MESSI V MARADONNA

DIEGO SCORED 170 GOALS IN EUROPE...............WON 1 EUFA CUP AND TWO SERIA A'S..............


so by that brilliant logic John O Shea is right up there as one of the best ever and better than Maradona

Jul 14, 2014 -- 7:28PM, p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y wrote:

DIEGO SCORED 170 GOALS IN EUROPE...............WON 1 EUFA CUP AND TWO SERIA A'S..............so by that brilliant logic John O Shea is right up there as one of the best ever and better than Maradona

But why was Maradona not able to win more if he can do things single handed?

yawn, JamDav putting the willy off himself looking at his Lional Messi posters, has this ever happened before

Jul 14, 2014 -- 7:32PM, p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y wrote:

yawn, JamDav putting the willy off himself looking at his Lional Messi posters, has this ever happened before

Quality come back as expected.

i couldn't be bothered making a balanced reply to one of the most biased obsessed posters on this forum

Jul 14, 2014 -- 7:36PM, p_r_e_m_i_e_r__f_a_n_t_a_s_y wrote:

i couldn't be bothered making a balanced reply to one of the most biased obsessed posters on this forum

Good for you. Now move on.

Surely the highlight reels speak for Maradona? Some of the things he did defy belief. Messi is the ultimate team player, but let's face it, he's always been surrounded by the best team mates he could have, and he's part of a system that suits him ideally. Lately, he's been hovering about the penalty area and his aim is to get a little space, cut in, and have a shot with his left foot. So he's been quite limited lately - by his standards anyway.

Maradona was like a feckin' storm on the pitch - force of nature. If both players are at 100% fitness, I'd take Maradona - the best ever...better than Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano...and Messi.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 7:38PM, Velasquez wrote:

Surely the highlight reels speak for Maradona? Some of the things he did defy belief. Messi is the ultimate team player, but let's face it, he's always been surrounded by the best team mates he could have, and he's part of a system that suits him ideally. Lately, he's been hovering about the penalty area and his aim is to get a little space, cut in, and have a shot with his left foot. So he's been quite limited lately - by his standards anyway.Maradona was like a feckin' storm on the pitch - force of nature. If both players are at 100% fitness, I'd take Maradona - the best ever...better than Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano...and Messi.

Messi at 27 has more goals and more competitive goals for Argentina than Maradona did in his whole career.

The one thing Maradona has had is better World Cup. Ranking their world cups would be -

1. Maradona 1986
2. Messi 2014
3. Messi 2010
4. Maradona 1982

Maradona was not even considered the best player in the world until 1986 and was rarely considered it after that

Everything points to 1986 being a one off time in Maradonas career when everything came together but people try and make out he played like that his whole career.

Messi is not fit to wash Maradonas jockstrap

Maradona was gash most of the time, HTH

Maradona did it on the World Cup stage sadly Messie hasnt.

This is what Gary Lineker had to say about Maradona recently:

"When I was at Barcelona, I played with Maradona for a 'Rest of the World' team at Wembley in 1988 as part of the Football League's centenary celebrations and every other player was in awe of him. Even great players like Zico and Michel Platini - their jaws dropped when he walked into our dressing room. We went out for the warm-up and he got a ball and juggled it all the way to the halfway line, then booted it about 50 yards in the air and when it came straight down booted it again. He did it about 12 times and never had to do anything but walk. I remember telling the other Barca players when I went back to Spain and we all tried it. The best anybody did was three, with a massive sprint at the end."

Jul 14, 2014 -- 8:52PM, iprefertolay wrote:

Maradona did it on the World Cup stage sadly Messie hasnt.

Done what?

Messi was Argentinas best player and his performance in this world cup was better than any of Maradona tournament performances other then 1986.

Messi hasnt matched Maradona at World Cup level and Maradona didnt even come close to Messi at club level.

Messi was Argentinas best player

Eh no he wasn't,Garay and Mascherano were much better.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 8:58PM, CheltenhamRoar wrote:

Messi was Argentinas best playerEh no he wasn't,Garay and Mascherano were much better.

No they werent. Not even close.

Messi MOTM in four of the seven games. Created more chances that anyone else at the tournament, dribbled more than anyone else and scored four goals.

Garay and Masch looked good when Sabella started playing a more defensive formation as they were looking terrible at back.

The result was a stronger defence but far less support up to Messi.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 8:55PM, Wesdag wrote:

This is what Gary Lineker had to say about Maradona recently:"When I was at Barcelona, I played with Maradona for a 'Rest of the World' team at Wembley in 1988 as part of the Football League's centenary celebrations and every other player was in awe of him. Even great players like Zico and Michel Platini - their jaws dropped when he walked into our dressing room. We went out for the warm-up and he got a ball and juggled it all the way to the halfway line, then booted it about 50 yards in the air and when it came straight down booted it again. He did it about 12 times and never had to do anything but walk. I remember telling the other Barca players when I went back to Spain and we all tried it. The best anybody did was three, with a massive sprint at the end."

I am sure I have heard him tell that same story about Gazza.

Without the Zico, Platini etc.

i have criticized Messi in this world cup but we've all seen what he produced over the last decade or so. If Maradona was better than that, then fair enough. I just doubt it though.

i don't think anyone has ever been as good as messi has been up to age 27.

messi is great ... maradona is the greatest. id take that one league title at napoli in that era , over any amount of la liga titles in this era.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 9:11PM, deliris wrote:

messi is great ... maradona is the greatest. id take that one league title at napoli in that era , over any amount of la liga titles in this era.

By that standard John Robertson at Nottingham Forrest is better than Maradona.

Give me two European Cups at Nottingham Forrest over one league title at Napoli.

who do you think the argentinian people believe is the best between them ?

the fat dwarf cheat as they have no concept of fair play, seems like some of you are probably Argies in disguise

Jul 14, 2014 -- 9:20PM, deliris wrote:

who do you think the argentinian people believe is the best between them ?

Maradona.

World Cups etc matter more to them than club football so it makes sense that he is a god to them. He also has a personality that appeals to them more and a history in Argie football.

Of course they prefer Maradona.

Maradona practised his ball juggling technique with a golf ball.






























































































































































































































Maradona single handedly won Argentina the World Cup in a very average side.
He also practised his ball juggling technique with a golf ball!!
He is in the best three players ever!

i see the mention of maradona being a cheat lol ... yes he would do anything to win .. jsut like gary linekar against cameroon in 1990

if the 1986 side was average, what about this one?? 2 goals scored in the Knockout stages - 450 odd minutes. only 1 came in normal time!

I'm a big Messi fan but comparisons are hard.  Maradona would have had hatfuls in this era where defending is basically outlawed.

I also think Messi's reputation might be enhanced by succeeding at another club/league as well as all conquering Barca.

Messi hasnt got a world cup winners medal

Jul 14, 2014 -- 9:48PM, iprefertolay wrote:

Messi hasnt got a world cup winners medal

Maradona hasnt got what Messi has at club level either.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 9:47PM, berto77 wrote:

I'm a big Messi fan but comparisons are hard.  Maradona would have had hatfuls in this era where defending is basically outlawed.I also think Messi's reputation might be enhanced by succeeding at another club/league as well as all conquering Barca.

I watched all the Argentina World Cup games from 1986 and the games are far more open and players get much more space than now.

The games are more open less tactical. Standard of defending isnt any better back then.

More pulling, intimidation and thuggery in the 80s.  Plus fewer cards to inhibit defenders.

I'm not saying it makes him better than Messi as I agree the club records are incredible.  I just think comparisons are so difficult.

Jul 14, 2014 -- 9:56PM, berto77 wrote:

More pulling, intimidation and thuggery in the 80s.  Plus fewer cards to inhibit defenders.I'm not saying it makes him better than Messi as I agree the club records are incredible.  I just think comparisons are so difficult.

More thuggery then, better more organised defences now. It evens up.

Plenty of players were hammering in goals in the 60s/70s/80s.

messi couldnt match george best ability wise imo

Jul 14, 2014 -- 10:22PM, paddy1 wrote:

messi couldnt match george best ability wise imo

Your wrong but go for it.

Manuel Neuer completed more passes than Messi in this WC,
And MOTM awards mean fcúk all if last nights award was anything to go by

It's simply not possible to judge Maradona (or Pele.)

I'd hazard a guess that over 95% of UK people haven't seen Maradona play for less than 10 hours
and that includes people on this forum.

(* More than 10 hours)

That fact probably helps Maradona as he played at a level he never repeated in his career when everyone was watching.

He finished for Napoli in 1991 and Ch4 Football Italia didn't start till 1992,
so I'd estimate that 99.9% of the UK population has never seen him play
more than a match or two of club football

Compare that to Messi

if maradona was playing last night instead of messi, argentina would be world champions,he won the world cup single handedly with a poor argentina side.

Total myth.

Go read up on that 1986 Argentina squad and how they played.

They scored some fantastic team goals and players stepped up even when Maradona not involved.

If Maradona had the ability to turn average team into winners he would have won a lot more in his career.

It's so difficult to compare between generations due to so many technical improvements over the years. However, I saw a lot of Maradona at the time and have seen a fair amount of Messi. I don't think there is a massive amount between them in terms of skill levels. Where Maradona edges it for me is because of his strength and balance. He had an almost unbelievable ability to ride the kind of tackles and lunges which now see players automatically in the book but which were commonplace in his day and he was still going forward having barely broken stride. He'd be a joy to watch with the protection creative players are afforded these days.

And whilst there wasn't in my view an outstanding candidate this time round I don't think it at all outrageous that Messi got the player of the tournament award. People just seem to hold him and one or two others to much higher standards than everybody else.

How did you manager to see a lot of Maradona at time?

By his own admission he was regarded as 6/7th best player in world going into the 1986 World Cup which in itself shows he did not match his WC performances week in week out.

He must have been living in Italy.

There was barely any club football shown in the UK.
Even World Cup matches in the 80s weren't all shown, be it lack of transmission, clashes with other games
or lack of channels.

I stand by, that well over 95% of the population has ever seen Maradona play for only 0-9 hours.

Those are some fair points and no I didn't live in Italy so it was an over statement to say I saw a lot of him at the time and what we did see was often something which he did spectacularly at club level shwown on what little football we did get to see which may have skewed the overall perception. Having said that I'd say that the vast majority of the football watching population of that time saw him for more than 0-9 hours. Don't forget he played in four world cups helping to take Argentina to two finals and he played nearly every minute of his first world cup in 82. Even allowing for the fact that we didn't get to see all his games that is a lot of hours of football.

That said I find JamDav's assertion about him being ranked the 6/7th best player going into the 86 finals as preposterous. By that time both Barcelona and Napoli had seen fit to pay world record transfer fees for him. Clubs don't do that for nearly the best they do it for who they perceive to be the best.

These Messi fanboys clearly never saw Maradona play. Those of us old enough to have seen both are therefore likely to be in a better position to judge! You are also comparing apples to oranges looking at club stats.

Maradona was on a different planet to any other footballer I have ever seen. You have to remember all the worlds best played in Serie A. Nowadays the top talent is more widely dispersed and Messi has been at the greatest club side ever against rank bad sides. Scoring is easy in a great team v poor opponents. Maradona played for a team that was a small club when he went and he took them to the Serie A title.

Maradona played in an era where he was hacked to pieces and showed amazing resilience and strength. I doubt Messi would be able to withstand the battering Diego had to endure. In an era when defence was king Maradonas goals tally was extremely impressive in an era of dour 0-0s.

And the biggest stage of all Maradona ran the 86 WC. In 1990 he took an absolutely awful Argie side to the final. Maradona delivered in spadefuls. Not only was Diego individually brilliant but he was a leader of men and inspirational. HE never stopped and was a far better team player without the ball too.

Messi is a flat track bully to some extent, albeit a wonderfully talented player. Maradona was a freakish tour de force who never failed to deliver and did not need wonderful players around him to show his talent or inspire others to deliver to the best of their ability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=iqzB-JefIUc&NR=1

p.s absolute tosh to the dim wit who said Maradona wasn't considered the worlds best player prior to the 86 WC. He absolutely was. To make stuff up to fatten your Messi argument is lamentable frankly.

charwell, i dont remember Maradona being that good at all in 1990. the Argies had a very experienced side then with grit but not a whole lot of flair that managed to get to the Final. but they lost to Cameroon ffs

I take your point about Diego being a better leader than Messi - agree on that. But as for the playing side i dont think he was at his best at all in 1990. obviously peerless in '86.

people who played with and against maradona agree that messi is better, the problem is the world cup probably came at the wrong time for messi, 2 years ago when he was at his best he'd have done things like maradona did in 86, when you look back on players if you are not careful you only remember the good bits, if this forum had been around in 1982 it would have been in meltdown at how poor maradona was and nowhere near pele, 2 years ago messi was remarkable in the level he played to week in week out and I know I'll never see that again

maradona was fantastic but taking performance enhancing drugs always puts a question mark over  someone too

40 million Argentinians think you're talking p1sh

Diego is their No.1 by a d....i....s....t...a...n...c...e

people saying Maradona was a level above Messi emphasise the performances for Argentina.

what about club level?? i doubt Maradona was as good week in week out as Messi has been for the last 8 years or so.

so the Argies know more about football than anyone else eh? cheers for that.

The Argentinians certainly know more about it than you, and are not brainwashed by the Under 30 brigade who can't contemplate football even existed before Sky Sports came on the scene

im not under 30. if no-one over 30 thought messi was the best ever we wouldnt be debating this. the likes of Lineker who played with and against Maradona has said he's never seen anyone like messi

Jul 15, 2014 -- 11:48AM, Platini wrote:

40 million Argentinians think you're talking p1shDiego is their No.1 by a d....i....s....t...a...n...c...e

if i want an opinion on a football team/player only a complete fool would ask/listen to a supporter

Freddie, you've said you're over 30. Okay, can you tell me where you're from?

This has to be the most one-sided Opening Post I have ever seen in my life. I am sure bdj must be trolling.


It's too biased to be taken seriously.

what about club level?? i doubt Maradona was as good week in week out as Messi has been for the last 8 years or so.

How many top teams ply their trade in Spain? Until the emergence of Athletico this season there has been two for some years. Some of the teams are very average. As someone else said Maradona played in Serie A at a time when it was very strong as evidenced by various Italian teams performances in european football. Prior to him arriving and since then no mainland southern Italian club side won Serie A. Napoli did it twice whilst Maradona was there.

Messi is 27 and pampered compared to Maradona who was kicked from piller to post by some of history's worst hatchet men throughout his career. No wonder by 30 he couldn't influence games in the way he did when he was in his mid 20's like Messi is. He still did what Messi has just done in 1990. The difference is in what he did in 86 when he scored two of the greatest goals seen in any world cup.

For me it really does depend on what you consider greatness. Whenever there are debates on players so many fans tend to prefer talent over consistent performance. Many Utd fans consider Eric Cantona Utd's greatest player of modern times when he clearly is not imo. The same happens with Liverpool fans and Robbie Fowler. Obviously Cantona and Fowler were brilliant players but doing it again and again is what makes someone the best imo. Therefore players like Keane, Giggs and Scholes for Utd and Gerrard for Liverpool were much more valuable. I'd apply this to the Maradona and Messi argument. Argentina fans love the rogue which Maradona undoubtedly was. Of course he did also have a major bearing on winning a world cup for them so it's understandable they love him so much. However, Messi has done it week in, week out for years, has taken goalscoring records to new levels and whilst he shouldn't have been player of the tournament was still comfortably Argentina's best player early in the tournament. I'd have Messi above Maradona because for me he has been consistently brilliant nearly every week for a number of years. Maradona for all his brilliance in the 86 world cup and helping Napoli to win titles didn't do it as consistently.

i agree with platini on this and i often disagree with him.

someone is
serving his usual b***s**t
again
figuring it was
time to ruin
the football forum too

f*** of grasser

I am Maradona to Melly's Peter Reid. Hey Melly I'll send you a postcard to tell you which way I went.

asparagus and others

The coffin lid on this fallacy about Messi's consistency and Maradona's inconsistency needs to be hammered firmly shut I'm afraid. I'm not talking opinions here. I am as someone famously said talking FACTS:

Messi is playing in a team of stars against another team of stars however many times a year and then he generally plays the equivalent of a load of friendlies against lolly pop ladies. Think of the absolute shiittest player in the Premiership and imagine how good he would look in your local sunday league team.

Now before the obvious retorts of course I am exaggerating but only for effect because you simply cannot wax lyrical about his consistency when the level of competition is usually so average.

And on to Maradona because you also simply cannot skate over what he did at Napoli. As I stated before prior to his arrival in Italy and also after no club from the south of Italy's mainland had or has ever won Serie A. Ever. At all. Napoli not only did it twice whilst he was there but also finished runners up on another couple of occasions. And this was the strongest in depth league in the world with different teams popping up throughout the 80's winning top european competitions or reaching their finals.

So where does this fallacy about Maradona's inconsistency spring from? Ah yes. I get it. Sometimes he was brilliant. Other times he was outstanding and sometimes he played football at a level not seen before or since and on the very highest stage of all where everything is on the line and you go home if you don't produce.

I'll take that kind of inconsistency over running around road sweepers any day.

All of this really achieves nothing because it is subjective - for the most part people have a preference for who is the best based on their formative years - I will always believe Pele is the best - I saw him and the Brazil team of 1970 win the World Cup when I was 13 - as far as I'm concerned I have never nor will I see football played better and despite every player being outstanding Pele was the king. The Brazil team of 1982 could have been nearly as good in 82 but they lost so are now largely forgotten. As time moves on another generation is introduced and younger folk of today will talk about the players they see on TV playing now. In 20 years there will be other player who will stand out and to that generation and they will be the best. When there are polls of great sports people it is younger people who invariably vote and recent sportsmen are nominated in preference to people from the past who they do not know - its simple psychology of believing what you see

Pele is also comfortably ahead of Messi. Messi will have to fight it out with a whole host of great players for the third spot, but there is a huge gap between them and the supernatural Maradonna and mercurial Pele.

geordie makes a good point. We all seize on to a specific players outstanding world cup performance and possibly romanticise it. Pele in 1970. Cruyff in 1974. There were at least two Brazilains in that team of 82 which time has forgotten but who were quite sublime. And on history takes us through the years. The point is that whilst Messi was good in this world cup and one of if not arguably the best he simply didn't make it his own. He didn't stamp his authority on the tournament and we know this because people have been trotting out excuses for him in recent days. It was his time and he played well but not well enough to usurp some of those earlier greats and I really don't see how anybody can argue that there was ever a more influential player in a world cup than Maradona in 86. Certainly not Messi in 2014.

Eeternaloptimist     15 Jul 14 21:54 
... I really don't see how anybody can argue that there was ever a more influential player in a world cup than Maradona in 86. Certainly not Messi in 2014.

I'll argue the point. Stat based only.

1966, final, Sir Geoffrey Hurst, a mere hattrick (perhaps).

That to me is influential... and some.

You can not compare a player from 86 to a player of today, as everyone surely would expect, with better training techniques, better equipment, better analysis, basically everything should be improving year on year as they learn more from previous experiences, So for Messi not to be better than Maradonna now is almost impossible to believe. As I'd say the top 20 or more players in the world should all be better than Maradonna now. Just as the top 20 sprinters are all better than Carl Lewis now.

No one gives any credit  to the brilliant goalies and defensive structures of the top teams these days, would Maradonna really have strolled through that German defense as many are suggesting ?

I also read many saying Messi should not have won that award , but who should have then ? , some say Rodriguez , well that is just laughable, it had to be a Argentinian or German player, Germany play a very team orientated game, so hard to name one player from their team, Muller is a poacher , he didn't do anything deserving of that award, the Goalie hardly touched the ball all tournament, so how can it be him. Maybe a team mate of Messi's, but hey it was the defense that let the losing goal in, so how can they win it :-)

We can only assess a player by the ability he showed and the impact he made at the time he was playing, anything else is pure conjecture. For example, how do you know that if Pele was in his prime today, with all the so called superior modern training methods, he wouldn't make Messi and Ronaldo look pedestrian? The answer is you don't. It's impossible to know. All we know for sure is that Maradona showed more ability and made more of an impact in his era than Messi does in this era. That is the only fact we have at our disposal. So therefore it is a fact that Maradona is the better player.

apart from maradona taking performance enhancing drugs which were rife in athletics in the 80's, maradona and messi are similar players, here are their records


maradona lifetime club 312 goals in 588 game
messi lifetime (so far at 27) 365 goals in 457 games

heres the direct comparison of their barca records for the 2 years when maradona was there and the corresponding 2 years when messi was the same age

maradona 38 goals in 58 games
messi  100 goals in 108 games

and what of their international records

maradonas lifetime figures 34 goals in 91 games
messi  42 goals in 93 games

so the key difference being messi plays a lot more games per year (as football has become far more commercial) and he scores more goals per game

similar players very different records

And at his peak he played in an inferior league.

It's impossible to prove that Messi is better than Maradona and furthermore it's ridiculous for anyone to try.

high_lander
16 Jul 14 10:01

All we know for sure is that Maradona showed more ability and made more of an impact in his era than Messi does in this era. That is the only fact we have at our disposal. So therefore it is a fact that Maradona is the better player.


You seem to be confusing fact and your own opinion.

"You seem to be confusing fact and your own opinion."

That's just your opinion.

highlander has already proved that maradona was better

end of thread

^^
great contribution

Maradona would score 50 goals and create 50 goals playing in that Barca side against those La Liga defenders.

Or flip it.

Messi would be out injured 3/4 season in Maradonas Italy era and score 10 goals per season.

Maradona is the winner, hands down.

i agree charwell.

I agree to Charwell.

I'm a Pele man, but after seeing videos of Maradona, I'm inclined to change my mind.

What everyone and I mean everyone is missing is Cristiano Ronaldo has been matching if not bettering Messi for the last couple of seasons and he only had one outstanding season in the Premier League. Before that he was scoring about 10 goals a season and being ridiculed for being a one trick pony for his stepovers.

If Messi really was a great, then he'd be scoring 100 goals a season against these pub teams, if Cristiano is getting 40-50 every year!

Even Forlan top scored in that league one year and Falcao & Costa who are good players, not great have knocked in over 30...

Comparing statistics from different decades and different leagues is meaningless.

I'm sure Maradona would have scored just as many goals playing in this Barcelona team at his peak for the last few years instead of Messi.

after seeing his wc performances I doubt messi is better than kempes,the greatest players adapt to their situation,something he couldn't do