could this be the end of the tippy tappy experiment?

as gary megson once told me in his jacuzzi,"bito,art for arts sake,money for gods sake"

In Jose's press conference tonight he said that if you know an opponent likes to run into spaces behind you're stupid if you allow them those spaces.

Then along comes Pep to prove the point. They approached the game as if they were 3 down from the first leg.

..there is a surprise...

..mexicano using this game to justify Mourhino's tactics all season long.

not at all egner, i've been saying this for years. guardiola plays one way, it worked when a drug fueled barca had some top players who could press high up the pitch and wear the opposistion down, through sheer pressure.

tonight has shown that quick incisive football is the way forward.

helped by a couple of det piece goals of course?

anyway i dont have to justify mourinhos tactics, it seems to me that rodgers need to justify his lack of response,

commentator just said that this philosophy is only for spanish teams

set piece

he should have said drug fuelled spanish teams

Yeah, its been a disaster...fastest ever champions of Bundesliga, record breaking unbeaten run...

But tonight you choose to question it for the first time?

Could we not also say that Real madrid have been transformed for the better since the change of management?  because it sure looks like it to me.

Bayern must be the most over rated team of all time..

Arjen Robbin...would be lucky to get in the present Arsenal side...

i can never understand teams who just mess about and dont try attacking at pace like madrid ,when they gat the ball u need to attack at pace before the defence gets set ,so many teams just **** about and let 10 men get behind the ball
thats why liverpool need reina back as hes the best keeper for starting attacks at pace and is better than min anyway and liverpools players are perfect for fast attack

or maybe it just proves that Ancelotti is a much better coach than Mourinho


Pep owned Mourinho, and now Ancelotti is owning Pep, therefore......   

tonight i choose to question it for the first time?

been questioning it for years, and i know that barca carried all before them plying this way, but who's to say that with the players tey had they wouldn't have done better if they'd been more interested in scoring the odd goal than having impressive possesion stats?

funkymonkey they're expected to win that league.

These are the type of games where he's judged and in this tie Guardiola is being ruthlessly exposed.

Rodgers don't need to justify anything for me.
He has his philosophy on how he wants his team to play,and I for one have thoroughly enjoyed watching them,and they could still win the league playing that way.

Bayern have played some good stuff past few seasons as have Barca for a few years now,both with plenty of success.

Win some you lose some.........that's football.

bayern were awesome when they attacked at pace with robben ribbery etc but a million side ways passes 1st just lets everyone get back ,bayern will turn in to arsenal and never win outside of germany

Rodgers don't need to justify anything for me


you're obviously used to sub standard coaching then

trophys outside of germany

Mex, Marcce...you both seem like decent chaps, and I like a good debate, even if we think differently.

But both of you avoided the part about Madrid improving under new management and I am curious why?

..you have got to be kidding mexicano....

..look at the way he has improved and instilled confidence in Sturridge..Sterling and above all Henderson who looked like a carthorse 12 months ago.....

that is down to Rodgers...who....whether you like it or not ...has the potential to be one of the greats in management...whether he wins anything this year or not!!!!

anyway i dont have to justify mourinhos tactics, it seems to me that rodgers need to justify his lack of response,

Mex. what on earth are you on about?

so am I funkymonkey.

liverpool fuked it by not getting sterling to the by line at all all game and doing pointless crosses  to no one  but rogers style is fine mourinho just out did him which id been saying would happen for weeks to my mates but when jt and czech were out i dint end up hammering them.if we get lellana well be awsome again next year

..and its not as if mourhinho didn't have...in the main...the same resources as Ancellotti.

I didn't realise there were two threads, and asked the same question on the other thread. Real have improved immeasurably under Ancellotti.

its not like madrid arnt beat able bayern are just chit at the moment and madrids counter attack style is perfect against them

barca are in chit form but beat real at there ground and the spanish cup final was evens until bale scored counter attack goal
so the madrid wankfest is a bit over the top there going to lose the league to at madrid who chelsea will put out tommorow

if chelsea had a stricker id fancy them to beat madrid with hazard oscar and william also playing

Tippy Tappy CR@PPY

Not sure. Atletico are away to Barca last game. Think Real could do the double yet.

bayern struggled agaist man u for 130 mins ish so lets have some perspective hear

maybe not struggled but couldnt destroy them like any other top team would

funky monkey have Real improved though let's not forget the addition of an 86 million player could have helped if they have?

Not sure Jose would have lost the league to Atletico with that side to be fair.

Also don't forget Chelsea fans have had the pleasure of having both of them manage our club.

Carlo's a decent manager and a lovely guy but as a coach he wasn't in the same league. As proven when Jose's Inter knocked us out of the CL in fact.

But different Managers can get it going at different clubs with different methods Marcce. If Carlo does the double, or even wins the CL, surely he has improved on what Mourinho did at Real?

real are only good coz of bale and ronnie without them 2 theyd be no where near the top teams

^ how then do you explain that Mourinho could never get the better of Pep, while Ancelotti has him on toast

i really like william and oscar and think theyd walk into madrids team and chelseas defence is defo better so rally how many madrid players would get in chelseas team
alonso bale and ronnie for me

to Marcce

coz barca had the best players in the world at that time spain won all the tornys with the same players and no messi ,most top managers would of won with that barca team

Substandard coaching-Rodgers?? Think that comments finished me,leave ya to it.

The same Pep who get the hell out of Barca when Real took the league off them you mean Platini?

wow what a price 1.08 was at half time for the money buyers

Apr 29, 2014 -- 8:47PM, a bitofinterest wrote:

as gary megson once told me in his jacuzzi,"bito,art for arts sake,money for gods sake"

there's no doubt that real have improved.

but the argument has always been [as far as i'm concerned] that the barca team, and the spanish national team always seemed to be more interested in possesion, for possesions sake,and if it happened to lead to a goal fair enough, but not go actively seeking to score.

they would press very effectively high up the pitch which led to questions about whether they had ant chemical help, especially as spain appeared to be the centre of the sports doping world.

i realise that they were very succesfull playing that way, bit there was an argument to be had that if they'd been more direct, with the players they had they might have scored more goals, and saved us having to watch interminable passes back and forwards across the midfield.

now those of you who watched that tonight please give an opinion.

which team would have been better equipped to deal with madrid tonight.


gaurdiolas bayern or heynkes bayern of two three years ago?

there's no doubt that real have improved.

but the argument has always been [as far as i'm concerned] that the barca team, and the spanish national team always seemed to be more interested in possesion, for possesions sake,and if it happened to lead to a goal fair enough, but not go actively seeking to score.

they would press very effectively high up the pitch which led to questions about whether they had ant chemical help, especially as spain appeared to be the centre of the sports doping world.

i realise that they were very succesfull playing that way, bit there was an argument to be had that if they'd been more direct, with the players they had they might have scored more goals, and saved us having to watch interminable passes back and forwards across the midfield.

now those of you who watched that tonight please give an opinion.

which team would have been better equipped to deal with madrid tonight.


gaurdiolas bayern or heynkes bayern of two three years ago?

Can't Catch Me 29 Apr 14 21:17 Joined: 02 Apr 03 | Topic/replies: 17,059 | Blogger: Can't Catch Me's blog
anyway i dont have to justify mourinhos tactics, it seems to me that rodgers need to justify his lack of response,

Mex. what on earth are you on about?

it was said with a very large bit of my tongue in my cheek

..if tonight has shown anything it is that not only can't Mourinho set up an attacking philosophy and play beautiful and stunning footballwith his team...

..he is also second rate at setting up a defensive team and hitting on the break....no way he could have done what Ancellotti and Real did tonight....

..but the Mourinho personality cult will continue to roll on I guess.

egner

what the ferk has mourinho got to do with it, you really need to let it go, i know it must hurt, but we#re trying to move on to other things.

i take it your joking his style is setting up a defensive team and hitting on the break
he won the champs league with porto and inter for **** sake

..wherever your concerned mexicano he has everythimg to do with it...which is why you started this thread....though you obviously wont admit it.

Mourinho distils football down to the lowest common denonominator ...win at all costs....and trys to cover it up with his ridiculous sixth form philosophy and other nonsense to distract people from his turgid tactics and lack of inventive management.

Can't Catch Me 29 Apr 14 21:26 
Not sure. Atletico are away to Barca last game. Think Real could do the double yet.




If Atletico win their next 2 games (Levante away, Malaga home) they are champions.

egner

don't judge everybody by your smallminded self, i've been raising threads on here for years on this very subject, i thought i't was relevant again tonight, you have obviously got ferk hall to say apart from some unhinged hatred of the best coach in the premiership so you just spout the same rubbish you've been peddling since sunday.

villa have been playing this way for years, however our way is to sit in our own area and just hoof and hope

spot on egner

funkymonkey  • April 29, 2014 2:52 PM BST 


You will never see Guardiola using bus-parking tactics, in every interview where he is asked about strategy, he openly admits that his intention is always to control the ball and always to attack. No exceptions.

He has his flaws, but then who doesn't? But in my view, he has the right mentality.

You can argue of course he has the players to do it, given the quality he has at his disposal, but Barneys point is correct in my eyes, in so much as Chelsea should be aspiring to be a top club without a fear-based mentality.

Defending in such depth is a fear-based way of thinking, it isn't creative or innovative in its essence, and that is a key point when talking about how a top club should present themselves.


...everything that's wrong with Mourinho encapsulated by someone other than me mexicano.

peace out

so we.ve got more than one idiot on the forum?

Yep, have to agree with egner on this one, the purpose of the thread was a follow on to the bus-parking Chelsea thread surely...

Why then, is this not an Ancellotti masterclass?  If Mourinho had come here and won 4-0 you would be hailing him as a God...but instead its a Pep mishap tonight?

I just don't buy these double standards, it doesn't add up.

egner

don't judge everybody by your smallminded self, i've been raising threads on here for years on this very subject


..and I have been raising threads on here for years about the beauty of idealism in football....

..something which mourhinho's philosophy is the total antithesis to.

as i said small minded people judging everyone by their own standards.

you lot incapableof debate?

...I am perfectly capable of debate mexicano...and have no fear of being on the wrong side wrong of it...

..this thread imo is a justification of Mourhino's less possession ...sit back...try and sneak one on the break philosophy.....if you want to win matches and think you havnt the resources or ability do it any other way then fine.....Mourhinho obviously thinks he hasn't.

..but don't pretend it is groundbreaking or bordering on genius or a tactical masterclass...or god forbid noble....

because it simply isn't.

egner

i didnt mention mourinho..........you did [you still hurting]

i started this thread not mentioning any kind of defensive strategy, i questioned the effectiveness of tippy tappy football against a more didect approach.

you then, for your own reasons decided i didnt want to talk about that at all, but something completely differnt, then the monkey decided the same.

can you berks not read?

or are you too stupid to formulate an opinion on the question raised so you want to go back to shout at your favourite bogeyman?

as i saids i've managed to discuss this many times on here, with people who had half an idea.

it seems those days are gone.

I don't think that's right biscuit. Real have a game in hand don't they? Win that and they are 3 behind with a better goal difference? If Atletico win those two but lose to Barca, and Real win all their games, they finish above Atletico don't they?

CCM....it  goes on head-to-head in Spain...Atletico won and drew with Real in the two meetings

La liga is done on h2h record if 2 sides are level and Atletico took 4 points from Real this season

Ah right, wondered that as I posted it. Apologies biscuit.

Bloody Europeans do it properly with h2h having priority

What kind of manager tells his team not to shoot .
Pep heading for job seekers forms until he can inherit another team to wreck.

no mexicano those days are not gone....

..but please....hurting????? ..about what...I am a spurs fan...I can cope with losing....but boring everyone to death because my ego cant cope with losing ??...that's a different matter.

..being more scared of losing than you are keen to win.....how very sad.....being afraid of utilising your world class attacking players to full effect...in case you are attacked and bested by a better team.. how very sad..

..you start the thread about tactical masterclaas...then....when a team causes havoc in the same vein as your own..(but far more effectively excecuted)...you start this thread....

..please don't tell me it wasn't loaded with a justification bias from the start

PEP was coach from 2008 to June 2012 with BARCA and won CL twice with Barca and once with BAYERN.

BARCA players were getting older and , just like BAYERN, age has taken edge off their pace.........and this IMO is why both clubs were not at their best in recent year.

Nothing to do with so called "tippy etc " failing.....just players getting too old to operate at same pace level.

PEP has proved with BARCA and BAYERN that it can be highly effective way to play.

REAL MADRID have not really improved ......just BAYERN players are not young enough to operate the way they did last year.

Will be interesting to see the CHELSEA old age pensioners parking the bus against RM ....if they get through to final.

ROGERS used wrong tactics against CHELSEA ......his players predictably worked very hard 1st half .......in sunshine....and CHELSEA stole a goal on break. had LIVERPOOL just kept possession , without trying too hard to score 1st half....then they would have had enough energy 2nd half to control the game .

PEP has proved to be one of the best coaches since 2008........FACT.....

MOURINHO has not achieved 1 CL since 2008, whereas PEP has won 3 CLs and in league dominated championship with BARCA ( 3 to RM 's 1 in 4 year period 2008 to 2012).................So has "tippy tappy" failed over the 4 years ......NO based on facts.

"PEP was coach from 2008 to June 2012 with BARCA and won CL twice with Barca and once with BAYERN"

"MOURINHO has not achieved 1 CL since 2008, whereas PEP has won 3 CLs"




Guardiola has only won 2 CLs, he wasn't the Bayern boss last season.

A bit knackered tonight...and of course you are correct.

Still believe RM have not improved that much since M left them......just BARCA and BAYERN players have lost their pace.

So probably just a pause in "tippy tappy" football.......though must admit it can be pretty boring if not played at pace.

Try playing that type of football without a Messi.
Even the National side had Torres and Villa when they were fearsome players.

Pep seems a top man but where is Rikyaard now?
He also rode on the back of the worlds best.

Only manager to mess it up with Messi at his disposal was Peckerman in World Cup against Germany.

As for Liverpools Rogers experiment, long may it continue, done over by an individual error.
Other th

Try playing that type of football without a Messi.
Even the National side had Torres and Villa when they were fearsome players.

Pep seems a top man but where is Rikyaard now?
He also rode on the back of the worlds best.

Only manager to mess it up with Messi at his disposal was Peckerman in World Cup against Germany.

As for Liverpools Rogers experiment, long may it continue, done over by an individual error.
Other th

i realise that they were very succesfull playing that way, bit there was an argument to be had that if they'd been more direct, with the players they had they might have scored more goals, and saved us having to watch interminable passes back and forwards across the midfield.

Barcelona did play in  a conventional attacking way the season before Pep , with all the same players (+ Ronaldinho ) . They finished 10pts behind Villareal .

It's just not justifiable to not give him most of the credit for Barca 2008-2011 .

He invented a new way of playing that other teams could not cope with at all .They totally dominated virtually every game they played (even the odd few they drew or lost) .

Eventually other coaches (and Mourinho was one tbf ) figured that when you do get the ball off a team like that , you don't try to keep possession yourself , you don't pass it to your nearest team mate either , you just smash it upfield into the huge space behind the tiki taka pressing , and hope to have 2 or 3 players fast enough to create a chance . You basically accept you are hardly gonna see the ball , but when you do you try to score a goal every time .

Teams like this Real Madrid side didn't exist 5 years ago  , but now they have been built (again i say partly by Mourinho ) it is a problem for Guardiola . Maybe he will struggle to get the better of it  but that still doesn't lessen his achievement with Barca .

sorry....other than that, Chelsea defence held good.
All it showed was Rogers inherited a weak squad and will have some major decisions to make.

Barca style of play will change over next two years.
Nonsense about conveyor belt will be found out.

We will see...tactics do change.

I have watched footy since early 70s and it just evolves....sometimes with players....rules...equipment???

Pep will be under pressure now..job is like that.

"He invented a new way of playing that other teams could not cope with at all .They totally dominated virtually every game they played (even the odd few they drew or lost)"




Exactly. Earlier this season, Barça conceded more than 50% of the ball to Vallecano in a league game, the first time they had failed to dominate possession in a match since 2008. 6 YEARS!!

I expect the opening statement can be backed up with statistics showing Barca's sheer dourness and lack of goals under Pep and Villanova.

Ultimately, every system has flaws. Players can have off days, opposition can have days when everything goes right, red cards, set piece goals, just coming up against teams with great players. There is not one infallible system.

However, I'd say Pep's Barca of a couple of years ago is the closest I've seen to footballing perfection in all my time watching the sport. Not remotely passing for fun, but ruthless and brutal in forcing mistakes, incredibly skillful and inventive in their play and (strangely) scored goals for fun.

The fact that hasn't yet been repeated elsewhere doesn't diminish it imo.

guardiola has turned bayern from a team that overcame barca last season into a poor shadow of a tippy tappy team.....why?

they had all the attributes, they could play against whatever was put in front of them,exciting to watch, and very effective.

there is more than one way to play football [thank god] and i would suggest that in the regimes that are a bit more stringent re drugs that the high intesity,high pressing game, then tippy tapping about ad finitum might just have had it's day, and we might see a bit more of players trying to make telling passes and having the odd shot on goal.

someone just posted on the match thread.

did the real goalie make a save over the two legs????????????

by the way i find it intruiging that somebody can just come out with a statement such as

REAL MADRID have not really improved

so the aquisition of bale hasnt helped them at all?  ffs

madrid are a lot more potent going forward with bale, and what's more getting shot of urzill seems to have lifted the shackles off modric,

Haven't Bayern just got a record points total and through to their cup final and won the world thingy and that's taking them backwards? Seeing as they won the treble last year it's hard to see how they could go anywhere but backwards unless they were gonna have a go at Eurovision and Crufts too.

They were well beaten by a brilliant team who have some great players and a brilliant coach. Sometimes you've just gotta say the other team were better. Not sure it proves anything long term though

Adding Bale simply made them even more potent at counter-attacking. I'm not sure why anybody is lauding the tactical genius involved in playing this way.

People come along every now and then and decide to play in a certain way. But football is a simple game. Have a solid defence, midfield of skilful players and hard tough tacklers. Vary your attacking options so you dont become too predictable, and you have the answer to it all.

Guardiola succeeded at Barca coz he had 3 all time greats in the team at the same time. He doesnt have that at Bayern, and its difficult to operate possession football against the top sides now as the system has been sussed.

Parking the bus is a legitimate tactic in football. All falls apart if the opposition scores early though. But i dont think many people realise how difficult it actually is, to operate that tactic successfully. Mourinho can manage it because he is a complete profeesional, and practises all aspects of the game on the training ground.

watching bayern a few times this season and last ,there only real goal threat seem to come from robben cutting inside and either shooting or whipping a ball in,not quite sure why they need to have the 20 passes in the midfield before this happens

mostr amazing thing over the 2 legs was that although bayern hardly created in either game the so called best coach in the world never once asked his widemen to switch wings,a sunday pub team would have give this a go