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buzzer
07 Nov 12 09:01
Joined:
Date Joined: 05 Jun 04
| Topic/replies: 20,192 | Blogger: buzzer's blog
Betfair Group plc
7 November 2012

UPDATE ON GERMANY

As previously indicated, in July 2012 Germany introduced a law that applies a 5% tax on stakes on sports betting in the country. A tax at this rate, if applicable, would make Betfair's current exchange model unviable. Following detailed opinions provided by its legal and tax advisors, Betfair believes that, in regard to bets placed on its exchange, it is not an organiser of sports betting under the tax law and is not, therefore, liable for the tax.

Betfair has been working with the relevant tax authorities to seek clarification on interpretation of the law and its applicability to exchanges. The company is disappointed, however, that to date the tax authorities have not been able to agree to an interpretation of the law that would allow Betfair to continue to offer the exchange product. Consequently, Betfair has decided to withdraw its exchange product from the German market.

Following this decision, on-going contribution from Germany is expected to be de minimis and Betfair is reviewing its operations in this market. In FY12, approximately 4% of Core Betfair revenue came from Germany and this revenue delivered a contribution of approximately £6 million before the allocation of central costs.

The company believes that it has fulfilled all of its obligations under German law, including the filing of necessary tax returns. Discussions are continuing with tax authorities regarding the potential tax liability, if any, arising from bets placed on its exchange since the law came into effect.
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Report mesmerised November 7, 2012 12:06 PM GMT
Report kirilkach November 7, 2012 12:09 PM GMT
I did not clearly understand - germans cannot bet in Betfair or we all cannot bet on german markets?
Report Biscuit1979 November 7, 2012 12:12 PM GMT
Germans can't use betfair
Report Dirkules November 7, 2012 12:13 PM GMT
i need a adress in UK......someone know where i can get a postbox? :D
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 12:14 PM GMT
Germans cannot use the exchange anymore, only fixed odds betting allowed, and the odds in these markets are often even worse than on bwin! Angry
You should be able bet on german markets in the future, questin is: how much liquidity will there be?

yeah me too, cheap po box or sth. like that!
Report kirilkach November 7, 2012 12:14 PM GMT
So sorry for you guysCryCryCryCryCry
Report kirilkach November 7, 2012 12:16 PM GMT
How betfair will restrict: by credit card addres or IP addres?
Report Dirkules November 7, 2012 12:17 PM GMT
i think your adress....otherwise it will be no problem
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 12:19 PM GMT
I don't know, will wait and see...
Report dlarssonf November 7, 2012 12:21 PM GMT
prele_     07 Nov 12 10:54 
I guess it's time to move on to another Betting Exchange then. But I might use this forum anyways.


do you honestly think that the law will apply to only betfair? , the law will apply to any exchange wanting to do business with germany
Report Biscuit1979 November 7, 2012 12:23 PM GMT
There are ways round it, i can think of at least 3 forumites on here who live in Spain and betfair is banned there too (i think)
Report prele_ November 7, 2012 12:25 PM GMT

Nov 7, 2012 -- 12:21PM, dlarssonf wrote:


prele_     07 Nov 12 10:54  I guess it's time to move on to another Betting Exchange then. But I might use this forum anyways.do you honestly think that the law will apply to only betfair? , the law will apply to any exchange wanting to do business with germany


The question is, if the others will also stop their German campaign because of a law or if the keep doing it. Well, time for a friend to open an account for me maybe

Report hippie November 7, 2012 12:28 PM GMT
You can't get a P.O. box if you don't live in the UK.

You need to be searching for a "mailing address" and away from London to keep the cost down.

A friend would be an even better solution.
Report kirilkach November 7, 2012 12:29 PM GMT
When I was in USA 10 years ago where betting is forbiden I bet in GLOBET with my Bulgarian debit card, so IP addres does not mean anything
Report dlarssonf November 7, 2012 12:32 PM GMT
lol^^^
Report Whisperingdeath November 7, 2012 12:32 PM GMT
I am not a computer geek but cant you bet via some proxy server?
Report Johnny_Mustang November 7, 2012 12:34 PM GMT
I go to France a fair bit and can't even log in to this site when I'm there.
Report hippie November 7, 2012 12:34 PM GMT
you don't know who you're giving very sensitive information to using a proxy server.

A VPN is the safer option (The server has to be in the UK).
Report Whisperingdeath November 7, 2012 12:34 PM GMT
p.s. I dont know what a proxy server is either!


in reply to another poster can we start getting debit cards from other countries? Would that help too?
Report kirilkach November 7, 2012 12:37 PM GMT
Ill give you a debit card only for 5% of your withdrawnWink
Report Whisperingdeath November 7, 2012 12:38 PM GMT
Right hippie,

My mate in computers mentioned something similar. I wouldn't know my vpn / proxy server from my elbow



As a matter of interest how is that set up /cost? I am interested in doing that when I am in USA although I do remember being able to access Betfair from mobile but not pc in USA.
Report hippie November 7, 2012 12:43 PM GMT
A proxy server is basically getting information from A to B via C and for all you know C is a scammer in China that you are handing passwords, bank details etc to.

A VPN is a secure link that "tunnels" you to a server. You need the server to be in the UK to avoid the block. You're better off doing your own research to find a suitable VPN and to get comfortable with what it all means.
Report Whisperingdeath November 7, 2012 12:49 PM GMT
Thanks hippie,

I get the gist of it.  I now know what to ask for.  I will email my geek for advice.

As a point of interest now I will also seek to find out if it is illegal to bet via betfair using a vpn whilst in the USA!  Could I be sent to Guantanamo for doing so?
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 12:53 PM GMT
I still don't get what the hell a BRITISH company has to care about non EU-conform gambling and tax laws in Germany?
Report hippie November 7, 2012 12:57 PM GMT
I think it could be illegal but you would have a strong case of your humans rights being violated if they waterboarded you for having a tenner on Hertha Berlin to beat FSV Frankfurt.

Alternatively, Colarado and Washington legalised the recreational use of marijuana in ballots last night.
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:04 PM GMT
Friday Bundesliga 2: SV Sandhausen - Hertha BSC Berlin:

Odds @ Betfair: Sandhausen 5.0, Draw 3.4, Hertha 1.6
Odds @ bwin: Sandhausen 4.8, Draw 3.5, Hertha 1.7

???? Is this a joke ????
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:04 PM GMT
Fixed odds
Report Whisperingdeath November 7, 2012 1:07 PM GMT
yes, I visit Colorado sometimes.

Deeply ironic that in the land of the free and the home of the brave I could escape the long arm of the law for smoking a McCartney filterless yet be given an orange boilersuit and an upside down ironing board with running water for trying to make an honest deutchmark.
Report prele_ November 7, 2012 1:12 PM GMT
haha^
Report Johnny_Mustang November 7, 2012 1:21 PM GMT
Can you bet in-play on bwin xgurkx?
Report colonelll November 7, 2012 1:29 PM GMT
test
Report colonelll November 7, 2012 1:30 PM GMT
a question for the germans, do you pay the 5% tax on stake wehn betting on the exchange
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:34 PM GMT
Johnny, I never bet on bwin, just use it for streams and fast updates. When betting at a booki I use 365.

colonelli, no, and that's the main point as aI read as the spirit of a betting exchange does not include the one bettors to pay the 5% tax and the others don't. Can't see how Betfair could handle/solve this problem.
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 1:34 PM GMT
Betfair should charge German customers more commission to pay the taxes and/or scrap the funding of the new site to retain the revenue from these customers.
Report edy November 7, 2012 1:39 PM GMT
The German tax dudes are saying they want 5% of the revenue (not just on your final winnings on a market) as far as I understand. That's....basically inapplicable.
Report colonelll November 7, 2012 1:40 PM GMT
oky xgurkx, what about on the fixed odds site from betfair? do you pay the 5% rate with the fixed odds
Report edy November 7, 2012 1:40 PM GMT
or on the stakes rather.
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 1:42 PM GMT
German customers need to take it up with the local politician then, because it seems like a law which has not been properly devised.
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:45 PM GMT
We (bettors) have no lobby! If I'd be a addicted casinoplayer they'd be happy to take my money!
Report edy November 7, 2012 1:46 PM GMT
The law has been made in a way by those very same politicians with the simple aim of re-monopolizing the lottery and sportsbetting market into the hands of our federal states.

It was the same in france. On surface they're saying: "hey hey, we open the market and just want some taxes that belong to us" when in fact it was made in an unfair and impractical way towards the betting sites and exchanges on purpose.
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:49 PM GMT
The exchange is FINISHED in germany maybe for a loooong time Cry
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:49 PM GMT
But hey, can't lose any more money on Manchester ****! Devil
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:50 PM GMT
S h i t t y
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 1:53 PM GMT
Of course, you know you can move anywhere in the EU if you want to, there are plenty of countries which are not so money-grabbing.
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 1:54 PM GMT
its a restriction based on locale not nationality
Report teo813 November 7, 2012 1:55 PM GMT
Come to greece, betfair will be able to operate until 1-1-2013 LaughCryCryCryCryCryLaugh
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 1:58 PM GMT
I think it's enough that my tax money is in greece, no need for me to go there too Devil
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 2:02 PM GMT
I am sure Betfair have an argument against this being an anti-free market law too.
Report phila November 7, 2012 2:05 PM GMT
That's democracy ... more and more restrictions.I love trading on betfair, seems that I need a new hobby in future. Or move to GB,but the weather is even worse there than in Germany.
Report frizli November 7, 2012 2:19 PM GMT
How is it possible that German law should apply to a British company? And even if it applies why is it not feasible to pay those 5% to the government every time you make a deposit?
Report Johnny_Mustang November 7, 2012 2:51 PM GMT
"I think it's enough that my tax money is in greece, no need for me to go there too "

LaughLaugh
Report buzzer November 7, 2012 3:19 PM GMT
(Reuters) - Betfair Group Plc (BETF.L) has withdrawn its online sports betting exchange in Germany, blaming a 5 percent turnover tax for making its main product unviable in Europe's largest economy.

Other British-listed gambling companies have also cried foul over a tax levied in Germany on stakes on sports events from July 2012.


Companies in the growing online gambling market complain of a patchwork of different regulatory regimes and tax systems across continental Europe. They are focusing their expansion efforts on those countries where there are clear rules and less onerous tax regimes.

Betfair, which launched 12 years ago and operates an exchange system that allows gamblers to bet against each other rather than the bookmaker, argued it should not have to pay the German tax.

Germany is a relatively small part of its business, accounting for around 4 percent of core revenue in its last financial year.

"The company is disappointed that to date the tax authorities have not been able to agree to an interpretation of the law that would allow Betfair to continue to offer the exchange product," Betfair said on Wednesday.

"Consequently, Betfair has decided to withdraw its exchange product from the German market," it added.

Betfair said contributions from Germany would be minimal following the withdrawal of the product. Besides the sports betting exchange, it also offers poker, casino and more traditional fixed-odds betting there.

Betfair shares initially opened lower but recouped the losses to trade 1.8 percent higher at 765p by 1020 GMT.

Analyst Nick Batram of brokerage Peel Hunt said he had already factored a German withdrawal into his forecasts after previous statements from the company.

"We believe that there is the potential to create a much leaner and meaner business, with the unique exchange platform at the core," said Batram, who has a "buy" rating on the stock.

William Hill (WMH.L), Britain's largest bookmaker, said it no longer offered any kind of service to German residents because of the tax situation.

"We remain licensed in Spain and Italy, and have recently developed a Swedish language website and started advertising in print and broadcast media there," spokeswoman Kate Miller said.

Bwin.party (BPTY.L), the world's largest online gaming group, said last week that the German tax had contributed to a decline in revenue in the third quarter.

Bwin has amended its business model in Germany, its largest market, by no longer accepting very short-odds bets on sports events there.
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 7, 2012 6:23 PM GMT
Betfair, and bookies, should respond by refusing to sponsor or provide funding to any event based in Germany or from which some of the profit will go to Germany - and other countries that have similar laws.
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 6:38 PM GMT
how much time we have ?
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 7:09 PM GMT
2 days  then it´s off Devil
Report betfire November 7, 2012 7:23 PM GMT
its only exchange bets n they can still bet on fixed odds??
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 7:24 PM GMT
only exchange bets ?


who gives a **** about the fixed odds **** ?
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:39 PM GMT
As said and proven above, they're worse than BWIN! BWIN!!!!!!! You know what THAT means????
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:40 PM GMT
And I'm on 365 for the near future! So it's again beat the bookies like I started with betting 7 or 8 years ago Sad
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:41 PM GMT
I don't need Betfair with such crap odds and without the exchange!
Report colonelll November 7, 2012 7:42 PM GMT

Nov 7, 2012 -- 7:40PM, xGURKx wrote:


And I'm on 365 for the near future! So it's again beat the bookies like I started with betting 7 or 8 years ago


dont you pay 5% per stake? it is already difficult to beat the bookies margin let alone additional 5%

Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:43 PM GMT
No 365 doesn't have the 5% tax... let's see how long Sad
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:43 PM GMT
I'm sure they'll also invent it sooner or later
Report iamhewho November 7, 2012 7:47 PM GMT
we need betfair in more country's not less ffs

its bad enough i cant winter in spain cos they wont have it

now i cant even summer in germany , ive relatives there aswell ffsSad
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 7:52 PM GMT
I'm really P I S S E D today, my favourite markets were CS and laying some of them, this sucks and it makes me really SICK!
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 7:57 PM GMT
me too gurk

another reason is , wtf has bf to rush all this 2 days before they close in germany they give a announcement ?

just wait till atleast next year .
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 8:03 PM GMT
but we can use ****q i read on a nother forum
whats the logic of this ?
Report taffkoi November 7, 2012 8:03 PM GMT
Vergesst die Festpeis Quoten, egal bei welchem Wettanbieter, ihr könnt die auf lange Sicht nicht schlagen. Und falls ihr doch mal länger und viel dort gewinnt werdet ihr limitiert oder ausgeschlossen.
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 8:04 PM GMT
haha yeah but did you check the liquidity over there?
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 8:07 PM GMT
das ist das große Problem, Auswandern geht nicht, mache das ja nur als "Hobby" und wollte mir ne gute Bank aufbauen, kann ich jetzt alles in die Tonne kloppen, bis sich diese Idioten mal wieder besinnen, wenn überhaupt. Ausländische (Schein-)Adresse? So schnell schaust gar nicht kriegen sie dich irgendwann wegen "Geldwäschegesetz" dran. Alles in allem schaut's sehr mies aus.
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 8:08 PM GMT
yes i know there is zero liquidity

or was bf again too greedy ?
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 8:10 PM GMT
No, too cowardly!
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 8:20 PM GMT
Ja das mit dem Auswandern usw ist ja blödsinn , aber gerade als es sich richtig bezahlt gemacht hat für mich, machen die zu. war schon kein hobby mehr .Die letzten 2 monate fast 20 k und diesen monat auch schon über 3+...

verstehe bloß nicht warum das alles wieder so schnell gehen musste

und du glaubst ja nicht das bf sich da soviele mühe machen wird zurückzukommen sobald sie einmal raus sind aus deutschland
Report taffkoi November 7, 2012 8:30 PM GMT
hi ew7, bei deinem 20k Gewinn , hast du da auf Glück gebaut oder war hast du eine Strategie?
Report E.W.7 November 7, 2012 8:36 PM GMT
nä bin schon länger dabei hier

würde es nicht als glück bezeichnen eher kalkuliertes risiko ( staking plan)

habe eigentlich keine richtige strategie mache aber sehr viel pre match trading usw
Report xGURKx November 7, 2012 8:38 PM GMT
ja bei den Beträgen würd ich da grad mal richtig das Kotzen bekommen!
Report Danyo November 8, 2012 2:10 AM GMT
ich werd wohl auch zu bet365 gehen müssen fürs erste... aber die 5% kommen da auch sehr schnell, da bin ich mir sicher.
bleibt ihr dem forum erhalten? oder gründen wir unser eigenes? Silly
Report RitzyDelandro November 8, 2012 7:28 AM GMT
All you need is an address in the UK (or another region exchanges are not banned). You can still access the site from anywhere as ip address is not important. You can deposit/withdraw using moneybookers or similar. Its pretty easy to get proof of address to satisfy betfair when you open the account. I live in Hong Kong (where all gambling is banned except with the state owned bookmakers) and i have no major issues using betfair. You just need to be creative.
Report Biscuit1979 November 8, 2012 10:49 AM GMT
xGURKx 07 Nov 12 19:40 
And I'm on 365 for the near future! So it's again beat the bookies like I started with betting 7 or 8 years ago





The problem here of course is if you start winning youll soon have your account closed by them.

As for the liquidity at betd a q if all germans start using it, then it will obviously improve.
Report xGURKx November 8, 2012 11:51 AM GMT
As for betd a q, if BF states that only 4% of customers are german, then I don't see how liquidity over at the purple place could increase that much that it could be worth even having a look over there!

@ Danyo: weiß jetzt auch noch nicht, 365 wohl vorerst ne Möglichkeit für mich aber wie gesagt, gewinnt man da, sperren die einen recht schnell. Andere Möglichkeiten wären die Asia Bookies aber damit hab ich 0,00 Erfahrung!
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 8, 2012 12:18 PM GMT
No, 4% of revenue is from German customers.
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 8, 2012 12:18 PM GMT
isnt that what they said?
Report phila November 8, 2012 12:55 PM GMT
Can't imagine that it's only 4 % , Germany is one of the biggest markets in Europe ?

@germans: Weiß jemand ,ob Zweitsitz in Luxemburg was bringt, bzw. ob da Exchange erlaubt ist?
Report Danyo November 8, 2012 4:09 PM GMT
I feel like I've lost my job now. And betting at the bookies makes me feel so naked and vulnerable.... totally no control over my stake Cry

theoretical question: if I find a friend from another country to register for me and verify with his documents... would it help to just add a new email adress to my old moneybookers account (different name obviously) and link it with the new account, or does the friend need to set up a new moneybookers account as well to go with the betfair account?
Report xGURKx November 9, 2012 9:22 AM GMT
@ Danyo, das mit Moneybookers würde ich nicht machen, so wie man hörst stehen sämtliche Online-Wallets unter erheblichem Druck wegen dem Geldwäschegesetz, und 3x darfst du raten, welche EU Regierung da wohl am meisten Druck ausübt? Lies doch einfach mal im größten deutschen Forum rum, stehen einige Tips ür die Zukunft drin, wie man was handhaben könnte.
Report Danyo November 9, 2012 11:45 AM GMT
ich nutze aber jetzt auch schon die ganze Zeit Moneybookers... und die damit verknüpfte Kreditkarte für Auszahlungen. Geht immer flott und easy... und auch in meinen Urlaubsländern :D
Welches Forum meinst du? das größte deutsche BF Forum?
Report xGURKx November 9, 2012 11:56 AM GMT
Solang das dein eigenes Konto ist ja, aber rumtricksen mit Adressen etc. würd ich da nicht!
Report Bruce Willis November 9, 2012 1:24 PM GMT
To all the Deutsch landers, Move to EngerrrLand to continue using Betfair.
We welcome you with open arms Grin Love
Report xGURKx November 9, 2012 1:29 PM GMT
Laugh
Report Danyo November 9, 2012 2:06 PM GMT
To Engerrrrland I only fly with Messerschmidt Airlines Cool
Report Bruce Willis November 9, 2012 2:09 PM GMT
I have a few spare rooms to rent in my mansion

Apply within
Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 9, 2012 2:14 PM GMT

Nov 9, 2012 -- 1:24PM, Bruce Willis wrote:


To all the Deutsch landers, Move to EngerrrLand to continue using Betfair.We welcome you with open arms


wouldnt count on it!

Report Srichaphan or Ancic? November 9, 2012 2:14 PM GMT
Come on guys, you can get around it if you need to. If you have to use bookies, spread your money around instead of lumping it on one bet.
Report xGURKx November 9, 2012 4:17 PM GMT
Fixed odds not even inplay Cry

Betfair now officially useless... Cool
Report Chief_Inspector_Wiggum November 9, 2012 4:30 PM GMT
?
Report themuppet3 November 9, 2012 4:40 PM GMT
Bruce Willis 09 Nov 12 14:09 Joined: 27 Jul 10 | Topic/replies: 5,866 | Blogger: Bruce Willis's blog
I have a few spare rooms to rent in my mansion

Apply within


What are your rates for lodgers?  2 bums a week?
Report Bruce Willis November 9, 2012 5:51 PM GMT
50 Deutsch Mark
Report xGURKx November 9, 2012 5:52 PM GMT
I could give you 1 Billion Reichsmark if interested Laugh
Report hejik November 9, 2012 6:17 PM GMT

Nov 9, 2012 -- 2:06PM, Danyo wrote:


To Engerrrrland I only fly with Messerschmidt Airlines


And people say the English are obsessed with the past.
If you think that's funny you're a moron

Report Danyo November 10, 2012 6:06 AM GMT
mega funny Excited
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