Football
there are only 3 contenders........pele, diego and Messi.
gotta be messi.
no one else in the modern (post 1992) era breaks 0.7.
Sep 24, 2013 -- 11:15PM, Over2.5 wrote:
diego is simply the best player ever... cant even imagine what he would do in that current barca team.. 150 goals a season maybe ??
Maradona wouldnt even come close to Messi.
He was an individual who turned up for training and games when he like it and was a proven drugs cheat.
He didnt have the mentality to produce at a top team and was more suited to a smaller club where he call the shots and turn up when he felt like it.
how do you compare the last 8 of the UCL with
Brasil
Argentina
Uruguay
France
Italy
espana
Deutsch
Netherlands?
Bearing in mind those international teams have unlimited playing potential at their disposal, have been preparing for the world cup for 2 years and dont have the distraction of league football 3 days later?
Sep 24, 2013 -- 11:24PM, Platini wrote:
drugs cheat?
Sep 24, 2013 -- 11:24PM, Platini wrote:
drugs cheat?
Sep 24, 2013 -- 11:24PM, Platini wrote:
drugs cheat?
mere presence of brasil and arg confounds that
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er, no they don't. they have playing potential limited by nationality. whereas club sides can buy who they want, limited only by money. they also play together continually, which raises the standard of competition.
I'd back half a dozen club sides to do well in pretty much any world cup; there's usually one or two national sides about that I'd give a prayer to in the CL.
There are about 150m people in brasil, half of them by my best estimate eligible to play for the mens national team.
This idea that the UCL is the best thing since sliced bread is a something people have to get over.
Yes its a good competition but seeing as it runs concurrently with national leagues does have a debilitating effect on its quality.
duh.
Drawn against Real Madrid in Round 1 in '87 , and lost to a russian team on pens in '90 . It was not like these days when you can lose to Celtic and still coast through the group .One bad night and it was all over. They did win The UEFA Cup which had a lot of strength in depth back then.
The Italian League was not so strong in 1984/85 as restrictions on signing foreigners had only just been relaxed as i recall . From mid 80s though Serie A was just taking the best players from every league except Spain year on year and so between about 1987-1994 it was the strongest league there had ever been IMO
Obviously Maradona did not win things 'on his own' but the point is how unlikely any World Cups or Serie A Titles would have been won by those teams without him .
Sep 25, 2013 -- 12:55AM, tobermory wrote:
why didnt napoli win the european cup?Drawn against Real Madrid in Round 1 in '87 , and lost to a russian team on pens in '90 . It was not like these days when you can lose to Celtic and still coast through the group .One bad night and it was all over. They did win The UEFA Cup which had a lot of strength in depth back then.The Italian League was not so strong in 1984/85 as restrictions on signing foreigners had only just been relaxed as i recall . From mid 80s though Serie A was just taking the best players from every league except Spain year on year and so between about 1987-1994 it was the strongest league there had ever been IMOObviously Maradona did not win things 'on his own' but the point is how unlikely any World Cups or Serie A Titles would have been won by those teams without him .
Teams being not as likely to win without their best player is nothing new. It applies to virtually every team around the world.
When Napoli won the league in the late 80s Maradona missed 6 games and they won four of them. Their record was good.
As with Argentina, they had a very similar standard team in 1990 where Maradona was by and large poor and they only lost to a penalty in the final.
The European trophies being knock out back then did not make them harder to win.
i await the onslaught now about 1980's italian defences.
Messi is the first and only player to top-score in four consecutive Champions League campaigns, and also holds the record for the most hat-tricks scored in the history of the competition. In March 2012, Messi made Champions League history by becoming the first player to score five goals in one match. He also matched José Altafini's record of 14 goals in a single Champions League season. Messi set the European record for most goals scored in a season during the 2011–12 season, with 73 goals. In the same season, he set the current goalscoring record in a single La Liga season, scoring 50 goals. Also in that season, Messi became the first player ever to have scored as well as assisted in six different official competitions in one season. On 16 February 2013, Messi scored his 300th Barcelona goal. On 30 March 2013, Messi scored in his 19th consecutive La Liga game, becoming the first footballer in history to net in consecutive matches against every team in a professional football league. Messi later extended his record scoring streak to 21 consecutive league matches. The run ultimately came to a halt in a match against Atlético Madrid in which he had to leave play due to a hamstring injury.
God knows how many he will have scored by the time he retires.
73 goals is insane.
this lad aint finished yet.
Argentina getting to the 1990 Final was miraculous really and mostly down to luck and the ineptitude of the opposition, though Maradona had his moments such as the pass that opened up Brazil.
The 1986 Win was so much down to him . Teams were so occupied with Maradona they played very cautiously and only went for it when they were 2 down . England and Germany did this for 15 minutes and the Argentina defence was all over the place very quickly . Burruchaga and Valdano were good players but if you made a team of the tournament i could only see Diego making the 11 from the winners ( the 2010 tournament team would surely have 4 or 5 from Spain)
Napoli had lots of good players but the Milan team had several of the greatest players of the last 50 years and Napoli were competing with them very closely for several seasons.
No he would not, he would not have tactical Italian coaches literally making the entire team centred around him like he's had at Barca for years, Messi's record is great, but most of his goals have come from the donkey work of Xavi Iniesta and co and scored in the box after passing the ball into a coma, he is great, but how great would he be in a shirt other than barca ?
He has recently being playing better for Argentina and scoring more, but mostly against lesser opposition, he doesn't quite look the same messi as he does in Europe.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:23AM, tobermory wrote:
Not harder to win , but a lot easier to go out early . Argentina getting to the 1990 Final was miraculous really and mostly down to luck and the ineptitude of the opposition, though Maradona had his moments such as the pass that opened up Brazil.The 1986 Win was so much down to him . Teams were so occupied with Maradona they played very cautiously and only went for it when they were 2 down . England and Germany did this for 15 minutes and the Argentina defence was all over the place very quickly . Burruchaga and Valdano were good players but if you made a team of the tournament i could only see Diego making the 11 from the winners ( the 2010 tournament team would surely have 4 or 5 from Spain)Napoli had lots of good players but the Milan team had several of the greatest players of the last 50 years and Napoli were competing with them very closely for several seasons.
Argentina got to that final with a bit of luck and a strong defence.
Luck played a part in 1986 as well with a few huge decisions going in their favour.
By and large the teams that have won the world cup in the last 30 years have been the ones with the best defensive record and Argentina had the best defence in 1986 and 1990.
It may well have been easier to go out earlier back then but teams from Scotland were getting to finals and you dont get tough draws every year.
Napoli never competed with Milan anymore than Inter or Sampdoria.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:27AM, AyersRock wrote:
messi would not have scored 40 league goals a season in 1980's seria A football but he would have scored a hell of a lot more than maradonnaNo he would not, he would not have tactical Italian coaches literally making the entire team centred around him like he's had at Barca for years, Messi's record is great, but most of his goals have come from the donkey work of Xavi Iniesta and co and scored in the box after passing the ball into a coma, he is great, but how great would he be in a shirt other than barca ?He has recently being playing better for Argentina and scoring more, but mostly against lesser opposition, he doesn't quite look the same messi as he does in Europe.
Thats just not true, Messis goals dont just come from the 'donkey work of Xavi and Iniesta' at all.
The team is far weaker when he is not there even when the other two are.
No one has more international goals than Messi in the last two years and by 25 he had scored more goals at intl level than Maradona managed.
These goals have not all come against poor teams and the standard of teams that S American teams play in qualifying is much higher than in europe.
stupid comment, considering the goals he has scored. how do these guys come up with this stuff.
messi waltz's thru defecnes every week.
1987 : 1st (before Careca signed)
1988 : 2nd (blew a big lead late on there)
1989 : 2nd
1990 : 1st
After 1990, actually during it looking at that World Cup , Maradona was just never really fit again , either due to the accumulated knee injuries and/or his chaotic lifestyle.
Sampdoria won it in '91 and Inter also had incredible players, including 3 of the best from Germany's World Cup side ,and really player for player should also have been somewhat superior to Napoli .
And I never said his goals in south America come against poorer sides, I said lesser sides than European clubs - the majority of courtiers in south America are lesser (the word I used) opposition than the majority of the top European clubs, but that's neither here nor there, I'll put it like this - would messi is an Argentinian side be able to score as frequently against top European clubs as he does for barca I would guess not because he doesn't have the same service and the same quality around him
Messi will make about 10-12 sprints a game trying to go thru defences, and most of the time it doesn't come off - most of his goals are inside the box and at the end of a long passing sequence
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:46AM, tobermory wrote:
Napoli were their main/most consistent competitors over 3 or 4 years . Maradona's achievement at Napoli can be exaggerated 'he won it on his own' , but he was the difference between their being in The Title Race and being candidates for 3rd/4th/5th1987 : 1st (before Careca signed) 1988 : 2nd (blew a big lead late on there)1989 : 2nd 1990 : 1stAfter 1990, actually during it looking at that World Cup , Maradona was just never really fit again , either due to the accumulated knee injuries and/or his chaotic lifestyle.Sampdoria won it in '91 and Inter also had incredible players, including 3 of the best from Germany's World Cup side ,and really player for player should also have been somewhat superior to Napoli .
Napoli had a very strong squad and certainly not inferior to Inter or Sampdoria.
Of course he was a massive difference but so to was the likes of Matheus at Inter he came along and improved them hugely.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:46AM, AyersRock wrote:
I know I said most of his goals come from them - not all, And I never said his goals in south America come against poorer sides, I said lesser sides than European clubs - the majority of courtiers in south America are lesser (the word I used) opposition than the majority of the top European clubs, but that's neither here nor there, I'll put it like this - would messi is an Argentinian side be able to score as frequently against top European clubs as he does for barca I would guess not because he doesn't have the same service and the same quality around him
Probably not but who is claiming he would score as many?
He is still scoring more at international level than any other player in the world these past two seasons and doing all that while basically running the game and creating chances.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:47AM, AyersRock wrote:
Do you even watch Barcelona brain dead jockeys?Messi will make about 10-12 sprints a game trying to go thru defences, and most of the time it doesn't come off - most of his goals are inside the box and at the end of a long passing sequence
Not at all, Messi scores more individual goals than any other player in the world and has also been the most creative player in europe the past few seaosons.
Yet you try to make him sound like a goal hanger.
A lot of the goals he does score in the box he has burst in there having been involved in the build up to it anyway.
The simple point I am making is - people laud messi as the greatest ever when he has only ever done it for one club that is completely built around him and as of yet - has not done for his country what Maradona did.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 1:54AM, AyersRock wrote:
Yes I think I could score a hat trick against Guatemala and create those chance for myself too, The simple point I am making is - people laud messi as the greatest ever when he has only ever done it for one club that is completely built around him and as of yet - has not done for his country what Maradona did.
And Maradona never did at club level what Messi has done.
Napoli was built round him to the extent they signed players that he requested.
Maradona too had poor teams to play against at intl level, all players have that not just Messi.
The fact is that Messi has by 25 scored more for Argentina than Maradona did in his career.
Maradona was never half as disciplined as messi, if he were....
There is no way anyone can seriously argue that Napoli's team were almost on the same level as Inter or Milan ,and that Maradona just made a bit of a difference .He was clearly an immense difference.
Sep 25, 2013 -- 2:01AM, AyersRock wrote:
He won a world cup, messi can score as many goals as he likes in friendlies (of which there are a lot more now) and against sub standard opposition (compared to what hes used to) but if he doesn't shine in a world cup the debate will always be there, like I've said - he is great, but the greatest or better than Maradona? debatable all day long with no definitive answerMaradona was never half as disciplined as messi, if he were....
He did win a world cup, no doubt.
But his club career has been dwarfed by Messi.
Maradona scored 17 goals in official games for Argentina in 51 games.
Messi will better that for sure and cant be far off it already.
I doubt he will have as good a single world cup but thats not the deciding factor.
still going at it I see
Thanks to tober, Geordie, plat, ayers rock - gday mate! - for fighting the good fight. And anyone else I forgot to mention. I apologise
The thing with Barcelona is that its them that make Messi good, not the other way round.
Their possession football can be a thing to behold tho it does look as if the Germans have found them out now.
It is almost impossible to get the ball off guys like xavi, iniesta, fabregas, even busquets.
They all have 90% pass completion rates which means nearly every possession will end up bearing down on the opponents goal.
Its tailor made for Messi.
The fact that Spain went on to win the world cup plus 2 Euros goes to show that the barca boys can do it without Leo.
If you wanted to say Guardiola's Barca were the best team of all time, I would have more sympathy with that argument than the Messi one
Sep 25, 2013 -- 12:35PM, YOMOMMA wrote:
What about when he plays Celtic? He never scores against them and they are crap.
He has scored 3 goals in his last two visits to Celtic Park.
This idea that the Barcelona team make Messi look good is insane!
He has been by far the best player in intl football these past two years and you only have to look at the difference there was without Messi against PSG and Bayern last season.
I never saw Pele so couldn't comment on him, but the Messi/Maradona argument may be best saved for when both have finished their careers - Christ knows what the numbers will look like when Messi hangs up his boots. All I do know is that in just about any other era Cristiano Ronaldo would be peerless, but right now he's generally acknowledged to be Messi's inferior.
Xavi made his debut in 1998 and won 1 trophy in 6 seasons before Messi arrived.
Iniesta made his debut in 2002 and won 0 trophies in 2 seasons before Messi arrived.
In 2 seasons together, Xavi and Iniesta won NOTHING.
Then, this little Argentinian appeared in the team, making his Barca debut in 2005 and since then they've won 21 trophies in 9 seasons.
It doesn't take a genius to work out which player was the catalyst for this success.
Anyway the point was to thelatarps who is trying to claim that Messi is only as good as he is because he has Xavi and Iniesta behind him. The history books say that's complete b*llocks.
Lionel Messi.
I think we know who the answer will be.
Xavi: "If he continues like this then I think Messi will be the best player in the history of football,"
Iniesta: "Without a doubt, there is Messi dependence in the team in the sense that he's a fundamental player. We need to reach June with all the options to win titles. Leo is a fundamental and decisive player for us: he's the No.1.”
Ronaldinho: "Cristiano Ronaldo is making history for a few years now, but I still think that it's Lionel Messi who is the current best football player in the World"
Eto'o: "Messi is a god, as a person and even more as a player"
anybody not starting from the premise that messi and maradona are both exceptional players needs to shut up and let the grown ups sort it out.
"barcelona make messi look good". christ on a bike.
Something that self appointed geniuses like el pres and biscuit need to wise up to.
Messi has failed at the world cup and the copa america
If you dont see the latter stages of the world cup, ie quarter finals with Germany (lost 0-4 btw), as the highest level of the game then you have a problem.
Yes Messi has proven himself in the UCL, which is also played at the game's highest level but if you cant see that Messi won the UCL with the very same players who are world champions then again you have another problem.
The simple truth is Messi succeeds at UCL with Barca
Has failed (so far) with Arg at World cups
He cannot by any rational logic be better than Pele and Maradona who succeeded at every level they turned their prodigious talents to.
MESSI'S goalscoring record is there for everyone to see. ITS INSANE. messi would still be the greatest player in history without those two.
no one has scored great goals in teh quantity messi has.
messi was 19 in the first world cup and was on the bench half of teh time. he was not part of the managers plan. so please leave that one out.
he still has two more world cups to come. your parameter for greatness seems to be international footbal alone. your arguement is flawed. most great players will play abut 10 meaningful international games in their career. they will play in about 60 meaningful champs league matches, in messi's case, about 100.
You can't compare era's for many reasons I can't be bothered to list but what can be talked about is what made certain players great and what gives them artificial elevation in some people's mind - and in my mind in regards to Messi it's that he has been lucky enough to have been apart of one of the greatest club sides ever seen at least in the current generations eyes - Barca donn't make Messi look good, they allow him to flourish as much as any footballer could hope for it's like I keep saying - the entire team is completely built around him and if you watch them you'd know that, it's designed to get the best from him - as thelatarps has said he is playing with many world and european cup winners.
Nobody is saying he isn't great, but to say he is the greatest without question is in a word - retarded.
He has played two World Cups - was Argentinas youngest ever goal scorer in one and did not play in the game they got eliminated. In the second he was nominated as one of the players of the tournament.
In the Copa American he has played two. In one he was along with Riquelme far and away Argentinas best player until getting beat by Brazil in the final and in the other he was quiet in parts but was still easily Argentinas best player.
Maradona had ONE good intl tournament in almost 20 years!
total goals scored by napoli in their 1986-87 serie a win: 41
Sep 25, 2013 -- 7:23PM, geordie1956 wrote:
Very good points raised by AyersRock - statistics by themselves are meaningless - unless you have seen the players yourself then it is a pointless excercise discussing who was definitively the best - I did see Pele in 1970 and I stand by my view that he is and was the best of all but everyone has their own opinion
I have watched most of the WC 1970 games and today there is much more footage of Pele available than in 1970.
We are able to make a better judgement than ever before.
25 Sep 13 15:01
16 Nov 10
Well i'm not going to deny that Ronaldinho and Eto'o were great players but it's undeniable that Barca's success reached new levels once Messi appeared
Biscuit did Messi, Goofy and Eto'o play in the same side for a season? I think they did and were the most exciting side I have ever seen if they did, apart from Brazil 1970 of course and Brazil 1982 oh and Milan of Gullit, Van Basten and Frank R, tippy tappy is not great football, skilful no doubt but not exciting.
He must be Jake the Peg then because he could play with either foot
but I think i heard that somewhere too!
nail on the head
They played together for about 3 seasons but in the last season Ronaldinho was injured quite a bit and was shipped out when Guardiola took over in 2008
"The fact that Spain went on to win the world cup plus 2 Euros goes to show that the barca boys can do it without Leo."
nail on the head
It probably helped that they had the services of Casillas, Ramos, Alonso, Javi Martinez, Silva, Mata, Navas, Torres, Soldado plus the likes of Villa, Fabregas and Jordi Alba before they joined Barca.
3 (D) G Pique
5 (D) C Puyol
11 (D) J Capdevila
15 (D) S Ramos
6 (M) A Iniesta
8 (M) Xavi
14 (M) X Alonso (87)
16 (M) S Busquets
7 (F) D Villa (89)
18 (F) Pedro (60)
Spain starting xi for world cup final 2010
by my reckoning 6 barca players
Dear Mr Rider
perhaps you could enlighten us as to what level a germany argentina wc 1/4 final corresponds to an equivalent fixture in your beloved champions league?
bayer leverkusen v sociedad maybe?
surely thats too exalted company for a lowly international fix like Ger Arg
sorry my bad
Maybe I am pushing the envelope too far with
anderlecht v olympiakos?
Ok
time to show my hand
will you permit me
Neftchi Baku v Skenderbeu Korce?
Mr Rider
I humbly beseech you sir.
Added to that they play inferior opposition than Barcelona and the other top CL teams come up against.
This argument that the Spanish players in the team have proved they are good enough without Messi is nonsense. they dont dominate the ball Barcelona have for a start.
Nobody will ever touch Diego apart from maybe Bryan Robson circa 1982
...well, someone had to say it.
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27 Sep 13 18:55 Joined: 28 Dec 11 | Topic/replies: 286 | Blogger: geordie1956's blog
Previous posting the most stupid yet on this thread - enough said
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geordie1956
geordie1956 27 Sep 13 18:55 Joined: 28 Dec 11 | Topic/replies: 286 | Blogger: geordie1956's blog
Previous posting the most stupid yet on this thread - enough said
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