Money going up straight after suspension

No one knows?

keep bets

eg , you back Inter @2.4 for tonight before kick off . But you want to lay off at a certain price in case they take the lead but concede a late equalizer

You could put up a lay @1.20  .Of course that is not going to be matched pre off so it will be shown as an unmatched bet

You then get the option of..

At In-Play:   Cancel[x]   Keep [ ]

The default is to cancel when the market suspends but if you change it to 'keep' then your money will still be there . So it went 1-1 after say 50 minutes when the market re-opened the 1.20 would still be there for anyone wanting to back it, not that anyone would .If it went 2-0 then the 1.20 would be there for a fraction of a second and someone would take it as Inter would drop to about 1.09

I'm aware you can set bets to 'keep' before games go inplay.

I'm saying putting a bet on whilst a game in inplay, and if a goal is scored bets lapse. There is no option to keep the bet inplay. With an 8 second delay how is money there within 2 seconds at MOST.

Also if it went 2-0 in your example, and someone took the bet in a fraction of a second how is that possible as there is X second delay (8 or 5 etc)

This is a very good question xoxo and a big mystery to me, too.

It is not keep bets but I have no idea how these bets come into the market so fast.

Yes , certainly money was up as soon as the suspend went in the At Madrid game just there!

Us Betfair Gold members dont have the time delays, its part of the premium account system

Not all money is cancelled after a suspension. All those pointless suspensions the money stays in the market but some people cancel as soon as it's suspended. Most annoying thing on here is those stupid suspensions. And they can cost me quite a bit of money.

The api is faster than the website, so while the suspend is still up on your screen, others have already submitted bets and the 8sec delay is ticking down for them.

We get the site preferential feed with the gold csrd/ promotional invitations.
I'm looking forward to meeting up with Marychain again at the Christmas do - hope the hamper is as good as last year.

One thing i've noticed Darlo is that these suspensions are not confined to Betfair. I often have Bet365 open at the same time and the suspensions are almost identical, the ball could be on the half way line with nowt happening and they both take the betting off/suspend at the same time. I've always wondered why this happens, anyone know?

third party feeds

Don't buy that, themover. Because while nonaynever is right and that the ball is on the halfway line but a quicker feed could mean the ball is in the back of the net, half the time, absolutely nothing of note happens for two minutes. Some of these suspends are pointless.

Last year's hamper was excellent lmfao, I hope we get more of those diamond Betfair cufflinks, my missus has lost one of mine

"I'm saying putting a bet on whilst a game in inplay, and if a goal is scored bets lapse. There is no option to keep the bet inplay."

1. Keep bets are kept after a goal, which can burn the unwitting badly until they realise this.
2. API allows you to keep/unkeep the bet at any time in play (when not suspended of course). In their wisdom betfair didn't put that ability on the web site though, which misleads people into thinking that keep bets only apply to keep bets over kick off, when the keep bet setting is very much there.

TheInvestor2, I once tried to submit bets through API (betangel)  (while the market was suspended) and the system didnt let me submit them until AFTER the suspension, so the bets were subject to the delay. Unless there is another way to submit them through API, which I dont know.

(I am not using API anymore)

marychain- you'r a fella?   ARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
i've a hazy memory of mistletoe and tounges after the wine port and brandy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xoxo 11 Nov 12 18:45 
I'm aware you can set bets to 'keep' before games go inplay.

I'm saying putting a bet on whilst a game in inplay, and if a goal is scored bets lapse. There is no option to keep the bet inplay. With an 8 second delay how is money there within 2 seconds at MOST.

Also if it went 2-0 in your example, and someone took the bet in a fraction of a second how is that possible as there is X second delay (8 or 5 etc)


On Bet Angel, you can place a bet during play and then change it to
keep.

Interesting replies. As for 365 and BF suspending at the same time, it is usually BetRadar who provide the data feed to both. I wasnt aware that API software could keep bets through goal-suspends.

I use Geeks Toy and there's no keep option once a match is in-play.

It's not really a joking matter. If using the site, or API, when a market forms after a goal, 99.99% of users appear to be 5-10 seconds behind our prices going up than others. I don't know how they do it. I think someone has written a program so that you can submit bets constantly and the bet checks at the last split second if the market is suspended, thus letting the prices hit the market immediately.

i.e. Say Madrid go 1-0 down after 10 mins. They kick off 1.3. As a user you can't submit a bet whilst suspended, the minute you press submit it checks to see if there is a suspension, if there is, it's voided. However I think someone has written a program which means they could lay 10k at 1.5 and it doesn't ask the market if it is suspended until the clock goes down to 0.

So the API removes the suspension a second or so quicker than normal interface, so it appears the market is formed instantly by someone who has written a program through the API. How they do it, I don't know.

i can place keep bets in play, ie AFTER kick off, using ibetmate on my iphone. Place the bet using any means (app, main site, AGT pro, whatever) then edit it on ibetmate and change status to 'keep'. You can do this also with AGT Pro but it doesn't always work for me and I can't check that it's a keep bet, so i just use ibetmate all the time as it never fails.

Most people think that this is not possible once the market turns in-play but that is a myth.

Darlo, I think with AGT you need to change all bets status to keep, ie all bets or none, and that is very risky as you have to keep an eye on every bet. With ibetmate you can do it on an individual basis

i often lay the draw in-play when the odds are below evens (around 75 mins) and then i place 'keep' bets to green up at say 7.2, 9.8, 12.5 and 15. As the game progresses i cancel them in order. So if it is the 88th minute, I know that the market will settle about 12.5 or 15, so i have cancelled the 7.2 and 9.8 by that stage. One the market unsuspends i get matched immediately.

Whilst bet persistence can account for some of the money surely the fact the market usually reforms to accurate prices by the time the market re-opens cannot all be down to the 'kept' money?

in the example above, my 12.5 bet will be up on the exchange at all times once i place it, quite often the first money that comes into the market will take my 12.5 and then the market will settle at 10/10.5, so i get a better price than everyone else. it's a great way of protecting against quick equalisers as well. they don't happen very often but when they do you feel like a complete mug for not getting out

Nov 12, 2012 -- 2:18PM, xoxo wrote:

Whilst bet persistence can account for some of the money surely the fact the market usually reforms to accurate prices by the time the market re-opens cannot all be down to the 'kept' money?

Read my posts. It's 100% not keep bets. That is a cretinous theory and obviously not true. I've told you what it is, but you've not absorbed this information.

as they say a team is most vulnerable to concede just after they score

xoxo, could it be the market makers that betfair use. i think they are allowed to place bets without delays??

Nov 12, 2012 -- 2:24PM, RMB © wrote:

Nov 12, 2012 --  2:18PM, xoxo wrote:Whilst bet persistence can account for some of the money surely the fact the market usually reforms to accurate prices by the time the market re-opens cannot all be down to the 'kept' money?Read my posts. It's 100% not keep bets. That is a cretinous theory and obviously not true. I've told you what it is, but you've not absorbed this information.

RMB: The question is whether or not the API allows bets to be submitted and the delay to countdown before checking if the market is suspended. Do you know that for a fact it is possible to do that?

For normal people:
Place Bet > IF MarketSuspended = Yes THEN PlaceBet = Cancel, IF MarketSuspended = No THEN PlaceBet = ConfirmBetCountdown.

For those with a specific program:
Place Bet > PlaceBet = ConfirmBetCountdown, IF MarketSuspended = Yes THEN PlaceBet = Cancel, IF MarketSuspended = No THEN PlaceBet = Confirm.


So the program counts the statutory clock down before hitting the market, meaning the moment the Suspension is lifted off the market, the bet's hit the market.

That's what I am saying. There are programme writers out there who can let the bet go through the countdown before asking if the market is suspended .:. hitting the market almost immediately after it is unsuspended (which given the normal interface sometimes delays a second or so moving the sign means it appears even before its unsuspended - but it actually is unsuspended for a few split seconds).

RMB: What makes you believe that the process of placing bets over the API is any different to the website?

It's not the API it's a specific program written available to whoever can find the program writer. You've answered your own questions. Money hits the market, at the right prices all the time. The market is made almost instantly therefore you already know someone can place bets almost immediately (well within the 5/8 second delay).

The program would have to access the BF API to place bets though, so why wouldn't it be subject to the same process?

I don't know. You'd need to ask Betfair. There's no harm in it, so no problem. The only annoying thing is that I'd like to do the same but have never found someone who can code it for me and I've asked directly who does it but no one answers.

You theory is certainly interesting, but I just cannot see why with the API you would be allowed to effectively beat the clock in place as the bet is subject to a different logical process. Have you got any evidence of this being the case because or is it speculation?

I´ve seen it a couple of times as well, with the API and refreshing every 0.3 seconds. Money is right there after unsuspend. Can only be betfair´s own money imo.

of course it's money of betfair. and some are from swedish company that has a deal with betfair on this. i can't believe that people are so ignorant here.

The players who use these keep bets know what the correct prices should be after the next goal is scored and ask for a premium on these prices.

A simple example would be,if a game between two equal teams is 0-0
and he knows the correct prices if a goal is scored in the next few minutes is 1.7,3.75 and 6.8.

He now offers 1.65 to lay and 7.4 to back each team and 3.95 to back the draw.These offers are then changed to "keep bets"

Since the average punters is not as well informed about what the correct prices should be there is always a chance that some of his
offers will be taken before the market settles down.

JML: And if a goal goes the other way they lose their money?

ALEX: Any proof of this?


All these theories could be true but it seems they are all speculation around a subject very few people know the truth about...

xoxo- just think a little before replying.

Take another example -- the current prices are 1.42,5,11.

He knows that if the outsider scores the prices will be 2.2,3.4,and 4.

he places 2.3 to back the fav,3.2 to lay the draw and 3.8 to lay the
outsider.

Please explain how he loses money if the favourite scores and not the
outsider.

JML: I understand now, I should've paid more attention to your original post. It would seem that this is the most feasable theory out of those already suggested. Do you use this method yourself?

These bets are not keep bets. As an example yesterday during the Feyenoord vs Roda match, the Under 6.5 market was 1.06/1.07 when the first goal was scored.

Instantly after the (lengthy) suspend the price was 1.14/1.15. These can not be keep bets, as you can not lay higher than current price and not be matched.

Betfair does not accept bets when the market is suspended so the only way that money can be there instantly is by bypassing the countdown. The only one who can do this is Betfair or perhaps one of its partners as Alexander mentions.

well then it must be betfair's market makers doing it

I have just checked a few games on Fracsoft and could not find a single
example of what Retired Specialist says.

1. The money are not coming from the swedish company, it is easy to identify their bets and it is not them beating the clock
2. It could be betfairs own market makers but the money are sometimes only some pennies here and there that it makes me think that there are more than one punters being able to do this.
3.What JML suggest is possible to do but it is not what we are talking about. In JML exempel it is indeed possible to come early with money backing the favorite but there is no point doing it. What the guys beating the clock are doing is to LAY the favorite at slightly higher prices after the outsider scores and that is what you CANNOT do with JML suggestion.
4. These bets are certainly not keep bets, Retired Specialist and RMB have made some good points.
5. If there are people beating the clock after the suspension through an API programm, who says they dont beat clock in-running as well?

teo813: How can you identify the Swedish company's bets easily?

I come back to the point that surely all bets, whatever channel they're placed through (mobile, API, website etc.) must go through the same process before confirmation so it seems very strange that there may be a method of beating the clock.

They use to lay/back both outcomes, not only one of them, and they often send 10000sek bets (8600e, 8000sterlines) with 5-10 tick spread, operating as a market maker in-running.
I just dont think its them.

I've closely examined the Swansea v West Ham game which was a live
premership game on 25 August.

The first suspension was 13.05.21 when Swansea scored.

The prices were (Swansea,West Ham,Draw.) 2.28 4 3.2.

The next lot of prices appear at 13.06.08.

On the back side you have 2.26(£20) 2(£3) and 3.2(£386) On the lay side 2.4(£7) 4.5(£3) and 3.65(£13)

It's not until 13.06.15 that new bets reach the market and the total matched changes from what it was before suspension.

Nothing at all suspicious and the 3 prices I've underlined prove that they are offered by normal punters.

I agree with teo. It's not the Swedish company as you can spot their money in patterns i.e. spread between back and lay & bet sizes. We definitely deserve answers and clarification from Betfair on this subject. We can't all keep our head in the sand. It's often a few people, so we deserve to definitively know:

- who is allowed to beat the clock on the re-opening of the markets AND
- is everyone allowed AND if they are, how do you go about doing it

I'm surprised that you felt the need to highlight such rubbish in bold.

There is absolutely no evidence that anyone is beating the clock.

This thread is simply about "kept bets"

Everyone on Betfair has the ability to place kept bets including
yourself.

If Betfair was a true p2p exchange, as it should be, there ought to be no mysteries or secrets, everything should be totally out in the open. It most certainly isn't, and the model as it set out to be no longer exists. A great shame, but alas greed wins as usual.

Anyone who thinks it's keep bets JML is either not very bright, or privy to forming the market quicker than others and thus trying to rubbish hard evidence that it's going on (and has been for years). Please refrain from contributing from this thread if you're suggesting it's keep bets. Money hitting the market is 100% new (i.e. not in a Keep Bet queue) before the SUSPEND sign is lifted and well within the 8 second market delay open re-opening.

I've posted on General Betting too, maybe someone there knows.

I've provided plenty of evidence on this thread that what I say is correct.

You've provided nothing but wild allegations.

Find a single example on Fracsoft to back up your claims.

For example--find a single example where the "total matched"

changes between the suspension and within 5 seconds of the market

being unsuspended.

betfair never will inform you about this subject. they told you propably that are just traders with api.

JML, give it a break ffs, if you want to contribute pls do some research and you will find that what RMB and the others are saying is 100% correct.

It seems that the ones that are 100% correct like RMB and yourself
are the only ones unable to back it up with any evidence.

My 19.15 post proves that I'm the only one that has done some research.

What research have you done?

No time to answer to you right now, I will come back later.

I've done some more research.

In 2009 "keep bets" were unavailable on corect score markets and when
they came back from suspension they were completely blank whilst all
the other main markets, which offered keep bets, did not.

I think that proves that the bets in question are keep bets.

Is this not bots money? Because a bot won't have to sit there and wait for the suspend sign to be lifted, it will automatically know when the market is unsuspended and start its 8/5-second timer immediately.

Real vs Dortmund,  Real were approx. 1.45 to win.
Dortmund leads 0-1, money coming  laying Real 1.55-1.65 directly after the release of the suspension sign.
This CANNOT be done with the keep bets option JML, do you agree with that? That is why we disagree with you.

jml has no idea about what happen  here but the problem with him is that he is offensive on us.

He will be nice as soon as he realises the real problem (at least I hope so )

Back in 2009 it was a real trading, when there were no betfair money in my opinion. If you have traded long enough on betfair you would definately get the difference and no evidence on paper is needed to prove this. In the past years strange things started to happen with markets, one of them is what everyone describes here. Other thing that happens frequently is when you try to back at 1.2 with 100 for example and there are 2000 on the market, during the 8 sec delay suddenly all the money dissapear and move to 1.19 market, forcing you to back at lower odds. Some of you will say that this is regular trading, but this happens quite often to be just trading. All this proves to me that betfair has traders who watch the money coming to the markets and trade accordingly without the delay.

That sounds more like simple ramping rather than betting without delay though I'm not sure.

alex_4554 12 Nov 12 21:12 Joined: 23 Apr 11 | Topic/replies: 24 | Blogger: alex_4554's blog
Back in 2009 it was a real trading, when there were no betfair money in my opinion. If you have traded long enough on betfair you would definately get the difference and no evidence on paper is needed to prove this. In the past years strange things started to happen with markets, one of them is what everyone describes here. Other thing that happens frequently is when you try to back at 1.2 with 100 for example and there are 2000 on the market, during the 8 sec delay suddenly all the money dissapear and move to 1.19 market, forcing you to back at lower odds. Some of you will say that this is regular trading, but this happens quite often to be just trading. All this proves to me that betfair has traders who watch the money coming to the markets and trade accordingly without the delay.

I completely agree with that statement. Its the obvious excuse for a lot of the things going on with the exchange including hoovering and money coming onto the markets quickly after a suspend. Free money for betfair. Its their edge over the user bots and traders.

If someone wants to become a betfair trader :) http://betfair.jobs/job-search-and-apply?jvi=oj2QWfwR,Job&jvk=Job

alex_4554
" forcing you to back at lower odds"

Nobody is forced to take the lower price

Nov 12, 2012 -- 9:42PM, SPOT THE DOG wrote:

alex_4554" forcing you to back at lower odds"Nobody is forced to take the lower price

Correct! Let's say it other way: Leaving you no other option if you want to be matched quickly in play.

Real vs Dortmund,  Real were approx. 1.45 to win.
Dortmund leads 0-1, money coming  laying Real 1.55-1.65 directly after the release of the suspension sign.
This CANNOT be done with the keep bets option JML, do you agree with that? That is why we disagree with you.


I'm not sure what you are talking about because you mention "money coming".

This thread is about money already there after suspension.

I doubt that Real Madrid were 1.45 when Dortmund scored in the 28th
minute because that's exactly the price I backed them before the off.

Obviously I agree that you can't have keep bets laying at higher odds.

If you think something suspicious happened you can follow the market
on Fracsoft and provide us with second by second detail of your concern.

money coming=money already there after susp

RMB,

I have coded algorithms to fire bets into the markets as quickly as possible following suspends, and I can tell you that the sort of algorithm you're suggesting is just not possible, API or not. The Betfair server doesn't accept any bet placement requests while the market is unsuspended. And the 5/8 second delay is applied from the moment that the bet request hits the server (unless, unbeknownst to me, they allow some special individual/group to bypass this restriction).

What I suspect is happening here is that the website, and possibly also other third party API services like BetAngel/Gruss, are sometimes slow to display the true SUSPENDED/ACTIVE status of the market. This can happen, even with the third party services, if the 'Getmarketstatus' calls made by those programs to Betfair's server return corrupt information. So some programs are able to submit bets from the instant that the market is truly unsuspended, even though the website and other services are still displaying the status as unsuspended.

**** should read ". . doesn't accept any bet placement requests while the market is SUSPENDED."

ive wondered this myself before, literally within second 1-2 or market unsuspending there's money there albeit not much and garbage odds..but yea how?!

people think its keep bets?!

Nov 12, 2012 -- 9:41PM, alex_4554 wrote:

If someone wants to become a betfair trader :) http://betfair.jobs/job-search-and-apply?jvi=oj2QWfwR,Job&jvk=Job

That's a new one on me. I'm so bloody naive.

I agree with that contrarian. I've always suspected it's just software and/or connection delays.

Test

Cheers Contrarian.

Contrarian, that was my point regarding the process bets go through upon placement.

We all know if you're not logged in and refresh the odds, they refresh at a much slower rate than if you are logged in. Could it all be down to the delay in the site vs a lesser delay with the API? Surely it's not several seconds slower?

yes, it is sometimes several seconds slower, that's the whole point.

It is possible to get money straight up after a suspension. There are some side markets I trade in which are not suspended like other markets. Money is cleared but it's immediately reopened and if you don't notice you won't even know it's suspended. Anyway, I've noticed that while my money is cleared during these ghost suspends, other money remains in the system and/or is placed back without any 8-second delay.