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Eventually, The Law has declared they were illegally killed.
Justice - at long last.
RIP
Justice - at long last.
RIP
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Of course there was pushing. If a crowd is 70 deep and they all push a little then by the time all that force gets to the front it is immense. The crowds behaviour was a contributing factor.
However gentle pushing goes on in all crowds. It is to be expected. The problem with Hillsborough was in the design of that end. The ground should never have been used for big matches. The FA should never have awarded it to Hillsborough and the Local Authority should have stopped the match taking place. Even the Police could have stopped it.
Accidents only happen when every safety measure fails at the same time. Hopefully football has learned all the lessons and hopefully no one else will die at a football match because of incompetence and negligence.
However gentle pushing goes on in all crowds. It is to be expected. The problem with Hillsborough was in the design of that end. The ground should never have been used for big matches. The FA should never have awarded it to Hillsborough and the Local Authority should have stopped the match taking place. Even the Police could have stopped it.
Accidents only happen when every safety measure fails at the same time. Hopefully football has learned all the lessons and hopefully no one else will die at a football match because of incompetence and negligence.
Do you not think the jury considered y'know physics and all that? Do you not think SYP and others tried to blame it on pushing?
And yet - to a man - the jury believed the actions of the fans (or the "crowd's behaviour") played no part in the deaths and was not a "contributing factor". Now either you've studied this more than the members of the jury (doubt it), are smarter than the average bear (I'd be amazed) or you're just a whopper who can't quite let his many years of prejudice go.
And yet - to a man - the jury believed the actions of the fans (or the "crowd's behaviour") played no part in the deaths and was not a "contributing factor". Now either you've studied this more than the members of the jury (doubt it), are smarter than the average bear (I'd be amazed) or you're just a whopper who can't quite let his many years of prejudice go.
qwerty135 29 Apr 16 02:42
The verdicts of the individual jurors are related contingencies I meant. If one makes a strong argument about any particular point, they're likely to sway others, and some people just want to be with the majority
Jury also probably swayed by the 'over zealous' wall to wall media coverage, which rightly or wrongly over sympathized the plight of the fans, .....knowing the fact if anyone
outside court proceedings who would slightly question the role of the fans on that day would probably be put down as a troll.
The verdicts of the individual jurors are related contingencies I meant. If one makes a strong argument about any particular point, they're likely to sway others, and some people just want to be with the majority
Jury also probably swayed by the 'over zealous' wall to wall media coverage, which rightly or wrongly over sympathized the plight of the fans, .....knowing the fact if anyone
outside court proceedings who would slightly question the role of the fans on that day would probably be put down as a troll.
"Seven people moving at once can bend steel."
It goes way beyond "pushing" when a panicked crowd moves as one.
qwerty135 29 Apr 16 00:48
Yes there was a cover-up, and yes there was a smear campaign, but it beggars belief to say that there weren't people pushing to get in the ground. If it had been a family member of mine that had died, they'd be the people I'd blame most for the deaths.
Unfortunately, Justice for the 96 campaign somehow got mixed up with Justice for the integrity of the Liverpool fans. Due to the mis-reporting on that day.
Yes there was a cover-up, and yes there was a smear campaign, but it beggars belief to say that there weren't people pushing to get in the ground. If it had been a family member of mine that had died, they'd be the people I'd blame most for the deaths.
Unfortunately, Justice for the 96 campaign somehow got mixed up with Justice for the integrity of the Liverpool fans. Due to the mis-reporting on that day.
Jeez!
push
/pʊʃ/
verb
gerund or present participle: pushing
1.
exert force on (someone or something) in order to move them away from oneself.
Was there pushing then?
Of course there was, just like there is in every high street shop, every pub bar....everywhere a crowd (ooooh please define 'crowd' now for me!) of people gather together.
Was this to be expected at a football match?
Could this have beem ameliorated by the Police on the day - by asking for a delay in the game for example?
Was this 'pushing' turned into wholesale slaughter by the Police action, specifically the opening of the gate?
I suggest these are the points at issue which were crawled over for 2 years - not the definition of 'pushing' or anything to do with phooking Physics!
push
/pʊʃ/
verb
gerund or present participle: pushing
1.
exert force on (someone or something) in order to move them away from oneself.
Was there pushing then?
Of course there was, just like there is in every high street shop, every pub bar....everywhere a crowd (ooooh please define 'crowd' now for me!) of people gather together.
Was this to be expected at a football match?
Could this have beem ameliorated by the Police on the day - by asking for a delay in the game for example?
Was this 'pushing' turned into wholesale slaughter by the Police action, specifically the opening of the gate?
I suggest these are the points at issue which were crawled over for 2 years - not the definition of 'pushing' or anything to do with phooking Physics!
Most of what scientists know about stampedes comes from anecdotal sources, which suggest that human psychology undergoes a change when people are forced into tight spaces, especially when about 10 people are crowded into one square meter—the equivalent of about 1,000 in a mid-sized classroom. Under such pressure, crowds tend to move as one and ignore alternate exits, accelerating the possibility of disaster.
roger, we're not talking pushing like there is in every high street, every pub bar we're talking crushing like at the Hajj or the Love Parade. The physics is important.
I have every sympathy for the people involved and their families and I hope justice prevails, covering it up was a disgrace.
But so was Heysel, I don't see that being dragged up every single year
So seriously can we now put this to bed and move on from it, as sympathetic as I am, the whole thing really needs dropping now, from supporters and media alike.
But so was Heysel, I don't see that being dragged up every single year
So seriously can we now put this to bed and move on from it, as sympathetic as I am, the whole thing really needs dropping now, from supporters and media alike.
PorcupineorPineapple you can't argue with the laws of physics. If there was a crush outside the ground, as is reported and accepted, then there must have been pushing.
The jury can deliver whatever emotional verdict they want but the laws of the physics say they are wrong.
As I said in my previous post that pushing should not have caused the tragedy. Many many other mistakes had to happen for those poor people to lose their lives.
The jury can deliver whatever emotional verdict they want but the laws of the physics say they are wrong.
As I said in my previous post that pushing should not have caused the tragedy. Many many other mistakes had to happen for those poor people to lose their lives.
Your description of the verdict as emotional just shows your own emotional bias. Maybe you should take time to read the full transcripts before dismissing them so glibly and asserting your own pre-conceived opinion above those who've given years of their lives to study every last detail of the case.
Physics tells us that the fencing was not for the benefit of the people being penned in like animals and safety precautions were ignored.
If the fence hadn't been there the crowd would have surged forward onto the pitch and the disaster would have been averted.
If the fence hadn't been there the crowd would have surged forward onto the pitch and the disaster would have been averted.
Whisperingdeath 28 Apr 16 19:10 Joined: 25 Dec 11 | Topic/replies: 9,752 | Blogger: Whisperingdeath's blog
The cover up has masonic implications too
Evidence?
Any idea how many Freemasons might have been in the Leppings lane enclosures?
The cover up has masonic implications too
Evidence?
Any idea how many Freemasons might have been in the Leppings lane enclosures?
PorcupineorPineapple My opinion is based not on emotion but the stone cold hard facts of physics. If you disagree fine but don't expect me to believe a crush can occur without pushing.
What were the guys running across the top of the turnstiles doing?
According to Lord Justice Taylor the guys running across the top of the turnstiles were avoiding the crush rather than gaining free entry since most of them had tickets.
see from about 05:25 - http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html
see from about 05:25 - http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html
Yes that makes so much more sense. Some might say they had been climbing over the turnstile one by one for an hour or so. But being as Lord Taylor says otherwise in his report, that's good enough for me
This has enabled investigators to assess whether there may be some correlation with individuals involved in decision-making around Hillsborough, according to the IPCC.
The hearings in Warrington also heard evidence from a police constable who said he had heard 'a substantial meeting' of senior officers, including allegedly Mr Duckenfield, took place in the days after the disaster.
The officer said it was rumoured that most of the officers were Masons and it was said they were trying to blame Superintendent Roger Marshall for asking for the exit gate at Leppings Lane to be opened.
It was not unexpected in my mind where the police are ‘masons’, that they have been banned from working on the criminal investigation into the cover-up of the Hillsborough disaster and where the Plebgate saga could well be a party to another cover-up internally by the police fraternity who are ‘masons’.
No evidence alias. Just something that needs to be looked into. There is plenty of evidence of a cover up...by whom and why?
The hearings in Warrington also heard evidence from a police constable who said he had heard 'a substantial meeting' of senior officers, including allegedly Mr Duckenfield, took place in the days after the disaster.
The officer said it was rumoured that most of the officers were Masons and it was said they were trying to blame Superintendent Roger Marshall for asking for the exit gate at Leppings Lane to be opened.
It was not unexpected in my mind where the police are ‘masons’, that they have been banned from working on the criminal investigation into the cover-up of the Hillsborough disaster and where the Plebgate saga could well be a party to another cover-up internally by the police fraternity who are ‘masons’.
No evidence alias. Just something that needs to be looked into. There is plenty of evidence of a cover up...by whom and why?
The people who are saying there were too many fans in the end hence the crush misunderstand. There were too many people, but only in the central pens. The side pens were far below capacity.
Although there may have been the odd fan who climbed over the turnstiles (the number of people on the LL terrace has been counted and it was almost exactly the capacity of the end as a whole) the inescapable fact is that the fans who should have been spread out through several pens were not directed away from the central pens.
Once the gate was open the fans (naturally) poured through the tunnel in front of them which led to only one place - the central pens. From then on tragedy was unavoidable.
If that tunnel had been closed as it had in previous years once the capacity of the central pens had been reached, and fans had been directed round the sides of the stand instead of through the tunnel they would have gone to the side pens, the central pens would have been at or below capacity instead of far far above it.
Although there may have been the odd fan who climbed over the turnstiles (the number of people on the LL terrace has been counted and it was almost exactly the capacity of the end as a whole) the inescapable fact is that the fans who should have been spread out through several pens were not directed away from the central pens.
Once the gate was open the fans (naturally) poured through the tunnel in front of them which led to only one place - the central pens. From then on tragedy was unavoidable.
If that tunnel had been closed as it had in previous years once the capacity of the central pens had been reached, and fans had been directed round the sides of the stand instead of through the tunnel they would have gone to the side pens, the central pens would have been at or below capacity instead of far far above it.
That obviously makes a lot of sense Marychain in a nut shell. If the "odd fan who climbed over the turnstiles" was only a few. In the footage we see 5 in 15 seconds, that's 20 a minute, big if but if that was going on for an hour it's 1200.
But anyway I know I've said too much, seems you only want justice if you are happy to just blame the police.
Being there as a young man was the worst experience of my life
But anyway I know I've said too much, seems you only want justice if you are happy to just blame the police.
Being there as a young man was the worst experience of my life
On the one hand you're trying to blame hordes of people coming over the wall at a rate of 1 every 3 seconds for an hour then on the other it was the worst experience of your life. That doesn't ring true.
No evidence alias. Just something that needs to be looked into. There is plenty of evidence of a cover up...by whom and why?
Thatcher and co? Police etc? There are plenty of obvious suspects, but you obviously have an axe to grind re masons. Again, how many do you suppose may have been in the Leppings lane pens? How many of the victims may have been masons?
Thatcher and co? Police etc? There are plenty of obvious suspects, but you obviously have an axe to grind re masons. Again, how many do you suppose may have been in the Leppings lane pens? How many of the victims may have been masons?
akabula
akabula 27 Apr 16 19:22 Joined: 13 Mar 08 | Topic/replies: 18,900 | Blogger: akabula's blog
I see the SNP activist Wings Over Scotland is still blaming the fans on his twitter account. Lowlife piece of scum that he is.
The man is stating the patently obvious, just as OnePercenter has argued on this thread. Would YOU tell us what is inaccurate about claiming that without pushing, there would be no crush and therefore no deaths? An unlikely scenario yes, given the numbers of people, but nevertheless absolutely true, and quite different from "blaming" the fans.
If you're looking for "lowlife scum", go dig up your beloved b1tch Thatcher and all the members of her regime for initiating and perpetrating hell for the families of 96 victims for over a quarter of a century.
You just can't help yourself can you? Any opportunity to try and blacken any left winger or supporter of Scottish Independence and you jump right in. I could almost mistake you for a Daily Mail journalist if you had a smidgeon more intelligence.
akabula 27 Apr 16 19:22 Joined: 13 Mar 08 | Topic/replies: 18,900 | Blogger: akabula's blog
I see the SNP activist Wings Over Scotland is still blaming the fans on his twitter account. Lowlife piece of scum that he is.
The man is stating the patently obvious, just as OnePercenter has argued on this thread. Would YOU tell us what is inaccurate about claiming that without pushing, there would be no crush and therefore no deaths? An unlikely scenario yes, given the numbers of people, but nevertheless absolutely true, and quite different from "blaming" the fans.
If you're looking for "lowlife scum", go dig up your beloved b1tch Thatcher and all the members of her regime for initiating and perpetrating hell for the families of 96 victims for over a quarter of a century.
You just can't help yourself can you? Any opportunity to try and blacken any left winger or supporter of Scottish Independence and you jump right in. I could almost mistake you for a Daily Mail journalist if you had a smidgeon more intelligence.
The term 'pens'says a it all about the attitude of clubs, police and govt towards fans - seen on the same level as cattle and not humans 
Thatcher and co?
It's already been established that the cover-up started straight after the tragedy. We all know Thatcher was ruthlessly efficient but even she would have struggled to phone the commanding officer and tell him to deny opening the gate.
It's already been established that the cover-up started straight after the tragedy. We all know Thatcher was ruthlessly efficient but even she would have struggled to phone the commanding officer and tell him to deny opening the gate.
The cover up was managed by senior police and politicians.
Do you mean local politicians say on the Police committees or national politicians in government?
Well the Tories were in power when it happened so it must be down to Hurd & Thatcher. Funny how none of the 6 Labour Home Secretaries ever thought of spilling the beans on Thatcher. Never knew people like Blunket & John Reid liked the old bat.
Forget cross party rivalry - these cants look after each other's back.
Eg Labour too busy covering up the lies with Iraq and the Banking Crisis. The Tories have not opened up either since coming to power.
Yes every Labour Party voter was let down by Blair and cronies and although nothing to do with David Cameron- he done the decent thing and apologised.
Eg Labour too busy covering up the lies with Iraq and the Banking Crisis. The Tories have not opened up either since coming to power.
Yes every Labour Party voter was let down by Blair and cronies and although nothing to do with David Cameron- he done the decent thing and apologised.
carlisle vice chairman gone for spouting the same carp thats being spouted
on this thread.
there are some bitter folk around
on this thread.
there are some bitter folk around
Those verdicts were 7-2 in Warrington which is too close to Liverpool..
Hats off to the two jurors that were not scared by the screaming compensation claimants in the gallery...
Hats off to the two jurors that were not scared by the screaming compensation claimants in the gallery...
As an aside I would wager the other seven were scared s hitless..
Not a day to triumph democracy....
Not a day to triumph democracy....
Jack Straw was a complete **** when he was home secretary, met the families and decided not to open up the case again
Alias,
I think the focus on the masons was the fact that Duckenfield got the job through his masonic ties and that they tried to protect him by wantong to shift the blame on another police office. Both these theories need investigating.
I don't know anything about the masons and am not really interested. I just want to know who instigted the cover up and who supported them. I thought the cover up at higher establishment and government levels were due to masonic influence. Of this I don't really know anything but how on earth did they whoever they are get away with this for so long?
I still think the FA are getting away with it scott free.
I think the focus on the masons was the fact that Duckenfield got the job through his masonic ties and that they tried to protect him by wantong to shift the blame on another police office. Both these theories need investigating.
I don't know anything about the masons and am not really interested. I just want to know who instigted the cover up and who supported them. I thought the cover up at higher establishment and government levels were due to masonic influence. Of this I don't really know anything but how on earth did they whoever they are get away with this for so long?
I still think the FA are getting away with it scott free.
Those were the days in football..
Those of us that travelled to matches were out of control..
The Police were similarly looking for a fight because they were targeted and what could you expect but to be treated like animals if you were pissed and looking to get in for free..
The whole Hillsboro affair was an accident waiting to happen and to put the blame on anyone is to judge the past as the present..
Unfortunately the Compensation culture has moved in...
Those of us that travelled to matches were out of control..
The Police were similarly looking for a fight because they were targeted and what could you expect but to be treated like animals if you were pissed and looking to get in for free..
The whole Hillsboro affair was an accident waiting to happen and to put the blame on anyone is to judge the past as the present..
Unfortunately the Compensation culture has moved in...
Nobody is judging the past on the present - there was organised corruption preventing the true course of justice in place at the time.
Errors of judgement - people can accept but gross negligence was a criminal offence at the time.
Corruption and perverting the course of justice also criminal offences at the time.
Justice for the 96 please.
No surrender from Chelsea
Errors of judgement - people can accept but gross negligence was a criminal offence at the time.
Corruption and perverting the course of justice also criminal offences at the time.
Justice for the 96 please.
No surrender from Chelsea
I was actually at the European Cup final in Rotterdam in 1982 and the ground was half empty..
Lots of jousting in the streets though...
Lots of jousting in the streets though...
Good post by homefortea, I think most football people from the 70s and 80s would agree
Was a terrible accident and accidental death is my opinion. To blame everyone but the fans, not just Liverpool fans but football fans who couldnt behave themselves throughout history. Without all the hooligism in the first place we wouldn't have had to have been penned in kid animals.
Was a terrible accident and accidental death is my opinion. To blame everyone but the fans, not just Liverpool fans but football fans who couldnt behave themselves throughout history. Without all the hooligism in the first place we wouldn't have had to have been penned in kid animals.
Liverpool and man utds away support was huge at the time, prob still is, we've not played them in decades. I've been in the city ground when the ground keeps filling up throughout the game, Liverpool and Utd fans 100's of them sitting on floodlights and scoreboards their end as got so full. Then a Liverpool or Utd goal and there's cheers from all over the ground where they've found a way in
Think we can all agree that footall fans weren't angels in those days. The point is it seems to be mainly fans of Liverpool's rivals that are determined to make these points but the reality is that the exact same thing would have happened that day no matter which team had been given the Leppings Lane End.
I'd agree with that marychain, nothing to do with rivalry here, in fact I'd say completely the opposite. But the fact is we are talking about Liverpool fans that can't change.
Anyone who has caused trouble at a football match is partly responsible for the Hillsborough tragedy......that's why fences and pens were used, why the police formed a line to stop fans attacking each other. You cannot solely blame the police
Duckenfield and the force should be prosecuted for the subsequent cover up .......rather than the action or non action they took on the day
Duckenfield and the force should be prosecuted for the subsequent cover up .......rather than the action or non action they took on the day
I don't believe your can avoid apportioning blame on the fans, and any verdict that does appears to be playing to the gallery IMO.
You don't have to get involved with the argument of conduct on the day to see that blame is still appropriate because of the details. It's about cause and effect, the case has been made about senior police errors and a potential cover up so I'll not dwell on that, but the assessment of the number of ticketless fans is IMO flawed.
The Taylor report went into this subject in quite some detail, but still not enough and lacked scrutiny to give a complete picture. Ticketless fans didn't end up exclusively in pens 2 and 3, accessed through turnstiles A-G, they also paid in through gates 1-16. The north east section was the third most rammed section after pens 2 and 3 but because nobody died there the 2900 capacity figure was simply added to the sum of the A-G figures plus the estimated sum of fans entering through gate C.
This IMO is an error. The true figure of ticketless fans should be
(The number through turnstiles 1-16 + the numbers through A-G + the estimated figure through gate C + the number of fans still outside when the game was stopped) minus 10100 which was the capacity sold tickets.
The reason the north east section didn't crush was not because it wasn't crowded but because of the way fans enter that stand is different to the way they enter pens 2 and 3.
The figure is more substantial therefore than they have lead people to believe.
Those substantial tickles fans slowed down the processing through the turnstiles since the pre game estimates had calculated 1000 people an hour would pass through each due to simply showing tickets......this didn't happen due to the opportunism of fans attempting to pay in....this then added to the frustration and crushing outside the ground which lead to the flawed combination of opening gate C without sufficient guiding to stop a rapid influx into pens 2 and 3.
They are all parts of the same problem, you can't cherry pick blame to fit on everyone else except for the fans, the fans contributed, emotion shouldn't cloud fact.
You don't have to get involved with the argument of conduct on the day to see that blame is still appropriate because of the details. It's about cause and effect, the case has been made about senior police errors and a potential cover up so I'll not dwell on that, but the assessment of the number of ticketless fans is IMO flawed.
The Taylor report went into this subject in quite some detail, but still not enough and lacked scrutiny to give a complete picture. Ticketless fans didn't end up exclusively in pens 2 and 3, accessed through turnstiles A-G, they also paid in through gates 1-16. The north east section was the third most rammed section after pens 2 and 3 but because nobody died there the 2900 capacity figure was simply added to the sum of the A-G figures plus the estimated sum of fans entering through gate C.
This IMO is an error. The true figure of ticketless fans should be
(The number through turnstiles 1-16 + the numbers through A-G + the estimated figure through gate C + the number of fans still outside when the game was stopped) minus 10100 which was the capacity sold tickets.
The reason the north east section didn't crush was not because it wasn't crowded but because of the way fans enter that stand is different to the way they enter pens 2 and 3.
The figure is more substantial therefore than they have lead people to believe.
Those substantial tickles fans slowed down the processing through the turnstiles since the pre game estimates had calculated 1000 people an hour would pass through each due to simply showing tickets......this didn't happen due to the opportunism of fans attempting to pay in....this then added to the frustration and crushing outside the ground which lead to the flawed combination of opening gate C without sufficient guiding to stop a rapid influx into pens 2 and 3.
They are all parts of the same problem, you can't cherry pick blame to fit on everyone else except for the fans, the fans contributed, emotion shouldn't cloud fact.
Some good points made about Liverpool fans in general at the time. A number were no doubt feral scum. I've heard stories of European away days robbing the ferries and terrorising families with their disgusting behaviour etc. It is no wonder that The English fans are targeted all over Europe even now.
Having said that the people who died weren't necessary of that ilk, probably none of them were. This is why I find the criticism of Liverpool fans on the day unfair to a large degree. The arguments about pushing are nonsensical. If you are in a crowd there is pressure from behind, football, music festivals, the tube.
Forgetting the gross negligence it is just the way the dead and their families were treated that I find beyond the pale. Why would you test the dead bodies of children for alcohol? Who thought of doing that? The cover up was orchestrated. Again we need to know by who and why.
Having said that the people who died weren't necessary of that ilk, probably none of them were. This is why I find the criticism of Liverpool fans on the day unfair to a large degree. The arguments about pushing are nonsensical. If you are in a crowd there is pressure from behind, football, music festivals, the tube.
Forgetting the gross negligence it is just the way the dead and their families were treated that I find beyond the pale. Why would you test the dead bodies of children for alcohol? Who thought of doing that? The cover up was orchestrated. Again we need to know by who and why.
I watched the ESPN 30 for 30 2014 documentary yesterday, it's pretty conclusive.
I have to confess that being a fan who regularly went on the hillsborough kop when terracing was still around I was quite hard hearted knowing what I did of fans conduct and the culture and history of Liverpool support.
I still can't see them as innocent having watched all the docs and read the Taylor report, but what I do have now is an appreciation of what the families went through. The coroners stopping the mothers touch their dead kind of resonates.
It's really hard seeing the transition of blame from what we know was incompetence and areas of deceit, that originated from a climate that was of fabrication of fans behaviour (but which still has absolutes that can't be denied) through to an almost militant campaign to find reasons to dismantle it.
Sure one could say the truth will out, but this isn't truth IMO, it's a technicality that simply draws out the lie of the fabrication, it doesn't condem fans for turning up without tickets, nor has it quashed some conduct of anti establishment resentment against the police for them doing a job having previous experience with chancers....you could say the fact dogs were called before ambulances was the epitome of that.
HIP was just the latest version of attempts to get what they wanted, and no doubt had they not found redacted statements they'd have come back again with some other effort. Seeing vociferous Liverpool support demanding we all continue to acknowledge and respect their plight because they didn't like the fact that the police blamed them was always more like vindictiveness that vindication.
That's not to say the families wernt badly treated and questions still have to be asked of the cover up....but blameless, I'm sorry, no.
I have to confess that being a fan who regularly went on the hillsborough kop when terracing was still around I was quite hard hearted knowing what I did of fans conduct and the culture and history of Liverpool support.
I still can't see them as innocent having watched all the docs and read the Taylor report, but what I do have now is an appreciation of what the families went through. The coroners stopping the mothers touch their dead kind of resonates.
It's really hard seeing the transition of blame from what we know was incompetence and areas of deceit, that originated from a climate that was of fabrication of fans behaviour (but which still has absolutes that can't be denied) through to an almost militant campaign to find reasons to dismantle it.
Sure one could say the truth will out, but this isn't truth IMO, it's a technicality that simply draws out the lie of the fabrication, it doesn't condem fans for turning up without tickets, nor has it quashed some conduct of anti establishment resentment against the police for them doing a job having previous experience with chancers....you could say the fact dogs were called before ambulances was the epitome of that.
HIP was just the latest version of attempts to get what they wanted, and no doubt had they not found redacted statements they'd have come back again with some other effort. Seeing vociferous Liverpool support demanding we all continue to acknowledge and respect their plight because they didn't like the fact that the police blamed them was always more like vindictiveness that vindication.
That's not to say the families wernt badly treated and questions still have to be asked of the cover up....but blameless, I'm sorry, no.
Seeing vociferous Liverpool support demanding we all continue to acknowledge and respect their plight because they didn't like the fact that the police blamed them was always more like vindictiveness that vindication.
They didn't like the fact the police blamed them? Dear lord do you really think that was all it was about?
They didn't like the fact the police blamed them? Dear lord do you really think that was all it was about?
The families wernt there, and many of them wouldn't hear a bad word said of any of them, but they didn't know whether they were innocent or guilty, they just insisted they were innocent....which in some of the cases they were, but as a whole some blame still needs apportioning to the fans.
People will say 'ticketless fans have always turned up, and some have always tried it on'
That's true they did, but it was still wrong whether they were drunk or not, their presence added to the scenario. Sure many other times problems were averted, but in effect all it did was establish a norm which made people blasé and stored up the problem until which time those in command wernt upto the job of dealing with it.
People will say 'ticketless fans have always turned up, and some have always tried it on'
That's true they did, but it was still wrong whether they were drunk or not, their presence added to the scenario. Sure many other times problems were averted, but in effect all it did was establish a norm which made people blasé and stored up the problem until which time those in command wernt upto the job of dealing with it.
Should've had dustybin on the that jury......However, whether or not he would returned the same verdict in that environment is a different matter.
blx did it.the fact it was played at a ground which had previous was the first cause.
the police not acting in a proper manner was the other reason.
even today not all fans get in on time and have booze in their system.
the only reason why there will be no ticketless fans today is because they have controls in place....ie.all seater stadiums.
where are the ticketless fans gonna sit these days?
if your gonna blame ticketless fans then you aportion blame on any fan who has ever got in a ground without a ticket....or the lack of controls to stop them.
the police not acting in a proper manner was the other reason.
even today not all fans get in on time and have booze in their system.
the only reason why there will be no ticketless fans today is because they have controls in place....ie.all seater stadiums.
where are the ticketless fans gonna sit these days?
if your gonna blame ticketless fans then you aportion blame on any fan who has ever got in a ground without a ticket....or the lack of controls to stop them.
Have to remember that if I ever kill anyone by speeding......Blame the car.
Not sure why it's so important to you that a certain amount of blame should be placed on Liverpool fans?
There have been countless numbers of times over the years where fans have turned up ticketless, where potentially dangerous crushes have developed inside and outside grounds and it didn't lead to the deaths of 96 people. On that very day I was at Leicester with Chelsea for a game where a win would have seen Chelsea promoted back to the old 1st Division. There were ticketless fans there and the terraces got dangerously overcrowded. In the 2 years beforehand I can think of 4 other times where things got worryingly crowded on terraces. Thankfully, it didn't lead to the kind of situation that developed at Hillsborough but something like that had almost become an inevitability to happen sooner or later.
The reason it did on this particular day is because of a catastrophic failure in planning beforehand and dealing with the situation by the police on that day. That's the point here, fans turning up without tickets or the normal jostling amongst a large crowd of people does not have to lead to fatalities. However, you're relying on a huge amount of luck to get away with the police actions before and during that game. Quite simply it's the police's job to make sure they're not relying on luck to keep people safe at a football match and that day the luck ran out.
There have been countless numbers of times over the years where fans have turned up ticketless, where potentially dangerous crushes have developed inside and outside grounds and it didn't lead to the deaths of 96 people. On that very day I was at Leicester with Chelsea for a game where a win would have seen Chelsea promoted back to the old 1st Division. There were ticketless fans there and the terraces got dangerously overcrowded. In the 2 years beforehand I can think of 4 other times where things got worryingly crowded on terraces. Thankfully, it didn't lead to the kind of situation that developed at Hillsborough but something like that had almost become an inevitability to happen sooner or later.
The reason it did on this particular day is because of a catastrophic failure in planning beforehand and dealing with the situation by the police on that day. That's the point here, fans turning up without tickets or the normal jostling amongst a large crowd of people does not have to lead to fatalities. However, you're relying on a huge amount of luck to get away with the police actions before and during that game. Quite simply it's the police's job to make sure they're not relying on luck to keep people safe at a football match and that day the luck ran out.
For much of that statement we are in agreement; that luck and the abilities of those policing were able to avert a disaster, but at hillsborough on that occasion the policing failed.
It's really important I think to clarify the policing issue. There's been a generation now between what happens today and what was happening then so people see it differently.
The letter of the law was that the police were there to keep people safe, but safe can be rather arbitrary a term.
The reality was that the police were to keep people away from other people who were tribal, to crack heads if need be, we all can attest to seeing why coppers would have taken a dim view first and been a nanny the second.
If it was just a case of looking after fans then why the dogs and horses?
I watched an Irish coverage of the disaster which was focussed on the 6 mins of the game that was played and it wasn't the usual one that was used for the news....in it you could hear the forest fans booing the Liverpool fans for climbing onto the pitch. Were they wrong to to assume the scousers were causing trouble and not infact in trouble?
The same accusation was made of rank and file officers who were told to form a cordon across the pitch, why weren't they helping?
Because they were told to keep fans apart based on the knowledge of the day, like mentioned until this time people have played hard and fast but we all got away with it....until this day.
I actually pity those plod, it wasn't their fault it was those who didn't tell them to stop the influx going down into an already congested pen 2 and 3......
But the fact remains that delays dealing with tickletless fans contributed to delays which further frustrated crowds outside which resulted in gate C being opened.
My whole point isn't to say the families are winging scousers with their hands out, I'm saying the verdict was undermined by giving an outcome which didn't use logic completely, warts and all.
It's really important I think to clarify the policing issue. There's been a generation now between what happens today and what was happening then so people see it differently.
The letter of the law was that the police were there to keep people safe, but safe can be rather arbitrary a term.
The reality was that the police were to keep people away from other people who were tribal, to crack heads if need be, we all can attest to seeing why coppers would have taken a dim view first and been a nanny the second.
If it was just a case of looking after fans then why the dogs and horses?
I watched an Irish coverage of the disaster which was focussed on the 6 mins of the game that was played and it wasn't the usual one that was used for the news....in it you could hear the forest fans booing the Liverpool fans for climbing onto the pitch. Were they wrong to to assume the scousers were causing trouble and not infact in trouble?
The same accusation was made of rank and file officers who were told to form a cordon across the pitch, why weren't they helping?
Because they were told to keep fans apart based on the knowledge of the day, like mentioned until this time people have played hard and fast but we all got away with it....until this day.
I actually pity those plod, it wasn't their fault it was those who didn't tell them to stop the influx going down into an already congested pen 2 and 3......
But the fact remains that delays dealing with tickletless fans contributed to delays which further frustrated crowds outside which resulted in gate C being opened.
My whole point isn't to say the families are winging scousers with their hands out, I'm saying the verdict was undermined by giving an outcome which didn't use logic completely, warts and all.
https://youtu.be/znB4GWJWPY0
The above is a clip from 1986. West Ham at QPR the infamous ticket fraud game where so many fake tickets were sold, Loftus Road was way over capacity.
I was behind the goal and if there had been fences I'm not sure how many would have got out...
Start watching from around the 3.40 mark. You'll see a lad carried away unconscious. Notice the police horses! I counted 7. Crowd control, NOT crowd safety. There was not one ounce of trouble yet the police (this time the Met) reaction is one of containment not help.
The singing tells you it wasn't a lethal situation but it could easily have been.
The above is a clip from 1986. West Ham at QPR the infamous ticket fraud game where so many fake tickets were sold, Loftus Road was way over capacity.
I was behind the goal and if there had been fences I'm not sure how many would have got out...
Start watching from around the 3.40 mark. You'll see a lad carried away unconscious. Notice the police horses! I counted 7. Crowd control, NOT crowd safety. There was not one ounce of trouble yet the police (this time the Met) reaction is one of containment not help.
The singing tells you it wasn't a lethal situation but it could easily have been.
Great first goal for QPR.
I just about remember Gary Bannister at wednesday, he was a hero here, but it was just before I started going.
I remember QPR coming to hillsborough and getting arse raped 7-1, think Id have got a goal had I managed to get on the pitch that day.
I says to me old man, 'Is it like this every week'
Strange seeing that little loftus road with no gates and people just stepping onto the carpet, it must have been like nipping to the kitchen for a lager while at home watching football.
I just about remember Gary Bannister at wednesday, he was a hero here, but it was just before I started going.
I remember QPR coming to hillsborough and getting arse raped 7-1, think Id have got a goal had I managed to get on the pitch that day.
I says to me old man, 'Is it like this every week'
Strange seeing that little loftus road with no gates and people just stepping onto the carpet, it must have been like nipping to the kitchen for a lager while at home watching football.
This myth about ticketless fans is just that, a myth. I purchased 3 £6 tickets from the LFC ticket office for The Leppings Lane on the Friday before the game (14th April). The Taylor report stated ticketless fans had no part to play in the disaster. The independent enquiry 4 years found that ticketless fans, & the Liverpool supporters in general had no part to play in the disaster. A few days ago, a jury, after listening to 2 years of evidence, came to the same conclusion.
Am I missing something here ?
Am I missing something here ?
why did liverpool fans sneak into so many other games ticketless but not this one?
I was at the man utd everton semi final the other week and there was plenty doing it there, i find it hard to believe no one did this in 1989, esp when liverpool fans were known for doing it
It doesn't make sense to me
I was at the man utd everton semi final the other week and there was plenty doing it there, i find it hard to believe no one did this in 1989, esp when liverpool fans were known for doing it
It doesn't make sense to me
The taylor report concluded that they probably didnt, but it also said it didnt scrutinise the number that got into the ground from leppings lane that went into the north stand or the NE section, therefore they dont have the correct figure of ticketless fans.
It also determined that those without tickets were culpable of slowing the processing of fans down that helped create the crush outside....which we know led to the turn of events that occured, so quite how he came to the conclusion of those two being true yet not relevant is mystifying.
There are also as far as I know factors that havnt been disproved, that there were groups that did cause problems outside that contributed to the crushing against the turnstyles, that some fans provoked horses with stubbing cigs out on them and that others were heard to be plotting to get the gate C open.
Now these may have been thrown out, but I havnt heard they have.
It also determined that those without tickets were culpable of slowing the processing of fans down that helped create the crush outside....which we know led to the turn of events that occured, so quite how he came to the conclusion of those two being true yet not relevant is mystifying.
There are also as far as I know factors that havnt been disproved, that there were groups that did cause problems outside that contributed to the crushing against the turnstyles, that some fans provoked horses with stubbing cigs out on them and that others were heard to be plotting to get the gate C open.
Now these may have been thrown out, but I havnt heard they have.
Duckenfield made the decision to let them in. He must have been very concerned about the crush outside the ground.
A wholly inadequate turnstile provision and a death trap of a football ground. Despite this, the SYP are being targeted by all and sundry but not the FA. Why?
A wholly inadequate turnstile provision and a death trap of a football ground. Despite this, the SYP are being targeted by all and sundry but not the FA. Why?
When it comes to compo the lawyers will go after the FA, the local authority, SYP and the ambulance service.
Someone judge or jury is going to have to proportion the blame and my guess is the FA will be found to be greatly to blame. Shear stupidity to award the game to a ground with no safety certificate and a history of trouble.
Someone judge or jury is going to have to proportion the blame and my guess is the FA will be found to be greatly to blame. Shear stupidity to award the game to a ground with no safety certificate and a history of trouble.
On the ESPN doc it revealed a fact I never knew.
That there were over 400 people hospitalised who made a full recovery.
That obviously covers all ailments, but surely some of those were saved since only 12 people died at or on the way to hospital.
For me there has been so much finger pointing people have totally missed the fact some actually (belatedly) did some good work.
That there were over 400 people hospitalised who made a full recovery.
That obviously covers all ailments, but surely some of those were saved since only 12 people died at or on the way to hospital.
For me there has been so much finger pointing people have totally missed the fact some actually (belatedly) did some good work.
I would just like to know one thing..
If we still had 500 000 miners working on the coal face how would you left wing freaks reconcile "Global Warming" with your principles..
I would love to know because I am in favour of coal mining..
If we still had 500 000 miners working on the coal face how would you left wing freaks reconcile "Global Warming" with your principles..
I would love to know because I am in favour of coal mining..
Nothing will convince me that some 'fans' do not bear a share of responsibility for what happened by turning up late and trying to get in. Clearly,what happened wasn't the responsibility of the vast majority,especially those at the front who suffered most but I cant imagine any policemen were at the back causing the crush.Some stupid decisions on the day, under pressure, but the real crime has been the cover up that has made justice so difficult to come out.
I think it has been calculated that even if some fans did get in without tickets the terrace was still under capacity.
That's true, Temple. Sheer incompetence caused the deaths. The two external pens had more than enough enough room to cope. What compounded the gates opening further was John Barnes hit the bar early doors causing a roar and intensified the rush once Pens 2&3 were opened. All predictable that fans would turn up 20 mins beforehand and all avoidable. The fans simply needed ushering to pens 1 & 4 and the tragedy would have been avoided in whole or to a lesser number of deaths.
HSE report Justice Taylor. It's well worth a read and to the few trying to score brownie points may think twice.It's incredible to believe why that report didn't see justice come to the families quicker.
HSE report Justice Taylor. It's well worth a read and to the few trying to score brownie points may think twice.It's incredible to believe why that report didn't see justice come to the families quicker.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/media/VID0002.html
This confirmed in the video that the outside crowd would take 40 to 45 mins. to disperse normally if they all decided to just go home...Ushering them all in safely into the different pens within a time frame of 8 minutes till barnsey cross bar hit would be near on impossible.
At the end of the day its up to the people who decided to rush in to see a football match for free to look at themselves in a mirror to see if they have a clear conscience. If they can do that, then no one can argue with that.
This confirmed in the video that the outside crowd would take 40 to 45 mins. to disperse normally if they all decided to just go home...Ushering them all in safely into the different pens within a time frame of 8 minutes till barnsey cross bar hit would be near on impossible.
At the end of the day its up to the people who decided to rush in to see a football match for free to look at themselves in a mirror to see if they have a clear conscience. If they can do that, then no one can argue with that.
Claim that Hillsborough deaths 'caused by late fans'
From the section Liverpool
CCTV of fans at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989
Ticketless fans who arrived "too late" caused the crush at Hillsborough which led to 96 supporters dying, a turnstile operator has told the inquests.
Stephen Copeland said it was his view that Liverpool fans "that came last, without tickets, crushed them".
Ninety-six fans died following a crush at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989.
Mr Copeland, who was 19 at the time, said the crowd had been "steady and in good spirits" before 14:15 BST, but had become inundated from that point forward.
He said he "tended to fear for my life" until Gate C was opened at 14:52, believing "the turnstiles were coming down".
The jury has previously heard that opening the gate allowed up to 2,000 fans to enter the ground in five minutes.
Mr Copeland said: "I had seen people coming through the turnstiles that didn't have a ticket or certainly didn't produce a ticket [and] who were out of breath.
Mr Copeland said he could "feel the dust from the turnstile shaking"
"They were crushed, they were scared, they were fearful, they were angry, they were annoyed and it got to the point where I was letting them in, regardless of whether they had a ticket or not, as fast as I possibly could.
"I just kept my foot on the pedal and I got them through."
He said he could "feel the crush... the turnstile rocking, I could feel the dust from the turnstile shaking".
Agreeing with an assertion that there were not enough entrances provided for the fans, Mr Copeland said he had "always believed" the disaster was caused by those who "came too late and without tickets".
"Everybody that I had talked with and I had a laugh with prior to two o'clock had come early enough and was stood at the front of the West Stand and my own personal view is that people that came last, without tickets, crushed them."
'Literally penned in'
From the section Liverpool
CCTV of fans at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989
Ticketless fans who arrived "too late" caused the crush at Hillsborough which led to 96 supporters dying, a turnstile operator has told the inquests.
Stephen Copeland said it was his view that Liverpool fans "that came last, without tickets, crushed them".
Ninety-six fans died following a crush at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest on 15 April 1989.
Mr Copeland, who was 19 at the time, said the crowd had been "steady and in good spirits" before 14:15 BST, but had become inundated from that point forward.
He said he "tended to fear for my life" until Gate C was opened at 14:52, believing "the turnstiles were coming down".
The jury has previously heard that opening the gate allowed up to 2,000 fans to enter the ground in five minutes.
Mr Copeland said: "I had seen people coming through the turnstiles that didn't have a ticket or certainly didn't produce a ticket [and] who were out of breath.
Mr Copeland said he could "feel the dust from the turnstile shaking"
"They were crushed, they were scared, they were fearful, they were angry, they were annoyed and it got to the point where I was letting them in, regardless of whether they had a ticket or not, as fast as I possibly could.
"I just kept my foot on the pedal and I got them through."
He said he could "feel the crush... the turnstile rocking, I could feel the dust from the turnstile shaking".
Agreeing with an assertion that there were not enough entrances provided for the fans, Mr Copeland said he had "always believed" the disaster was caused by those who "came too late and without tickets".
"Everybody that I had talked with and I had a laugh with prior to two o'clock had come early enough and was stood at the front of the West Stand and my own personal view is that people that came last, without tickets, crushed them."
'Literally penned in'
I think it's sad that the bitter and twisted forumites (they know who they are) continue with their spiteful and wholly incorrect assertions.
The lies and corruption have been swallowed hook, line and sinker by those who will never accept the facts that have come to light after a long and painful 27 year campaign.
I genuinely pity anybody with such inner hatred that blights their judgement.
The lies and corruption have been swallowed hook, line and sinker by those who will never accept the facts that have come to light after a long and painful 27 year campaign.
I genuinely pity anybody with such inner hatred that blights their judgement.
sad doesnt seem to be the right word charwell
one seems to have spent 2 days snapping away
it remains one of the great victories in british sport and british justice
still work to be done too
one seems to have spent 2 days snapping away
it remains one of the great victories in british sport and british justice
still work to be done too
Firstly it was Beardsley that hit the bar not Barnes......
The Taylor report doesn't say the terraces were under capacity from my interpretation, it actually goes to some length to explain how it was over capacity even without scrutinising a section.
When gate c was opened they had to use the camera to estimate how many with and without tickets entered the terraces, they hired experts to evaluate it and they came up with a figure between 1800 and 2000.
To this figure they added the collective of people who had passed through turnstiles A-G which came to something like 5400 (from memory)
The total capacity was defined as 10100 for the terraces, but that included the NW section of 2900, and the report says it conceded some fans without tickets paid or just simply got in through gates 1-16 without tickets.
The total therefore without scrutinising how over full the corner was was still something like 200 over capacity, and the report explained how the capacity limit had been generous since alterations had reduced space when the pens had been established.
Pens 1 and to a lesser extent 4 did have some space available due to the way 2-3 were over packed.
It's correct that it was the error of police to not have guided those fans to other areas after the crushing caused the gate C to be opened.
This all adds up to the place being over capacity in my mind, without gates 1-16 properly scrutinised for ticketless fans plus any number of both ticketed and ticketless fans who hadn't made it to any section yet by the time the game was stopped.
In summary the ticketless fans had to have contributed to the other mistakes, it's not slander to come to such suggestion.
One final point regarding the Taylor report is that it clearly states in it that duckenfield apologised for something or other I can't recall whether it was saying that gate c was forced or not.....but the Taylor report also suggests that the ticketless fans had been found to be plotting to have gate c opened from causing scenes.
The Taylor report doesn't say the terraces were under capacity from my interpretation, it actually goes to some length to explain how it was over capacity even without scrutinising a section.
When gate c was opened they had to use the camera to estimate how many with and without tickets entered the terraces, they hired experts to evaluate it and they came up with a figure between 1800 and 2000.
To this figure they added the collective of people who had passed through turnstiles A-G which came to something like 5400 (from memory)
The total capacity was defined as 10100 for the terraces, but that included the NW section of 2900, and the report says it conceded some fans without tickets paid or just simply got in through gates 1-16 without tickets.
The total therefore without scrutinising how over full the corner was was still something like 200 over capacity, and the report explained how the capacity limit had been generous since alterations had reduced space when the pens had been established.
Pens 1 and to a lesser extent 4 did have some space available due to the way 2-3 were over packed.
It's correct that it was the error of police to not have guided those fans to other areas after the crushing caused the gate C to be opened.
This all adds up to the place being over capacity in my mind, without gates 1-16 properly scrutinised for ticketless fans plus any number of both ticketed and ticketless fans who hadn't made it to any section yet by the time the game was stopped.
In summary the ticketless fans had to have contributed to the other mistakes, it's not slander to come to such suggestion.
One final point regarding the Taylor report is that it clearly states in it that duckenfield apologised for something or other I can't recall whether it was saying that gate c was forced or not.....but the Taylor report also suggests that the ticketless fans had been found to be plotting to have gate c opened from causing scenes.
Just to add...
A ticketless fan doesn't simply take up space over and above the capacity, they also slow the processing of gaining entrance.
The report says that the turnstile averages over all turnstiles had been working at only 75% efficiency speed, partly due to the turnstiles themselves but also because of a combination of jostling, crushing, fans attempting to gain access without paying, 3 photocopied forgeries, fans doubling up, fans ducking the turnstiles and obcourse fans attempting to pay instead of showing the ticket they should have had.
Just like a car braking on the motorway. A single entity causes a ripple backwards within a collection of others.
It's crazy to say no blame goes on fans.
A ticketless fan doesn't simply take up space over and above the capacity, they also slow the processing of gaining entrance.
The report says that the turnstile averages over all turnstiles had been working at only 75% efficiency speed, partly due to the turnstiles themselves but also because of a combination of jostling, crushing, fans attempting to gain access without paying, 3 photocopied forgeries, fans doubling up, fans ducking the turnstiles and obcourse fans attempting to pay instead of showing the ticket they should have had.
Just like a car braking on the motorway. A single entity causes a ripple backwards within a collection of others.
It's crazy to say no blame goes on fans.
No. What's crazy, is that you seem to think you know better than a 2 year inquest and an independent jury. I'm staggered at your compete ignorance.
I saw an interview with one of the families that said 'even we didn't expect that result' in reference to the verdict.
Anyway, I'm not here to 'bag' or browbeat over the issue or to insinuate that the fans were major contributors, I was simply saying how the verdict seems to me in error given the data that's available outside the court.
im just rather incredulous that everyone seemed to get blamed almost down to the pie seller but no criticism of a portion of the fans makes it look strange.
I do pity the families, there were unquestionable a majority who did nothing wrong.
im just rather incredulous that everyone seemed to get blamed almost down to the pie seller but no criticism of a portion of the fans makes it look strange.
I do pity the families, there were unquestionable a majority who did nothing wrong.
96 men, women and children die at a football game. they all went to watch an FA cup semi final and they were crushed to death in the most horrific circumstances, squeezed lifeless, until their kidneys, bladders and stomachs exploded under the pressure, arms and ribs cracked under the pressure and lungs collapsed because so much exterior pressure was applied that they could not inhale. And still some ar$eholes on here try to have a pop at LFC or make some cheap throwaway comments because they think to do so shows how much they support another team.
It could very easily have benn Man U in the LL that day, it could very easily have been Spurs supporters a few years earlier but fate decreed that it was LFC.
And football in general owes those 96 people one huge debt because ever since and for the future anyone who attends a football match in Britain will have been treated as though they are a member of the human race and not an animal, which is how the SYP and quite a few other forces viewed ALL football supporters in those days.
We were very lucky that people like Brian Reid were at that game and able to articulate the fans view in the days before social media, because without their expert statements the lies and cover-up would have won and even then it took 27 years for the truth and justice to emerge. Also people with true grit and determination like Anne Williams, Margaret Aspinal and Trevor Hicks who fought to clear their children's and all the other sons, daughters, brothers and sisters names.
So before you come on here to have a pop at LFC just take a minute and think to yourself 'what if it had been me or my team in Leppings Lane on April 15 1989' would I still come on here so full of bitterness and hatred? If I had gone to that FA Cup semi final as a supporter and my mum had to come up to Sheffield to identify my dead body through a window that Saturday night how would my friends and family feel?
This is not about showing how big you think you are because you support another team, its about how big you really are in life.
YNWA
It could very easily have benn Man U in the LL that day, it could very easily have been Spurs supporters a few years earlier but fate decreed that it was LFC.
And football in general owes those 96 people one huge debt because ever since and for the future anyone who attends a football match in Britain will have been treated as though they are a member of the human race and not an animal, which is how the SYP and quite a few other forces viewed ALL football supporters in those days.
We were very lucky that people like Brian Reid were at that game and able to articulate the fans view in the days before social media, because without their expert statements the lies and cover-up would have won and even then it took 27 years for the truth and justice to emerge. Also people with true grit and determination like Anne Williams, Margaret Aspinal and Trevor Hicks who fought to clear their children's and all the other sons, daughters, brothers and sisters names.
So before you come on here to have a pop at LFC just take a minute and think to yourself 'what if it had been me or my team in Leppings Lane on April 15 1989' would I still come on here so full of bitterness and hatred? If I had gone to that FA Cup semi final as a supporter and my mum had to come up to Sheffield to identify my dead body through a window that Saturday night how would my friends and family feel?
This is not about showing how big you think you are because you support another team, its about how big you really are in life.
YNWA
If it was Man Utd fans or Leicester fans or even Mother Theresa select eleven fans I would be still be looking at the bigger picture and asking questions....
Just like Sir John Smith (Liverpool FC Chairman) who questioned if it was the behaviour of Chelsea fans at Heysel.
It was called Justice for the 96.........Well you got it.....
I don't know why you should get so concerned about a discussion on a late night betting forum from people who apparently don't sing from the same hymn sheet.
People will always have opposing views on everything, from September the Eleventh to the Kennedy assassination which will bound to upset one section of society or another...
Its all part of the freedom of speech.
Just like Sir John Smith (Liverpool FC Chairman) who questioned if it was the behaviour of Chelsea fans at Heysel.
It was called Justice for the 96.........Well you got it.....
I don't know why you should get so concerned about a discussion on a late night betting forum from people who apparently don't sing from the same hymn sheet.
People will always have opposing views on everything, from September the Eleventh to the Kennedy assassination which will bound to upset one section of society or another...
Its all part of the freedom of speech.
Vidou. Thats a tremendous post.
dustybin
I sat on a course a few years back where the guy claimed it was 200 under whereas you claim 200 over? You could be right?
Whatever the numbers, if the police , at source, had directed the the fans correctly then this disaster would of been lessened. I have no doubt fans arriving late contributed to the crush but directed correctly the crush would have abated. It wasn't a new thing that fans come late and ticketless fans turn up ,too. It happens today and only last week at Wembley there was evidence of over-crowding but the police directed fans , asked them to wait and therefore organised a potential situation getting out of control. South Yorkshire police didn't do their jobs like the police at Wembley. They simply opened the door and hoped it went ok because there wasn't a disaster beforehand as a precedent.Like the Spurs fans they probably felt it would go off as normal, chaos drunks crushes and a nice little few quid extra in the pay packet. Far too often police have taken the clubs money , hi visibility ( all on overtime) but simply watched as fans were packed like cattle ushered in to the game. It never occured to them that it was the police responsibility to serve and protect.They looked down on football fans and openly s****ed when things got rough. It's never happened at Anfield Goodison Old Trafford where the policing is more proactive, any visiting fan stepping out of line are dealt with and put in line. That's what those fans deserved no matter how late they showed.
The fans were let down simply because it needed a disaster of this proportion to shake the apathy of policing at football grounds. The Justice Taylor report has helped enormously. Who would have thought that by simply creating a ticket with a zone where you can only get in the ground would help direct fans. If only South Yorkshire Police would have had some foresight...
dustybin
I sat on a course a few years back where the guy claimed it was 200 under whereas you claim 200 over? You could be right?
Whatever the numbers, if the police , at source, had directed the the fans correctly then this disaster would of been lessened. I have no doubt fans arriving late contributed to the crush but directed correctly the crush would have abated. It wasn't a new thing that fans come late and ticketless fans turn up ,too. It happens today and only last week at Wembley there was evidence of over-crowding but the police directed fans , asked them to wait and therefore organised a potential situation getting out of control. South Yorkshire police didn't do their jobs like the police at Wembley. They simply opened the door and hoped it went ok because there wasn't a disaster beforehand as a precedent.Like the Spurs fans they probably felt it would go off as normal, chaos drunks crushes and a nice little few quid extra in the pay packet. Far too often police have taken the clubs money , hi visibility ( all on overtime) but simply watched as fans were packed like cattle ushered in to the game. It never occured to them that it was the police responsibility to serve and protect.They looked down on football fans and openly s****ed when things got rough. It's never happened at Anfield Goodison Old Trafford where the policing is more proactive, any visiting fan stepping out of line are dealt with and put in line. That's what those fans deserved no matter how late they showed.
The fans were let down simply because it needed a disaster of this proportion to shake the apathy of policing at football grounds. The Justice Taylor report has helped enormously. Who would have thought that by simply creating a ticket with a zone where you can only get in the ground would help direct fans. If only South Yorkshire Police would have had some foresight...
dustybin 01 May 16 08:55
Anyway, I'm not here to 'bag' or browbeat over the issue or to insinuate that the fans were major contributors, I was simply saying how the verdict seems to me in error given the data that's available outside the court.
im just rather incredulous that everyone seemed to get blamed almost down to the pie seller but no criticism of a portion of the fans makes it look strange.
I do pity the families, there were unquestionable a majority who did nothing wrong.
Why don't you leave it at that then Dusty. You have been on here at all hours of the day (as early as 7.30am) since the verdict,banging the same drum. It's becoming an obsession. You've made your point.
Anyway, I'm not here to 'bag' or browbeat over the issue or to insinuate that the fans were major contributors, I was simply saying how the verdict seems to me in error given the data that's available outside the court.
im just rather incredulous that everyone seemed to get blamed almost down to the pie seller but no criticism of a portion of the fans makes it look strange.
I do pity the families, there were unquestionable a majority who did nothing wrong.
Why don't you leave it at that then Dusty. You have been on here at all hours of the day (as early as 7.30am) since the verdict,banging the same drum. It's becoming an obsession. You've made your point.
cont.....
Its all part of the freedom of speech.....
...and you have the freedom not to listen. May I suggest that there is a block button for you to use at your discretion.
Its all part of the freedom of speech.....
...and you have the freedom not to listen. May I suggest that there is a block button for you to use at your discretion.
The ones who have come out of this scotfree is the FA for allowing the game to be played at Sheffeid with no safety certifciate.
Or maybe the scum who caused fences to be errected in the first place.
In 1974, when Manchester United were relegated to the Second Division, the Red Army hooligan firm caused mayhem at grounds up and down the country, and in the same year a Bolton Wanderers fan stabbed a young Blackpool fan to death behind the Kop at Bloomfield Road during a Second Division match. These two events led to introduction of crowd segregation and the erection of fences at football grounds in England
In 1974, when Manchester United were relegated to the Second Division, the Red Army hooligan firm caused mayhem at grounds up and down the country, and in the same year a Bolton Wanderers fan stabbed a young Blackpool fan to death behind the Kop at Bloomfield Road during a Second Division match. These two events led to introduction of crowd segregation and the erection of fences at football grounds in England
http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/blog/liverpool-fans-bunking-into-wembley...
Man U fans bunking into Wembley....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWM7FSCGk_U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_wTHd1ANX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_wTHd1ANX4
yeah united fans and liverpool fans are the worst for sneaking in
Crystalhunt
You are right, even though I disagree with quite a bit of the logic and holistic make up of the decisions I am also aware that I have said a great deal on this subject and am conscious of it which is why I've attempted to temper my rhetoric to not seem heartless.
I have made my point now, though in fairness I tend to give my tupeneth on whatever happens to be newsworthy at the time, this one having being recurring. Over the days since the verdict I've taken the time to read through the Taylor report and watched two new to me documentaries totalling around 3 hours to see where I might have made a mistake.
I continued to post as a result of that, but I think I'm done on the subject (until which time it comes back again perhaps)
Other than responding to anyone who refers to me the last I'll say for now is that it's not racism against Liverpool, they just happened to be in the position when the music stopped. Actions cause reactions, if the police acted due to the conduct of others or whether outsiders took a dim view of fans from all clubs as a whole or not, there is still a case to answer for that conduct.
(Though I do agree with the sentiment that the all seater stadium is indeed the epitaph to those who died)
You are right, even though I disagree with quite a bit of the logic and holistic make up of the decisions I am also aware that I have said a great deal on this subject and am conscious of it which is why I've attempted to temper my rhetoric to not seem heartless.
I have made my point now, though in fairness I tend to give my tupeneth on whatever happens to be newsworthy at the time, this one having being recurring. Over the days since the verdict I've taken the time to read through the Taylor report and watched two new to me documentaries totalling around 3 hours to see where I might have made a mistake.
I continued to post as a result of that, but I think I'm done on the subject (until which time it comes back again perhaps)
Other than responding to anyone who refers to me the last I'll say for now is that it's not racism against Liverpool, they just happened to be in the position when the music stopped. Actions cause reactions, if the police acted due to the conduct of others or whether outsiders took a dim view of fans from all clubs as a whole or not, there is still a case to answer for that conduct.
(Though I do agree with the sentiment that the all seater stadium is indeed the epitaph to those who died)
Dusty - good post. You can now concentrate on winning some money on here 
im surprised you have had time to read the taylor report given the volume of your posts
you only serve to highlight the 27 years of carp that these good people have had to endure
you only serve to highlight the 27 years of carp that these good people have had to endure
That logical approach I take has paid the dividends to give me that time Donny.
yeah united fans and liverpool fans are the worst for sneaking in
Liam,I know of several schoolmates of mine who sneaked into the 1973 final at wembley (under the turnstyles), it wasnt just Liverppol or Man Utd, it was trick often played at crowded matches when jostling and delays at the turnstyles paid off for some,it was tolerated util the disaster happened when the full realisation hit home. Hindsight is wonderful.
Liam,I know of several schoolmates of mine who sneaked into the 1973 final at wembley (under the turnstyles), it wasnt just Liverppol or Man Utd, it was trick often played at crowded matches when jostling and delays at the turnstyles paid off for some,it was tolerated util the disaster happened when the full realisation hit home. Hindsight is wonderful.
I know a Man U fan who got into the new Wembley twice by getting into the roofs pace in toilets outside and going through the ducting and eventually dropped down onto a bar. Knocked a load of beer over though, so bang out of order
Sneaking in wasn't the cause of the deaths at Hillsborough.
IMHO the fan violence of the 70s was a major cause. The fences would never have been put up if yobs had not hijacked the game for their own stupid agenda.
What is sad is that even now these boneheads eulogise about their exploits. Sad C u n t s.
IMHO the fan violence of the 70s was a major cause. The fences would never have been put up if yobs had not hijacked the game for their own stupid agenda.
What is sad is that even now these boneheads eulogise about their exploits. Sad C u n t s.
The reason we don't see fan violence so much in the grounds these days is because of cameras in the main and the use of seats, but if you think violence is that different today you are very much mistaken. Most of it is outside of the ground but it still exists and has existed ever since the 70's. West Ham hit the headlines heavily in 2009 against Millwall and several times this very year as well. I hate to admit it but so have Spurs a few times. "Yobs" existed then as they do today, it just isn't as exposed or in front of the TV cameras. As it turned out fences wasn't the answer, seats were.
What i dont like is the bullying of anyone who has the audacity to have a different opinion to the liverpool fans, like the one with the vicar here
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vicar-forced-apologise-after-claiming-7864478
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vicar-forced-apologise-after-claiming-7864478
I know of one survivor, “Ian”, who lost a friend in pen 3. In 2007, Ian became upset about the controversy generated by the appearance of Kelvin MacKenzie on Newsnight, and a few weeks later he hanged himself. There was Stephen Whittle, who gave his match ticket to a friend, who died. In February 2011, Stephen stepped in front of an express train. Two of my mates who survived pen 3 have tried to kill themselves; both, mercifully, survived.
Taken from http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany?CMP=share_btn_tw
Try and read it if you get a spare 5 minutes.
You'll be sickened.
Taken from http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany?CMP=share_btn_tw
Try and read it if you get a spare 5 minutes.
You'll be sickened.
If people are still killing themselves over this, even after so many years then its best to keep your views to yourself. Because at the end of the day this bullsh1t ain't worth it.
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Just let them get on with it.
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Just let them get on with it.
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