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scandanavian_haven
24 Nov 18 21:23
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Date Joined: 27 May 11
| Topic/replies: 14,821 | Blogger: scandanavian_haven's blog
5 points behind Barca, discuss Grin
Pause Switch to Standard View Real Madrid 8/1 to win the league
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Report tobermory November 24, 2018 10:36 PM GMT
Would rather back Atletico myself
Report skygreenzone November 25, 2018 1:51 PM GMT
Give me a 100/1 i'd have a little interest.
Report thelatarps November 25, 2018 7:56 PM GMT
What is going to happen in spain now that cr7 has gone and when messi retires?
If madrid and barca fall back in the pack and valencia or sevilla get involved in the title race does that make la liga more exciting from a competition point of view than the epl?
perhaps yes imo.
ANd with the greater technical expertise on offer then maybe la liga starts to challenge the epl tv deals?
And think on this
If spain admits benfica, porto and sporting to form some iberian super league that could be a real gamechanger....
Report duffy November 25, 2018 8:30 PM GMT
^
Not sure if this is a wind up but......

Over the past decade we've seen a Barca side that was in the argument for best club side ever, Real have just won 3 Chanpions league titles, when 2 of the best players ever are both no longer there I struggle to see how a more competitive product through "lesser" quality on show is going to make it more attractive to the money tv men, if it couldn't compete with the prem with all of the above then it certainly won't in future....even if the "best" that Portugal has to offer comes to play.

This is also why the European Super League is being touted mainly by the rest of Europe, the EPL doesn't need it....the rest do.

Eleven sports are welcome to Spain and Italy.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 8:35 PM GMT
Barca weren't the best club side ever, the best club side ever would have managed to have won at least the Champions League 2 years in a row, best they could do was 3 la liga titles in a row, and then the treble - but then Man United, Bayern and Inter have all done that, there football was all about possession and passing with 1 wizard of a player up top, the United team in 1999 was more entertaining to watch.
Report duffy November 25, 2018 8:48 PM GMT
As I said in my post that Barca side were "in the argument" for best club side ever, personally speaking I think they were very close because they played the game in the way that is the hardest to do but is the most destructive to the opposition if you're good enough, namely pass move at pace with accuracy allied with a quick high press to regain possession when it is finally lost....tire the oppostion out when you have the ball and suffocate them when you don't, brutal really.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 8:56 PM GMT
accuracy? vast majority of them were 5 yard passes.
Report tobermory November 25, 2018 8:56 PM GMT
Why do have to win 3 in a row to be the best ever Confused

If that's the criteria you must rate Zidane's Real Madrid the best ever.
Report tobermory November 25, 2018 8:58 PM GMT
They were 5 yard passes because their tactics meant there was always a team mate 5 yards away.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 9:05 PM GMT
exactly, they planned on making as many short passes as possible, so no point talking about accuracy, is my point.

I don't think you can say there is 'best ever', because it's all hypothetical as to who would have beaten who across different era's, they have these kind of impossible to win debates in Boxing all the time for example.

But, if someone is going to call them the best club team ever, you have to ask the question why if they really were that good could they not win 2 in a row, or even 4 or 5 la liga's in a row, and then you can come back with well Madrid did it, does that make them the best? no but it puts them in the conversation - a conversation that will never result in an actual conclusion as it's subjective based upon your own criteria.

I would say however, it's more impressive to win 3 Champions League titles in a row plus 1 La Liga title, then 3 La Liga titles and 1 Champions League, Madrid did the former, Barca the latter, but that's because I believe winning the Champions Leauge is far more difficut than La Liga, but we had this discussion a few weeks ago and it went back and forth and back and forth and you believed what you believed and I believed what I believed.

One thing is for sure, anyone that says Barca outright were the best team ever no questions asked is being ridiculous imo.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 9:08 PM GMT
Then people who want to say Barca were the best ever, then say that the Champions League require 'too much luck' which imo, is an excuse, groups are a given for a team like Barca, then in the KO stages, 180 minutes of football is plenty enough time over two leagues see who is superior, as for the final, don't think there has been many CL finals in years gone by when the best team lost because of some lucky decision or whatever, if fact can't think of any, even if it's level after extra time, if you're not ahead by then, then you cannot say you were better, maybe even but not better.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 9:10 PM GMT
Then you look at La Liga, vast majority of teams operating on a fraction of Barca's budget with far inferior players, squads, training grounds, managers etc,  they have 1 or 2 realistic rivals year after year, not the case in Europe - which is why it took 26 years for 1 team to manage to win in 2 years in a row, then 3, because it's that difficult.

For Madrid and Madrid fans though, Europe is way more important than winning the league title so they concentrated on that.
Report duffy November 25, 2018 9:57 PM GMT
As for the 5 yard passes!!! you can't use that as a stick to beat them with, precisely the opposite in fact because if you are passing and moving at pace, the closer you are to your intended target the harder it becomes because you have less thinking time as to what and where to go next!!

This is why what they did is the purest form of the game, because for all of the fancy step-overs and players beating players and however exciting those things are of course,the truth is that those things are needed to create space and take players out of the game, however if you could do what that Barca and the Spanish side did, you wouldn't need any of that fancy stuff because pass move at that pace tears sides apart but it is practically impossible to achieve because of the difficulty.

However for all it's quality we've also seen in recent years that trying to play this way when you are no longer at that level of ability, is perhaps the worst thing to watch in football because what you get is opposition teams getting behind the ball still through fear but the attacking side not being able to move it as quick any more meaning that the defence don't get dragged about and it endlessly goes from side to side hoping for something to happen.
Report thelatarps November 25, 2018 10:27 PM GMT
Ok
La Liga has got extremely wealthy at the top end out of the messi v ronaldo/barca-madrid rivalry.
But lets face it, its been a circus.
They get everything in their favour, be it tax breaks, ref decisions, kick off times before vital ucl games....etc.
Thats fine as long as they are delivering.
But Madrid without Ronnie are a shambles and I predict Barca will be no different without Leo.

I understand the La Liga tv money is being restructured, more for the other teams.
And there are some VERY big teams in spain.
Bilbao, Sociedad, Valencia, Seville, Betis, Deportivo, Villareal.
Atletico have been more than a match for the big 2 for the last 5 years.

Barca and Madrid are going to be facing a massive rebuild in the coming years. And thanks to Barca artificially hiking up the transfer market with their preposterous asking price for Neymar they are going to have to spend the thick end of a billion euros to do that.
Its money that they can never get their hands on.
Even if they could there is no Leo or Ronnie out there who is a guarateed 30 goal a season man.
Maybe Mbappe but he is never leaving Paris.

Now you can look at this scenario and say that La Liga will drop to the level of  Serie A which was once the best league in europe and now about the fourth best.
Or you can look at the technical level of the average spanish footballer and surmise that with a level playing field La Liga could become a very competitive tournament featuring ten or so very big clubs.
with its proposed game in the USA between Barca and Girona La Liga has shown its ambition to become the biggest league in the world.
Its an ambition that could very well pose a massive threat to the EPL.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 10:31 PM GMT
sorry did not see it that way, they were not playing at a frantic pace, a lot of their tiki taka were short passes and relatively normal speed, it was mind numbingly dull to watch at times albeit effective.
Report Hamsterdam November 25, 2018 11:05 PM GMT
The La Liga TV deal was done a few seasons back, they all get at least 50 million euro now. The EPL will almost be the most watched because it's English speaking.
Report scandanavian_haven November 25, 2018 11:12 PM GMT
How does that make sense...Premier Leagueis massively popular in Asia but English is not their language, they watch to watch the football, not hear them speak.

They are, in part, more popular than any other league because they were ahead of the game in the early days, they were selling their rights/promoting league back in the 80's to Europe and some other parts of the world, many adopted a team, one of the more fashionable sides and have stayed loyal since. La Liga has been slow off the mark in that sense to sell themselves aborad.

There's also the fact that England is seen and promoted as, the home of football, the motherland.

There's really not much actual difference in quality between most Prem teams and most La liga teams though, it's just one league has always been far better as marketing than the other. Spanish are just catching up.
Report clacherholiday2 November 26, 2018 1:15 AM GMT
Its also the case that even though we've had live La Liga here for 15 years, we've always had English commentary lol.
Report clacherholiday2 November 26, 2018 1:16 AM GMT
thats a response to Hamsterdams language comment, every country has a local broadcast team.
Report Platini November 26, 2018 3:20 PM GMT
Madrid rise and fall in cycles, and after 3 incredible seasons, it looks like they're going into one of their natural recessions.

BTW, I agree Barca were not the GOAT club side.  Milan 1989 and 1990 were the best side I've ever seen.
Report tobermory November 26, 2018 7:21 PM GMT
The Pep Barca in those three seasons did not win 3 leagues and 1 Cl it was 3 titles and 2 CLs.

They won them all in dominant fashion. Only one CL lost tie to Inter and only one other tie was a contest to the end (Chelsea in 2009)

Real Madrid have meanwhile lucked out in multiple ties that were 50-50 on balance of play, opposition goalies virtually chucking the ball in for them, dodgy reffing etc

Also consider that the greatest in sports will always have certain performances where they absolutely dominated against their strongest rivals. It is very easy to put up 10 or more games from the Pep Barca run where they totally destroyed their strongest rivals (teams that were among the top 5 or 6 in Europe).
Report thelatarps November 26, 2018 7:36 PM GMT
Also worthwhile remembering that Barca went out in 2010 to Jose and Inter after losing the first leg 3-1
It was the year of the icelandic volcanic-death-cloud which grounded all western european air flight for a week.
Just happened to be the week that barca had to go to milan.
Instead of an hour flight they had a 20 hour coach ride.
Ouch.
I second tobermory and his condemnation of Real's UCL supposed domination.
Last season they got a soft penalty in the first leg v psg, an opponent sent off in the second.
Pen and red card at home to juve thanks to our own michael oliver
how they got past bayern in the semi is a total flucking mystery. Bayern outplayed them but couldnt put the chances away.
And sergio ramos marauding around the field like genghis khan knocking out the opponents best player and goal keeper. Well if that had been any other team they would have been down to ten men and would have lost
A miserable achievement.
Report scandanavian_haven November 26, 2018 7:38 PM GMT
dominant = bored the living daylights out of everyone with their tedious passing before giving it to messi to do his thing.

Madrid were at least entertaining and 3 CL on the spin when it had never been done before twice in a row plus 1 league title is more impressive than 3 la liga titles and 2 CL which were not back to back.

as for dodgy reffing, they don't call them UEFALona for nothing, if you want to mention Karius in one game throwing a ball in, why not mention all of the dodgy decisions Barca have had over the years - the 4 stonewall penalities turned down at Stamford Bridge for Chelsea for example, you will never see a clearer case of f1xing than that from a ref.
Report thelatarps November 26, 2018 7:49 PM GMT
Four 'stonewall penalties'?
Really?
STONEWALL?
you do realise a penalty kick is a judgement call from the official and not an actual fact.
The ball crossing the line is a measurable fact.
Wether two blokes coming together is a foul or not is an opinion. Of the Ref.

From memory of those four incidents, the first was a dive under minimal contact by cashley.
The second was a ballooning shot which hit abidals hands as he tried to protect his face.
This was in the time before such an offence became an automatic infringement.
Another was droggers throwing himself to the floor at a set piece
The fourth may or may not have been a foul but by then Mr Henning Ovrebo had probably convinced himself that chelseas only real tactic was diving for pens.
I think CHelsea had less possession that night than the 19% that celtic managed at parkhead in their much decried victory over barca a few years later.
Funny how the english press like to report these things.

Anyhow.
Barca with 80% possn beating chelsea and their non-existent four stonewall pens does not compare with Real getting a tame ref in every round of the knock out phase to secure a very undeserved and rancid third title win.
Just sayin.
Report scandanavian_haven November 26, 2018 7:51 PM GMT
no they were definte pens, and as said, they're called uefalona for a reason, plenty of dodgy decisions for them over the years.
Report thelatarps November 26, 2018 8:06 PM GMT
So if you were in the place of tom henning ovrebo that night you would have awarded all four pens?
Fly me
If they ever put you in charge of VAR scandi do tell so we can all lump on the overs.
This is what is going on with the champions league.
UEFA are sh1t scared of the power of the epl so in order to make their title more important they feel they have to at least have one of real or barca in the final.
It brings in the viewers and the cash.
Its not corruption per se, its just that refs know what side their cards are marked.

I do agree with your assessment of the current version of Barca. The day they beat PSG 6-1 was one of the worst examples of referee manufactured results I have ever seen.
I recall Cavani through one on one in the penalty box being cut down by Mascherano with the score at 4-1. ANd the ref bottled both penalty and red card. ANd then he goes up the other end and gives a pen to Suarez. Who was already on a yellow for an earlier incident of simulation.
I found it disgusting and the uninformed euphoria in the media afterwards made my blood boil.
However.
The pep version of barca was so dominant, the chelsea game is the only one I can think of alleged ref bias. And I refute it.
That Barca team was so good in possession. I dont care if it was boring tiki-taka, the other team couldnt get a kick. Head and shoulders the best I have seen.
Sorry
Report scandanavian_haven November 26, 2018 8:17 PM GMT
Great teams dominate playing great football, if tika taka to you is stimulating then ok, looked at those pens again in youtube, cert pens. Barca are uefa's pet. Having Messi in the comp for as long as possible is great for them.
Report thelatarps November 26, 2018 8:30 PM GMT
I am sorry scandi but i find it hard to have any sympathy for a team who had 20% ball moaning about the ref.
If memory serves, I would have considered one of those appeals from chelsea that night as deservig of a pen, maybe.
The others were just desperate.
To me the vast majority of penalty kick decisions could go either way.
Its just the refs call.
I can think of very few actual stonewall pens. Last season there was one i remember when matt ritchie of newcastle slid in on victor moses of chelsea. It was a last ditch thing and he missed the ball and got the player.
You look at all this jostling in the area at corners.
The attacking teams are just as guilty as the defenders in most cases. The ref could call a foul on anyone.
The world cup was absolute dogsh1t for me.
Without the influence of VAR there would have been considerably less goals than in brazil but because of the high level of incident the tournament was a success.
Anyway. Like i said.
Most pens are a 50-50 call at best. Its when all those calls go in Real's favour game after game when alarm bells start ringing for me.
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