in the Bundesliga which is quite weak bar Bayern.

One of the worst England teams I can remember

mount was shocking....take him off corner duties.....absolute clown......as for the manager.....he was probably the only person in the country who thought taking Foden off was the right idea.....because he has not given a plan to execute we are turning into belgium.....skilled individuals cant play as a team.......

It starts with something very very simple.

When our midfielder receives the ball from a defender, their first instinct should be to turn and look at what is available in front of them, not to pass it backwards or sideways.

Ditto when we press the opposition and there is a breakdown from which we receive the ball in broken play - how can we hurt the opposition IMMEDIATELY, not merely retain possession, let the opponents regroup and we return to playing in silos.

Then, where our wide men are one-on -one with an opponent, occasionally try to take them on rather than passing backwards or sideways. This will involve sprinting probably, which is an alien concept to the side at present, but one that comes when a side is sent out with a sense of energy and purpose.

Finally, you are allowed to cross the ball. Not always but even as a surprise element when you are in the opponents final third of the pitch. You may even score but the very least you will do is ask the opposition different questions than merely retaining possession and playing laterally and backwards in front of them.

As you can tell, I have never taken an FA coaching badge

taking the ball off the back 5 isnt an art any fool can do it,the art is taking it on the half turf and having a picture before you receive,if your passing it straight back it means your not aware of whats around you/havnt got a picture and are just doing it because you,ve been told thats what to do

England managers invariably come in for unfair criticism, it's been the same for years and god knows how many managers. The pure fact is England do not produce truly world class footballers that would make us really competitive against the best. We've had some good runs in tourneys over the last 30 years or so but I can't help feeling that's more due to the English spirit rather and effort rather than the actual class of the players.

This current bunch is full of over rated players that may look good at club level playing in the top teams that are dominating weaker teams month in month out, mainly due to being full of far more talented foreign players. Put our players together in a bunch and they don't seem so good! I would argue that England hasn't produced a truly world class player since Paul Gascoigne and while we continue to allow our top teams to be flooded by foreign talent, things won't get any better.

Everyone's an expert but don't blame the manager, we're simply not good enough.

Jun 19, 2021 -- 9:04AM, Whisperingdeath wrote:

Penalties are a lottery and always will be, winning a pen shootout isn't evidence of a thing lolYou are right. Maybe that is why the Germans don’t practice taking penalties from the moment they can walk!

Players should practice them but lets not pretend winning a penalty shootout is evidence of a good manager- Germany have won 2 penalty shootouts in 25 years.. so what?

Awful tactics . He will not change the system , just the personnel . Been watching the same football all year with Spurs 6-0-4 formation .

Imagine Guardiola with the same team , attacking and defending as a unit .

Too much coaching and instructions for me ,just let them go and play ffs

Kane has ruined his transfer prospects , who would pay ÂŁ100million + and give him gazillions of week after watching him here ?

he's playing a blinder is Kane

because the answer is nobody, nobody would pay 100mil in this climate

so what better way to lower your transfer valuation and engineer a way out of Tottenham than playing crap for England on the big stage

Levy must be seething

Where's he engineering a move to Swansea or Hull...

Jun 19, 2021 -- 4:12PM, chipbutty wrote:

England managers invariably come in for unfair criticism, it's been the same for years and god knows how many managers. The pure fact is England do not produce truly world class footballers that would make us really competitive against the best. We've had some good runs in tourneys over the last 30 years or so but I can't help feeling that's more due to the English spirit rather and effort rather than the actual class of the players.This current bunch is full of over rated players that may look good at club level playing in the top teams that are dominating weaker teams month in month out, mainly due to being full of far more talented foreign players. Put our players together in a bunch and they don't seem so good! I would argue that England hasn't produced a truly world class player since Paul Gascoigne and while we continue to allow our top teams to be flooded by foreign talent, things won't get any better.Everyone's an expert but don't blame the manager, we're simply not good enough.

This squad has technical quality but Southgate plays his way regardless. Phillips is horribly negative as is James. Sterling is technically poor but is always a starter. Suggesting it is the players and not the manager is butting your head in the sand. Different players same methods...the common denominator is the manager. I have been watching England managers play scared football for many years. Once in a while in tournaments we have seen an epiphany from one and the team was transformed. I just cannot see that Southgate has that in him. The team reflect him and it isn’t pretty.

Jun 19, 2021 -- 12:49PM, n88uk wrote:

German media baffled and laughing at us how a team that apparently is so talented to not give Sancho a minute can only score 1 goal in 2 games.

Yes, I saw that.

oh no we,re on the lets draw.lose on tuesday to finish 2nd and avoid playing 2nd in germany,s group
be like godber,s  boxing match in porridge if the cheq,s think the same way

Enpassant why do you think that we have won nothing for 55 years when European countries with comparable populations like Spain, France and Germany have won multiple tournaments? Is it just that we've had a succession of bad managers or the fact, as I said we simply haven't had enough top players.

This squad is no different, good players but no more. I'm not arguing and you're more than entitled to your opinion, but from my point of view, put the best manager in the world with this bunch of players and we'd still come up short.

Having said all that, I'm of course 100% behind them and would love to be proves wrong - although if they do go on and win it does that mean that Southgate is a good manager?

as a manager what did southgate achieve ?

good at the knee sh1t tho be wearinga rainbow skirt v Czech

Eng a joke

As tobes told us;

9 tournament games

Goals from open play 4, and one those was a deflection.

But that is really England, we just hoped it would get better but it wont when employing people like southgate.

look at the way Germany and Italy play

with the players England have, if they played open, expansive, fluid and attacking like that they'd beat anyone, but Southgate has them scared and defensive, it's reminscent of Hodgson's England and that ended with humiliation against Icenland, this could go a similar way, 0 goals against Scotland and Czechs.

However I do think Southgate knows the precocious position he's in with his job, he needs to pull something out of the bag, he should drop a holding player probably Phillips, bring in Grealish, drop Kane, and bring in Calvert Lewin who'd be more useful, and bring in Sancho.

If he starts with the same team he needs castrating.

I can't spell Scandinavia or Iceland but the points remain

no prob with gelding

I thought at the start of the tournament that there would be only one thing holding Southgate back. His reliance on Kane.
The difference between england reaching the world cup final and getting ko'd by Croatia was the fact that subbing off Kane was too much of a risky decision.

I think we can all see that Kane ought not to be starting the next match.
If Southgate does what he should do, and I think he will, then I can see England going a long way.

From what I have seen in this tournament, there is nothing to scare you.
The Germans beat a knack3red Portugal today. So what.
Pat Viera is quite right when he questions Italy's physicality.

The only team I have seen who have given England a complete chasing during Southgate's regime have been France. But you have to ask yourself how often are they gonna go to the well playing with 8 defenders and three forwards?
That is a lot of hard yards, game in game out.

Sooner or later playing without the ball will take its toll physically and mentally. France followed a world cup up with a Euros 20 years ago. I dont rate this team as good as that one.
Relying on counter attack football cant last forever.

Jun 19, 2021 -- 9:12PM, chipbutty wrote:

Enpassant why do you think that we have won nothing for 55 years when European countries with comparable populations like Spain, France and Germany have won multiple tournaments? Is it just that we've had a succession of bad managers or the fact, as I said we simply haven't had enough top players.This squad is no different, good players but no more. I'm not arguing and you're more than entitled to your opinion, but from my point of view, put the best manager in the world with this bunch of players and we'd still come up short.Having said all that, I'm of course 100% behind them and would love to be proves wrong - although if they do go on and win it does that mean that Southgate is a good manager?

All I’m asking for is for Southgate to stop playing scared football. It is ****, it is boring and it will get us knocked out again without even trying to win the thing. His style is defeatist and his teams walk onto the field in fear. Foden, Grealish, Bellingham, Saka, Mount, are young mobile and technically very good. Southgate but has his new Milner and Henderson in Rice and Phillips. Yes we have won f... all for 55 years and gone out of tournaments with a whimper countless times- it it a go ffs.

3 mice on the shirt

enpassant

I've pointed out before though.

I can't see how you can blame the manager when since 1966 England have tried SEVENTEEN different manager's!

Anybody ever stopped to think that our players just aren't good enough?  Yes you may have an argument if it was three or four managers but SEVENTEEN?

you mean that players that won umpteen European cups and league titles in the 70's though to the present day, including the period where they failed to qualify for 2 World Cups in a row, the difference being is that those title winning and Champions League winnings team with those English players in them, had top drawer managers, England's managers have been the problem not the players, otherwise how else can you explain reaching the very top of the club game but doing nothing for country.

Not all of them however, Venables, Hoddle, Robson were all good who were only knocked out on penalties, if those games were played the day before or after they may have won.

But the likes of Keegan, Hodgson, Southgate, Taylor, McClaren, not good enough. Capello was the wrong fit, did not speak English well at all.

Jun 22, 2021 -- 5:05PM, LOU MACARIS TARTAN B wrote:

enpassantI've pointed out before though.I can't see how you can blame the manager when since 1966 England have tried SEVENTEEN different manager's!Anybody ever stopped to think that our players just aren't good enough?

Not sure what happened there

To sum it up: Southgate has better players and doesn’t use them. He plays scared football and it is sh!te to watch and gets us knocked out. If we are going out let’s at least go out trying to score goals and excite.

Milner Henderson Delph Dier GS loves a DM with limited ability on the ball.....well he loves two of them tbf.

empassant

I agree with some choices in team selection although again it has to be said how many different variations of players would people pick if you asked them, there's be about a hundred.  We have three or four Right Backs for a start and I'd have picked Wan Bissaka over all of them yet he's not even in the squad!

That said though it's laughable to blame SEVENTEEN different managers who all just happen to fail?  It's the players full stop, we're obviously just not as good as the likes of Germany, Argentina, France, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Belgium, Uruguay, Brazil etc etc.

As has been pointed out: we have had 3 managers that got us actually looking like a team that went out to win games. The have looked like the pressure of the job got to them. We have had some very decent sides over those years and have gone close/ish at times. Belgium have been the ‘best side in the world’ for several years but have won f all...not sure where you Uruguay is coming from though

*The rest

Cut off half the text again !

Sum up- Southgate football grim grim grim.

17 managers have failed before,difference this time on paper we,re equal to every side other than france,very few superstars about,ronny could be out tomorrow

“
9 tournament games

Goals from open play 4, and one those was a deflection

”

enpassant

Like i said though you could maybe make an arguement for three or four managers but Seventeen?

Imagine a company selling a product that kept failing so they changed the Manager to change things round.  He couldn't get it to work either so they tried another Manager who couldn't get it to work either.

Having tried SEVENTEEN different manager's wouldn't you have come by now to the reasoning that the product this company is selling is just not wanted, just not good enough.  You'd close the company down wouldn't you and admit defeat after trying SEVENTEEN different manager's to try and get it to work?

We'll be having this conversation in another twenty years .  Will you at least THEN admit that the players just aren't good enough compared to other countries?

Jun 22, 2021 -- 6:27PM, LOU MACARIS TARTAN B wrote:

enpassantLike i said though you could maybe make an arguement for three or four managers but Seventeen?Imagine a company selling a product that kept failing so they changed the Manager to change things round.

I give up

Your analogy doesn’t work.

enpassant

It's perfect though.

How can you blame Seventeen different manager's for our failure rather than the players who are actually out there trying their best?

three or four manager's maybe  ................ but SEVENTEEN?