Football
The "safe option" is a misnomer.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 5:43PM, Biscuit1979 wrote:
It doesn't matter what they've won in the last 4 years, he's taking over next summer. And he's taking over a team on top of their game who will quite likely be champions. Bayern have an established settled side. Neuer (26), Alaba (20), Badstuber (23), Lahm, Kroos (23), Schweinsteiger, Muller (23), Javi Martinez (24), Shaqiri (21), Mandzukic (26) and then Robben, Ribery and Gomez. Bayern have and buy all the best talent.Every other side in Germany ends up selling their best talent, e.g. Ozil, Khedira, Sahin, Marin, Holtby, Kagawa, Podolski. Lewandowski has refused to sign a new deal. Gotze will be on his way soon enough.It's no contest as to whether Bayern is a safe option at this moment in time.
Biscuit -
I could point out all the talent the teams in England lose just as easily - Fabregas, Modric etc.
Do you honestly believe that Dortmund are a poorer side than Man City and Chelsea. Or that Shalke are poorer than Arsenal?
jf he's as good as a lot of people think bayern will be fabulous.
if he's half as good as they think he'll win the league and do well in europe.
He's the biggest name in management. Bayern Munich are one of the biggest names in football. If he's successful they'll displace Barcelona as the best side in Europe. That has nothing to do with being the "safe option", that's thoughtful career development.
thoughtful career development, or money for old rope?
If they win a title every second year, a cup competition every second year and doenst win the CL then he has carried on the norm as they have had the last ten years.
If he improves on that then he has been a success.
he dosen't need to do too much to be regarded as succesfull.
the success is already there.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:01PM, mexicano wrote:
that's the point jam.he dosen't need to do too much to be regarded as succesfull.the success is already there.
No I think you missed the point.
If he takes them to a new level of success than they have not been achieving in the last ten years then that will be him taking them to a new level.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:03PM, Biscuit1979 wrote:
The only way i see him being under any pressure there is if Heynckes wins the CL this year
Biscuit - what would it take for Guardiola to have done a brilliant job at Bayern?
but if he "marks time", he'll still be regarded as a reasonablr success.
hence the safe option.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:05PM, hippie wrote:
He has to win the Champions League. Anything less and he will have failed.
So he wins three league titles and doesnt win the CL and he has failed?
Why would that be a failure?
Incapable of building his own and knows it
Barca was franks team and he was the luckiest guy on earth anyone on this forum could have took over that team
He has to win the Champions League. Anything less and he will have failed.
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with a team that should have won it last season.
could be regarded as not a lot to do.
therefore safe option.
but, by the way it wouldn't neccesarily mean failure if he improved the club in other ways
He'll be taking over a side who will (barring a disaster) be Bundesliga champions and they'll probably win the cup too (they're at home to Dortmund in the quarters).
So let's say he takes over a side who've just won the double. He can only improve on that by winning the CL. Anything else and he's just continuing what Heynckes already did.
Why is not doing something they have not managed in over ten years a failure?
two titles on the trot]first for fifty years]numerous cups.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:08PM, hippie wrote:
Bayern Munich are judged on their success in Europe. That's how big they are.
So they have not been succesful for over ten years?
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:10PM, mexicano wrote:
of course mourinho was a success at chelsea.two titles on the trot]first for fifty years]numerous cups.
But he was brought in to win the CL.
They were the easiest job in the country when he took over and were outspending everyone to win the title and has by far the best squad.
They could play the whole season behind closed doors and still make tens of (if not hundreds of) millions of pounds. That constitutes success to me.
They are Bayern Munich. That constitutes success to me.
so if you're saying not winning the cl is failure that's ridiculous.
as i said if the club just carries on as they are that will be regarded by some as being successful.
hence the "safe option"
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:12PM, hippie wrote:
They were in the Champions League final in May. That constitutes success to me.They could play the whole season behind closed doors and still make tens of (if not hundreds of) millions of pounds. That constitutes success to me.They are Bayern Munich. That constitutes success to me.
Sorry but getting beat in the CL final is not seen as success by any of the big clubs.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:15PM, hippie wrote:
you're the spokesman for "the big clubs"?
As much as you are I am.
If you think any of the biggest clubs see getting beat in the final of the CL as a success then you dont have any idea at all.
An achievement to get their possibly. Success - not a chance.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:17PM, mexicano wrote:
so by jam's reckoning 99.999% of managers fail.
What on earth does that mean?
Mourinho at Chelsea certainly did that.
If guardiola wins the league or the double then i'm not sure he is improving Bayern. The league is probably expected by the Bayern board at the start of each season.
You keep going on about what they won 2/3/4 even 10 seasons ago, but this is Heynckes team now. He took over in 2011. He's taken them to a CL final and will probably leave having won the double. So Guardiola has to equal or better that really. If he wins the CL, well done, amazing achievement, hats off to him. If he just wins a couple of league titles then i (and no doubt many others) will say 'so what, so he should with that squad and those resources'.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:18PM, Biscuit1979 wrote:
JamDav - in my opinion you can be judged a success if you improve on what has gone before.Mourinho at Chelsea certainly did that.If guardiola wins the league or the double then i'm not sure he is improving Bayern. The league is probably expected by the Bayern board at the start of each season.You keep going on about what they won 2/3/4 even 10 seasons ago, but this is Heynckes team now. He took over in 2011. He's taken them to a CL final and will probably leave having won the double. So Guardiola has to equal or better that really. If he wins the CL, well done, amazing achievement, hats off to him. If he just wins a couple of league titles then i (and no doubt many others) will say 'so what, so he should with that squad and those resources'.
Biscuit going by last ten years winning a league more than a league or cup every second season would be a success in your book is that correct?
I am not saying a huge amazing success for me that would take the CL also.
you say that getting to the cl final is not regarded as success.
therefore every manager who dosen't win it by definition is unsuccessful.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:21PM, mexicano wrote:
saying the exact opposite?you say that getting to the cl final is not regarded as success.therefore every manager who dosen't win it by definition is unsuccessful.
100% I am saying that the top clubs do not consider getting beat in the final of the CL as success. As an achievement for some maybe but success not at all.
That is totally different to saying that not winning the CL is a failure.
My point about Mourinho was that he was a massive success for Chelsea despite the fact he had the best squad, most money etc but didnt win the CL.
Whilst some on the betfair forum would like to see Pep take a 'challenge' where he could prove how talented he is or be shown up he was always likely to take a job that he felt would enhance his reputation.
He is a young manager and going to Bayern will give him the opportunity to prove himself.
Why any top manager would touch chelsea is beyond me. With financial fair play on the way the challenge at City and Chelsea will become much harder.
Bayern unlike Chelsea and City are one of Europe's super clubs.
at bayern he's starting from a much higher base.
if chelsea had continued in the same manner as before when mourinho came he would have been regarded as unsuccessful.
if bayern continue as they have in the next few years he'll be regarded as reasonably successful'
If you say it is then you too are saying that 95% of clubs are 'unsuccessful'
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:28PM, mexicano wrote:
but mourinho was starting from a very low base as far as trophies won is concerned.at bayern he's starting from a much higher base.if chelsea had continued in the same manner as before when mourinho came he would have been regarded as unsuccessful.if bayern continue as they have in the next few years he'll be regarded as reasonably successful'
The trophies won in the previous years is largely irrelevant when it comes to billionaires building up a squad within a few years.
Chelsea arguably had the strongest squad in europe during Mourinhos time there and he didnt deliver the CL.
How about QF's?
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:30PM, mexicano wrote:
of course it's a success. the fact that some "big" clubs take that level of achievement for granted dosen't mean it's not an achievement.
Massive difference between and achievement and success.
It is staggering how much you contradict yourself.
A few posts ago only winning the CL at Bayern made Pep a success yet the next breath you state any big club getting to the semi finals should see that a a success!
What is it?
who has the better season.
a team that challenges on all fronts and narrowly misses out on a couple of trophies.
or a team that "flukes" the cl
because it can be fluked you know as a few english clubs have proved.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:33PM, mexicano wrote:
tell me this'who has the better season.a team that challenges on all fronts and narrowly misses out on a couple of trophies.or a team that "flukes" the clbecause it can be fluked you know as a few english clubs have proved.
You are all over the place with your points.
The team that flukes the CL has been more successful clearly.
A few posts ago only winning the CL at Bayern made Pep a success yet the next breath you state any big club getting to the semi finals should see that a a success!
What is it?
Why would he go to Man Utd- club in major financial strife,he would have to follow Ferguson who will hand over an ageing and deterioating squad
My word, i have seen some tosh on here but this is a cracker
exactly mw.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:38PM, A_T wrote:
Seem obvious he wants a job with managable stress and expectations. Does not fancy the gladitorial aspects of football management as in PL and Spain. There is no way Ferguson or Mourinho would take a year off for a sabbatical.
Perhaps that is why Mourinho has lost the plot this season.
Maybe needs a break.
They were saying that 10 years ago.
you must not dream up things that you say i said in order to contradict them.
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A few posts ago only winning the CL at Bayern made Pep a succes
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where did i say that.?
as regards your latest post.
are you really telling me that a club can fluke a knock out competition can be regarded as being more successful than team sthat have played well all season?
if you do i will say that you're putting too much emphasis on a knock out comp.
it's nice for the fans when the club goes a long way in it, and now and again the best team in europe actually win it.
but to my mind it dosen't prove one way or another the merit of a manager, because quite a few ordinary managers have won it.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:43PM, TheBetterBettor wrote:
soo if city sack Mancini at the end of the season....would you still put your mortage on pep working in Germany??
Yes as they would sack him now if they could have got their hands on Guardiola.
In there squad they have the likes of De Gea, Rafael, Smallings, Jones, Evans, Anderson, Hernandez, Nani, Rooney, Young, etc who will be around for many years to come.
You may or may not rate these players but every year they are first or second.
The only ageing player who plays regularly is Rio.
at bayern, the default expectation is to win the league and whatever cup competion is there. if he did well in CL, i can see him doing well in EPL.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:47PM, henok wrote:
pep is overrated manager. just look at all the managerial nobodies who took at barca before him and after him. all of them had a comparable success. frank rijkard, pep and now vinalova. the sucess at barca is due to some exceptional talent not the managers. but to be honest pep was better than many of them. at bayern, the default expectation is to win the league and whatever cup competion is there. if he did well in CL, i can see him doing well in EPL.
Wow what an ignorant post.
No manager in history did what he did at Barcelona and as of yet Villanova has not won anything (league clearly on way).
They were third the season he took over.
he has to improve the club.
regardless of the cl, he would have to make the club more dominant in germany than they already are.
i know not everybody regards the cl in the same manner as i do, to me it's the "icing".
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:49PM, mexicano wrote:
what does he have to do?he has to improve the club.regardless of the cl, he would have to make the club more dominant in germany than they already are.i know not everybody regards the cl in the same manner as i do, to me it's the "icing".
Thats fine.
May have gone the long way round it but that is exactly my opinion also.
Arsenal probably had the best young squad for the last ten years.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:53PM, mexicano wrote:
but according to you he'd be more successful if he fluked the cl.
If he won the CL he would be more successful yes. However it was won.
The german league is now one of the top 3 leagues in europe. Unlike Spain and England most of its clubs are solvent and well placed for FFP
Jan 16, 2013 -- 6:58PM, mexicano wrote:
so by your logic rdm is a more succesful manager than wenger?
Not at all but he was last season.
Probably means jack to all the asian fans.
the cl is very poor barometer for managerial competence.
Ferdinand,RVP,Scholes,Giggs, Valencia,Evra,Vidic etc etc
Ferdinand coming to the end granted will need replacing
RVP is 29 - at his prime
Scholes & Giggs - bit part players now
Valencia is 27
Evra - i would say he is a liability and when Utd replace him they will be stronger.
Vidic is 31 - has hardly played over the last 12 months but if he gets fit will have another two years at least in him.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 7:00PM, mexicano wrote:
as i nsaid earlierthe cl is very poor barometer for managerial competence.
No it is not. One team getting a lucky run to final doesnt change that fact.
Other winners in last few years - Mourinho, Guardiola and Ferguson.
they were all judged on what they did domestically [with the possible exception of mourinho[ long before they won the cl.
Jan 16, 2013 -- 7:06PM, mexicano wrote:
it wasn't the fact that they won the cl[a knock out comp] that made them the managers they are. those merits were achieved in domestic comps.they were all judged on what they did domestically [with the possible exception of mourinho[ long before they won the cl.
The CL is part of what has grown them their reputations - all of them without fail.
It is the one above all that Managers hold on their CV and the ones that have proved they can win it are the most sought after for that very reason.
It is the biggest trophy a manager can win but that doesnt mean to not win it you are a failure.
They might be expecting 3 European Cups in a row like the 1970s for all we know . Certainly there is a widespread view that he was the 2nd biggest factor after Messi in making Barcelona the best team anyone can remember . So maybe Bayern will expect him to get them near that level , which will be very difficult indeed.
Interesting to see how he does. Quite a few managers strike gold with the circumstances of their 1st jobs (Dalglish,Rijkaard) , build incredible teams , but then when you look back years later you wonder whether they were just in the right place at the right time as they struggle in several subsequent jobs.
If Vilanova can win the CL this year in the style of 2009/11 then Guardiola's cachet will be diminishing somewhat already, as people will say it was all about the players all along.
